Artists in our community

Guest · #1

Your cover story on "artists of resistance" is interesting. Unfortunately, in our community the only artists we have are con-artists posing as "royalty". The real artists, if any, are too weak and timid to speak up. Will the real artists in the community please stand up?

Guest · #2

... I read the story too, excellent work n soo sensible, to put it up here...(i pasted part of it on outlookindia.com/ free speech forum) It didn't occured 2 me that a stupid community like the dawoodi Bohras are that capable... (here in India they could be called 'ever farting, over weight, ugly, jaahil baboons... ah i forgot, ever stinking too, since they bath once a week, water is scarce n soap cost money...lol)...them artist/ writers/ poet... u kiddin... u can't get anywhere with Imam this n Imam that, daaee this n daaii that... petty dukaandaars, clever but ignorant... naagar brahmin chhoti sambha... as legend says... b'cpz of FGM half the bohri 2 million population, the slaves, abde sayed'na (I call him a common thug)... n he is not 90 yet, he is 88 (still a ghanoo jivoo (2) or ghanoo jeedoo (2)... meaning lived enuff...

, that is ur stupid calendar... 355 days a year... lol... 11-12 days shorter than Georgian one...yesterday was his B-Day... n the morons were beating their chest... on a birthday... lol... such bankruptsy of thinking... i put cotton in me ears... closed all the windows n yet it was ears splitting noise, some of it from Lundon... huh... got an headach... n had to leave the home... away from the maddning noise... 8-10 hours a day of petty dukaandaari, than instead of 15-20 minutes of food at home... 2 hours of community meals... (the idea is to keep the baboons busy enuff so that they don't read write stuff... 2 get enlightened... and b) the effing maatam is... like drawing a bigger line, to make the other one.. without touching, in other words... what if u r hungry for 2 days... the other bugger died thirsty... u feel u r lucky... lol... Or if he is such a big hero, who wouldn't compromise, to do any khayanat in naana's amaanat... he wouldn't budge... he could have budged... later to say that it was done by force n hence invald succession... but rather sacrificed his life... while the his worshippers open their pants... every effing now n then. get it?I ain't just a writer, a poet, but almost ready to start me own effing religion... there ain't no god... if no effing leaf move with his command or wishes... then how come the roofs fall on flag holding/ sleeping kids... and even the jaahil of the jaahil understands... when i explain... deep down their god is almost dead... it has long been dead... Asghar Ali Engineer is another side of the same coin, he is a theologian, n that is his dhanda, n identity n the rest... I asked him his stand on Female Circumcission (FGM), removing of Clitoris... he wouldn't respond, neither this board maasters... the progressive or reformist or whatever... (could it be pretenders)... u all r no progressive 2 me, Ghaalib was wrong when he said... bas ke dushwaar he har kaam ka aasaaN hona/ Aur aadami ko bhi mayyasar nahiN insaaN hona. Aadmi... most of the people, almost all... are baboons... they r not even aadmi as yet... n i wonder when these baboons get transformed into INSAAN...

Guest · #3

ah no room for editing... read half of 2 million bohris... are female eunachs... as Germain Greer would call it... the FGM guys...Come you masters of war You that build all the guns You that build the death planes You that build the big bombs You that hide behind walls You that hide behind desks I just want you to know I can see through your masksYou that never done nothin' But build to destroy You play with my world Like it's your little toy You put a gun in my hand And you hide from my eyes And you turn and run farther When the fast bullets flyLike Judas of old You lie and deceive A world war can be won You want me to believe But I see through your eyes And I see through your brain Like I see through the water That runs down my drainYou fasten the triggers For the others to fire Then you set back and watch When the death count gets higher You hide in your mansion As young people's blood Flows out of their bodies And is buried in the mudYou've thrown the worst fear That can ever be hurled Fear to bring children Into the world For threatening my baby Unborn and unnamed You ain't worth the blood That runs in your veinsHow much do I know To talk out of turn You might say that I'm young You might say I'm unlearned But there's one thing I know Though I'm younger than you Even Jesus would never Forgive what you doLet me ask you one question Is your money that good Will it buy you forgiveness Do you think that it could I think you will find When your death takes its toll All the money you made Will never buy back your soulAnd I hope that you die And your death'll come soon I will follow your casket In the pale afternoon And I'll watch while you're lowered Down to your deathbed And I'll stand o'er your grave 'Til I'm sure that you're dead.

Guest · #4

Amazed, now you are definitely on stuff that's gonna screw up your primitive little brain, hermano!See, that's why parents need to control what their children watch and sniff........this is what eventually happens when there is no parental control over kids, such as Amazed. I mean, there is no ceiling for stupidity, I guess......and everyday, people like Amazed never cease to AMAZE me!And then there are other entertaining characters such as HUMSAFAR. "Will the real artists in the community please stand up?" Hilarious!!!Where did you hear that, bro! Anyone who doesn't agree with ya are now "too weak and timid to speak up." Dude, here's some advice for ya: GET A LIFE!

Guest · #5

Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion." -- Democritus "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away". -- Philip K. Dick"And the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." -- T. S. Eliot"The average man does not know what to do with his life, yet wants another one which will last forever." -- Anatole France"There is no sadder sight in the world than to see a beautiful theory killed by a brutal fact." -- Thomas Huxley"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delo McKown"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." -- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, 1844-1900, "The Dawn" (1881)"The point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem worth stating, and to end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it." -- Bertrand Russell, "The Philosophy of Logical Atomism"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Religion - mainly humourous quotes: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If I were not an atheist I think I would have to be a Catholic because if it wasn't the forces of natural selection that designed fish, it must have been an Italian." -- Douglas Adams, "Riding the Rays" "The MIT Science Fiction society keeps a Bible in their comprehensive collection, as an anthology filed (by editor's last name) under 'G'." -- David Mix Barrington"If Jesus had been killed 20 years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses." -- Lenny Bruce"Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martydom meaningless by not committing them?" -- Jules Feiffer"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." -- Butch Hancock"What do atheists scream when they come?" -- Bill HicksQuestion: "Mr. Haldane, what can you tell about the Creator from your study of biology?" Answer: "The Creator, if He exists, has a special preference for beetles." -- J. B. S. Haldane, 1892-1964, Report of lecture, 7 April 1951 in Journal of the British Interplanetary Society (1951) vol. 10, p. 156"There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages." -- Richard Lederer, Anguished English"If Jesus was a Jew, why did he have a Spanish name?" -- Bill Maher on "Politically Incorrect""The chief contribution of Protestantism to human thought is its massive proof that God is a bore." -- H. L. Mencken's Notebooks, no. 309 (1956), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations"God is real, unless declared Integer"."Why does the Vatican have lightning rods?""Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an aboslutely powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is deeply and personally concerned about my sex life.""'God is as real as I am' the old man said. I was relieved since I knew Santa wouldn't lie to me ... ""And Jesus said unto them, 'And whom do you say that I am?' They replied, 'You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, the ontological foundation of the context of our very selfhood revealed.' And Jesus replied, 'What?'"

Guest · #6

Religion - more serious quotes: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence." -- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri, 973-1057, Syrian poet "If Atheism is a religion, then health is a disease!" -- Clark Adams"Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy." -- Ambrose Bierce"Religions are conclusions for which the facts of nature supply no major premises." -- Ambrose Bierce, "Collected Works" (1912)"Missionaries are perfect nuisances and leave every place worse than they found it." -- Charles Dickens"Intellectually, religious emotions are not creative but conservative. They attach themselves readily to the current view of the world and consecrate it." -- John Dewey"Beyond the grave they will find nothing but death. But we shall keep the secret, and for their happiness we shall allure them with the reward of heaven and eternity." -- Fyodor Dostoyevski, The Brothers Karamazov, remark of the Grand Inquisitor"If there is a God, atheism must strike Him as less of an insult than religion." -- Edmond and Jules de Goncourt"Belief in gods and belief in ghosts is identical. God is taken as a more respectable word than ghost, but it means no more." -- E. Haldeman-Julius, "The Meaning Of Atheism""Businesses may come and go, but religion will last forever, for in no other endeavor does the consumer blame himself for product failure." -- Harvard Lampoon, "Doon" (paraphrase)"History has the relation to truth that theology has to religion -- i.e. none to speak of." -- Robert Heinlein (Lazarus Long)"Organized religion is like organized crime; it preys on peoples' weakness, generates huge profits for its operators, and is almost impossible to eradicate." -- Mike Hermann"Theology is but the ignorance of natural causes reduced to a system." -- Baron Paul Henri T. d'Holbach"John Wesley said that if you give up the witchcraft, you must give up the Bible. He is right. The choice is easy for me." -- Rupert Hughes"The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one." -- David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, 1748"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." -- David Hume, Treatise of Human Nature (1739)"You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, quite intelligent enough." -- Aldous Huxley"...your belief in God is merely an escape from your monotonous, stupid and cruel life." -- Krishnamurti"It is possible to pay another man's debts on his behalf, but it is not possible to make a guilty man innocent by suffering in his place." -- Carl Lofmark, What is the Bible?"Christians say that--without exception--their God answers all of their prayers; it's just that He sometimes says 'yes' and other times 'no', 'maybe', or 'wait'. Of course the same could be said of the rain-god, 'Bob'." -- Rev. Donald Morgan"Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat." -- John Morley"Few nations have been so poor as to have but one god. Gods were made so easily, and the raw material cost so little, that generally the god market was fairly glutted, and heaven crammed with these phantoms." -- Robert G. Ingersoll, "The Gods", 1872"Take from the church the miraculous, the supernatural, the incomprehensible, the unreasonable, the impossible, the unknowable, the absurd, and nothing but a vacuum remains." -- Robert G. Ingersoll, Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 1, p. 285This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves." -- Robert G. Ingersoll"The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith.'" -- Robert G. Ingersoll"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate." -- F. M. Knowles"The fascists of the 21st century aren't going to come with swastikas and billy clubs. They're going to come with clerical collars and lawyers, and they'll sue their critics into bankruptcy." -- Michael Langone, executive director of the Florida-based American Family Foundation"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." -- H. L. Mencken, quoted from 'Not Church'"The cosmos is a gigantic fly wheel making 10,000 revolutions a minute. Man is a sick fly taking a dizzy ride on it. Religion is the theory that the wheel was designed and set spinning to give him the ride." -- H. L. Mencken, quoted from 'Not Church'"'God', 'immortality of the soul', 'redemption', 'beyond'. Without exception, concepts to which I have never devoted any attention, or time; not even as a child. Perhaps I have never been childlike enough for them? I do not by any means know atheism as a result; even less as an event: It is a matter of course with me, from instinct. I am too inquisitive, too questionable, too exuberant to stand for any gross answer. God is a gross answer, an indelicacy against us thinkers -- at bottom merely a gross prohibition for us: you shall not think!" -- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, 1844-1900, "Ecce Homo""Christianity came into existence in order to lighten the heart; but now it has first to burden the heart so as afterwards to be able to lighten it. Consequently it shall perish. -- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, 1844-1900, "Human, all too Human", p. 119"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal, 1623-1662, "Pense'es" #894."To make sure that my blasphemy is thoroughly expressed, I hereby state my opinion that the notion of a god is a basic superstition, that there is no evidence for the existence of any god(s), that devils, demons, angels and saints are myths, that there is no life after death, heaven nor hell, that the Pope is a dangerous, bigoted, medieval dinosaur, and that the Holy Ghost is a comic-book character worthy of laughter and derision." -- James Randi, "Challenge"

Guest · #7

We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." -- Gene Roddenberry"It is an interesting and demonstrable fact, that all children are atheists and were religion not inculcated into their minds, they would remain so." -- Ernestine Rose"Blasphemy laws should be abolished. It would be a strange God indeed, that required protection by the judicial system." -- Salman Rushdie"My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race. I cannot, however, deny that it has made some contributions to civilization. It helped in early days to fix the calendar, and it caused Egyptian priests to chronicle eclipses with such care that in time they became able to predict them. These two services I am prepared to acknowledge, but I do not know of any others." -- Bertrand Russell, 'Has Religion Made Useful Contributions to Civilization?'"One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it." -- Bertrand Russell, 'Why I Am Not A Christian', Little Blue Book No. 1372 edited by E. Haldeman-Julius."My conclusion is that there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology and, further, that there is no reason to wish that they were true. Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity." -- Bertrand Russell, 'Is There a God?'"It requires only two things to win credit for a miracle: a mountebank and a number of silly women." -- Marquis de Sade"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality." -- George Bernard Shaw"When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said let us close our eyes and pray. When we opened our eyes we had the Bible and they had the land." -- Bishop Desmond Tutu"Moral indignation - jealousy with a halo." -- H.G. Wells"Theists think all gods but theirs are false. Atheists simply don't make an exception for the last one.""Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.""On the sixth day God created man. On the seventh day, man returned the favor.""Faith is to the human what sand is to the ostrich.""Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.""Man created God in his own image.""If the Bible is mistaken in telling us where we came from, how can we trust it to tell us where we're going?""Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject -- otherwise there's no need for faith."

Guest · #8

I suppose "amazed" thinks it is very clever to just paste qoutes on the message board and attempt to brainwash everybody. You people will never learn will you? What is it with you people? Wake up guys and see what is happening. Don't live in your so called enlightened " reformist world" It's not doing you any good. Aqa Maula is the representative of the Imam-uz-zaman in seclusion. But wait, you people are already denying that there is an Imam. So tell me, who is going away from the faith?

Guest · #9

Mulla mumeeen, The truth of the matter is you and your Burhanuddin and other kotharis are the one brainwashing the bohri community for more than seventy five years in the name of religion.Amazed, you did a wonderful job by posting those "quotes". It certainly applies to current Burhanuddin regime and the facts hurts them badly.

Guest · #10

Dear IshaaQ... sadly... not just the Bohras but almost all the people r being conned, one way or the other... tathagat's targets are people like Popan co, (Burhanuddin too effing small a fly... the miniscule popa

)... and the 50 states of USA who say... their motto "In god (lie) we trust", me message is "In truth we trust"... as far... to faith... or not to faith...

, the quotes quite enlightning.here is another vintage Dylan... Hard rain a-gonna fall... to do poetry or be poetry... u gotta be through all the same, as he sang...Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son? Oh, where have you been, my darling young one? I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains, I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways, I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests, I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans, I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard, And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard, And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.Oh, what did you see, my blue-eyed son? Oh, what did you see, my darling young one? I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it, I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin', I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin', I saw a white ladder all covered with water, I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken, I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children, And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son? And what did you hear, my darling young one? I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin', Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world, Heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin', Heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin', Heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin', Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter, Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley, And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.Oh, who did you meet, my blue-eyed son? Who did you meet, my darling young one? I met a young child beside a dead pony, I met a white man who walked a black dog, I met a young woman whose body was burning, I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow, I met one man who was wounded in love, I met another man who was wounded with hatred, And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.Oh, what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son? Oh, what'll you do now, my darling young one? I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin', I'll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest, Where the people are many and their hands are all empty, Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters, Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison, Where the executioner's face is always well hidden, Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten, Where black is the color, where none is the number, And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it, And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it, Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin', But I'll know my song well before I start singin', And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Guest · #11

The Diamond Sutra 1. This is what I have heard: Once, the Buddha was staying at Anathapindika’s retreat in the Jeta Grove near the city of Sravasti, with a gathering of 1250 monks. After dressing and making his begging rounds in the city and eating his one meal, he sat with the monks. 2. The monk Subhuti paid his respects to the Buddha and asked a question: “What should one who wants to travel the Bodhisattva path keep in mind?” 3. The Buddha answered, “A Bodhisattva should keep this in mind: All creatures, whether they are born from the womb or hatched from the egg, whether they transform like butterflies or arise miraculously, whether they have a body or are purely spirits, whether they are capable of thought or not capable of thought: All of these I vow to help enter nirvana before I rest there myself! “But keep in mind, Subhuti, that in reality there is no such thing as an I who helps, and no such thing as an other whom I help. A Bodhisattva who does not recognize this reality is no true Bodhisattva! 4. “A true Bodhisattva takes no pleasure in this act of compassion and has no interest in appearances. He simply helps others selflessly. “Can you measure the east, the west, the north, and the south, Subhuti?” “No, Lord.” “Neither can you measure the merit of someone who can help others without thought of himself.” 5. “Subhuti! Can anyone tell who is a Buddha on the basis of physical characteristics?” “No, Lord. You have taught that Buddhahood is not a matter of physical characteristics.” “So one who is concerned with appearances will never see the Buddha, but one is not concerned with appearances may.” 6. Subhuti asked, “Lord, will there always be people who understand your message?” Buddha answered, “Don’t doubt it, Subhuti! There will always be people who, hearing the message, will adhere to the precepts and practice our way. Our message will reach people simply because it is true! There will come a time when many will no longer need words, but will be beyond words. We must all strive to go beyond the words, because words can be clung to, and we should not cling to things. Understand that the words of the Buddha are like a raft built to cross a river: When its purpose is completed, it must be left behind if we are to travel further! 7. “So tell me, Subhuti. Have I taught the ultimate teaching?” “No, Lord. The ultimate teaching is not something which can be taught, because the ultimate teaching is not a thing which can be grasped or clung to.” 8. The Buddha said, “Tell me, Subhuti. If someone gave away a universe full of treasures to help others, would he gain great merit?” “Yes, Lord. His merit would be great. But you have also taught us that, in order for this act of generosity to be genuine, he would not have thought of gaining merit. In fact, he would not have thought of himself at all!” The Buddha said, “Now, if someone understands and passes on even four sentences of my message to another, his generosity is even greater. He is not just giving something, he is helping to create future Buddhas!” 9. “Tell me, Subhuti. Would someone who is beginning to understand my message say to himself ‘I have accomplished something grand’?” “No, Lord. Saying something like that would mean that the beginner doesn’t understand that there is no ego there to take credit for anything at all!” “And would someone who is highly advanced in his understanding of my message say to himself ‘I have accomplished something grand’?” “No, Lord. Anyone saying such a thing would also be saying that there is indeed an ego that attains something, and something to attain. These are not the thoughts of someone who understands your message. “Lord, you have said that I have been successful in achieving peace and freedom from passions. In fact, I no longer crave the status of a saint. If I did, I am sure that you would never have thought so much of me!" 10. “Subhuti, If I say, ‘Bodhisattvas adorn the heavens,” would I be speaking the truth?” “No, Lord. Adornments are illusions, and illusions have no place in the heavens.” “And so Bodhisattvas should rid their minds of ego, and cease their preferences for one odor or another, one sound or another, one sight or another. A Bodhisattva should have no attachment or aversion to anything.” The Buddha asked, “Subhuti, if a man had a body as huge as a mountain, would he be a great man?” “No, Lord. Because “a great man” is only words, and being a great man is an illusion, created by the belief in ego.” ... 13. Then Subhuti asked the Buddha, “Lord, what shall we call this sermon?” The Buddha answered, “Call it ‘The Diamond Sutra on the Perfection of Wisdom.’ Like a diamond blade, it can cut through all delusion!” ... 14. Then Subhuti suddenly had a full awareness of the meaning of the sermon, and was moved to tears. “Lord, thank you for this sermon. Anyone who hears it and understands it with a pure mind will be moved by it. Even hundreds of years into the future, its clarity will be appreciated." .... 32. “Subhuti, if someone gave away enough treasure to fill a universe, he would still not gain as much merit as someone who manages to understand and pass on a few lines of this sermon. “So what should be on one’s mind as one begins the Bodhisattva journey? "Like a falling star, like a bubble in a stream, Like a flame in the wind, like frost in the sun, Like a flash of lightning or a passing dream -- So should you understand the world of the ego.” Subhuti and the rest of the monks were filled with joy at hearing the Buddha’s sermon. [An interpretation and abridgement based on other translations. All errors are mine alone!]

Guest · #12

Thanks for the Diamond Sutra. True knowledge is so humbling.

Guest · #13

Amazed, such a great collection you have. Some are very funny.

Thanx

Guest · #14

amazed,

Guest · #15

Amazed,If you don't believe in a God, you really shouldn't be posting here. Of course you are free to express yourself in the name of freedom of speech but it's way out of place. The existence of God is a whole separate issue and needs a maturity of mind, an openness of mind and sincerity without prejudice to discuss the matter and to weigh both sides.Your quotes are very much borrowed and although they sound very intellectual on the outside, they are hollow. Others with a keen eye and mind know what I mean.By the way I am not a typical bohri but more of a muslim and have come to be so through a sincere search for the truth by reading, and personal experiences and not by 'blind' faith as you love to word it.

Guest · #16

<A HREF="http://au.atheism.org/Article.htm" TARGET=_blank> SOME QUESTIONS FOR THE BELIEVER!</A>so it seems it won't work...URL Hyperlinking To add a hyperlink to your message, just encase the link as shown in the following example (UBB Code is in red). http://www.prime-web.com In the example above, the UBB Code automatically generates a hyperlink to the URL that is encased. It will also ensure that the link is opened in a new window when the user clicks on it. Note that the "http://" part of the URL is completely optional.

Guest · #17

http://www.eoffshore.com/prometheus/soc ... p>Socrates Meets Jesus by Prometheus Socrates Good morning, Jesus, I have heard much of your marvelous teachings. In my own modest way I am a philosopher here in Athens. I am told you have great wisdom and certainly that is indicated by the throng of admirers that follow you through the streets. If you have a few moments to spare, I would appreciate it if you would enlighten me with the answers to some of the puzzling problems I have been wrestling with all my life Jesus I am as a fisher of men in my search for followers. I bring the truth of God to all men. Seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be answered knock and it shall be open unto to thee. Socrates There is one basic question that has always been uppermost in my mind. Although it has always been an insurmountable obstacle to me in my search for the truth and meaning, I am sure that with your learning you will find it far to easy and think me a foolish old man. I have always longed to live honorably and nobly, but it seems that I have merely stumbled through life without even even knowing what was honorable or noble. With my limited understanding, it often seems to me that life, even with all its sound and fury, really signifies nothing. Please tell me: How should a man live; what is the purpose of life. Jesus To serve and worship God. Socrates Which God. Jesus There is only one god. Socrates Oh. You should live here in Athens. We have several to choose from. Jesus There is only one true God. Socrates Of course. And which one is the true God? Jesus The true god is Lord God. Socrates Yes. But who is Lord God? Or what is he? Jesus He is the infinity of wisdom, love, compassion, peace, and mercy. He is the creator of heaven and earth all things in the universe. Socrates Of all things? Jesus Yes-all things. He is omnipotent. He is master and controller and maker of all things. He is omnipresent-nothing can happen that he does not know beforehand. Socrates Did he create plagues, wars, death, suffering and evil. Jesus No. These things and all other evils and tragedies come from the Devil, the prince of darkness; or from man's weakness and evil nature. God is all goodness and free of evil; only good can come from God Socrates And who for gracious sakes is the devil? Surely he must be a god to be able to visit such powerful calamities on mankind: Yet you have just said there is only one God. Also you have said that all that exists comes from God: And now you say that only good comes from God and all evil comes from someone called the devil. These would seem to be contradictions. I am afraid that your religion is far too complex for this old head to fathom. Yet I will be an eager student and try hard to understand, if you will but help me. Please explain: who is the devil and how can all things come from God and yet not come from God? Jesus: The Devil is a fallen angel who is ambitious. He rebelled against God and wants to overthrow all his works. Socrates: What in Zeus' name is an angel? Jesus: An angel is an angel. Socrates: Of course, that's an identity. Socrates is Socrates. But, you see, it doesn't mean anything to me, inexperienced as I am in your religion. Although it's true as true can be, it doesn't relate to anything I can understand. Compare it to something I am familiar with. Jesus: An angel is an angel. Socrates: Please forgive me for my stolid ignorance. Understand that I am no authority such as you are. I have never seen an angel or heard of one. I am told that you had many strange visions when you wandered in the desert for 40 days without eating. Pray tell, what do they look like, these angels? Jesus: They have wings. Socrates: So do gnats. Could you be a little more specific? Jesus: They look like people except they have wings. Socrates: What else? They can fly, I assume Jesus: Yes, that's what the wings are for. Socrates: Of course--I might have known. You say they look like men. How are they different from men? Jesus: The are much better than men, and they never die. Socrates: How better than men? Jesus: More virtuous and more powerful. Much more powerful. Socrates: They are super-human, then. Jesus: Yes. Absolutely! Socrates: Then they are superhuman and they are immortal. We in Athens would call such beings gods. Jesus: No! God is more powerful than they. Socrates: So is Zeus to us more powerful than other Olympic gods, but the others are still by definition gods. How would you define the term God? Jesus: God is the creator of all. He is all power, knowledge, wisdom and the epitome of justice, mercy, compassion, goodness; and peace. Socrates: These qualities are, however, not necessarily consistent. It is not possible for a person to be just, peaceful and merciful, all in one instance or situation. If a person or a nation deserves punishment by the rule of justice, you must punish him or wage war on them, but this would be a violation of the rule of peace or mercy. No one being could have all these qualities because they contradict each other; they cannot exist together in the same person at the same time. It is as though a man had turned both left and right at the same corner at the same time, while still remaining whole and entire. Jesus: God works his wonders in mysterious ways. Socrates: It would seem that you have many gods just as we do in Athens, only you don't call them gods. Jesus: No! God is all powerful. Socrates: Then the only difference is the degree of power? Jesus: No. God is better and more virtuous than they. Sin is impossible for him. Socrates: What is sin? Jesus: It is an act of disobedience to God. Socrates: I see from this that God could not sin, because he could not be disobedient to himself. But since sin is impossible for him, it is no more a mark of achievement for him to be free of sin than it is a mark of achievement for a rock to be unable to move. It's merely a matter of definition. What do they do, these angles? Jesus: They do errands for God. Socrates: Why if God is all powerful, does he need others to do errands for him? Jesus: He likes it that way. Socrates: They are his slaves, then? Jesus: No, they serve him willingly. Socrates: What happens if they don't serve him willingly? Jesus: There were several angels led by Satan, the devil, who rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven to eternal torment and punishment. Socrates: What is heaven? Jesus: It is a wonderful place high in the sky. The streets are paved with gold. Everything is peaceful and beautiful there. God lives there and all who believe in God go there when they die. Men have eternal life there and are given wings and worship God and play harps in eternal bliss and happiness forever. It is the purpose and goal of all of man's life to go to heaven when he dies. Socrates: This sounds much like the accounts I have heard given by those who have eaten the lotus flower. If this was the purpose of life, could we not simply become intoxicated on wine or drugs and feel this way all the time, like the beggars and drunks we see on the other side of the city? Jesus: The Bible says thou shalt not partake of wine or strong drink. Socrates: If is the sole purpose of man's life to get to heaven, why does he not simply kill himself and go there? Jesus: Thou shalt no kill. Socrates: If God wanted man to go to heaven, why did he put man on earth in the first place? Why did he not simply put man in heaven from the beginning? I find it hard to believe that man with all his capabilities, desires, and complexities was created merely to sit and bow and scrape and worship. Certainly there is not, nor ever was, a human tyrant so vain and proud that he wanted his subjects merely to bow and scrape obsequiously and subserviently before him from dawn to dusk, let alone for all eternity. I certainly can understand why Satan wanted to rebel against such a static, regimented, oppressive, boring society. From what you have told me so far, I would have had to side with Satan in the rebellion, for although I consider myself a humble man as men go, I could not bow and scrape and sing praises all day to a being who threatened me with punishment and eternal torment if I did not. Jesus: The Lord thy God is a jealous god and thou shalt have no other gods before him. Socrates: Why did Satan rebel? Did he know that God was as powerful as you describe him to be and that he was certain to be defeated? Jesus: Satan rebelled because he was proud and wanted to rule heaven himself. He knew partly of God's great power (that it was greater than his own), but he wanted power so badly that he was willing to take any chance. Socrates: Satan was certainly very brave, then; to strive against a foe he could not defeat. Jesus: He was sinful because he was disobedient to the will of God. Socrates: It seems to me that the only difference between Satan and God is the degree of power. Jesus: God is perfect. He is all powerful, all knowing, and without sin. Socrates: Of course; by definition he is without sin because he could not be disobedient to himself. The only real difference between the two is the degree of power. Therefore, Satan was not wrong or sinful to rebel against God, he was only wrong to lose the rebellion. For if he had won, God would be the sinner: because God would have been disobedient to Satan who would be better than God or the other angels because he could not sin against himself, that is, be disobedient to himself, and he would have proven himself all powerful. If Satan had won, he would have become God, by your definition because he would have been all powerful and without sin. Who knows but that this didn't happen? From your description of God, I begin to suspect at this point that it did. Jesus: God is more than mere power and righteous lack of sin: he is infinite justice, mercy, peace and compassion, and all forgiving. Satan is vicious, selfish, destructive, and evil. Socrates: What happened to Satan after he was thrown out of heaven? Jesus: He was thrown into Hell by God where he was tormented and tortured for all eternity. Socrates: What is Hell and why did Satan stay there if it is so painful and unpleasant? Jesus: God locked him in Hell and he was not permitted to leave. God created Hell as a place to punish Satan and all men who do not have faith in God. It is an eternal burning inferno or torture, agony, and torment: all sinful men who do not ask God for forgiveness and have no faith in him go there for all eternity to be tortured by the devil. Socrates: If God is just or merciful, how can he do this to an enemy who fought him in battle. Why did God not simply pardon Satan after defeat as men often do to a captured nation after they defeat it? Mankind would seem in victory to be more merciful than God; for they do not treat the vanquished to such terrible torments for even a lifetime, let alone for all eternity. Why did God not show the qualities that you described as his justice, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness to Satan? Certainly God's warlike nature is in marked contrast with your definition of the term God as being peaceful, merciful and all forgiving. Jesus: God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform. Socrates: If Satan is locked in Hell, how can he bring plagues and torments on mankind and why does God allow it if he is all powerful and all good? If God is all powerful, how is it that he permits this evil Satan to survive? Why does he not destroy him? Although I begin to wonder, at this point, if the opposite course would not be better. Jesus: God allows Satan to be free to bring plagues and torments on mankind in order to punish man for his sin in the Garden of Eden. Socrates: What is the Garden of Eden? Jesus: When God created the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, he put them in the Garden of Eden. When they were created, they were pure and without sin. That is how God created them. The Garden of Eden was a beautiful paradise, and it provided Adam and Eve with everything they needed. They did no have to work but merely pluck the fruit from the branches from lush trees. They were as innocent and untroubled as children and knew nothing about carnal fleshly love. They had each other for companions and adored and worshiped God who visited them once in a while. Socrates: Why did God create mankind? Jesus: He was lonely. Socrates: Why did he not simply create additional angels who were more his equal rather than this much lower form of life, Man? Could it be that he wanted obsequious slaves that he could look down on who would fear, reverence, and worship him? Jesus: Since he is our creator, we owe him our worship, reverence, and obedience. ... for more check the above urlFI: What appeals to you in Islam? Clarke: Historically, Islam had a great deal of tolerance for other views and offered the world its priceless wisdom in the form of astronomy and algebra. And, as you know, Islam helped rescue Western civilization from the Dark Ages by preserving classical texts and transmitting them to the West. We, on the other hand, burned the library at Alexandria. If Islam hadn't fallen into internecine warfare and had gone on to conquer the rest of Europe, we'd have avoided a thousand years of Christian barbarism. http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/ ... _19_2.html

Guest · #18

Socrates: Is the child of a criminal duty-bound to be obedient to his father, or does he have a right and obligation to judge for himself between right and wrong? What sin, what act of disobedience, did man commit in the Garden of Eden? Jesus: In the center of the Garden of Eden, God put the tree of knowledge. God told Adam and Eve that they were not to eat of the fruit of that tree. Satan went to the Garden disguised as a snake and told Eve that she would gain great knowledge if she ate the fruit. Satan said that God had told them not to eat the fruit because he was afraid that if they did they would become as great as he was. Eve convinced Adam to eat the fruit. After they ate, the learned of sexual love. That was the original sin. Socrates: Is knowledge evil that God would want to keep it from us? Why did God want to keep us from gaining knowledge? Did he want to keep us subservient slaves groveling under his feet? It seems to me that we owe Satan thanks and worship for his help. Satan seems rather like the Titan Prometheus, who in defiance of the orders of the gods brought man the knowledge of fire. For this service to man, Prometheus like Satan was subjected to torment and torture for all eternity. Certainly human life would be worth a great deal less that it is without love, fire and knowledge. Jesus: But Satan was lying to Eve, because we did not become as great as God by eating the fruit. He was lying to us merely because he wanted to destroy the work of God. Socrates: If God is all powerful, why did he allow Satan to come to the Garden and tempt Eve? If God did not want man to eat the fruit, why did he put the tree in the Garden in the first place? If God did not want man to make sexual love, why did he equip man with the organs necessary for it? If God did not want man to commit the original sin, why did he give man a desire for knowledge, experience, adventure and carnal love? Jesus: God put the tree in the Garden and allowed Satan to come there because he wanted to test mankind. Socrates: You have said that God was all knowing; that he knows everything that happens before it happens. Certainly God already knew how man would behave in any situation. Jesus: God gave man free will. It was just as possible for man to be virtuous and obey God as it was for man to be sinful and disobey the word of God. Socrates: Did God know that man would sin? Jesus: He knew that man would sin but he allowed man the free will to make his own choice. Socrates: Could God have created man so he could not sin? Could God have created man so that he would not have sinned in this particular situation? Jesus: Yes, since God is all powerful he could have done that, but he did not want men to be mere puppets; he wanted men to have free will. Socrates: Could God have created man with two heads and three legs or any other way if he wanted to? Jesus: God could have created man any way he wanted to. Socrates: Did God create man the way he intended to? Did God intend for man to have one head, two legs and to appear exactly as he does today? Jesus: Of course: God is perfect and all powerful; he could not make a mistake. Socrates: Then God did not make a mistake, but created man exactly as he intended to in every way? Jesus: Yes. Socrates: Then you and I were created exactly as God intended us to be? And Adam and Eve were created exactly as God intended them to be? Jesus: Yes. It is as I have said. Socrates: Did everything that is part of man come from God? Jesus: Yes: God is the master and controller and creator of all. Socrates: Did the devil or any other force create any part of man? Jesus: No. God is sole creator of all. Socrates: Then, if God created man's eyes, legs and mind, he also created man's desires; all his desires, even his desire for knowledge and sex. Why did man sin? Jesus: He sinned because of his weaknesses and his evil nature. Socrates: Is man's nature a part of man, just as hands and feet are a part of man? Jesus: Yes. Man's nature is a part of man. Socrates: Who created man? Jesus: God. Socrates: Who created man's hands and feet? Jesus: God. Socrates: Who gave man two hands and two feet and created them exactly as they are today, and exactly as they were in the time of Adam and Eve? Jesus: God. Socrates: Who created man's nature? Jesus: God. Socrates: Who gave man his evil nature and weaknesses? God did, because everything that is a part of man came from God and God alone. Jesus: God gave man free will. Socrates: Who intended for men to have two hands, the devil? Jesus: No. God intended for man to have two hands. Socrates: Who intended for man to have weaknesses and an evil nature, the devil? No. God intended for man to have weaknesses and evil nature. If mankind is flawed or evil or weak, it is because God put the flaw or weakness there and intended it to be there. Let me tell you another parable. Have you ever seen the birds killing fish in the sea? Who put it into that bird to fang and kill that flying fish? Who's to doom, man, when the judge himself is dragged before the bar? Jesus: Man has free will. God did not force him to sin. He merely gave him the opportunity to be virtuous or sinful. Man would have been of no value to God if he had made him a mere puppet who could do nothing but good. He wanted to give man the opportunity to be good or evil according to his own merit and choice. Socrates: It is absurd for God to punish man after creating him. It is as though a Homer wrote an ode about a pig and then whipped and lashed the pages or cast them on an eternal unconsuming fire, because he disliked the qualities of the animal. Or that a master sculptor made a perfect statue of a pig and then lashed it for all eternity because he disliked the traits of the animal. Jesus: God did not create man with an evil nature that predetermined that he must sin. Socrates: Then who did? Jesus: God created man to be innocent and naturally good. God put man in a paradise, the Garden of Eden. He gave man free will and allowed Satan to come into the Garden of Eden to test mankind. God did not predetermine that man would sin. Socrates: But God created everything that went into this combination, situation or environment. When he created each of the elements or ingredients in the situation, he knew exactly how each would react with the others in any circumstance; because he was all knowing. He intended for each element to be exactly as it was because he was all-powerful and could not make a mistake. It is as though a scientist or a physician combined several ingredients into a medicine, which although harmless in themselves, when combined become a deadly poison; and then after administering it to a patient, disavowed any responsibility for his death. In just this way, God combined many things; an innocent man, a tree of knowledge, a beautiful garden and an angel. Jesus: All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Socrates: It seems to me that you Lord God has merely created man to watch him suffer. This business of Satan, the Garden of Eden and free will is merely a facade. God merely wanted an excuse to harass, persecute, torment and oppress mankind. If an all-powerful and all-knowing being creates everything, and allows his creations to react in a certain way, he actually intended them to act in that way and is solely responsible for the results. Jesus: I warn you, God is not mocked. Do not talk in this way or you will be thrown into the fiery furnace where you will gnash your teeth, forever in torture and torment. Socrates: I thought our Olympic gods were vicious and unreasonable, but they seem veritable lambs of mercy and forbearance compared to this God of yours: who torments and tortures you for all eternity for doing what he forces you to do in the very making of you and your environment. Jesus: Oh, give thanks unto the Lord for he is good; For his mercy endureth forever. Socrates: Why, if he is a god of peace and mercy does he torment mankind and permit, even encourage and demand, bloodshed on earth; and permit, even demand Satan to tempt and torture mankind: since you said that nothing happens that he does not only know about, but will to happen? An all-powerful being who knows all and creates all, determines all, because he knows the way his creations will act. Jesus: God gave man free will because he did not want him to be a mere puppet. God did not want man to sin. God was very disappointed when man sinned. Socrates: God could not possibly be disappointed because he knew the nature of man and all else that he created. Since he is all powerful, he intended man to sin. Indeed he forced man to sin by creating man with certain desires and weaknesses. Jesus: What you say is blasphemy. God created the world and all the plants and animals for the pleasure of man. Look at the beautiful world around you. How can you say such terrible things about God after he has given so much to you? Socrates: I certainly couldn't believe this. How could a god who was so vicious, sadistic and hateful create a world with so much beauty? Even man with as much evil as there seems at times to be in him, still at other times exhibits incredible strength, self sacrifice and loyalty, and degrees of the conflicting qualities of mercy and justice. Your Lord God has none of these qualities. Certainly there never was a man however vile who could do to another man what you claim God does to those who do not respect him: torture them for all eternity. Any man, no matter how foully he has been mangled, tortured or murdered--like Priam whose whole clan was slain or Agamemnon who was murdered by his wife and her lover--would eventually relent after years or centuries of torturing his foe. Jesus: I am the way, the truth and the light. None come to the Father except by me. Believe in me and have eternal life in heaven; deny me and suffer eternal torture in Hell. Socrates: If I did accept your system, I would have to side with Satan against your God; even knowing that I would be tormented and tortured forever. The injustice and viciousness of your God is so appalling. I have heard terrible accounts of human sacrifices by savages on distant coasts; but certainly, even they never thought of torturing their victims for all eternity. I have heard frightening accounts of terrible monsters, Cyclops, gorgons and medusas, but these monsters are as tame and gentle as lambs, compared to those described in your book of Revelation. And you tell me of Lord God's peaceful, merciful and all-forgiving nature. Jesus: We are all the children of God. God is our father and does not want us to sin but must punish us when we do. He is just and merciful and only sends us, his children, to Hell, damnation and eternal torment when it is our own fault. When we sin and lust after sex like Adam and Eve, he has no choice but to punish us, by torturing us in eternal fire forever. Socrates: You say we are all the children of God. He is a veritable monster to harass his own children for having the eyes, legs and desires that he gave them. Be these juggling fiends no more believed, that palter with us in a double sense and keep the word of promise to our ear but to break it to our hope. I see not purpose, nor reason, nor truth, nor mercy, nor justice; naught but capricious naked power. Indeed, human beings, for all their caprice, selfishness and weaknesses, seem to have more of these qualities than your God. Your God is a demonic, sadistic, psychotic fiend. Jesus: We are merely human and cannot understand the infinite mysteries of God. It is our duty to be faithful and believe and follow him. It is not ours to reason why but to do and die. Socrates: Not reason? But why were we given minds? How are we to determine how to live and what is the purpose of life? What are we doing discussing this now? Why have you been preaching to people all of your life? Why have you risked your life in defiance of the orders of the Romans? Jesus: By faith are we saved, lest any man should boast. Socrates: Faith. What do you mean by faith? Jesus: We must believe without asking for proof. We must not be doubting Thomases. If we believe in God, we will be paid back for all our trials and tribulations a thousandfold when we get to heaven. Socrates: You say we should believe whatever we are told, without investigating it or examining it; we should be gullible? If I did this, I should give my purse to every man on the street who promised to return it to me a thousandfold. I would be a fool to do as you say. And here you are not asking me to give mere money, but to dedicate the whole of my life to one undertaking and one purpose without ever considering the value of the undertaking. A thief demands my money by threatening my life. You demand my life by threatening me with torture and promising me paradise. I am not a meek and gullible fool to be led whither I am told by empty promises and threats. Jesus: The meek shall inherit the earth. Socrates: The meek are slaughtered and made slaves like the women and children of a defeated nation. Jesus: You must not question God! Socrates: I have never met this gentleman, and therefore can not question him. I am questioning you who claim to represent him, to determine whether or not you really do. Jesus: We must believe the Bible, the Scripture, the Word of God; by faith without expecting to be able to understand and without asking for proof. Socrates: It is impossible for a man to not choose. You are aware that there are several thousand religions in the world? If we believe by faith, we would have to accept them all; yet they are all different, and that would be impossible. It would be like believing that the world was round and flat at the same time. Certainly, you don't practice what you preach; for then you would have believed that the Jewish religion and the Old Testament were right and not started this new heretical religion of your own. Or yesterday when Athena's priests admonished you in the street to stop preaching your heresy; you would have believed in the Greek religion of the Olympic Gods because it was first and you should believe it by faith because they told you it was true. Jesus: By faith are we saved lest any man should boast. Socrates: Let me give you a specific example. Suppose the Oracle of Delphi told me a certain person was guilty of killing and raping my wife and that I should kill him or else he will kill me, fearing that I will discover his crime and kill him; and you tell me 'thou shalt not kill.' You tell me that I must believe by faith by whatever I am told. Following your injunction, I must kill the man because of my faith in the Oracle of Delphi and I must not kill the man because of my faith in Lord God. For I cannot both kill the man and not kill the man because they are contradictory. Therefore, I cannot believe in both the Oracle of Delphi and the Lord God. Therefore, it is impossible for me to believe anything by faith alone. There is an intellectual choice that you and I and all men make, whether it is voluntary or not, as to what we believe. What would you rather do: make choice by thinking, discussing and considering all the aspects of the problem or by blindly denying that there is any choice necessary? This choice is the most important one in a man's life because the answer to the question, "what is the purpose of life?" determines the whole course of a man's life. If a man is to direct his every move by his religion, as you advocate, then certainly, he must put a great deal of thought into his choice of religions. Let me tell you a parable: If you are to go from one city to another on some task that involves your whole life, would it not be wise to consider all the routes, whether some of them are frequented by robbers, whether there is not a closer or safer city to go to, or , indeed, whether there is any city there at all? Jesus: If you, honestly wish to know the truth about God, creation and the purpose of life, there is a very simple way to discover the truth. All you have to do is ask God to come into your heart. If you sincerely wish to know the truth about God, the holy spirit will come into your being and you will become one with God. At that moment, you will gain heavenly knowledge and peace; and when you die, you will go to heaven and live forever in happiness and contentment. Socrates: I long to know the truth. What is it exactly that I must do and say in order to gain this knowledge and wisdom? How do I address him? Jesus: Say, "Lord come into my heart and give me the wisdom to understand the truth." Socrates: You say that by merely repeating this, I will gain knowledge about the purpose of life? Jesus: Yes. The Lord says seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be answered, knock and it shall be opened unto thee. God has promised to show the truth to anyone who asks. Socrates: Lord come into my heart and give me the wisdom to understand the truth. Jesus: There, you see. Now thank God for giving you eternal life. Socrates: Nothing has happened. I know no more about the purpose of life than I did before. Jesus: Then you are not sincere. You did not really wish God to come into your heart and show you the truth. You did not have faith that he would come into your heart. Socrates: Truly I do wish to know the truth. I have dedicated my whole life to the study of philosophy and reason. I wish more than life itself to learn the purpose of life. It is an answer I have been seeking since I first saw the sun. Unless I find it, I shall still be seeking it on the day I die. Perhaps he did not hear me; shall I ask again louder? Jesus: You have failed to finder the answer because you do not have faith. If a man has faith the size of a mustard seed, he can move a mountain and everything that he wishes comes to pass. Socrates: That is impossible. Did any of the people who follow you here today ever have relatives or friends who were sick and dying? Certainly they did; and certainly if they were good Christian folk they wished that the relative or friend would not be sick or die, but rather be healthy and happy once again. Certainly no one will be so foolish as to say he never had a friend die. Certainly no one will be so callous as to say he never wished the friend to live. Therefore, it follows that no one Christian in all the centuries ever had faith in God; or else that God was lying. Jesus: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord. Socrates: I will present a parable to prove that there was never a Christian or a Jew who had faith; and to prove that God was lying when he promised to come into a man's heart and teach him the purpose of life. First, would you agree that Hell is worse than any possible earthly misfortune? Jesus: Yes. Certainly. Socrates: And, have you not said that all men are sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God? Jesus: Yes. Socrates: All Christians or Jews, who have faith, believe that they will go to Hell if they sin. Allow me to present this parable. Each Christian is like a man who stands at the top of a cliff: he knows that if he commits a sin, he will fall to his death, or worse, to eternal torment. You have said that Hell is worse than any possible earthly misfortune. No matter how severe his earthly misfortunes or his desires, no man who was a faithful Christian, would commit a sin; that is, jump off the cliff to eternal torment. You have said that all men, including faithful Christians and Jews, are sinners. It follows that not one Christian or Jew since the beginning of time, ever really believed that he would go to hell. Because if he did believe it, he would not sin: he would not jump off the cliff if he believed that Hell and eternal torment awaited him below. All men do jump off the cliff; all men do sin. Therefore, not one in all these centuries really believed in you. It follows that God did not come into their hearts any more than he did into mine a few moments ago. Therefore God has no right to expect them to act in a Christian manner or to have faith in him. Therefore, God has no right to punish them or send them to Hell. Therefore your God is not just. Therefore your God is not God. Jesus: Look at the world around you. Doesn't that prove that God exists? See beautiful benevolent nature that makes you strong and healthy and provides you with the sun for warmth and the forest and field for food. Shouldn't you worship God for all that he has done for you? Socrates: I know that nature is all good and benevolent, but whose hailstones broke my window? Jesus: Simply because there is some evil in the world does not negate the good: You must thank God for that. God must exist because; where did the world come from if he did not create it? Socrates: It is not necessarily your God that created the world: There are thousands of other priests who claim that their God did it. Just because I do not have the answer, does not mean that I must accept yours without examining it. I could just as logically demand that you believe that Zeus created the world. Even if I agree that God created the world, that is the end of the definition of the qualities of God and we can't logically proceed from that to the assumption that the other aspects of your definition of God are correct. Jesus: Wait, do not leave! You must save your soul from eternal damnation. Accept God into your heart. I will not go, till you say aye to me. Socrates: Yes. These are only the idle thoughts of an old man. 'Tis certain you are right, since you have so many followers. And who am I, on dull-witted old man to put reason and philosophy above the voices of the multitude. Jesus: Thank God for giving you eternal life. Socrates was gone.

Guest · #19

http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... html ... Bohri Mosques/ jamat khanaas making tons of ugly noise... why it is all forced down others throats (ears)... why on public address systems ??? there is sure hell... ten times and over with all this ugly noises... all through the day...

Guest · #20

<A HREF="http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story ... ank>The new empire loyalists[/b]</a> : Former leftists turned US military cheerleaders are helping snuff out its traditions of dissent By Tariq Ali in The Guardian, Saturday March 16, 2002<A HREF="http://www.counterpunch.org/hobsbawm1.h ... ank>The Future of War and Peace[/b]</a> By Eric Hobsbawm, CounterPunch.org<A HREF="http://www.dawn.com/2002/03/13/op.htm"T ... >America's next war may be deadlier[/b]</a> By Mahir Ali in The Dawn<A HREF="http://www.alternet.org/story.html?Stor ... Blowing the Whistle on Bad Science[/b]</a> By Arianna Huffington, AlterNet<A HREF="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/audiov ... blank>A Newsnight [beeb] investigation[/b]</a> raised the possibility that there was a secret CIA project to investigate methods of sending anthrax through the mail which went madly out of control.<A HREF="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/14/inter ... 100,000 People Perished, but Who Remembers?[/b]</a> By HOWARD W. FRENCH 4 NYT<A HREF="http://www.adc.org/press/2002/11March20 ... tDaily.com Pulls Column from Site, Apologizes for Horowitz Slander against Ibish[/b]</a><A HREF="http://www.counterpunch.org/boylenukes. ... nk>Bush Nuclear Policy Violates International Law, Again[/b]</a> By Francis Boyle, CounterPunch.OrG <A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... nk>Nuts About Nukes[/b]</a> By Mary McGrory 4 WP<A HREF="http://commondreams.org/views02/0315-04 ... ank>The Bush Doctrine on Nuclear Weapons[/b]</a> by Marty Jezer, commondreams.org <A HREF="http://www.thetexasmercury.com/articles ... 20317.html" TARGET=_blank>Good For Me, But Not For Thee Four Right-Wing Hypocrisies[/b]</a> by Derek Copold, thetexasmercury.com<A HREF="http://commondreams.org/views02/0314-02.htm" TARGET=_blank>Nukes and Consequences[/b]</a> by Molly Ivins, CommonDreams.OrG

Guest · #21

All Gaandhiis are goin' outta business... and now bajrangii raavans doin' fast unto death... ha! Hussain was a dissent... as AAE & Co. out noombered... and they wouldn't budge... that is Hussain in essence... what is the point beating ur chest and not rekoning the significance of what he stood 4... but instead they talk about the weight of his sword... and that 5 people couldn't lift it stuff... don't say u haven't heard this... the fiction around heros...tathagat gone broke too... if tathagat is not able 2 continue his fight against... Nukes... wars... riots... bajarangiis... kaathmullahs... here, than someone will carry on... that he is pretty sure...he JB we in the same boat... JB at K yahoo forum...Hi,Just for the sake of orientation.. if in the near future, I shall not be posting much here, it is due to my being one of the lucky ones to be fired from my job,.. where I had a PC,.. which I do not have home.Anyways, I'll probably manage it from libraries, untill I eventually get a PC.And certainly, if in the meantime I become illuminated and reasonably enlightened, I'll write and tell you all about it ...

Till then, wish you all a good enquiry in a friendly athmosphere ! .. and after all, we do not do it Only for ourselves, but for the mind, which the whole of humanity, shares.So now, I'd better leave the concrete-walls of my office, and go out in the world, the sun and keep a bit of company with the trees .. I might find, that life is somewhat more extensive and rich, than this flat screen with dots on.Best wishes, Jb

Guest · #22

<A HREF="http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu" TARGET=_blank>BEEB, The BestRadio</A> <A HREF="http://www.dwelle.de/urdu/audio.html" TARGET=_blank> Radio Deutsche Welle</A> <A HREF="http://www.voa.gov/urdu/" TARGET=_blank>VOA Urdu language</A> <A HREF="http://radio.gov.pk/urdu.html" TARGET=_blank> Pakistan Broadcasting Corporation</A> <A HREF="http://www.nhk.or.jp/rj/ram/en/urdu.ram" TARGET=_blank>Radio Japan Urdu Service</A> <A HREF="http://www.ukindia.com/zurdu1.htm" TARGET=_blank>Learn Urdu on the web</A> <A HREF="http://www.navrangradio.com/outcaste.htm" TARGET=_blank>Some Foonky Museeque at Navrang</A>

Guest · #23

"All I have is a voice To undo the folded lie, The romantic lie in the brain Of the sensual man-in-the-street And the lie of Authority Whose buildings grope the sky: There is no such thing as the State And no one exists alone; Hunger allows no choice To the citizen or the police; We must love one another or die." - W.H. Auden, "September 1, 1939" <A HREF=" http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0237/ridgeway.php "TARGET=_blank>Bush Pulls a Grieving Nation Into War </a>VillageVoice <A HREF=" http://reason.com/0210/fe.js.the.shtml "TARGET=_blank>The Forever War: How Long Can an Emergency Last?</a> by Jacob Sullum/reason.com<A HREF=" http://www.telegraphindia.com/1020910/a ... 177740.asp "TARGET=_blank>Unlimited Damage – It's Likely That the Nuclear Taboo May Soon Be Broken in</a> by Achin Vanaik in The Telegraph India<A HREF=" http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/10/opinion/10TUE1.html "TARGET=_blank>The War on Civil Liberties</a> /New York Times <A HREF=" http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... ory=332011 "TARGET=_blank>Bush Intent on Painting Mideast Allies and Enemies as Evil</a> by Robert Fisk in The Independent<A HREF=" http://www.reason.com/0210/fe.ng.freedom.shtml "TARGET=_blank>Freedom for Safety: An Old Trade – and a Useless One</a> by Nick Gillespie/reason.com<A HREF=" http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14070 "TARGET=_blank>The Chicken Hawk Factor</a> by Jim Lobe/alternet.org <A HREF=" http://commondreams.org/views02/0909-06.htm "TARGET=_blank>Ignore the Distractions: Bush Means War</a> by Mike Zmolek @ Common Dreams<A HREF=" http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20020909-3170496.htm "TARGET=_blank>The Challenge to Liberty</a> by Nat Hentoff/washtimes<A HREF=" http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/ ... oody8.html "TARGET=_blank>Serve Your Country? No, Serve Your Fellow Man</a> by Rob Moody 4 strike-the-root.com <A HREF=" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... 2Sep6.html "TARGET=_blank>Government by Op-Ed</a> by Michael Kinsley/ WP<A HREF="http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 55&sType=1 "TARGET=_blank>The other side of the mountain</a> ROOMA MEHRA in ET<A HREF=" http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/04/opini ... 8b9f7eecae "TARGET=_blank>Who's Your Daddy?</a> By MAUREEN DOWD... Cobra2dubya...

Guest · #24

<A HREF=" http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0910/p25s02-wosc.html "TARGET=_blank>Pakistani leader Pervez Musharraf met with Monitor editors in Boston Sunday. Here is the</a> transcript of the entire interview. <A HREF=" http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... 090602.DTL "TARGET=_blank>Dick Cheney, American Warmonger In which the pallid, angry veep fervently urges bombing the hell out of Iraq, because he just can't help it</a> By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist <A HREF=" http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php? ... ad&order=0 "TARGET=_blank>The Most Foolish of Wars</a> by Ghazal Shafiei/yellowtimes.org <A HREF=" http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=28852 "TARGET=_blank>Congressional cowardice and the risks of war</a> : Ellen Ratner/worldnetdaily.com<A HREF=" http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020910-3219524.htm "TARGET=_blank>Bush waiting for 'how' of war</a> By Rowan Scarborough /THE WASHINGTON TIMES <A HREF=" http://www.mediamonitors.net/robertjensen8.html "TARGET=_blank>There's still time for Americans to stop insanity by Robert Jensen/ mediamonitors.net <A HREF="http://www.anti-state.com/sutherlin/sutherlin5.html "TARGET=_blank>Mutually Assured Destruction and Terrorism</a> by Aaron James Sutherlin /Anti-State.Com<A HREF="http://www.mojones.com/web_exclusives/f ... rg_qa.html "TARGET=_blank>Behind the Thin Green Line</a> by Chris Fan/ MotherJones.com <A HREF=" http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/ ... brian5.asp "TARGET=_blank>A Moment of Silence for the First Amendment</a> by Brian O'Neill/post-gazette.com <A HREF=" http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... emp/3/3/5/ "TARGET=_blank>How the U.S. fumbled the post-Sept. 11 ballBy JEFFREY SIMPSON <A HREF=" http://www.workingforchange.com/article ... emid=13785 "TARGET=_blank>All war talk, all the time</a> : America's leaders fail to offer public alternatives to war workingforchange.com<A HREF=" http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Conten ... 8350116695 "TARGET=_blank>Arrogant Washington cabal fuels unease of allies</a> By Thomas Walkom/ thestar.com

Guest · #25

<A HREF=" http://www.msnbc.com/news/806174.asp "TARGET=_blank>Nelson Mandela: The United States of America is a Threat to World Peace </a> ; In a rare interview, the South African demands that George W. Bush win United Nations support before attacking Iraq<A HREF=" http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/pa ... teid=50143 "TARGET=_blank>WE NEED JAW-JAW AND LAW-LAW BEFORE WAR-WAR</a> The Mirror<A HREF=" http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 34,00.html "TARGET=_blank>Schröder's anti-war stance puts him ahead of the pack</a> From Roger Boyes in Lübeck Times Online.co.uk<A HREF=" http://europe.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapc ... index.html "TARGET=_blank>Ornate pool a rarity in war-torn Afghanistan</a> : CNN<A HREF=" http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/e ... ams11.html "TARGET=_blank>Let's pick fights, enemies with prudence :</a> Bruce Ramsey/Times editorial columnist<A HREF=" http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... dsart.html "TARGET=_blank> Children and 9/11: [color="Dark red"] Art Helping Kids Heal</a> National Geographic <A HREF=" http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/hentoff.html "TARGET=_blank>Sept. 11: Will we stay free? </a> Nat Hentoff jewishworldreview.com<A HREF=" http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... amilies_dc "TARGET=_blank>Sept. 11 Families</a> Wary on Civil Rights Threats<A HREF=" www.csmonitor.com/2002/0911/p02s03-wogi.html "TARGET=_blank> Is America the 'good guy'? Many now say, 'No.' </a>

Guest · #26

<A HREF=" http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020930&c=1&s=roy "TARGET=_blank> Fascism's Firm Footprint in India </a> by ARUNDHATI ROY in the Nation<A HREF=" http://www.space.com/businesstechnology ... 20911.html "TARGET=_blank> Update: The War on Terror on Earth, in Orbit and in the Future </a> By Leonard David Senior Space Writer<A HREF=" http://europe.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/asi ... index.html "TARGET=_blank>Japan's economy 'most exposed' in Iraq war</a> : CNN<A HREF=" http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 3rbipi.asp "TARGET=_blank>The Hunting of Steven J. Hatfill</a> : Why are so many people eager to believe that this man is the anthrax killer? by David Tell in Weekly Standard<A HREF=" http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/opini ... e5c4520830 "TARGET=_blank> Justice in the Shadows </a> : NYT Edit<A HREF=" http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/Art ... emp/2/2/7/ "TARGET=_blank>No Iraq war - wink, wink</a> : Whatever Chrétien says about staying out of a fight with: Baghdad, North American defence is so integrated, we're in up to our necks, says MICHAEL BYERS 4 Globe and Mail"India did not want a war, conventional or otherwise, he went on, but it was determined to put an end to acts of terrorism that had claimed thousands of innocent lives..." u say!!! ha! Indian state killed more than 2/3 of them... peace and trade with them could have created a few 'Kashmir' in the fookin' desert... u are inside the border terrorist... Gaandhi assassin... hiMsaavaadii lampaTs... u r the terrorist... Vajpayee also accused Pakistan threatening India with its nuclear weapons. "In our South Asian region, nuclear blackmail has emerged over the last few months as a new arrow in the quiver of state-sponsored terrorism," he said. and who gave the bomb2them...? who forced them or gave an opportunity 2 come outta closet? u did... coz u hiMsaavaadii gandhii assassins wanted it 4 long... since 1951. what a disaster u guys are... and kaisii iss ghaTia desh kii phooTii taQdeer hai... maahi ve... kareIn toh kisse karieN hum shikwa... ...Bhartiya Jaanleva Party... nah jenocidal party gasping 4 legitimacy... hence 2 bhaaNDs as minister sinister... replacing an efficient qualified doctor as health minister... hence this ex-royalty as chief de lumpen-e-Rajisthaan... who hasn't learned the Urdu letter 'zuad'... rhymed zimmedaar as jimmedaar... lol... we know how good a 'leader' she would be [of all these menial 'ram sewak bajrangii']... we know how good she gotta be at the inter-personal relation game... she will be a disaster...

, ear2ear kind...

Guest · #27

<A HREF=" http://counterpunch.org/cockburn0912.html "TARGET=_blank>Donald 'Rummy' Rumsfeld: The Most Dangerous Mon[ster] in Washington </a> CounterPunch<A HREF=" http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... d=21892022 "TARGET=_blank>Say No To Bush </a> SIDDHARTH VARADARAJAN in TOI<A HREF=" http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north125.html "TARGET=_blank>Revisiting 'Rumsfeld’s Rules' of 1974</a> by Gary North @ lewrockwell.com<A HREF=" http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages ... mNo=206955 "TARGET=_blank> [color="Dark Blue"]Like occupied, like occupier </a> By Amira Hass in Ha'aretz<A HREF=" http://www.candidlist.demon.co.uk/gabbn ... flc071.htm "TARGET=_blank>Why Britain Should not Join in the War against Iraq</a> Sean Gabb<A HREF=" http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j091302.html "TARGET=_blank>WHY THIS WAR? : Two reasons: [color="Dark Green"]Oil and Israel (not necessarily in that order) </a> : Justin Raimondo<A HREF=" http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php? ... ad&order=0 "TARGET=_blank>The Dangers of Richard 'WWF' Armitage </a>by Marc Sirois yellow Times<A HREF=" http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=28925 "TARGET=_blank>Bush issues [color="red orange"]veiled ultimatum to U.N. Assembly </a> must enforce Iraq resolutions or lose influence on U.S.<A HREF=" http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/4068519.htm "TARGET=_blank>terrorist threat made by three medical students </a> of Middle Eastern descent ''a hoax'' Friday afternoon and called to end an investigation that shut down one of the Florida's busiest interstate highways all day... [ MuNh Nochuwa omnipresent in the globalvillage... ha!]<A HREF=" http://www.sunspot.net/bal-op.muslims13sep13.story "TARGET=_blank> Let's show the world the power of freedom </a> By David Nassar The Baltimore Sun <A HREF=" http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-liu13sep13.story "TARGET=_blank>You Will Fly the Flag, [color="Dark Red"]and You Will Like It </a> Patriotism is to be found in the heart, not the hand that takes away liberty. LA Times

Guest · #28

<A HREF=" http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/pa ... teid=50143 "TARGET=_blank> [color="Red Orange"]THIS WAR IS A FAILURE</a> By John Pilger in The Mirror<A HREF=" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Sep13.html "TARGET=_blank> [color="Red Orange"]Bush's Worst-Case Scenario </a> <A HREF=" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2255255.stm "TARGET=_blank>[color="Red Orange"] World leaders' mixed response to Bush speech</a><A HREF=" http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml ... 30&s=zunes "TARGET=_blank> [color="Red Orange"]The Case Against War</a> by STEPHEN ZUNES<A HREF=" http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion ... /32140.php "TARGET=_blank> [color="Red Orange"]Editorial: If the issue is human rights</a>madison.com <A HREF=" http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/pa ... teid=50143 "TARGET=_blank>[color="Red Orange"]BUSH IS MAKING MOCKERY OF UN</a>The Mirror...Indeed Zee was first reporting Raajdhaanii accident... [ah he-ABV speak gHalat gHalat as galat] other noose channel in la la land... 'unspooling' the taped noose... lol... but this Baniya bhaiNs ka tabela just ready and waiting 4 it 2 happen 2 beat other4 commercial gains... but other front they'r poor in quality... borders on their caption graphic and other graphics in poor taste... they missed even updating the ticker... lol... proof of us being moonkies on a bullock cart... that too in a reverse gear... Poonam Saxena obsessed with hip sizes... i bet she got a boney one... lol... hence over emphasis... Only a Salmaan KHursheed could match his articulation... or an Aarif Mohammed Khan... and hey geet saRaa huaa gaane wale... Muslims aren't second biggest in noombers but they are also in majority... and they should be the ruling class... b4 some progress happen... all Hindu seem now lampaT 2 me... that includes even Vinod Mehta4all his jingoism and his identification with the Eendoos... lol... If u have Muslims as the ruling class... which u eventually will than... u will have not just better governance but better disaster management... can't expect neething from the lampaT, underdeveloped psyche of the Hindus... only 3% brahmins are hindus and they are ruling the roost...<A HREF=" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Sep13.html "TARGET=_blank> [color="Red Orange"]Never Mind, Mr. Sharon </a>WP<A HREF=" http://argument.independent.co.uk/comme ... ory=333275 "TARGET=_blank>Robert Fisk: [color="Red Orange"]America's case for war is built on blindness, hypocrisy and lies </a>The Independent<A HREF=" http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp ... 0913d.html "TARGET=_blank> [color="Red Orange"]Democrats: Iraq No Imminent Threat, Bush Wants Hussein's Oil</a> By Jeff Johnson CNS noose<A HREF=" http://www.news.scotsman.com/internatio ... 1026082002 "TARGET=_blank> [color="Red Orange"]Saddam trained Bin Laden forces says Blair dossier</a>Scotsman.com [u will lead Oooke 2 be isolated too in the globalvillage... shoulder 2 shoulder... EC and China will be two big powers... <A HREF=" http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/14/inter ... 9376ea28c2 "TARGET=_blank> Israel to Follow U.S. Lead if Iraq Is Attacked </a> By THE NEW YORK TIMES<A HREF=" http://news.independent.co.uk/world/pol ... ory=333405 "TARGET=_blank> Saddam's Iraq is the ideal enemy</a> By Raymond Whitaker The Independent<A HREF=" http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2002_pg3_2 "TARGET=_blank>Op-ed: Shared understandings and deterrence</a> Daily Times<A HREF=" http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020930&s=nichols "TARGET=_blank>[color="Red Orange"]Congress and War</a> by JOHN NICHOLS<A HREF=" http://news.independent.co.uk/world/pol ... ory=333400 "TARGET=_blank> [color="Dark Green"]Fortunes of war await Bush's circle after attacks on Iraq</a> By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles<A HREF=" http://www.antiwar.com/orig/glaser1.html "TARGET=_blank> [color="Red Orange"]Weapons Of Mass Murder</a> by James Glaser<A HREF=" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... irq14.xml/ "TARGET=_blank> Labour attacks Blair's 'gung-ho' war plan</a> By George Jones, Political Editor<A HREF=" http://www.jbs.org/reviewonline/020908_transcript.htm "TARGET=_blank> War for Disarmament? </a>JBS.OrG<A HREF=" http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/ed ... pcom_x.htm "TARGET=_blank> [color="Red Orange"]Public responsible for foreign policy</a> By Constance Hilliard<A HREF=" http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story ... 01,00.html "TARGET=_blank> Iraq first, Iran and China next</a> : Weapons of mass destruction aren't the issue, it's about global control By Dan Plesch<A HREF=" http://reason.com/links/links091202.shtml "TARGET=_blank>[color="Red Orange"] Editors' Links : "A Very Thin Reed"</a> By Sara Rimensnyder[The Carpenter and the Shepard putta woork down the fookin' drain... 2000 and 1400 years of adherence to this two 'sarvahaara religion' gone in vain... 10 million US jews are the real owners of America... on the driving seat full of jaahil 'gentile' bachcha paaloo janta... attacking Iraq all hell brake loose... [color="Dark Green"]Dubya the retarded baboon sayeth ...matter of days and not weeks 2 Soddom Singh... hey CONgressmen and senators... I would say impeach the buffoon... b4 it's too late... so no days and no weeks... just fookin' do it ASAP... or else US and UK doomed... not that all nukes reclaimed from US and dumped into the sea but equal number of slaps 2 all Prezes soo far... and a black patch on each of them...]

Guest · #29

<A HREF=" http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0 ... gold.shtml "TARGET=_blank> An Anti-War Movement of One</a> : A conservative breaks ranks with both the right and left to oppose an Iraq attack BY PHILIP GOLD in seattleweekly.com<A HREF=" http://www.acronym.org.uk/dd/dd66/66op1.htm "TARGET=_blank> Drawing the Line: the Path to Controlling Weapons in Space</a> By Philip E. Coyle and John B. Rhinelander acronym.org.uk<A HREF=" http://www.counterpunch.org/boyle0917.html "TARGET=_blank> Is Bush's War Illegal? Let Us Count the Ways</a> by Francis Boyle counterpunch.org<A HREF=" http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion ... /32340.php "TARGET=_blank> [color="Red Orange"]Editorial: Bribing our way to war</a> : captimes<A HREF=" http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0 ... rish.shtml "TARGET=_blank> Is the Peace Movement Dead?</a> : Looking for the left after 9/11. BY GEOV PARRISH seattleweekly.com<A HREF=" http://www.counterpunch.org/kchristison0917.html "TARGET=_blank> [color="red Orange"]The Other Israel: Voices of Refusal and Dissent</a> by Kathleen Christison former CIA political analyst<A HREF=" http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/260/e ... r%2B.shtml "TARGET=_blank> Spoiled by war</a> A BOSTON GLOBE EDITORIAL<A HREF=" http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/2002 ... 53455s.htm "TARGET=_blank> [color="Orange Red"]Untested administration hawks clamor for war</a> By James Bamford USA Today<A HREF=" http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006DA3B.htm "TARGET=_blank> Arresting questions</a> by Brendan O'Neill spiked-online.com<A HREF=" http://supplysideinvestor.com/showartic ... cleid=2205 "TARGET=_blank> WANNISKI ADDRESSES THE UNITED NATIONS</a> supplysideinvestor.com<A HREF=" http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpr ... 075779.htm "TARGET=_blank> Attack would breed more terrorists</a> BY JOHN B. QUIGLEY twincities.com<A HREF=" http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/new ... _id=671535 "TARGET=_blank> West on brink of Iraq war</a> by Joe Murphy, Evening Standard<A HREF=" http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 10,00.html "TARGET=_blank> America plans PR blitz on Saddam</a> From Tim Reid in Washington 4 timesonline<A HREF=" http://thescotsman.co.uk/opinion.cfm?id=1029612002 "TARGET=_blank> [color="Green"]Bush plays Caligula while Blair strews his path with rose petals</a> The Scotsman<A HREF=" http://www.msnbc.com/news/808595.asp "TARGET=_blank> [color="Dark Blue"]Iraq attack could cost $200 billion</a> : Bush economic czar’s estimate much higher than Pentagon’s By Bob Davis MSNBC/THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

Guest · #30

<A HREF=" http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/09/ ... 64975.html "TARGET=_blank> The world must stop this madman </a> By Maureen Dowd of NYT in SMH [tathagat sayeth it first]<A HREF=" http://www.dawn.com/2002/09/18/op.htm#1 "TARGET=_blank> Memo to UN: You're either with us or you're history </a> By Mahir Ali 4 dawn.com<A HREF=" http://www.free-market.net/spotlight/imperial/ "TARGET=_blank> America's imperial slide toward war/ </a> free-market.net<A HREF=" http://argument.independent.co.uk/comme ... ory=334318 "TARGET=_blank> Robert Fisk: President Bush wants war, not justice </a> - and he'll soon find another excuse for it <A HREF=" http://www.sunspot.net/bal-ed.secrecy18sep18.story "TARGET=_blank> Tomorrow it's us </a> : "Rarely are free speech protections necessary when the message is pleasing, and the messenger is popular. It's the flag-burners and the Klansmen and the pornographers who test our commitment to the notion that, short of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, anything goes. Ideas must be freely exchanged to rise or fall on their own merits -- not through government dictate." <A HREF=" http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 ... 63,00.html "TARGET=_blank> [color="red orange"]Rome, AD ... Rome, DC? </a> : They came, they saw, they conquered, and now the Americans dominate the world like no nation before. But is the US really the Roman empire of the 21st century? And if so, is it on the rise - or heading for a fall? Jonathan Freedland of guardian.co.uk sifts the evidence [its a shoulder2shoulder most idiotic of empires... and it sure is bent upon fall... ]<A HREF=" http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/603/sc8.htm "TARGET=_blank> The imperial moment </a> Galal Nassar 4 Al Ahram Weekly<A HREF=" http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/603/sc71.htm "TARGET=_blank> Doing as the Romans did </a> The notion that the US 'war on terror' will defeat terrorism is a sick joke, writes Tariq Ali 4 Al Ahram Weekly <A HREF=" http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-scheer18se ... 43).column "TARGET=_blank> Robert Scheer: Curses! Dubya Gets Foiled Again </a> : Hussein's nod to inspections may leave Bush without an excuse to go to war /LA Times<A HREF=" http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion ... /32339.php "TARGET=_blank> John Nichols: USA Patriot Act needs dismantling </a> /Capital Times

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