Deedar (Darshan) of Maula

[Muslim First]

ismailis are off to Canada for Deedar of their Maula.

Here is some tips on " What to do at the time of deedar" from an Ismaili
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=4707

Some highlights:

Once Prophet Moses went to Koh-e-Toor and asked, “Oh God! Bless me with your deedar.” God replied and said that first you should bless with the deedar of Noor-e-Ali then you would be able to do my deedar.

“Deedar of Murtaza Ali is the same as deedar of Allah” (Firman)

“Deedar of Imam’s face is the deedar of God” (Pir Shahbuddin Shah)

When Mowla bless us with his deedar and with our Faith (Iman) of Ali-Allah, the Imam showers his blessings by uttering the word “Khanavadan”. At that time every murid should make them ready to listen to those words and absorb in their heart. It is just like blowing the word “Qun”(Be) in one’s ears.

Read the rest of stuff. Very interesting.

No Muslim would do this kind of worship.

[Muslim First]

DARSHAN DEE-O MORAA NAATH
BY SAYYED IMAAM SHAH

ejee darshan deeyo moraa naath, daasee chhu(n) teree darshan deeyo
ejee daasee teree moulaa, tere dar ubhee araj kare chhe joddee haath daasee chhu(n) teree.............1

O my Master grant me the Spiritual Vision (or Spiritual Marriage) for
I am your female devotee. Your female devotee is standing close to you and is supplicating earnestly with her hands joined.I am your female devotee.


ejee haath joddee maulaa araj karu(n) chhu(n) jee hardam rahejo more saath daasee chhu(n) teree................2

Having joined my hands O Lord, I supplicate to you. Upon every breath remain with me. I am your female devotee.


ejee hardam maulaa maaraa reedaah maa(n)he rahejo alagaa ma thaajo ek saas daasee chhu(n) teree................3

Upon every breath my Lord, remain in my heart. Do not be separate from me even for one breath. I am your female devotee.


ejee saamee alagaa nathee tune alagaa karee nav jaannu(n)aa ghatto ghatt bolo chho moraa naath daasee.................4

O Lord you are not separate and I do not regard you as being separate from me. I can feel you speaking in every part of my being.


ejee maulaa tere a(n)tako a(n)t tu(n)heej jaanne maulaa maaraa mottaa chho samarath daasee....................5

O Mowlaa about your limits, only you can fathom. My Mawlaa, You are the Exalted and the Authorised personality.


ejee jugaa jug maulaa maaraa bhagat ugaareeyaa utam sadaa chhe satpa(n)th daasee............................6

Through ages my Mawlaa, You have given salvation to devotees. Exalted and Everlasting is the True Path.


ejee dhru pahelaaj rukhmugat raajaa bhagat kamalaa dhan saath daasee.............................7

The pious Dhru, Pahelaaj and King Rukhmugat were (saved) with the Pious Kamlaa Dhan.


ejee hareeshchandr taaraa raannee ku(n)var roheedaasjee vachane vechaannaa haathoi haath daasee......................8

King Harishchandra, Queen Taaraa Raannee and Prince Rohidas were all sold as a result of your command.


ejee paa(n)ch paa(n)ddav maataa ku(n)taajee kahee-ejee satee ddhropadee chhe saath daasee...........................9

The five Pandvas, their mother Kuntaa are known to be the ones with the saintly Dhropadee (as the liberated ones).


ejee peer sadardeen bujarag kahee-e baar karoddnaa ka(n)th daase................................10

Peer Sadardeen is considered to be distinguished and honoured. He is the Master of the twelve crores of the liberated ones.


ejee annat karodd peer kabeerdeen saathejee tenu(n) var deedhu(n) nakla(n)kee naath daasee..............11

The countless crores of the liberated ones will be with Peer Kabeerdeen. He was given the responsibilty of their salvation by the Master who is the Pure and Spotless.

ejee nar nakla(n)kee jaare navshaa thaashe thaayshe te veeshv ku(n)vaareeno ka(n)th daasee.............12

When the Pure and Perfect will become the bridegroom, He will become the Master of the virgin universe.


ejee te deen maulaa mune paase teddaavjo pakaddee lejo maaro haath daasee............................13

On that day O Mawlaa call (invite, take) me to Your presence and hold my hands (lest I fall into the pitfall of hell).


ejee kahet imaam begam suno maaraa saameejee ettalu maa(n)gu chhu(n) moraa naath daasee..................14

Imaam Begum supplicates, O my Lord listen. I am only asking you for this much (for Your protection and care).

[Aarif]

Br. MF,

Here is some more of it. Also, look how much emphasis is given on payment of religious tax which is 12.5%...

That the descendant of Ali and Muhammed is He (present Imam) and if you do not recognize Him you will go to Hell.

In every Imam it is the same Noor of Ali and the scriptures bear that out of 40 Siparas (parts) of the Quran are a proof of that and verily 30 are in this world

The Noor in the Imam of the Time is the same that was the cause of creation and really is from the very Noor you have been given the Satpanth, nay, even the Quran originated from that Noor.

(Allah has sent) four Kitabs (scriptures) - Tawrat, Zabur, Injil, Furqan - and four Hindu scriptures (the Veds) - the right Guru is mentioned in those scriptures (OR Imam Shah has studied those scriptures). That knowledge was sent by Allah and it is presently in the Quran.

17. Momins, despite being aware of this Ghar (Satpanth), if you ignore it then you will not achieve salvation and will deserve Hell (Dozakh) for this Ghar is really the proof of the infinite God and never think twice about serving Him.

18. The Gods such as Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshvar are all one in this Satpanth and are manifest in Ali's progeny and is present with us in this world.
And it is because of that promise Brahmaji has been able to continue Satpanth..


21. Thus many eras (Kalaps) have passed and the four Kalaps have passed and the four Kalaps finally prevailed, of which three have already passed and in the past three, Brahma was obeying Vishnu's Firman


So Momins, do not fall behind in your Dasond for many souls have already achieved salvation and these were the souls who had recognized the Imam as their Lord.

28. Without Dasond there is no salvation so heed Me Momins, for I am being emphatic. This Joog is the last stage where you can achieve salvation; then why not make an extra effort to achieve it.

29. Dasond is a tenth of your earnings for the Imam and that is for his material upkeep and food (ahar) and the fortieth of your earning is for Pir, for Pir has dedicated His life for you.

Those Momins who will be dubious about paying Dasond will have no material, physical or familial peace. These are the Momins who have not walked the path of Satpanth and I am beseeching them

Momins, be satisfied with the food you get; do not hunger for more. The one who has created this earth is Ali, Who will give you your Roji (i.e. sustenance).

Serve the Imam through which you will evolve your soul for He is the One who helped you whilst you were in your mother's womb and He looked after you then.

Those who will not serve Ali, verily they have lost this Avtar (the purpose they were sent for) so beware, O Momins, for you will not come back as a human being.

Those who are not steadfast do not achieve much. Again, there is only one Creator and He has created us to serve Him. Our Prophet Muhammed is (a manifestation of) Brahma.

Prophet Muhammed Mustafa was created to complete a mission. Brahma and Muhammed are one and Vishnu became his son-in-law.

The true followers of Brahma are the ones who follow the religion properly. They take alms after accomplishing their purpose and thus they do not owe anything to anyone.

77. Prophet Muhammed is like Brahmaji and the Satgur's Noor is descendant from Him. Satgur's Noor has come from the Heaven and He has taught the world the right religion.


78. Pir Satgur Noor's progeny is Pir Shams and they have introduced you to the present Imam who is really Mowla Murtaza Ali.

He (Prophet Muhammed) paid respects to Hazrat Ali, upon which He opened His eyes and they mutually saw each other and Hazrat Ali smiled at the Prophet.

85. Since that day Hazrat Ali opened His mouth and has become our leader (check this word). He has told us the secrets of here and after and His words are the gist of the four scriptures.

86. Prophet Muhammed had understood Hazrat Ali's greatness and congratulated His mother for being chosen to be the person through which God would manifest.

87. The Prophet first assured himself of Hazrat Ali and got His Holy Didar. He then introduced Ali to the Momins and those who recognized Him indeed achieved salvation.

88. So Momins, serve that Lord and be thankful for Ali is Allah and do not ever doubt it.

Acknowledge Ali as Allah and Pir is on the same footing as the Nabi. Thus follow what we say to you and that will ensure that you and your family will flourish.

Source: http://www.ismaili.net/granths/chetwan.html

NOW LET'S HEAR FROM PARDESI WHAT HE WANTS TO SAY ABOUT THIS...

[jawanmardan]

Aarif,

Deedar forms a central aspect of the Gnostic ideas underlying Ism'aili Islam. No one on this board has demonstrated a through understanding of Gnosticism. Religious tithes are entirely voluntary and go toward supporting the infrastructure of our community, which is arguably the most advanced, and well managed in the Islamic world, the Aga Khan Development Network is required reading for master degree programs at the London School of Political science and economics, Johns Hopkins, Harvard and many others.

The Canadian Jammat has much to be thankful for from the guidance of their Imam, they came as refugees to Canada from Africa, and Afghanistan many penniless who couldn't even afford the flight over which was provided by charted planes from Uganda and Kabul, many thousands were victims of torture under the Soviets and Taliban, they had no where to pray and gather but schools, and accommodating churches, and synagogues. In the space of less that 30 short years are now ranked amongst the most highly educated, and prosperous communities in Canada.

The question is not based on the statement "No Muslim would do this kind of worship", but instead how those Muslims who are intolerant of others must learn to accept diversity, for no matter how hard we tried to practice like them, or believe as they believe, it is not until we are completely exterminated (which has been tried so many times in history), that the nay sayers will be satisfied.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

To say that Aarif, or anybody else on this board for that matter, wants to exterminate the Ismailis is stretching it a bit. No doubt Aga Khan has done a lot for the community and I can only wish that there were more like him in the Muslim world. The contention is not what he has done but what his followers claim him to be. They are welcome to believe in him as God or prophet or Imam or Vishnu Avataar. However, If you claim that this is what the quran says or what Islam teaches, then you will end up thinking that people are out to exterminate you.

[anajmi]

Deedar forms a central aspect of the Gnostic ideas underlying Ism'aili Islam.

Is there such a thing as "Ismaili Islam"?

Religious tithes are entirely voluntary

That is not what the other Ismailis on this board claim. They say that paying this tithe is a command in the quran and point to the ayah in the surah about war booty.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan.

Is this the correct definition of Gnosticism?

"Gnosticism (Greek: γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge) refers to a diverse, syncretistic religious movement consisting of various belief systems generally united in the teaching that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world created by an imperfect god, the demiurge, who is frequently identified with the Abrahamic God."

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

[anajmi]

Consider a "syncretistic" religious movement. I didn't know what is syncretistic. Again wikipedia helped. But if jawanmardan could confirm its meaning that would be great.

"Syncretism consists of the attempt to reconcile disparate or contradictory beliefs, often while melding practices of various schools of thought. The term may refer to attempts to merge and analogize several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, and thus assert an underlying unity allowing for an inclusive approach to other faiths."

Why does man need to do this? If this is done, it should be done solely to improve relations between different religions and not to create a new religion. This is my point of view. I am assuming that we are all believers in God. God will communicate with his creation through one way or another. He will send down commandments and practices and how he should be worshipped. That is true for all religions which believe in a God. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. Did God make a mistake that humans have to now create a new religion by combining them all together? No.

God has sent down his commandments to be followed as is. It is upto the humans to figure out which is the correct set of commandments. It is upto the humans to figure out if it is the quran, the bible, the torah or the geeta which is the word of God. You cannot create a khichdi and then practice it assuming that that is what is going to please god. Now, this does not mean that Hindus and Muslims and Jews and Christians cannot get live together. Ofcourse they can as they have been doing forever. Islam doesn't say kill the hindu and hinduism doesn't say kill the Muslim. Humans kill because of their egos.

Competition is in human nature. Even if we all have a khichdi, we will fight that, my khichdi is better than your khichdi.

[Momin]

Hi MF, Aarif, et etc.

Think you guys are missing the point...

and have pervertly misunderstood the concept Shia/Ismaili concept of Imamate in Islam.

We can all copy and paste from other websites...

The majority of the "so-called" Muslims (Mustaalis, Ithnaasheris, Sunnis) I know, know about, or have encountered, do not practice anything close Islam, yet they proudly proclaim that they are (so-called) "Muslims"

Have you ever paused for moment and thought to yourself in what context was the below copy and pasted text (ginan) taking place, and why whatever was mentioned in it, said?

How about the other Muslims of the Nizari Ismaili Shia persuasions/traditions from Central Asia, Persia, Arab world, etc. at the same time. Here's a challenge to you...what works did they produce?

Did not Allah (swt) give us intellect?

Wish you luck!

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

The contradiction is in the figment of your own imagination ! You have NOt been able to answer questions raised ! You are merely skirmishing with words borrowed from MF scooters Inc !....The Koran says: “O ye! Who believe, obey God and obey the Apostle and those among you invested with authority” (4:59).

It is an undoubted fact that every apostle is sent to be obeyed by his people as is obvious from the following verse:

“And We never sent an apostle but he who ought to be obeyed by God’s permission” (4:64).

Inasmuch as the extent of the obedience is not restricted, the last verse should be treated as an injunction for an absolute and complete obedience to the Prophet's legitimate and rightful successors and all else you say is worthless and just Wahabbi rhetoric !

zn

[znanwalla]

"...and Most Excellent is the Mawla (Master), and Most Excellent the Helper" (8:40)..." so what is the argument? whom should people believe? their prophet who brough them Islam or the non-believers who are enemies of the Prophet?

In order to establish who the Imam is to the Ismailis, they all should understand first their concept of creation since Adam at least, at the minimum and I have told them so but they are blank on this subject !

" And it was NOT vouchsafed to any mortal that God should speak to him unless (it be) by REVELATION OR from behind a VEIL OR that HE sendeth a Messenger..." (Sura al Shura)

"SAY; were the sea to be the ink for the words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if WE were to bring the like thereof to help..." (Sura al Kahf )

So is the above unclear?

"O ye who have faith! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach
(al-wasila) unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that ye
may prosper." - Holy Quran 5:35

The key word here is "Wasilah" which means "medium" or "means of approach".
The Wasilah of Allah is the Prophet in his age and the Imam in his time and this is not a new phenomena either and goes back in time to Hazrat Adam and Ebrahim and his progeny.

It may be asked, why do the Prophets and Imams have this prerogative and
not each individual?

The reason has to do with the basic concept of Islam or "submission to
God's will".

While we may call ourselves "Muslims", a "muslim" in the true
meaning of the word is one whose soul is totally and perfectly submitted
to the Will of Allah at all times.

Average, fallible human beings cannot claim
to be this as we commit sins all the time and our minds constantly waiver
from the remembrance of Allah every moment.

Only purifiied souls such as
the Prophet Muhammad and the Imams of his Ahl al-Bayt (whom God has
purified by Quran 33:33) are "muslim" in the true sense; they are
perfectly submitted to God's Will and only they can truly possess a direct,
unmediated relationship with Allah by virtue of the divine closeness
( walayah) of their souls with Allah.

We can only hope to one day attain
this spiritual state of pure submission, pure islam in the spiritual sense but this potentiality to actualization needs an Instructor from the family of the Prophet's pure progeny...it is outside the ability of a Mullahs or Muftis !

zn

[znanwalla]

So not does the Quran say that Mowla is the most Excellent helper and Master but even the prophet said so in many of his own ahadith and during his own public declaration at Khum e Ghadir which they are not even denying but mis interpreting by saying that the Prophet meant to say "Ali was the friend of the Muslims"....now what logic can there exist in such a conclusion? None ! Was Ali ever the enemy of the Mulsim or against them?

Intercession is to be seen as a ray of hope, in whose light forgiveness can be sought.

A glance at the pages of history reveals that even companions of the prophet (peace be on him) used to ask him in their own lifetime, for his intercession and Trimidhi relates from Anas b Malik: .."I asked the Prophet to intercede for me on the Day of Judgment. He said:.." I shall do so"!...so I asked him, "where will I find you?"...he replied: "By the side of the sirat".

Most of them make the error of committing the assimilation of the dissimulation to what it dissimulates and thus it tends to lead to a kind of Docetism and this is primarily because of an imperfect perception as the squint eyed folks tend to see one object as two and remain confined to "appearances'...but Allah says clearly....

" as a guide to mankind WE sent down the Quran where it says to seek signs and proofs of Allah" ....

but then they found it fit to create their own texts nonetheless even when Allah says opnely HE had sent down the Quran and so whose Quran can we all follow? theirs or what the Prophet left behind for the Umma ?....everyone has choices and freewill !

MAN KUNTUM MAWLAHU FA ALIUN MAWLAHU...Why would anyone who says he belongs to the Umma of Muhamad not abide by this direction...it is clear ! HE OF WHOM I AM MAWLA, ALI IS HIS MAWLA !

And the Quran supports this also !

Zn

[anajmi]

I don't believe Aga Khan is a rightful successor of the prophet. We have already seen that Allah has called him foolish and unjust in the quran.

[znanwalla]

Did anyone ask you to believe in our Imam ? No ! none of us here are trying to convince you to believe in the Aga Khan? None of us ! Infact we prefer that you don't and that is one primary reason why we are not as much open to conversion whilst you folks are desperate.....It is you who is trying to convince us to believe in you more ....so you please follow your Imam ! ....let others follow their own !....and be happy !.....or are you not happy with what you have?....zn

[znanwalla]

So you did read nah? then why are you taking so much interest then? any reason?....so follow your own path !if Allah had called our Imam "unjust or foolish" then I asked you how? and you haven't answered ! then I asked you if you are willing to say the same about Adam, Abraham, Moses , jesus and Muhamad - you said No ! so then you are contradicting yourself....the Imam only becomes unjust and foolish if all the others are in the same state or categorization but you are unwilling to concede...so you are a Liar and a slanderer !....logical conclusion !....obviously you are making biased and malicious distinctions to suit your agenda....there is no basis !...zn

[znanwalla]

"Another proof of how the light, the real existence of the Prophets and Imams is hidden in the "Word" , is mentioned in the Qur'an regarding Hazrat Ibrahim:

"And he (Ibrahim) made it (i.e., the Light of Prophethood and Imamat) a Word enduring among his children, that they may return (to Him)" (43:28).

That is Hazrat Ibrahim entrusted his children with all the attributes and characteristics of Prophethood and Imamat in the form of a pure and wisdom-filled Word, which continues in his progeny till the Resurrection.

Further, it should be known that the spiritual and luminous existence of the Prophet also was hidden in the pure Word, as God says: "So keep your duty to Allah, O men of understanding! O ye who believe! Now Allah has sent down unto you a dhikr (remembrance) who is a messenger reciting unto you the clear verses of Allah, so that those who believe and do good deeds may be brought from darkness into light." (65:10-11).

zn

[anajmi]

Please do not compare your Imam to Adam, Abraham, Moses , jesus and Muhamad. You have yourself accepted that your Imam is neither a prophet nor a messenger. The quran has referred only to your Imam as foolish and unjust. Not Allah's prophets and messengers. The ayah that you quoted applies to your Imam only.

[Aarif]

JM,

Br. Anajmi has written an excellent post in reply to yours. Our debate is with Ismailis like Pardesi who start with topics on Prophets with an intention of ending up justifying noor based on Nass. Not only that, they use Quran to prove that their Imam is a rightous owner of noor as a progeny of the porphet(pbuh). Also, Ismailis compare prophets and Imams with Hindu gods like Brahma and Vishnu. Brahma is a god based on Hindu mythology.. There is no historical evidence of his existence whatsoever. Apart from that I find that the Ismailis have cooked a khichdi of religions. They have mixed up Pandavas with Panjatan, Prophet with Brahma, Ali with Vishnu etc. No doubt one would need a master's degree to understand all this. Also, let me tell you something very basic about religion. Religion is for the masses and not for the classes. Hence, it has to be as simple as possible to understand and follow. A religion is made complicated by people to serve their selfish motives and keep the common man from away from understanding its crux...

We will keep debating as long as Ismailis will try to prove that their faith is justified in the light of Islam and Quran...

[jawanmardan]

Isma'ili have been subjected to violence, cohesion, and the mob mentality throughout our history including at present: Thousands of men and boys missing in Afghanistan, mass graves, closure of prayer halls, restrictions on travel and communication with our Imam, discrimination against community members, Swat valley mass exodus in Pakistan, mob violence against prayer halls including arson in Punjab, NWF.

We are a people with a vibrant set of values, a sense of humor, cuisine, traditions, and history. All the miniscule pieces that make a historic community, all of which is shown no respect. It's utterly astonishing! made all the worse by the history of intimidation involved.

As I say until Muslims learn to embrace diversity and continue to live as if they are fighting 9th century Jihads against heretics; there will be no progress toward creating a better environments for future generations born into this community.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

This needs to work both ways. You told me sometime back that Ismailis do not invite others into their tariqa. Why? You should accept the diversity too. Let the wahhabis come into your jamatkhana and let them offer namaz over there. Will you? Besides, my best friends from my school days are Ismailis. We've spent days eating in each other's houses. Some of my best days were with an Ismaili friend of mine. If I were to meet you outside, I'd probably invite you into my home. No one want to exterminate you. You want us to simply agree with everything you say on this board as well, which gives us an opportunity to tell people what is wrong with them. I would never say anything about Aga Khan or Ismailism to my friend. That means I have accepted diversity.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

We don't need a Charlatan like you to come to the prophet's house ! it is that simple !It would be a disgrace if we allowed that to happen !

You have already been given a detailed explanation in this regard and so don't chase your tail, repeating the same topics over and over again....

You cannot enter the Prophet's house ! You cannot enter Hazrat Ali and Bibi Fatima's House either ! So you just go to your own masjid and have your "unmediated' relationship with your imaginary God "partnering' different attributes to HIm - the Supreme , who stands alone and is Unique and yet you imagine HIM and partner with him all kinds of different imaginative things....and why would you even want to now come to our prophet's house when you have betrayed him and his Ahl al Bayt?...No reason !...so go and find peace (if you can) in your own mullah oriented masjid and with your interpolations, now that I find you have also called your own Imams as "useless" and you just told us that you have abandoned them too....we don't allow worthless people to enter the Prophet's house ! ...zn

[jawanmardan]

anajmi,

I'm not accusing you personally of anything; I am glad your able to form friendships beyond sectarian lines, I don't have any close Isma'ili friends. My three best friends are Italian, Singaporean Chinese, and a Syrian from a Sunni family.

I don't expect you to believe everything Isma'ili on this board say is truth if you did you would be Isma'ili which would be absurd. I also don't expect you to ignore Isma'ili perspectives on faith when you feel they undermine your understanding of Islam.

However the manor of conversation on this forum is hardly constructive, does not employ scholarship, ad most particularly takes on the garb of antagonistic, disrespectful polemic. This thread was started as a polemic, not as a discussion.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

I also don't expect you to ignore Isma'ili perspectives on faith when you feel they undermine your understanding of Islam.

Are you talking about Ismaili perspectives presented by the likes of znan who mis-represent the quran and call it a fabrication? Is that the true Ismaili perspective? If you call the quran a fabrication, isn't that truly undermining the undestanding of Islam by any muslim?

However the manor of conversation on this forum is hardly constructive

Again, we cannot have a constructive conversation that is based on lies and misrepresentations. Do you want me to point them out for you? If you talk only about yourself as representing Ismailism, then we might start having a constructive conversation. Are you willing to do that?

[anajmi]

znan,

You don't know about the one and true God because you are simply referring to fabrications. We have the true book of Allah. We know Allah's qualities. What you have is fabrications. You have only been quoting fabrications. Have you quoted anything other than fabrications on this board yet? No. So you do not have the true word of Allah. You don't know about Allah and his prophet.

[znanwalla]

Najma.......just keep on riding your scooters !

Frankly it is the other way around ! The Supreme God stands alone ! HE is Unique ! Nameless ! you cannot even describe HIm....wherever your Intellect and reasoning reaches, it is everything EXCEPT HIM ! and this is what you have not understood !

Thus what you are describing and taking to be God is everything EXCEPT the Supreme God !
The originator ! (Al-Mubdi)....this Gnosis is outside your comprehension or even understanding !

You have misunderstood TAWHID ! You have not clearly understood the UNITY of God !......you are now simply ascribing HIm with "partners" through your sheer ignorance ! You are thus in breach of Real Tawhid !....the fact is that the Clarity of Divine Revelation is blinding to your eyes which are accustomed to the darkness of your own confusion !

That is why folks like you have remained stagnant ! You haven't used your God given faculties to be able to live in HIS Light and so it is the same as you having no sense and that is why I said you were an Imbecile.....you are supporting things to be "like God" but actually knowing that God who is the Unique source of all Creation is outside your ability and comprehension and so you are simply equating imaginations with the Creator Himself and boasting of an unmediated relationship and that too using Interpolations and man made texts .....zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

You do not have the Book of Allah ! What you have is just a "like thereof" - the Book of Allah is complete, clear and flawless ! and in any case when Sura Yaseen was revealed, the translation "clear Book" cannot mean to refer to YOUR Text or any other Book as it never even existed then !

Also Sura 36 means Naboowat was somewhere around 35% only - not even complete ! so how can either Book be there? so it is clear that the relevant ayat 36:12 refers not to the Book or register as you have tried to convince us so desperately....the degree to which you have invested in your own subjectivity shows the vehemence of your own reactions and in not being able to understand islam or the Quran or the Prophet (peace be on him).....zn

[anajmi]

znan,

I am not trying to convince you about anything. i am just telling you that which you yourself are saying. You are saying that Hazrat Uthman fabricated the quran to remove references to your Imam Mubeen. So 36:12 cannot refer to your Imam Mubeen. Also, when you say 36:12 you are referring to our quran, not your quran. And you've already said that our quran is a fabrication. So show us something which is not a fabrication. Otherwise you are like your Hazar Imam, foolish and unjust.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

When did I say that? please show me ! The Quran talks clearly of the Imamat and the Imam !Imamat has been present since the time of Adam and Abraham and their progeny and I also asked how the ayats of Ale e Imran get fulfilled?.....You have no answers !

You are talking as if Imamat just started yesterday ! No it did not ! and so whomsoever Allah appointed as IMAMS were obviously the Manifest Imams of their time and age....and so the ayah confirms Imamat as being ordained by Allah ! That is why i said you have failed to enjoy the grace of God.....you are making undue distinctions ! You are living in a state of delusion !

And now you concede that Sura Yaseen verse 12 does NOT refer to the Book and so by default your script writers obfuscated here too to suppress the truth !

zn

[anajmi]

The ayahs that you talk about are fabrications as you yourself have admitted. All ayahs about Imam Mubeen are fabrications as you are referring to fabricated texts as you yourself call them.

[znanwalla]

How can they be fabrications in the real Quran as revealed by Allah and as passed on by Muhamad to his legitimate successor? nah ! Your text is fabricated and so it has become a like thereof and which you now falsely claim as Quran...it is the Quran of the Amazon as per your own concession just made....so any likeness or similarity to the the real Quran is just coincidental.....and I have been clear in this regard umpteen times....I do not follow your interpolations ! even most of your ahadith are fabricated and your own scholars have confirmed this....you are the biggest farce one can find around us !...zn