In Toronto most of us who want to do qurbani have to take "raza" from Amil Saheb. What if I do "qurbani" without raza. Will Al mighty ALLAH accept my sacrifice?
Please, respond
Mansoor
Raza
Re: Raza
When I last spoke to Allah, he said that he does not much care for these pagan rituals. But if the animal agrees to be sacrificed, then he might waive the punishment he would otherwise impose on all who deliberately take life that he created and justify it in the name of service to him.
So, I suggest you take raza from the animal you wish to sacrifice; if he agrees than you might escape certain punishment. As for your amil, tell him to go and jump into a lake.
That will teach you to ask a moronic question. Remember, if you buy into the Bohra belief structure, then Amil's raza will be required and Allah will not accept your sacrifice without it. But if you act against your beliefs than, Allah help you.
Let me give you advise. Junk the belief system. It is all artificial anyway. Adopt a new one. Whatever you agree to believe in will be true, by definition. As the late lamented Raj Kapoor said in one of his films pointing to a murti, "Na maano to patthar, mano to bhagwan".
All beliefs are true for whoever holds them.
So, I suggest you take raza from the animal you wish to sacrifice; if he agrees than you might escape certain punishment. As for your amil, tell him to go and jump into a lake.
That will teach you to ask a moronic question. Remember, if you buy into the Bohra belief structure, then Amil's raza will be required and Allah will not accept your sacrifice without it. But if you act against your beliefs than, Allah help you.
Let me give you advise. Junk the belief system. It is all artificial anyway. Adopt a new one. Whatever you agree to believe in will be true, by definition. As the late lamented Raj Kapoor said in one of his films pointing to a murti, "Na maano to patthar, mano to bhagwan".
All beliefs are true for whoever holds them.
Re: Raza
Mansoor,
Raza is a feudal concept, it should have no place in any human system - religious or otherwise.
Even if you buy into the bohra belief structure, raza is not part of it. It is an invented instrument of control - to keep the sheep in line.
The problem is that the perverse and petty priesthood has turned you into salves (of the Sayedna), and made you think and behave like slaves. Only slaves ask for raza. All the rest use their heads.
Raza is a feudal concept, it should have no place in any human system - religious or otherwise.
Even if you buy into the bohra belief structure, raza is not part of it. It is an invented instrument of control - to keep the sheep in line.
The problem is that the perverse and petty priesthood has turned you into salves (of the Sayedna), and made you think and behave like slaves. Only slaves ask for raza. All the rest use their heads.
Re: Raza
I hate this concept of RAZA more than anything.They have poisoned the brains of Bohris in such a manner that if they do anything without Raza they are scared of getting worse result of it at the same time if some one has done any work without raza everyone start taunting him.Its really pity.May be very soon they will ask us to take raza to have sex with our wife ...lol
Re: Raza
Br mansoor Your amil saheeb is a BIG FET BAKROO, i suggest he is right BAKROO for your qurbani!And for that ALLAH will bless you. I promise you will never ever need a RAZA in future!
Come on YAAR!! Science have conquer the universe,are you still in this RAZA CHAKAR! This is the same system used during the SLAVE PERIOD and now in our mordern era ON POOR BOHRAS! My brother Mansoor stay firm for the basic value of human dignity, which our forefathers fought and spill blood for us so that we live and enjoy FREEDOM.
Come on YAAR!! Science have conquer the universe,are you still in this RAZA CHAKAR! This is the same system used during the SLAVE PERIOD and now in our mordern era ON POOR BOHRAS! My brother Mansoor stay firm for the basic value of human dignity, which our forefathers fought and spill blood for us so that we live and enjoy FREEDOM.
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Average Bohra
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Re: Raza
The Dai is not a Prophet, and far removed from the lineage. In fact, no connection to the lineage.....
Re: Raza
Hur,
Is that all you've to say in defence of raza? Qiyam, you know, had more spunk.
The prophet lived a very simple and Spartan life, but that did not prevent the Imams from enjoying an extravagant and posh lifestyle. Ditto for recent dais. How come they didn't/don't do what the prophet used to do?
This selective invoking of prophet's praxis is not an argument. It's deception.
Besides, the prophet's and imams' times were different. That was a different zeitgeist. Perhaps raza had relevance and justification then, owing to dire social and political conditions.
But today the very idea of raza is antithetical to human dignity and rights we have come to enjoy. Moreover, the dawat is not under siege, and that it should continue to use "raza" is not only unconscionable but also highly cynical.
Of course, with porus I'd also the question the "pagan ritual" of qurbani - but that's another discussion altogether.
Is that all you've to say in defence of raza? Qiyam, you know, had more spunk.
The prophet lived a very simple and Spartan life, but that did not prevent the Imams from enjoying an extravagant and posh lifestyle. Ditto for recent dais. How come they didn't/don't do what the prophet used to do?
This selective invoking of prophet's praxis is not an argument. It's deception.
Besides, the prophet's and imams' times were different. That was a different zeitgeist. Perhaps raza had relevance and justification then, owing to dire social and political conditions.
But today the very idea of raza is antithetical to human dignity and rights we have come to enjoy. Moreover, the dawat is not under siege, and that it should continue to use "raza" is not only unconscionable but also highly cynical.
Of course, with porus I'd also the question the "pagan ritual" of qurbani - but that's another discussion altogether.
Re: Raza
Dear Humsafar,
I love your selective method of referencing the sunnah...when it suits your ideas. You seem to forget or ignore them when they don't.
When it suits your agenda...you quote the actions and life of the Prophet and Imams. When it doesn't..well then its "But today the very idea of raza is antithetical to human dignity and rights we have come to enjoy." This is equivalent to the the Ismaili justification for not praying the formal salat.
The Prophet lived a simple life by choice. But he never stated or prevented anyone from being wealthy...as long as you were humble. Imam Ali, Imam Hasan and Imam Husain were very well off...but still lived simple lives. We're they wrong in accumulating wealth?
Raza has nothing to do with lifestyle and wealth, as you so deceptively changed the subject to. It is to give respect and dignity to the right of authority in your life. This not only applies to the Prophet or Imam...but in the family, relations, friends etc. As we're growing up, we ask permission of our parents constantly, as both an act of obedience and respect. This is why the Prophet said not to speak against or above your parents. The elder has the right to speak and the younger should not speak unless spoken to or given permission by the elder. Both of these are TIMELESS traditions of manners taught by the Prophet.
The Prophet and Imams have a higher authority than your parents. These rights are discussed in detail by Imam Zaynul Abidin in his Risala al'Huqqat (Treaty of Rights). The Prophet said there are blessing in asking permission (RAZA).
In the case of the Dai or any Marajah...the right of the Imam is given to the person in the Imam's authority.
I love your selective method of referencing the sunnah...when it suits your ideas. You seem to forget or ignore them when they don't.
When it suits your agenda...you quote the actions and life of the Prophet and Imams. When it doesn't..well then its "But today the very idea of raza is antithetical to human dignity and rights we have come to enjoy." This is equivalent to the the Ismaili justification for not praying the formal salat.
The Prophet lived a simple life by choice. But he never stated or prevented anyone from being wealthy...as long as you were humble. Imam Ali, Imam Hasan and Imam Husain were very well off...but still lived simple lives. We're they wrong in accumulating wealth?
Raza has nothing to do with lifestyle and wealth, as you so deceptively changed the subject to. It is to give respect and dignity to the right of authority in your life. This not only applies to the Prophet or Imam...but in the family, relations, friends etc. As we're growing up, we ask permission of our parents constantly, as both an act of obedience and respect. This is why the Prophet said not to speak against or above your parents. The elder has the right to speak and the younger should not speak unless spoken to or given permission by the elder. Both of these are TIMELESS traditions of manners taught by the Prophet.
The Prophet and Imams have a higher authority than your parents. These rights are discussed in detail by Imam Zaynul Abidin in his Risala al'Huqqat (Treaty of Rights). The Prophet said there are blessing in asking permission (RAZA).
In the case of the Dai or any Marajah...the right of the Imam is given to the person in the Imam's authority.
Re: Raza
Hur, you refrenced prophet/imams first. I was merely trying to pay you back in your own coin. Of course, wealth/lifestyle has nothing to with raza. It was meant to illustrate that your selective use of prophet's praxis is untenable. I don't need to reference sunna to prove that raza is wrong. That i'm a free human being (and my sense of indivdual self-worth) is enough to demolish it.I love your selective method of referencing the sunnah...when it suits your ideas. You seem to forget or ignore them when they don't.
When it suits your agenda...you quote the actions and life of the Prophet and Imams.
And it is pretty rich if not ironic that a person whose business it is to support and defend religious perversion should accuse me of deception.
By the same token, he never prevented anyone from not taking raza. He did not enjoin "raza" on muslisms.The Prophet lived a simple life by choice. But he never stated or prevented anyone from being wealthy...as long as you were humble.
What do you mean by "the right of authority". As for respect and dignity - this is what he/she loses when a bohra goes asking for raza.It is to give respect and dignity to the right of authority in your life.
This is all fine - but respect and obedience must be earned, not imposed and made mandatory as it is being done now.As we're growing up, we ask permission of our parents constantly, as both an act of obedience and respect. This is why the Prophet said not to speak against or above your parents. The elder has the right to speak and the younger should not speak unless spoken to or given permission by the elder. Both of these are TIMELESS traditions of manners taught by the Prophet.
I personally wouldn't accept that.The Prophet and Imams have a higher authority than your parents.
Only if it is voluntary and comes from the heart. If it is imposed and used as a tool of harassment then, I'd assume, it would be sinful.The Prophet said there are blessing in asking permission (RAZA).
I guess the dai has the raza of the imam to fleece the community.In the case of the Dai or any Marajah...the right of the Imam is given to the person in the Imam's authority.
Re: Raza
Dear Humsafar,
The problem between our points of view is that your using your own life opinion and ethos to dictate what you practice and believe. You refer to this as "human and individual self-worth". This however is NOT the basis for living by Allah command. Allah commands us to follow His faith and edicts..both exposed through the Quran and the Traditions of His representative (Prophet and Imams). You, as a muslim, are NOT given the right to select what you like or don't. You have the free-will to choose as you like...BUT DON'T PUSH YOUR FREE-WILL AS ISLAMIC VALUES.
In my post I clearly denote what I believe and state is backed ups by the actions of the Prophet and Imams...not as I see fit.
My accussation of deception towards you was meant to be condensing based on what you wrote of me.
Regarding the issue at hand..RAZA:
"By the same token, he never prevented anyone from not taking raza. He did not enjoin "raza" on muslisms."
---This is completely false...and explain why you think the way you do. Every action of meaning was practiced through raza of the Prophet. Whether it was leading a prayer to sitting to eat...raza was taken by the companions.
Respect and dignity are not earned item but directed manner that muslims are taught to adhere to. A Jew cursed and spat and threw garbage on the Prophet...and the Prophet told his companions that he is my friend. The Jew seeing this accepted Islam. This is the respect and dignity the Prophet taught us to give to our enemies. How should you respect those you love. The Prophet said even if you parents are unjust to you...you must still respect them and not speak ill of them!!! This is what is meant by right of authority...this is akhalaq.
You state you would not accept the Prophet and Imams having a higher authority than your parents. Fine. You are deny the command of Allah, the Prophet and Imams...for all have stated this as a part of Tawhid.
You wrote regarding raza "Only if it is voluntary and comes from the heart. If it is imposed and used as a tool of harassment then, I'd assume, it would be sinful."
My friend...I can only say that your faith and beliefs are also JUST AN ASSUMPTION.
The problem between our points of view is that your using your own life opinion and ethos to dictate what you practice and believe. You refer to this as "human and individual self-worth". This however is NOT the basis for living by Allah command. Allah commands us to follow His faith and edicts..both exposed through the Quran and the Traditions of His representative (Prophet and Imams). You, as a muslim, are NOT given the right to select what you like or don't. You have the free-will to choose as you like...BUT DON'T PUSH YOUR FREE-WILL AS ISLAMIC VALUES.
In my post I clearly denote what I believe and state is backed ups by the actions of the Prophet and Imams...not as I see fit.
My accussation of deception towards you was meant to be condensing based on what you wrote of me.
Regarding the issue at hand..RAZA:
"By the same token, he never prevented anyone from not taking raza. He did not enjoin "raza" on muslisms."
---This is completely false...and explain why you think the way you do. Every action of meaning was practiced through raza of the Prophet. Whether it was leading a prayer to sitting to eat...raza was taken by the companions.
Respect and dignity are not earned item but directed manner that muslims are taught to adhere to. A Jew cursed and spat and threw garbage on the Prophet...and the Prophet told his companions that he is my friend. The Jew seeing this accepted Islam. This is the respect and dignity the Prophet taught us to give to our enemies. How should you respect those you love. The Prophet said even if you parents are unjust to you...you must still respect them and not speak ill of them!!! This is what is meant by right of authority...this is akhalaq.
You state you would not accept the Prophet and Imams having a higher authority than your parents. Fine. You are deny the command of Allah, the Prophet and Imams...for all have stated this as a part of Tawhid.
You wrote regarding raza "Only if it is voluntary and comes from the heart. If it is imposed and used as a tool of harassment then, I'd assume, it would be sinful."
My friend...I can only say that your faith and beliefs are also JUST AN ASSUMPTION.
Re: Raza
Hur,
Let's cut to the chase.
1) If raza is so basic to islam then why do only bohras practice it.
2) Prove that the raza that is being used now (for every trivial thing) was also practiced in the time of prophet.
The raza is a phony ideal - and has no place in islam. I'm all for respect and dignity - that's what the reform movement is all about. The institutionalised system of raza that your masters have imposed on the community does not promote respect and dignity but the very opposite - disrespect and indignity, and the unstated agenda: control.
In fact, it's this raza business that sparked the revolt in Udaipur. The four candidates who stood for municipal elections apparently did so without the raza of the local amil. And all hell broke loose. And guess what did the Dai do? Just the opposite of what the prophet would have done. He excommunicated and humiliated the whole city and created a revolt which his infallible self is contending with to this day.
So Hur, stop talking about raza with your forked tongue. Respect and authority have to be earned - only dictators, feudal lords and petty mafia dons demand it - and mete out punishment when denied.
Let's cut to the chase.
1) If raza is so basic to islam then why do only bohras practice it.
2) Prove that the raza that is being used now (for every trivial thing) was also practiced in the time of prophet.
Raza was taken by the companions - not by the general public. It was not imposed on the general public the way it is being done on bohras.This is completely false...and explain why you think the way you do. Every action of meaning was practiced through raza of the Prophet. Whether it was leading a prayer to sitting to eat...raza was taken by the companions.
Obviously, the current dai is not following the prophet's example. Should I say he has no akhalaq when he get his "enemies" beaten up, has their homes and offices destroyed, is a silent witness to women being dragged and beaten up (in Galiakot), shuns and excommunicates people who question his minions? No one ever attacked the dai the way the jew attacked the prophet. Yet, see the difference in their reactions.A Jew cursed and spat and threw garbage on the Prophet...and the Prophet told his companions that he is my friend. The Jew seeing this accepted Islam. This is the respect and dignity the Prophet taught us to give to our enemies. How should you respect those you love. The Prophet said even if you parents are unjust to you...you must still respect them and not speak ill of them!!! This is what is meant by right of authority...this is akhalaq.
The raza is a phony ideal - and has no place in islam. I'm all for respect and dignity - that's what the reform movement is all about. The institutionalised system of raza that your masters have imposed on the community does not promote respect and dignity but the very opposite - disrespect and indignity, and the unstated agenda: control.
In fact, it's this raza business that sparked the revolt in Udaipur. The four candidates who stood for municipal elections apparently did so without the raza of the local amil. And all hell broke loose. And guess what did the Dai do? Just the opposite of what the prophet would have done. He excommunicated and humiliated the whole city and created a revolt which his infallible self is contending with to this day.
So Hur, stop talking about raza with your forked tongue. Respect and authority have to be earned - only dictators, feudal lords and petty mafia dons demand it - and mete out punishment when denied.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Raza
This is true in the case of children....an adult respects and dignifies someone who has earned that privilege.Respect and dignity are not earned item but directed manner that muslims are taught to adhere to
This "directed manner" you speak of explains the herd of sheep behavior.
Re: Raza
The concept of RAZA is to keep sheep into line, to CONTROL and KNOW what fools are doing and intend to do - get the insight, weigh the wealth fools have - say raza for majlis, tasbih, jaman, nikkah, buy a house etc etc ...... then by this they are judging how 'healthy' the 'animals' are and how much 'meat' they will get OR Mugeeya ketnay sonay kay unday day saketee hain.
Come out of this raza (bs!)
To me burhan is a cheap thug and has followers for the sake to money and money only. his amils are petty thugs.
Come out of this raza (bs!)
To me burhan is a cheap thug and has followers for the sake to money and money only. his amils are petty thugs.
Re: Raza
Hur's defence of "raza, coming as it does from a non-Bohra, simply astonishes me. Is it practised among the Ithan-ashari in the same manner, I wonder? Hur, please enlighten us.
Let us look at the concept of "raza".
One way is to think of it as a consultation or advice sought from those immediately affected by a "decision". If you wish to marry someone, then, out of respect, you inform your elder relatives and seek their blessings. You do not go to the President or Prime Minister about these things. It would not be appropiate, unless they happen to be relatives.
How is the Dai or Amil affected by your decision to go to Hajj or to hold prayer meeting at your house? These are approved by Allah, I guess. The reason is simply that you have to acknowledge their authority over you. And it is not a small matter that you have to part with a trifle sum of money for the privilege. If Allah has already given you his raza, why seek from anyone else?
Reminds me of TV programme I saw about an ape colony. All apes, if they came near their leader, must smell his arse. Otherwise, punishment would be severe. Could it be that Bohras have ways to go before completing their evolution from apes to humans?
Let us look at the concept of "raza".
One way is to think of it as a consultation or advice sought from those immediately affected by a "decision". If you wish to marry someone, then, out of respect, you inform your elder relatives and seek their blessings. You do not go to the President or Prime Minister about these things. It would not be appropiate, unless they happen to be relatives.
How is the Dai or Amil affected by your decision to go to Hajj or to hold prayer meeting at your house? These are approved by Allah, I guess. The reason is simply that you have to acknowledge their authority over you. And it is not a small matter that you have to part with a trifle sum of money for the privilege. If Allah has already given you his raza, why seek from anyone else?
Reminds me of TV programme I saw about an ape colony. All apes, if they came near their leader, must smell his arse. Otherwise, punishment would be severe. Could it be that Bohras have ways to go before completing their evolution from apes to humans?
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: Raza
Oh come off it guys...Discussion of raza (which we all know is clearly a CROCK) gives you an excuse for not even TRYING to grasp the truth. There IS some truth in this tradition you know, which even dear navel-contemplating philosopher porus realizes! But truth means suspending DIS-belief long enough to give belief a try. And THAT has to do with the most straightforward of Shia traditions, not some MONKEYSHINES of Dai about this or that.
Re: Raza
Bravo! A quote, one of many I must say from Serend, to really meditate upon.Originally posted by serendipity:
.....truth means suspending DIS-belief long enough to give belief a try....
Let us try this with a Bohra belief about Raza.
Belief: Allah will not accept your Hajj unless raza is sought and obtained from the Dai or his proxy, the Amil.
Dis-Belief: Allah will accept your Hajj . No raza is needed from anybody.
OK. I suspend the disbelief and give belief a try.
I go to Amil and get his raza for Hajj and duly part with a trifle sum of money for Amil and Daawat-e-Hadiya. Ok, I have done it.
I am waiting for truth. Damn! Why doesn't it show up?
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Raza
You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world where the truth is Batin. And that truth has to be guarded by men like me. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Porus? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for freedom from Raza and Safai Chitti. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: Raza and Safai Chitti, while tragic, keeps Bohras in line. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
[adapted from A Few Good Men by the creative ingenious of Average Bohra]
[adapted from A Few Good Men by the creative ingenious of Average Bohra]
Re: Raza
Truth comes from acknowledging the facts whether they fit your created beliefs or not.
Humsafar,
Bohras aren't the only ones that practice it. All communities of Islam at some level pratice it. It is a practice of the Prophet. The problem is the muslims don't acknowledge it as a common practice that THEY want to follow and the majority don't do it. Doesn't mean they are correct.
It is kind of like taraweh. The entire population practice it, except shiah. Those that research it realize that the Prophet NEVER practiced it and that it was created by the second kaliph. The sunni do it because the vast majority do it. Doesn't mean they are correct.
Muslims have truth in acknowledging Allah by the facts around them..although they don't see Him.
They should also acknowledge the truth of the results of Qiyamat by acknowledging the facts (traditions) of what will have if certain deeds, actions, and beliefs aren't adhered to.
There is no riddile or guessing game. Everything is plain.
Raza was practiced by the Prophet and Imams (both Imamia and Ismaili). The companions practiced it with regards to them...and the general public who was educated in islamic morals and manner also did. The only ones that didn't were those the didn't know/lay people or those that didn't care to know.
In my knowledge of the Bohras, it is required for religious issues. It is recommended for major personal items (opening a business, naming a child).
If you don't believe in it (raza)..fine...don't. But don't justify your dis-belief by saying it never existed...thus it is non-islamic.
And for your info it is ardently practiced in the ithna ashari circle for those that know. The problem in the twelver population is that they too practice what they think they understand AND ACCEPT IT AS TRUTH! It is only when they come across actual documents and scholars who tell them different do they sometimes listen!
Like I said...the populations at their core are no different in mind set.
Porus...the truth your waiting for will come on Qiyamat...when your Lord ask if you receive permission to go on Hajj? Did you address the criteria for going on Hajj as described in the Prophetic traditions?
Humsafar,
Bohras aren't the only ones that practice it. All communities of Islam at some level pratice it. It is a practice of the Prophet. The problem is the muslims don't acknowledge it as a common practice that THEY want to follow and the majority don't do it. Doesn't mean they are correct.
It is kind of like taraweh. The entire population practice it, except shiah. Those that research it realize that the Prophet NEVER practiced it and that it was created by the second kaliph. The sunni do it because the vast majority do it. Doesn't mean they are correct.
Muslims have truth in acknowledging Allah by the facts around them..although they don't see Him.
They should also acknowledge the truth of the results of Qiyamat by acknowledging the facts (traditions) of what will have if certain deeds, actions, and beliefs aren't adhered to.
There is no riddile or guessing game. Everything is plain.
Raza was practiced by the Prophet and Imams (both Imamia and Ismaili). The companions practiced it with regards to them...and the general public who was educated in islamic morals and manner also did. The only ones that didn't were those the didn't know/lay people or those that didn't care to know.
In my knowledge of the Bohras, it is required for religious issues. It is recommended for major personal items (opening a business, naming a child).
If you don't believe in it (raza)..fine...don't. But don't justify your dis-belief by saying it never existed...thus it is non-islamic.
And for your info it is ardently practiced in the ithna ashari circle for those that know. The problem in the twelver population is that they too practice what they think they understand AND ACCEPT IT AS TRUTH! It is only when they come across actual documents and scholars who tell them different do they sometimes listen!
Like I said...the populations at their core are no different in mind set.
Porus...the truth your waiting for will come on Qiyamat...when your Lord ask if you receive permission to go on Hajj? Did you address the criteria for going on Hajj as described in the Prophetic traditions?
Re: Raza
So bohra are unique - true followers of the Prophet. I had always suspected that - when I was young and impressionable my local Amil used to say that Bohras are true mumins and the only ones to go to jannat.
Anyways, you sort of beat around the bush with my first question. But I will take all your tourtous contortions for an answer. But you have yet to answer my second question:
2) Prove that the raza that is being used now (for every trivial thing) was also practiced in the time of prophet.
If you say raza now is only for religious purposes, that's a lie. Check with your bohra relatives/friends again.
Anyways, you sort of beat around the bush with my first question. But I will take all your tourtous contortions for an answer. But you have yet to answer my second question:
2) Prove that the raza that is being used now (for every trivial thing) was also practiced in the time of prophet.
If you say raza now is only for religious purposes, that's a lie. Check with your bohra relatives/friends again.
Re: Raza
Dear Humsafar,
I did not say bohras are unique..as though they are the only followers the concept of raza. From what I know..a majority of bohras still try not to obtain raza. This is not different from other sects. It is only because the bohras mullahs have a mechanism for regulation. Believe me, the other sects wish they had that as well. It is that the population is larger and wider spread that the control isn't there.
Regarding your second point you wrote "If you say raza now is only for religious purposes, that's a lie. Check with your bohra relatives/friends again."
---I checked with them...they said that raza is required for religious functions and actions like burial rites, nikah, majalis, ziyarat when staying at a khana, etc. It recommended for child naming, businesses naming, and other personal items. Please point out the "trival things" your referring to so that I may specify.
I did not say bohras are unique..as though they are the only followers the concept of raza. From what I know..a majority of bohras still try not to obtain raza. This is not different from other sects. It is only because the bohras mullahs have a mechanism for regulation. Believe me, the other sects wish they had that as well. It is that the population is larger and wider spread that the control isn't there.
Regarding your second point you wrote "If you say raza now is only for religious purposes, that's a lie. Check with your bohra relatives/friends again."
---I checked with them...they said that raza is required for religious functions and actions like burial rites, nikah, majalis, ziyarat when staying at a khana, etc. It recommended for child naming, businesses naming, and other personal items. Please point out the "trival things" your referring to so that I may specify.
Re: Raza
"Truth comes from acknowledging the facts whether they fit your created beliefs or not."
Hur,
How can you talk of truth and facts when every thing around you is rotten? Do you not see as a fact that the Dai is corrupt, uses raza to control and blackmail the community, don’t you see barat and excommunication as evil? Was Rasoolullah ever challenged? Definitely, his methods of dealing with the challenges are in complete opposite to what is practiced now. Try asking the dai a tough question or challenge his authority and you will see his true colours. Are you blind and still want to defend your position? Why do the dai not invite (Dawaat) us to thrash these differences? This will never happen, as his scholarly grasp is limited and questionable.
In essence raza is not bad. Nothing is - a knife is good as well as bad. You are emulating raza and are completely avoiding the issue as to how and for purposes it is perpetuated? That is the crust of the question. Forget your historical rhetoric and see it plain and simple – to quote your own words.
Hur,
How can you talk of truth and facts when every thing around you is rotten? Do you not see as a fact that the Dai is corrupt, uses raza to control and blackmail the community, don’t you see barat and excommunication as evil? Was Rasoolullah ever challenged? Definitely, his methods of dealing with the challenges are in complete opposite to what is practiced now. Try asking the dai a tough question or challenge his authority and you will see his true colours. Are you blind and still want to defend your position? Why do the dai not invite (Dawaat) us to thrash these differences? This will never happen, as his scholarly grasp is limited and questionable.
In essence raza is not bad. Nothing is - a knife is good as well as bad. You are emulating raza and are completely avoiding the issue as to how and for purposes it is perpetuated? That is the crust of the question. Forget your historical rhetoric and see it plain and simple – to quote your own words.
Re: Raza
Mr.Hur seems to be a full time paid employee in Kothar and that can be seen from his attitude and the amount of lies he speak.thats the true colour of our kotharis.Raza is like a "BELL IN OUR NECK".they are using it basically to collect huge money in the name of religion and if ppl don't pay them then humilitate them with not leting them take "Taaziyat" etc
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khan19922001
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Raza
Dear All
Mr. Hur in his eloquent responses managed to sneak in the "taraweeh" issue in this thread. The Prophet (PBUH) did read the "taraweeh" for one day and then he did not appear on the next day so that the muslim did not consider it to be an oblifatory prayer. The Companions of the Prophet (PBUH) after his death only made the "taraweeh" by jamaah and that was by the consensus of all the companions (ijtehaad). Hazrat Ali was also there and he did not stop the prayers when he bacame Caliph. ( if any one has info that he did stop the practice or ever spoke against it, please enlighten us all)
Now these prayers were the ijtehad of the companions of the Prophet (PBUH)
What basis do the boris have for:
a) two rakah prayer for the present and former Dai
b) matam after every "farz" namaz
c) on the 23 rd night of Ramzan the "gaal lotana" process which I am sure the Prophet (PBUH) never praticed and reading "Hagiz Salat" the traslation of which really surprised. Its a gift to the Lady Fatima etc etc. (All items defying the purpose of praying)
Would appreciate everyone's comments.
Regards
Mr. Hur in his eloquent responses managed to sneak in the "taraweeh" issue in this thread. The Prophet (PBUH) did read the "taraweeh" for one day and then he did not appear on the next day so that the muslim did not consider it to be an oblifatory prayer. The Companions of the Prophet (PBUH) after his death only made the "taraweeh" by jamaah and that was by the consensus of all the companions (ijtehaad). Hazrat Ali was also there and he did not stop the prayers when he bacame Caliph. ( if any one has info that he did stop the practice or ever spoke against it, please enlighten us all)
Now these prayers were the ijtehad of the companions of the Prophet (PBUH)
What basis do the boris have for:
a) two rakah prayer for the present and former Dai
b) matam after every "farz" namaz
c) on the 23 rd night of Ramzan the "gaal lotana" process which I am sure the Prophet (PBUH) never praticed and reading "Hagiz Salat" the traslation of which really surprised. Its a gift to the Lady Fatima etc etc. (All items defying the purpose of praying)
Would appreciate everyone's comments.
Regards
Re: Raza
Hur, after all you did blurt out the "C" word: CONTORL. A Freudian slip indeed.Originally posted by hur:
It is only because the bohras mullahs have a mechanism for regulation. Believe me, the other sects wish they had that as well. It is that the population is larger and wider spread that the control isn't there.
So, so far we have established this on the issue of raza:
1) Raza is not an intrinsic part Islamic faith.
2) The majority of Muslims choose to ignore it, and are no less Muslims for it.
3) Even in the prophet's time, it was not meant for the general public.
4) In his time the system of raza was not hierarchically structured the way it is now under Sayedna's dispensation.
5) By your own indirect admission, it's purpose is to "regulate" and "control" the population.
6) Bohras are encouraged if not pressured to seek raza for every trivial thing - from naming of a child to sending it for higher studies.
7) But where it is deemed mandatory, raza is ruthlessly used to keep the sheep in line, and as a stick to intimidate, harass and ex-communicate those who stray out of it.
And lastly, based on your own explanation of good conduct, the present Sayedna does not follow the akhalaq of the prophet. He does not have the grace and humility to forgive his enemies.
Re: Raza
Dear Humsafar,
You have follow your common methodology of taking nothing of what I actually wrote and concluding with something you prefer.
1) Raza is not an intrinsic part Islamic faith.
--Actually it is and I state this.
2) The majority of Muslims choose to ignore it, and are no less Muslims for it.
--As I stated..yes. But doesn't mean they are correct in doing so.
3) Even in the prophet's time, it was not meant for the general public.
--It was meant for everyone...it was just everyone (like today) either don't know/understand or chose not to follow it. Again, doesn't make them correct.
4) In his time the system of raza was not hierarchically structured the way it is now under Sayedna's dispensation.
---Actually it was...the amils the Prophet placed were given the authority for raza. They were the ones the lead prayer, assigned prayer leaders, collected zakat, etc.
5) By your own indirect admission, it's purpose is to "regulate" and "control" the population.
---By its direct meaning..permission means to gain/obtain approval. It is the reason why you are gaining that approval from that has meaning.
6) Bohras are encouraged if not pressured to seek raza for every trivial thing - from naming of a child to sending it for higher studies.
---Do you consider naming a child a trival thing?? And I have not met one bohra who ever obtained raza from the amil or jamat for going to any school!!!
7) But where it is deemed mandatory, raza is ruthlessly used to keep the sheep in line, and as a stick to intimidate, harass and ex-communicate those who stray out of it.
---Again..based on what...the lies you've listed so far??? Imam Sadiq said a shiah of ahlul bayt is one who first follows the commands of God and then follows us...we have no association (barat) with those who do not follow God's command. When your done finding YOUR OPINION of humanitary ideal...try basing it on the Islam.
And lastly, based on your own explanation of good conduct, the present Sayedna does not follow the akhalaq of the prophet. He does not have the grace and humility to forgive his enemies.
---According to an article in this site, the Dai called all the families of Udaipur back to the fold without reprecaution, costs or retribution. Half the Udaipur jamats shifted. These are the same jamats the curse and denounce him...correct. I can't say I know the refined details of your objections...but that sound pretty forgiving to me.
You have follow your common methodology of taking nothing of what I actually wrote and concluding with something you prefer.
1) Raza is not an intrinsic part Islamic faith.
--Actually it is and I state this.
2) The majority of Muslims choose to ignore it, and are no less Muslims for it.
--As I stated..yes. But doesn't mean they are correct in doing so.
3) Even in the prophet's time, it was not meant for the general public.
--It was meant for everyone...it was just everyone (like today) either don't know/understand or chose not to follow it. Again, doesn't make them correct.
4) In his time the system of raza was not hierarchically structured the way it is now under Sayedna's dispensation.
---Actually it was...the amils the Prophet placed were given the authority for raza. They were the ones the lead prayer, assigned prayer leaders, collected zakat, etc.
5) By your own indirect admission, it's purpose is to "regulate" and "control" the population.
---By its direct meaning..permission means to gain/obtain approval. It is the reason why you are gaining that approval from that has meaning.
6) Bohras are encouraged if not pressured to seek raza for every trivial thing - from naming of a child to sending it for higher studies.
---Do you consider naming a child a trival thing?? And I have not met one bohra who ever obtained raza from the amil or jamat for going to any school!!!
7) But where it is deemed mandatory, raza is ruthlessly used to keep the sheep in line, and as a stick to intimidate, harass and ex-communicate those who stray out of it.
---Again..based on what...the lies you've listed so far??? Imam Sadiq said a shiah of ahlul bayt is one who first follows the commands of God and then follows us...we have no association (barat) with those who do not follow God's command. When your done finding YOUR OPINION of humanitary ideal...try basing it on the Islam.
And lastly, based on your own explanation of good conduct, the present Sayedna does not follow the akhalaq of the prophet. He does not have the grace and humility to forgive his enemies.
---According to an article in this site, the Dai called all the families of Udaipur back to the fold without reprecaution, costs or retribution. Half the Udaipur jamats shifted. These are the same jamats the curse and denounce him...correct. I can't say I know the refined details of your objections...but that sound pretty forgiving to me.
Re: Raza
So, Hur what you are saying is that even though the majority chose to ignore it in the prophet's time, and they continue to do so till today - yet raza is an intrinsic part of the Islamic faith.
What is your criteria or logic for assigning centrality to any tenet or practice?
The rest of your argument about raza is hinged on this question. I'm saying, and the majority of Muslims believe, that it is not central to the Islamic belief system. Therefore its practice is untenable, wrong and is used by the Bohra clergy solely for coercion.
As for Udaipur, I don't know which article your are referring to. But you need to know the details and the actual sequence of events before making an ignorant comment. Women were dragged and beaten in front of the Sayedna in Galiakot - no amount of your intellectual skullduggery can deny this fact. I wonder if the Prophet would have allowed or even tolerated that. But in terms of "akhalaq" it's not just the question of Udaipur alone, but of ex-communication and harassment in general. The list is long (and ongoing) - from Burhanpur school case to Adajee Peerbhoy, from Kareemjees in Africa to Noman Contractor and Asghar Ali Engineer in India, from prominent Bohras to ordinary ones - they have been at the receiving end of Sayedna's akhalaq-less wrath.
What is your criteria or logic for assigning centrality to any tenet or practice?
The rest of your argument about raza is hinged on this question. I'm saying, and the majority of Muslims believe, that it is not central to the Islamic belief system. Therefore its practice is untenable, wrong and is used by the Bohra clergy solely for coercion.
As for Udaipur, I don't know which article your are referring to. But you need to know the details and the actual sequence of events before making an ignorant comment. Women were dragged and beaten in front of the Sayedna in Galiakot - no amount of your intellectual skullduggery can deny this fact. I wonder if the Prophet would have allowed or even tolerated that. But in terms of "akhalaq" it's not just the question of Udaipur alone, but of ex-communication and harassment in general. The list is long (and ongoing) - from Burhanpur school case to Adajee Peerbhoy, from Kareemjees in Africa to Noman Contractor and Asghar Ali Engineer in India, from prominent Bohras to ordinary ones - they have been at the receiving end of Sayedna's akhalaq-less wrath.