Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Today I received a mail containing cutting of local Hindi Newspaper of 4th April 2009. There is news published with photograph regarding Udaipur Reformist Jamat's special prayer for Syedna Burhanuddin saheb's speedy recovery. The news is printed on page number 6.

It is said that Mr. Abid Hussain Adeeb along with Mulla Peer Ali beside large gathering in Rasool Pura mosque arranged a special meeting to pray for the speedy recovery of Syedna Burhanuddin sahib. Other prominent member of the reformist Jamat was also present.

Is not it a pleasing news folks?

It shows once again that reformists are not driven by hate or jealousy towards the Sayedna. Our fight is based on principles and is not directed against any particular person or personality.

Hussain_KSA why do you say that it is not good news regarding Udaipur Reformist Jamat's special prayer for Syedna Burhanuddin saheb's speedy recovery? any one can pray for good health for dia there is nothing wrong in that.Hussain_KSA i think you are fred that Udaipur Reformist Jamat's will join the kothars.have faith man.

Hussain bhai was not critical at all, he was commending it in his last sentence. As Hamsafar bhai said, reform is not to ostracize but to include, it is to wish well for all and not to curse anyone. Reform is to be humane and kind instead of arrogant and rude.
Reform is what broad minded people do when they see some one suffering. Sheikh Saadi so rightly said,


sabaq amoz ke sarmashqe jawanan adab ast
faraq mabein bani adam o haiwan adab ast

We are so glad and refreshed that atleast sanity prevails among those who claim to bring a saner change.
Humility is always great.

Thanks brother Accountiblity for making my point clear.

Brother Humsafar, it is tragedy that in waez and other sitting the orthdo bohras projecting us as enemy of dawat. The real problem is that they never understand our cuase.

Jungle, I would be most happiest person on this earth if the two factions re united. I have been in Saudi Arabia for more than fifteen years and have studied all the religions comparatively. But still I don't like infighting among our people. Your taunting is useless. I hope you understand my objective of posting this news over here. It calls good will move toward reconciallation which you will not understand.

Regards.

I think its good news that progressives still beleive in the present DAI, I was having doubts

even i will be gald if the two factions re united because i have famliy split Hussain_KSA iam not against any one.and i am not taunting iam just answer your last sentence. that does not mean i dont understand it is the way you put your last sentence

Jungle

All the reformist have spilt family and there near and dear on other side. Every one is suffering and thinks that other site is better. I think it should come to an end. Enough is Enough. I was just expressing my feeling by my last sentence for those who thinks that we are against the office of Dai.

Reformist are not from them (Roshan Khayal Jamat of Malegaon, Artalis wala (Nagpuri) Vakili or Badri) who has any problem with the Office of Dai. We are against the misuse of highly respected office by mere a group of people.

Husain,

You are just a normal human being asking for good governance and justice, nothing wrong with that, I wish there were more of you who would argue their points without resorting to abuse

An office has absolutely no meaning without the person who is occupying it. An office comes into being only if there is a person there to occupy it. An office is only as good as the person occupying it. If a divine office can be occupied by a corrupt person, then it is time you realize that the office wasn't divine in the first place. Either the Dai is corrupt or he is not. Throwing "the office" into the mix is trying to have your cake and eat it too. The two factions will not be united unless the progressives go to the Dai and ask for forgiveness for everything they have done, or the office is occupied by a better person than the current corrupt Dai. But since both the factions are praying for his well being, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

anajmi, You are right. An office is diminished by a less than worthy incumbent but only for so long as he occupies the office. The office is not stained forever. With a more worthy incumbent the honour of the office is restored. (Bush/Obama succession is a case in point.) Yes, the current dai is corrupt but reformists do not wish him ill. We pray for his good health but when he finally goes (as we all must), we hope he is succeed by an honest and upright Dai.

Humsafar,

Then you are a better person than I am. I will not pray for the well being of a corrupt Dai so that he can continue his corrupt practices. And since he won't relinquish his strangle hold on the community willingly, it is time to let the divine plan work it's way. If anything, pray that the community is released from his strangle hold and once he goes, a better person occupies the office.

My heart goes for Hamsafar but my brain tilts towards anajmi.
We have to be both positive and realistic. Unfortunately they collide. One thing we all wish and expect is change. Lets hope the next Dai is a stronger and transperent whos first mission would be to unite us all.

The reformists believe in the office of Dai, though they are against the misuse of that office and religion by the present Dai.

Bohra Youth Udaipur by praying for Dai's health is following the tradition of the holy Prophet:
The story of a Jewish woman is well known who always threw rubbish on Prophet Mohammed whenever he passed by her house. When one day she was fallen sick and didn't come to throw rubbish on holy Prophet Mohammed he inquired about her. When he learnt that she was not well. Prophet went to inquire about her health and wish her well.

Similarly inspite of atrocities committed by the Dai on the reformists of Udaipur when they came to know that the Dai is not well they organised a gathering and prayed for his early recovery.

Incidentally we all had expected Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb to express the condolence on the death of his first cousin, Ahmed Luqmani. But Sayedna Burhanuddin who has not bothered even for his own mother how can any one expect such curtsy from him.

An office has absolutely no meaning without the person who is occupying it. An office comes into being only if there is a person there to occupy it. An office is only as good as the person occupying it. If a divine office can be occupied by a corrupt person, then it is time you realize that the office wasn't divine in the first place. Either the Dai is corrupt or he is not. Throwing "the office" into the mix is trying to have your cake and eat it too. The two factions will not be united unless the progressives go to the Dai and ask for forgiveness for everything they have done, or the office is occupied by a better person than the current corrupt Dai. But since both the factions are praying for his well being, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Anajmi

I fully agree with you.

anajmi wrote:Then you are a better person than I am. I will not pray for the well being of a corrupt Dai so that he can continue his corrupt practices. And since he won't relinquish his strangle hold on the community willingly, it is time to let the divine plan work it's way. If anything, pray that the community is released from his strangle hold and once he goes, a better person occupies the office.

Well said Bro Anajmi !!!!!

Anajmi you are not in the circle, you have opted out. You dont need dai, but we do, because we are in the fold and not opted out. Our whole religion depend on the seat of Dai. Just because we need dai and our faith demands it, we should not be enslaved and subjugated. Our Dai has to be compassionate and caring.

we hope he is succeed by an honest and upright Dai.

This is the delima. He will be either succeeded by his son(s) or by his brother. His son Qaid Johar Bhai saheb is the sole trustee of Dawate Hadiya International, which trust own millions of dollars worth of property and investment. His son Muffadal Bhai saheb has business ventures in Dubai, i/c real state investment which should have gone down the hill because of Dubai situation.

I dont know about mazoon saheb, if he has any business intrest. But There are stories. so here we go again.

accountability wrote:Anajmi you are not in the circle, you have opted out. You dont need dai, but we do, because we are in the fold and not opted out. Our whole religion depend on the seat of Dai. Just because we need dai and our faith demands it, we should not be enslaved and subjugated. Our Dai has to be compassionate and caring.

Brother Accountabilty

I don't agree with you on this... Can we not challenge our faith? ask some questions? Instead of expecting our dai to be compassionate and caring why can't we practice compassion and caring?

accountability,

There is a saying which goes - you get the leaders (politicians) you deserve. You deserve the current dai. And if the next one is corrupt as well, then you deserve him too!!

Wow, what a conundrum. On one hand you guys say that you pray for the well being of the Dai. On the other hand, you say since he is corrupt you don't pray for him. Yet others among you say the seat of the Dai is not absolute, which is counter intuitive....it's like saying you are a Christian, but you root for the Simon Peter as your leader not Isa A.S.

Seems like there is split within the so-called "reformists" movement, no?

Explain to me the following:
1. How can you pray imamat namaz in a Masjid when the Dai has not appointed the Imam to lead the prayers?
2. How can you constantly abuse the Dai, but now want to pray for his well being?

For all intent and purpose, you guys ought to just create your own branch of Ismailism....nothing wrong with that concept, since you believe in it. BUT don't be "bemoya" neither here nor there, you are a Bohra and then you aren't, you curse the Dai give him ghali and then you pray for his well being, you say you are Bohras knowing full well that the concept is that the Dai is the sole authority and then you say he is not the sole authority to suit your agendas, pray for the "Dai" who you say is incompetent, not highly educated etc. Kinda confusng, isn't it? If you can't keep all this straight, pray tell how do your children keep it straight?

Right now, you so-called "reformists" praying for the Dai (when you vehemently hate him, call him derogatory names, abuse him all ways to Sunday, say he has no absolute authority,say he is incompetent and not highly educated or intelligent, heap all sorts of corruption labels, question the legitimacy of Misaaq, question any move Syedna TUS makes, etc,) is like saying you are Shia but you believe in the 3 so-called caliphs more than Ali A.S.......whacked out I tell ya!

Explain to me the following:
1. How can you pray imamat namaz in a Masjid when the Dai has not appointed the Imam to lead the prayers?

Al-Muizz, tell us where it is mentioned in any ismaili/fatimid source book or the Quran that the Imam for namaz must be appointed by the Dai. In Islam anyone with basic religious knowledge can lead the prayers. All this raza business is innovation.

2. How can you constantly abuse the Dai, but now want to pray for his well being?

Reformists "officially" have never abused the Dai. Look at any of our literature, articles, resolutions - the dai has always been addressed with respect. However, there are individuals - and not just reformists - who on this forum tend to refer to the dai in less than respectable terms. Although it is regrettable but one can understand the anger and frustration that might provoke them to do so.

Your knowledge of Islam and Fatimid/Tayyabi doctrine which Bohras follow is almost non-existent - so there little point in reasoning with you. All you are doing is spewing propaganda here; sad that your neurosurgeon brain is only capable of this.

mubarak bhai

in lots of wa az that i have heard its narrated that during the last days of rasul ekhuda [saw] awwal tried to lead the namaz-the prophet[saw] heard him and came to the mosque and rebuked him as he was leading the congregation without raza-and then rasul e khuda[saw] himself led the namaz

can u confirm that this incident is authentic?

mutmaeen wrote:mubarak bhai

in lots of wa az that i have heard its narrated that during the last days of rasul ekhuda [saw] awwal tried to lead the namaz-the prophet[saw] heard him and came to the mosque and rebuked him as he was leading the congregation without raza-and then rasul e khuda[saw] himself led the namaz

can u confirm that this incident is authentic?

Raza is an innovation by Kothar to suppress/control us, There was nothing like "raza" in the prophets era.

Explain to me the following:
1. How can you pray imamat namaz in a Masjid when the Dai has not appointed the Imam to lead the prayers?

What is more important, namaz or the person who does imamat? If this is understood, where's the issue?

Naturally, old age makes a man spiritual, when he realizes that the end is near he does not cling to life anymore, taking life as it comes without any resistance, ego is absent, One can easily see that even old age has not made this man spiritual... what else can???

Rasulullah said, "The most learned among you present in the mosque is entitled to lead the Salat." (Mishkaat).
The Fuqaha (jurists) have explained, that in the context of appointing an Imam, the criterion suggests to appoint an Imam that is most learned.
Raza for even "ahkame-Ilahi" (prayers, fasting, Hajj etc.) is a very recent annovation - started from Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb who wanted to have his absolute control on the community.

Tell me something,

When RasoolAllah SAW was on his death bed, he heard Abi Bakri leading the namaaz and he asked, "Who is praying in my Masjid without MY permission?" He got up with the help of Ali A.S. and went to the Masjid and FORCIBLY kicked Abi Bakri out. He led the final prayer sitting and all muslims prayed with him, sitting.

So, one can infer the following:
1. Abi Bakri was NOT competent enough to lead the prayers
2. The Prophet SAW had to give permission for the imamat namaaz...otherwise, why would he take such an exception to Abi Bakri leading the prayers?
3. The Misaaq's importance was clearly demonstrated in Ghadir when The Prophet SAW said "To all whom I was the Moula now Ali is your Moula." EVERY Muslim had to give misaaq to RasoolAllah SAW, so then by inference the tradition of Misaaq existed since that time...............

Al-Muizz wrote:Wow, what a conundrum. On one hand you guys say that you pray for the well being of the Dai. On the other hand, you say since he is corrupt you don't pray for him. Yet others among you say the seat of the Dai is not absolute, which is counter intuitive....it's like saying you are a Christian, but you root for the Simon Peter as your leader not Isa A.S.

Bro Al-Muizz,

The varied comments on this forum proves that there is freedom of speech here unlike the kothar which only uses veto power. Everyone is freely expressing his/her views on the subject matter. Moreover for the ones who are opposed to Burhanudin saab but still pray for his health proves that they have the fundamental values in them which is humanity. It has been repeatedly spelled out that reformists do not oppose the office of a dai but the person who is occupying the august seat. If a war is won the credit goes to the Army chief and if it is lost then too he has to take the blame on himself but in bohra community Burhanudin saab refuses to take the responsibility of the corrupt and power hungry administration which is appointed by him which again implies that he is a part and parcel of it.

Dear brother Al muizz,
You have to understand the difference between Islam as a Religion based on the Quranic teachings and Islam as Shia/Sunni history.

Moreover for the ones who are opposed to Burhanudin saab but still pray for his health proves that they have the fundamental values in them which is humanity.

Dear bro ghulam,

I consider myself to be a bigger humanitarian than those praying for the health of the Dai. I am praying for the health of the community and the Muslim Ummah. Corrupt old rulers who want to hog power and aren't ready to let it go even though one of their legs is hanging, are the biggest problem facing the muslims today. New blood, preferably not from the Dai's corrupt family, should be given the charge. I hope the Dai dies before doing Nass. That way the people can elect a leader democratically.