Dawoodi Bohra Forum

I came across a few sites that proclaim that we do not need the collection of hadiths as all the books are riled with contradictions and anomalies. All we need is the Quran and the Sunnah. How did you acquaint yourselves with the Sunnah if not from the hadiths? After all only the Ahmadiyyas,Bohras and Ismailis have spiritual guides so who taught the Sunnah to the Sunnis if not the scholars of hadith?

Three distinct sources related to Prophet are:

Hadith (His sayings)
Sunnah (His actions)
Sirat (History)

Canonical hadith are unquestioningly accepted by the significant numbers of Sunnis as truth equivalent to Quran.

Shia accept hadith and sunna as related by ahl-e-bayt as truth. Those from Imams are held as sacrosanct as Quran.

Sirat, especially by Tabari, will be subjected to the test of Hadith by Shia. Sunnis (except scholars) accept them unquestioningly.

As far as the Shia are concerned, most authentic hadith and sunnah are those that are universally agreed and they are from the period ending with Imam Jaafar al-Sadiq. (There is a solid continuity of isnad within ahl-e-bayt upto that period).Later ones are subject to dispute among the different Shia branches. Shia imams relate hadith in relation to their responsibility to interpret Quran for Muslims.

For Sunnis, anything goes in hadith, even if they have either no or marginal bearing in the message of Quran. Shia emphasize spiritual lessons of hadith.

Thus you will not find the following gems from Bukhari being related by the Shia:

1. Prophet urinated while standing up.
2. Ayesha and Prophet took bath together.
3. Ayesha was 9 years old when 54 year old Prophet had sex with her

We have two non-muslims discussing the Sunnah and the Quran as followed by the muslims over here!! One is self-proclaimed and the other was declared as such by the true Muslims. What more can I say?

Ahmadiyyas, Bohras and Ismailis have spiritual guides

You are joking right? Do you even know what a spiritual guide is? If you knew, believe me, you wouldn't be an ahmadiyyan. It has been established that the Dai is a fraud and a tyrant right here on this board. Fighting the Dai and his establishment is the reason for the existence of this board.

Aga Khan is known only for his charity. As far as Islam and Aga Khan is concerned, the less said the better.

Then we come to the ahmadiyyas, what can I say, they have already been declared as non-muslims. Who does one go to after the Mahdi gets you declared as non-muslims? Mahdi II?

Our self-proclaimed resident kafir has pointed out a lot of his so called "gems" even from the quran. I wouldn't take his gem collection too seriously.

Originally posted by anajmi:

Ahmadiyyas, Bohras and Ismailis have spiritual guides

You are joking right? Do you even know what a spiritual guide is?

Yup! we have ours too.... look below
http://www.blackhillsportal.com/images/ ... _hamza.jpg
we are the TRUE Talibans "students" of this serene, peace loving Imam.....

no..seriously....

Originally posted by bigot:
Our self-proclaimed resident kafir has pointed out a lot of his so called "gems" even from the quran. I wouldn't take his gem collection too seriously.

Sahih Bukhari on Prophet having sex with Ayesha when she was 9 years old:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamental ... 2.sbt.html

************************

Sahih Bukhari on Prophet urinating while standing:

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 224:
Narrated Hudhaifa:

Once the Prophet went to the dumps of some people and passed urine while standing. He then asked for water and so I brought it to him and he performed ablution.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamental ... 4.sbt.html

*************************
Sahih Bukhari on Prophet and Ayesha bathing together:

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298:
Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamental ... 6.sbt.html

porus,

You missed the point that I was trying to make. We've been down this road before. You've pointed out similar "gems" from the quran too. So even if we were to reject hadith, it should not be because a kafir like you says so, because you'd have us reject the quran too.

Besides, a hadith is not to be rejected because a kafir does not like it. A hadith can be rejected only if it can be proven that it is false or if there is a break in the chain of narrators, or if it goes against the quran. Till then, you should continue reading taawil.

Originally posted by bigot:
porus,

......you'd have us reject the quran too.

No, just a bigot's "understanding" of it seeing that it comes from flawed translations and flawed education and from having been duped away from the teachings of his parents that are based on guidance from Ahl-e-bayt.

oh puhleeze don't pretend to be teaching me the correct quran. As I've said before, a kafir's understanding of the quran is of just as much use as the understanding of shaitan. He knows the quran better than you or I, but I wouldn't accept him as my teacher, now would I?

Besides, according to one of your gems, the quran cannot be understood, the doors of understanding the quran have been closed forever since the prophet passed away. So I am not sure what you will teaching us, your own flawed understanding?

from having been duped away from the teachings of his parents

Another one of your gems. Not long ago, you were accusing me of being brainwashed by my parents. Not just me but all muslims. According to you and other kafirs on this board, all muslims are muslims because they have been brainwashed by their parents. If you want, I am sure the search feature will help me locate your posts.

Quran gives the authority to explain it to Prophet only. Which means that that with the passing of Prophet, there is no authority and Quran remains closed, al-saamit. This is not according to me, as the bigot claims, but according to no less an authority than Ali ibn Abi Taalib himself. (By the way did you read that the bigot refers to Ali as our first Imam? Our first Imam is Hasan. But then, bigot probably forgot his early teaching!)

Unless, that is, if you believe -and I did point this out before- that the authority to interpret the Quran passed to the Imams of ahl-e-bayt. Bohras believe that.

Shaitan knows Quran a lot better than bigot, but a mumin excels Shaitan in his knowledge of the Quran. Shaitan does not know things that Allah taught Adam, hence man. That is from Quran.

Is there anyone on this board who wants to learn the Quran from the bigot? I am not the teacher of Quran and you are invited not to learn it from me but from its teachers as long as they are not Wahhabis, Qutbis and Salafis.

porus,

The bottom line is this, I do not believe anything that you say. You are a self proclaimed kafir.

Now if anyone on this board wants to learn quran and if you are not ready to learn if from those that the self proclaimed kafir opposes, then you are shit out of luck. For eg. I now realize that Hazrat Ali was not the first Imam, the first Imam was Hasan, even though the Imamat was passed to Hazrat Ali by the prophet. Ah the wonderful world of taawil. Here is another good one, Imamat was in the family of Abraham according to the quran, depending on how many generations there were between prophet Abraham and Imam Hasan, Imam Hasan would actually be that many + 1 in number.

Now I am not sure who else is out there who will teach the quran. Is there a bohra interpretation of the quran existing somewhere? Remember, the Pillars of Islam, which the self proclaimed kafir swears by (the translation at least) uses the quranic translation of Arberry. Imagine this, even the writer of Pillars of Islam did not have the Imam's translation of the quran.

I tried getting the interpretation of the quran from the Ismailis too. I ran into a wall there too. So when the self proclaimed kafir wants us to learn the quran, he wants us to learn it from him, even though he may pretend he does not. I think we are only a few months away from revealing the self proclaimed kafir to be a kothari.

Actually, I think that was a mistake on my part. I don't think the self proclaimed kafir wants to teach the quran. He just doesn't want anyone to learn it.

I did a search on google about who the first Imam is and couldn't find a single web site which mentioned Imam Hasan as the first Imam.

That is the beauty of the taawil of the self proclaimed kafir. It changes based upon the posts of anajmi as needed.

Originally posted by ignorant bigot:
I did a search on google about who the first Imam is and couldn't find a single web site which mentioned Imam Hasan as the first Imam.

Now there is one.

This is the list of Imams that all Bohras know and recite after every fard prayer.

Preamble to the list is:
a. Muhammad, sayyid-il mursaleen
b. Ali ibn Abi Taalib, sayyid-il wasiyyin, asaas-il Imamat (Foundation of Imamat)
c. Fatima al-Zahra, sayiidat-in nisaa-il aalameen

Names of 21 Imams:

1. Hasan
2. Husain
3. Ali Zain al-Abideen
4. Muhammad al-Baqir
5. Jaafar al-Sadiq
6. Ismail al-wafa
7. Muhammad al-Shakir
8. Abd-allah al-Mastoor
9. Ahmad al-Mastoor
10. Husain al-Mastoor
11. Abd-allah al-Mahdi-billah
12. Muhammad al-Qaim bi-amrillah
13. Mansur-billah
14. Muiz li-dinillah
15. Aziz –billah
16. Hakim bi-amrillah
17. Zahir li-zaz dinillah
18. Mustansir-billah
19. Mustaali-billah
20. Amir bi-ahkami-llah
21. al-Tayyib
******************

I believe this is false. How can Hazrat Ali be the foundation of Imamat when Imamat was promised to the progeny of prophet Abraham? Wasn't there not a single Imam after prophet Abraham till Imam Hassan? Let us say all were prophets till the last prophet, then instead of having Imams after the prophets, we have a break for a few years, no Imam, only a foundation of Imamat and then the first Imam!!

Anajmi,
salaam,
I think if we understand the difference between imamat and prophethood, their roles in the world and their necessities we may be able to answer your valid doubt. A prophet could be an imam but vice versa need not be true.

hs

hs,

Yes I understand your point. Anyway, this discussion got sidetracked with the question of Imamat and the first Imam. The point was trying to understand the quran and who should be chosen to be your teacher. The self-proclaimed kafir said this

you are invited not to learn it from me but from its teachers as long as they are not Wahhabis, Qutbis and Salafis

This is something a bigot would say, wouldn't it? The kafir bigot says only the Imams know the quran, just like the wahhabis who claim only YusufAli can understand the quran (which actually they never did!!). The irony is that the self-proclaimed kafir does not believe in the Imams or their teachings. He does not believe in Allah and he does not believe in his prophet!!

Sel-proclaimed

Does Anju darling know the meaning or is (s)he confusing it with self-confessed? Did we miss the proclaimation?

Anjali baby the methodology used by Bukhari et al to prove the authenticity of their collections is not evem adequate to get a junior historian a D grade in an exam leave alone being universally accepted!

And we may not be Muslims in your eyes but you and your ilk seem to equate yourselves to God as you have given yourselves the Right to be the Supreme Judge.

I came to this forum more than 5 years ago when I was researching the various interpretations of Islam. I found that nearly every serious dicussion would have silly interjections from you and junior (you were taking on other tariqas even then) - I had quite a few brushes with the two of you for about a couple of months. Then a few months ago the forum came up on one of my searches and again you two were displaying your immaturities. That time I had the odd exchanges with you and quickly moved on. Brother you outlive the others here not because you outwit them - the others move on as life itself does, You regretably are firmly rooted in your 7th Century dogmas and will not change with age - an unIsllamic attitude if I may be permitted to add.

the methodology used by Bukhari et al to prove the authenticity of their collections is not evem adequate to get a junior historian a D grade in an exam leave alone being universally accepted!

Apparently, it was much easier to get you and your mahdi disqualified from being muslims. It must've been quite obvious. I guess it is time again for you to move on.

babu,

I didn't get a chance to talk to the mirza personally but I am pretty sure that he got the idea to perform "The Mahdi" from Bukhari!!

I need to validate a few things about the Imams,

According to the wonderful world of the internet,

1 Imam Hasan
Umm Bashir binte Abu Masud al-Khazraji
Khawla binte Fazari
Umm Is-haq binte Talha bin UbaidAllah al-Taimi

2 Imam Hussain
Shahar Bano binte Khusroe Yazdigard III
Layla binte Abu Murra bin Urwa bin Masu
Rabab binte Imrual-Qays bin Adi
Umm Ishaq binte Talha bin UbaydAllah Taimi

3 Imam Ali Zain al-Abideen
Umm Abd Allah binte al-Hasan
and other wives

4 Imam Muhammad al-Baqir
Umm Farwa binte Qassim bin Muhammad bin Abu Bakr
and other wives

5 Imam Jaafar al-Sadiq
Fatima daughter ofhusain bin Imam Ali Zain al ­Abideen
Umm Walad

Is this the truth or is it a lie?

Forgot to mention that these are the wives of the respective Imams. Each Imam having more than one.