is this the way progs perform majlis?

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Humsafar
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#31

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:56 pm

aqs wrote:If younger generation is also keeping beard as per the sunnah and women are dressing modestly in Rida though you call them penguin dress, then what is the problem??
Aqs, I expected something better from you than this? No, there is nothing wrong with that and that is not the point. All I'm trying to drive home is that the "as per the sunnah" realisation came too late for our clergy. The practice of sunnah per se is not the problem, but the timing and manner of its imposition is. I'm questioning the intention behind the practice, not the practice itself.
aqs wrote:if you talk about pressure for the same then remember that some times for the betterment of the person a bitter pill is also necessary. many a times Rida and Beard stops a person from vices.
Agreed. Dictatorship makes the trains run on time. Mussolini used to boast about that. In any case, do you really believe bear and rida can keep vices at bay? Actually, beard and rida can prove to be a nice cover for vices. But again, the point is about the intention, not the practice.

Humsafar
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#32

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:03 pm

guy_sam2005 wrote:yes he obviously was..today the dhadi and topi is the result of his guidence...moula planted the seeds which is a fully grown tree of imaan now flourishin everywhere.despite of enemies like u
Alas, he didn't plant any seed of intelligence. The only fully grown tree I can see is that of the "royal family" which is bearing ripe fruits of abdes like you - with you hands folded and pockets unfolded.

trvoice
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#33

Unread post by trvoice » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:26 pm

Humsafar wrote:
guy_sam2005 wrote:yes he obviously was..today the dhadi and topi is the result of his guidence...moula planted the seeds which is a fully grown tree of imaan now flourishin everywhere.despite of enemies like u
Alas, he didn't plant any seed of intelligence. The only fully grown tree I can see is that of the "royal family" which is bearing ripe fruits of abdes like you - with you hands folded and pockets unfolded.

Oh yes he did seed them , its just that there are always some bad seeds which are left out ungrown or are damaged. lol

ghulam muhammed
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#34

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:20 pm

trvoice wrote:Oh yes he did seed them , its just that there are always some bad seeds which are left out ungrown or are damaged. lol
Have you heard the famous saying that even one bad apple spoils the whole basket ? And what is the remedy to save the good ones ? .....Remove the bad ones. Is he removing the bad ones or elevating them to positions by which way the bad gets worse and rottens the entire system. Why is he not taking any remedial measures ?..... Hamam mein sab nange hain.

trvoice
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#35

Unread post by trvoice » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:02 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
trvoice wrote:Oh yes he did seed them , its just that there are always some bad seeds which are left out ungrown or are damaged. lol
Have you heard the famous saying that even one bad apple spoils the whole basket ? And what is the remedy to save the good ones ? .....Remove the bad ones. Is he removing the bad ones or elevating them to positions by which way the bad gets worse and rottens the entire system. Why is he not taking any remedial measures ?..... Hamam mein sab nange hain.
From where I see HE did remove the BAD APPLES too not 1 or 2 infact 4 of them and the 5th rolled out by itself (thought better get out than being kicked out). But yes you are right those BAD APPLES are still trying to spoil the basket.

Keep it coming guyz.

aqs
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#36

Unread post by aqs » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:18 am

Humsafar wrote:Aqs, I expected something better from you than this
Zarranavazish ke liye shukriya :wink:

All I'm trying to drive home is that the "as per the sunnah" realisation came too late for our clergy. The practice of sunnah per se is not the problem, but the timing and manner of its imposition is. I'm questioning the intention behind the practice, not the practice itself.
Realization was always there, implementation took a little time, Every Dai has problems of his time and they devise the best strategy according to the Sunnah, shariya or seerate Mohamadiya. Beard and Rida were the need of the time, so implemented.

S. Insaf
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#37

Unread post by S. Insaf » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:40 am

The need of the time is to crush increasing opposition.

aqs
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#38

Unread post by aqs » Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:52 am

S. Insaf wrote:The need of the time is to crush increasing opposition.
and that opposition is waning so fast in thin air that their is severe identity crisis and dearth of any recognized face for leadership except known couple

Humsafar
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#39

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:57 am

aqs wrote:Beard and Rida were the need of the time, so implemented.
Need of the time? Can you please explain, what was the need?
aqs wrote:and that opposition is waning so fast in thin air that their is severe identity crisis and dearth of any recognized face for leadership except known couple
Wrong. As I've mentioned in another thread yesterday and will never tire of saying it again and again that the reform movement is issue-based. It's identity is not derived from leaders - known or unknown - but from the principles for which we are fighting. The opposition is well and alive, and will continue to be so as long as the human heart beats for justice and dignity. We reformists are not obsessed with "leaders" and "personalities" - in that sense we are truly democratic and represent what could be called "peoples' power".

profastian
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#40

Unread post by profastian » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:26 am

Humsafar wrote: Wrong. As I've mentioned in another thread yesterday and will never tire of saying it again and again that the reform movement is issue-based. It's identity is not derived from leaders - known or unknown - but from the principles for which we are fighting. The opposition is well and alive, and will continue to be so as long as the human heart beats for justice and dignity. We reformists are not obsessed with "leaders" and "personalities" - in that sense we are truly democratic and represent what could be called "peoples' power".
What issues. I don't see any common ground on the issues among the progs.
Some complain about monetary exploitation.
Some can't stand the DAI living in luxury
Some even question the whole Ismaiili belief system.
Can you elaborate the "issues"?

Humsafar
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#41

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:33 am

profastian, from your posts you appear to be intelligent, then why do you insist on acting dumb? There are enough resources on this website to educate yourself about the reform movement and its issues. Please do read the articles posted on this thread: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=4891. These articles will inform you not only about the reform movement but also about the dawoodi bohra faith, its history and heritage.

These articles are the official "position" of the reformists. And what you find on this Forum are the personal opinions of people most of whom are not even reformists. Please, please try understand the difference between the official position and personal opinions.

For your benefit, here are the core issues (in a nutshell) of the reform movement:
1) Accountability/Transparency : what happens to the tens of millions of money collected from the community? Reformists demand that there should be a proper account for this collection (as per Hazrat Ali's integrity regarding baitul maal) and that the money be spent on the welfare of the community.

2) Democratic, autonomous setup of local jamaats: This is deliberately misinterpreted as democratic election of the Dai. This is not true. By democratic set up, we mean that jamaat managing committees must be elected by the local members and NOT handpicked by the "ousider" aamil. By autonomous we mean that the affairs of the jamaat be run by the managing committee in the interest and benefit of its members, and that it be accountable to its members and not the aamil or the Kothar. Also, we demand that all local Bohra properties should be owned, maintained and managed by the local jamaats.

3) End of social-boycott: There is no justification for its practice in our tradition or in our books, and it amounts to the violation of human rights.

4) End of misaaq and raza (in their current form and practice): These two tenets have been used by the Kothar as instruments of control and harassment. Again, there is no justification of these practices in our tradition or in our books.

5) Freedom of conscience: Beyond the religious sphere, the dai and his establishment has no business with the secular affairs of Bohras.

6) End of the cult surrounding the dai: The dai is an important figure in the bohra scheme of things, and is essentially a spiritual guide but no more. His worship and deification as a demigod is unislamic and goes against our Ismaili/Mustalian faith and tradition.

7) End to taxes: Bohras are subjected to a number of taxes (wajebat etc.) from cradle to grave, and most of it is collected under duress. This practice must end. However, whatever legitimate taxes that must be collected must belong to the local jamaat. The jamaat must spend that money for the benefit and welfare of its members - and other poor jamaats - if they have extra funds to spare. The money from the people belongs to the people - not to the Dai or the kothar. The Kothar is an illegitimate, cruel and unnecessary institution. It has not right to exist.

These are the main issues, but remember that control and coercion has increased many fold since the reform movement started. The cult of the dai and the royal family and the kothar are firmly entrenched into the Bohra psyche and reality. This is will give you an idea of what we reformists are up against. Besides, the kothar has the power of propaganda of which you and other abdes are perfect victims.

profastian
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#42

Unread post by profastian » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:59 am

Humsafar wrote:profastian, from your posts you appear to be intelligent, then why do you insist on acting dumb? There are enough resources on this website to educate yourself about the reform movement and its issues. Please do read the articles posted on this thread: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=4891. These articles will inform you not only about the reform movement but also about the dawoodi bohra faith, its history and heritage.

These articles are the official "position" of the reformists. And what you find on this Forum are the personal opinions of people most of whom are not even reformists. Please, please try understand the difference between the official position and personal opinions.

For your benefit, here are the core issues (in a nutshell) of the reform movement:
1) Accountability/Transparency : what happens to the tens of millions of money collected from the community? Reformists demand that there should be a proper account for this collection (as per Hazrat Ali's integrity regarding baitul maal) and that the money be spent on the welfare of the community.

2) Democratic, autonomous setup of local jamaats: This is deliberately misinterpreted as democratic election of the Dai. This is not true. By democratic set up, we mean that jamaat managing committees must be elected by the local members and NOT handpicked by the "ousider" aamil. By autonomous we mean that the affairs of the jamaat be run by the managing committee in the interest and benefit of its members, and that it be accountable to its members and not the aamil or the Kothar. Also, we demand that all local Bohra properties should be owned, maintained and managed by the local jamaats.

3) End of social-boycott: There is no justification for its practice in our tradition or in our books, and it amounts to the violation of human rights.

4) End of misaaq and raza (in their current form and practice): These two tenets have been used by the Kothar as instruments of control and harassment. Again, there is no justification of these practices in our tradition or in our books.

5) Freedom of conscience: Beyond the religious sphere, the dai and his establishment has no business with the secular affairs of Bohras.

6) End of the cult surrounding the dai: The dai is an important figure in the bohra scheme of things, and is essentially a spiritual guide but no more. His worship and deification as a demigod is unislamic and goes against our Ismaili/Mustalian faith and tradition.

7) End to taxes: Bohras are subjected to a number of taxes (wajebat etc.) from cradle to grave, and most of it is collected under duress. This practice must end. However, whatever legitimate taxes that must be collected must belong to the local jamaat. The jamaat must spend that money for the benefit and welfare of its members - and other poor jamaats - if they have extra funds to spare. The money from the people belongs to the people - not to the Dai or the kothar. The Kothar is an illegitimate, cruel and unnecessary institution. It has not right to exist.

These are the main issues, but remember that control and coercion has increased many fold since the reform movement started. The cult of the dai and the royal family and the kothar are firmly entrenched into the Bohra psyche and reality. This is will give you an idea of what we reformists are up against. Besides, the kothar has the power of propaganda of which you and other abdes are perfect victims.
In short, you want the end of Bohraism. You want us to join the millions of other pseudo-Muslims.

Humsafar
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#43

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:53 pm

Is that all you could come up with? And "bohraism"? What in god's sweet name is that? There is no such thing as "boharism". If you have read carefully and understood anything, none of the issues have anything to do with religion. If anything, the reformists are only highlighting the distortion and perversion of Dawoodi Bohra faith and tradition. The cult of the dai, the royal family and the kothar are the recent inventions - and if this is what you call "Bohraism" then it is you and the abdes like you who are psuedo-Muslims and even psuedo-Bohras.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#44

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:49 pm

profastian wrote:In short, you want the end of Bohraism.
Definately, because that is exactly what Allah also wants otherwise He wouldnt have sent Prophets to educate the mass and stop them from doing idol worship (like vyakti puja to a dai) and following a cult. The last Prophet (s.a.w.) was sent to spread Islam and his followers are called 'Muslims', hence people following other religions cannot be the followers of Prophet (s.a.w.) and bohraism recently has become a religion/cult which boasts of a separate identity and refuses to identify itself as Muslims. Havent you always heard the abdes saying....'hame to bohra chhe, olo to musalman chhe', an incident which took place during the recent gujarat genocide carried out by the dai's friend, narendra modi is a live example.

trvoice
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#45

Unread post by trvoice » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:35 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
profastian wrote:In short, you want the end of Bohraism.
Definately, because that is exactly what Allah also wants otherwise He wouldnt have sent Prophets to educate the mass and stop them from doing idol worship (like vyakti puja to a dai) and following a cult. The last Prophet (s.a.w.) was sent to spread Islam and his followers are called 'Muslims', hence people following other religions cannot be the followers of Prophet (s.a.w.) and bohraism recently has become a religion/cult which boasts of a separate identity and refuses to identify itself as Muslims. Havent you always heard the abdes saying....'hame to bohra chhe, olo to musalman chhe', an incident which took place during the recent gujarat genocide carried out by the dai's friend, narendra modi is a live example.
Now thats a big LOL. Its like a dog chasing a car even though he know he cannot drive it.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#46

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:13 pm

trvoice wrote:Now thats a big LOL. Its like a dog chasing a car even though he know he cannot drive it.
You have run out of arguments.

aqs
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#47

Unread post by aqs » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:42 am

Humsafar

though you have not posted these points directly to me but never the less i will like to comment
Humsafar wrote: 1) Accountability/Transparency : what happens to the tens of millions of money collected from the community? Reformists demand that there should be a proper account for this collection (as per Hazrat Ali's integrity regarding baitul maal) and that the money be spent on the welfare of the community.
there is a basic difference in our belief in Dai, you believe him to be Kul Masoom where by he can commit mistakes so accountability can be asked, where as all the DB barring Progressives believe him to be vicegerent of Imam and acting on his behalf. so we dont believe him to be committing any mistakes and whatever he does is either for the betterment of the society or has some deeper meaning which is not clear at the moment.

You have Quoted Moula Ali(as) example of Baitul maal, so you will also remember that Fatimid Imams never declared any balance sheet despite being the King and accountable in you words to society at large


2) Democratic, autonomous setup of local jamaats: This is deliberately misinterpreted as democratic election of the Dai. This is not true. By democratic set up, we mean that jamaat managing committees must be elected by the local members and NOT handpicked by the "ousider" aamil. By autonomous we mean that the affairs of the jamaat be run by the managing committee in the interest and benefit of its members, and that it be accountable to its members and not the aamil or the Kothar. Also, we demand that all local Bohra properties should be owned, maintained and managed by the local jamaats.
I very well know and understand that Reformists wants a democratic setup, and they dont question religious duties of Dai. so lets concentrate on democtratc point only

when you talk about Jamaats elected democratically then in the hind sight democracy run in present state of India come into sight, where corruption, nepotism and money rules the roost, now in a ideal state nothing of this sort will ever happen, but you will also agree that idealism leads to corruption in few years time when the present leaders who fought for it wane into oblivion.

in short democracy is not viable in a vast scenario, and when 350 plus jamaats will have issue where will they run for decisions, to local courts where decisions come after years of turmoil and in your lifetime if you are lucky or to Dai who has no powers except doing his religious duties.

3) End of social-boycott: There is no justification for its practice in our tradition or in our books, and it amounts to the violation of human rights.
Social Boycott is ended way back, but what i have heard is that its other way round where Reformists dont allow any main stream Bohras into their Jamaat khana in Udaipur.
4) End of misaaq and raza (in their current form and practice): These two tenets have been used by the Kothar as instruments of control and harassment. Again, there is no justification of these practices in our tradition or in our books.
Both have their value and were a part of Ismaili tradition, if you want to discuss the same i can point you to the thread where A A engineer and few other have discussed it extensively
5) Freedom of conscience: Beyond the religious sphere, the dai and his establishment has no business with the secular affairs of Bohras.
Freedom of conscience or freedom from Religion ?
6) End of the cult surrounding the dai: The dai is an important figure in the bohra scheme of things, and is essentially a spiritual guide but no more. His worship and deification as a demigod is unislamic and goes against our Ismaili/Mustalian faith and tradition.
No deitification is being done, if some one elevates him to the level he is not or call him or believes in him as Allah then its shirq and totally uncalled for and not at all endorsed by Kothar
7) End to taxes: Bohras are subjected to a number of taxes (wajebat etc.) from cradle to grave, and most of it is collected under duress. This practice must end. However, whatever legitimate taxes that must be collected must belong to the local jamaat. The jamaat must spend that money for the benefit and welfare of its members - and other poor jamaats - if they have extra funds to spare. The money from the people belongs to the people - not to the Dai or the kothar
Taxes were always there, its the practice of Shias to gives 1/5th of their income to Imam and we follow the same, people are not asked to pay khumus and whatever they pay is much less then 20% of their salaries.

already required amount is being spent on the well fare of the community and Dai and his family earn enough money in Ziyafats to take care of their life style
The Kothar is an illegitimate, cruel and unnecessary institution. It has not right to exist.
first of all its not illegitimate as you will need people to run the community or to do admin stuff and these people are called Kothar. just because of few isolated instances you can not malign a perfectly running machinery
These are the main issues, but remember that control and coercion has increased many fold since the reform movement started. The cult of the dai and the royal family and the kothar are firmly entrenched into the Bohra psyche and reality. This is will give you an idea of what we reformists are up against. Besides, the kothar has the power of propaganda of which you and other abdes are perfect victims.
When Insaaf saheb talks about achievements of reform movement he says due to Reformists coercion and other practices have stopped and now you say it has increased so which reformists word we should accept.


P.S.
this has nothing to do with current discussion and its for my personnel info
By any chance can you confirm what are Business interests(source of income) of A. A. Engineer

Humsafar
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#48

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:12 am

aqs, i'm out for a few days. Will respond when I'm back.

godfearer
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#49

Unread post by godfearer » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:07 am

i dont see anything wrong these pic

SBM
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#50

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:05 am

Aqs
so we dont believe him to be committing any mistakes and whatever he does is either for the betterment of the society or has some deeper meaning which is not clear at the moment.
Aqs
I do not mean to harp but if you say he does not commit any mistakes, do you think apologizing on National TV after the Bohra-Sunni incident was NOT a mistake or to call names in public was NOT a mistake. Now if he had a deeper meaning, was that meaning was to cause death(I would not call it Shadat) of innocent Bohras. That incident was not caused by any Shazaadas but by Syedna directly and it was him who personally apologized on National TV so can you please clarify what was the deeper meaning of his action going on National TV to apologize and btw one apologizes for his/her mistakes only, if no mistakes are committed, you do not apologize period.

aqs
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#51

Unread post by aqs » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:53 am

omabharti wrote:
Aqs
so we dont believe him to be committing any mistakes and whatever he does is either for the betterment of the society or has some deeper meaning which is not clear at the moment.
Aqs
I do not mean to harp but if you say he does not commit any mistakes, do you think apologizing on National TV after the Bohra-Sunni incident was NOT a mistake or to call names in public was NOT a mistake. Now if he had a deeper meaning, was that meaning was to cause death(I would not call it Shadat) of innocent Bohras. That incident was not caused by any Shazaadas but by Syedna directly and it was him who personally apologized on National TV so can you please clarify what was the deeper meaning of his action going on National TV to apologize and btw one apologizes for his/her mistakes only, if no mistakes are committed, you do not apologize period.

Oma,

Your logic is above my head.

for you might be the three salafi khalifa's are reverable but for us they are not and we say lanat on them, Now if Syedna(tus) said lanat on the three and Aisha then their was no wrong. And please go through the media section of this site and see if Syedna(tus) himself had apologised ?? or for that reason do you even call that a apology.

sometimes people take decisions by seeing the greater cause in sight.

sometime back you had mentioned in another thread about Aqa Hassan's truce with Mawia, so remember saying of Rasullah(saw)

Imam Hasan O Hussain Imamama Haqqin, Qama av qada (their can be some grammatical mistakes by me in quotation)

meaning Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain are Imam of Haq whether they fight or they do a truce.

same applies to their Dai, whatever he does is Haq

SBM
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#52

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:51 pm

Aqs
The whole debate was about Masoom, I have even asked people about Surah Abasa where I thought that Prophet was rebuked by Allah but some of the people on this board put their theory that the Surah was meant for Othman, while majority of Muslims believe that the Surah was meant for Prophet and not any other human being since Prophet was the only receiving messages and guidance from Allah
I have said before I am not a Scholar so I just put on this forum what I learned from different people except from our Aami because one has to take Oath for not disclosing what you learn in Sabak and to me if I do not share my knowledge and try to dissect, that knowledge become rotten.

aqs
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#53

Unread post by aqs » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:46 pm

omabharti wrote:Aqs
The whole debate was about Masoom, I have even asked people about Surah Abasa where I thought that Prophet was rebuked by Allah but some of the people on this board put their theory that the Surah was meant for Othman, while majority of Muslims believe that the Surah was meant for Prophet and not any other human being since Prophet was the only receiving messages and guidance from Allah
I have said before I am not a Scholar so I just put on this forum what I learned from different people except from our Aami because one has to take Oath for not disclosing what you learn in Sabak and to me if I do not share my knowledge and try to dissect, that knowledge become rotten.
from where i see you are not doing in any headway in Ahle Bait's Ilm because of your reservation for Oath. lest you change your attitude

porus
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#54

Unread post by porus » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:48 pm

In the article 'Doctrine of Infallibility in Ismaili Tradition' on this site, Dr. Engineer has argued that there can only be one ma'sum on earth and since Imam is present, although in satr, the Dai cannot also be ma'sum. Hence the concept of kal ma'asum was invented for the Dai.

What does kal ma'sum mean? Literally it means “like ma'sum', a completely meaningless phrase. Why not call him 'kal Imam'?

If a manager of a business is absent, deputy manager may conduct business within limits prescribed by the business policy. Similarly, Dai already calls himself Deputy (Naib) of Imam. Nobody seems to know what the limits of Dai's conduct are supposed to be. Why not call him Deputy Ma'sum too? Sounds rarther silly, doesn't it.

I have argued on the basis of the Quran and hadith of the Prophet that infallibility (isma) cannot apply to any Imam after Husain. Imam Zainul Abideen to Imam al-Tayyib were not ma'sum. The idea of deputizing infallibility is such a ludicrous idea that it can be dismissed purely on logical grounds.

Imam Husain was infallible because he was made as such by the ayat of tatheer. In Ismaili tradition, when Imam is appointed, he miraculously and suddenly becomes a ma'sum. Where is the justification for this in the Quran? The idea is the result of post-hoc and ad-hoc development of the Shia metaphysics. And like the metaphysics itself, it is a speculation to tie loose ends.

In conclusion, no Imam after Husain, let alone any Dai, is ma'sum.

SBM
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Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#55

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:20 pm

Aqs
site and see if Syedna(tus) himself had apologised ?? or for that reason do you even call that a apology.
Aqs
Now you are playing with Semantics. If some one on behalf of Syedna apologized, it is the same as Syedna did. Just like Dai is an extension of Imam (as per your definition) then anyone speaking on behalf of Dai is same as Dai is speaking. Reading a statement and taking a blame for creating a riot is as good as apologizing and once again only people who read or allowed some one to read those statements on their behalf are the [b]people who made the mistakes[/b]
As Porus pointed out that even Dai can make mistakes or he is Masum after all he is a human being.

Humsafar
Posts: 2531
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#56

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:15 pm

aqs wrote:there is a basic difference in our belief in Dai, you believe him to be Kul Masoom where by he can commit mistakes so accountability can be asked, where as all the DB barring Progressives believe him to be vicegerent of Imam and acting on his behalf. so we dont believe him to be committing any mistakes and whatever he does is either for the betterment of the society or has some deeper meaning which is not clear at the moment.

You have Quoted Moula Ali(as) example of Baitul maal, so you will also remember that Fatimid Imams never declared any balance sheet despite being the King and accountable in you words to society at large
As Porus has pointed out, he is not and cannot be masoum. Even so, you many believe him to be whatever you want, his track record shows that he is not masoum. The talk about the "betterment of society" and "deeper meaning" is so much fluff. When it comes to honesty and integrity, Maula Ali is the standard that the dai must aspire to. The reference to Fatimid Imams is irrelevant. Besides, you must know they were running an empire, the values and culture of that time was different. Nobody dared to or did not feel the need to ask for accounts. Today Dai is not running an empire, he has no need for the vast amounts of money he collects. How and where that money is spent is a legitimate and natural concern.
aqs wrote:when you talk about Jamaats elected democratically then in the hind sight democracy run in present state of India come into sight, where corruption, nepotism and money rules the roost, now in a ideal state nothing of this sort will ever happen, but you will also agree that idealism leads to corruption in few years time when the present leaders who fought for it wane into oblivion.

in short democracy is not viable in a vast scenario, and when 350 plus jamaats will have issue where will they run for decisions, to local courts where decisions come after years of turmoil and in your lifetime if you are lucky or to Dai who has no powers except doing his religious duties.
I have yet to come across a more stupid argument against democracy. Nothing is perfect. Islam also started out as "idealism" and see what it has led to. Does it mean we do away with Islam? The point of democratic set up is to give a say to the people, that members of the jamaat must have a stake in the decisions and policies of the jamaat, and the best way to achieve this is that they elect their own executive committee which is accountable to them. Actually with small outfits like jamaat (as opposed to countries like India) democracy can work much better and is easy to manage with checks and balances. Don't you think there will less corruption and high-handedness with a democratic and accountable authority than aamils and local fat cats who are not answerable to anyone?

It is not a vast setup. With 350 jamaats there will be 350 individual, self-contained democracies. For disputes and differences they don't have to run to the courts - they would have rules and constitutions by which to arrive at decisions, and may seek advice and guidance form the elders or from the aamil if he's impartial and just.
aqs wrote:Social Boycott is ended way back, but what i have heard is that its other way round where Reformists dont allow any main stream Bohras into their Jamaat khana in Udaipur.
This is not true. Baarat is still being applied - although not so stringently in Udaipur and that too because of the pending court case. Outside Udaipur, baraat and chithhi-band is still used to manipulate people. Yes, it is true that reformists do not allow orthodox into their jamaatkhana because they are afraid that if they allow them the orthodox due to their large numbers will take over the control and ownership of the jamaatkhana. This is more of a strategic/political decision, not social boycott. It is rumoured that orthodox in Udaipur are again being asked to "baraat" reformists.
aqs wrote:Both have their value and were a part of Ismaili tradition, if you want to discuss the same i can point you to the thread where A A engineer and few other have discussed it extensively
Razaa and misaaq may have had some historical value but not any more. From all documented evidence and daily experience of people it is clear that these tenets are being used control and coerce people.
aqs wrote:Freedom of conscience or freedom from Religion ?
No, freedom from the interference in personal and secular lives of bohras.
aqs wrote:No deitification is being done, if some one elevates him to the level he is not or call him or believes in him as Allah then its shirq and totally uncalled for and not at all endorsed by Kothar
You are in denial. The evidence of deification is everywhere - from the ubiquitous photos to kadambosi to folded hands to bent backs to two rakat namaaz and on and on. The dai has become the centre of Bohra universe. A relative of mine believes in Dai the way one believes in God. For argument's sake, let's assume that Kothar doesn't endorse this kind of behaviour but it doesn't discourage it either. So the Kothar and the Dai are guilty of tolerating shirk.
aqs wrote:Taxes were always there, its the practice of Shias to gives 1/5th of their income to Imam and we follow the same, people are not asked to pay khumus and whatever they pay is much less then 20% of their salaries.

already required amount is being spent on the well fare of the community and Dai and his family earn enough money in Ziyafats to take care of their life style
Welfare of the community? How? Where?
"Earn money in Ziyafats"? What a way to earn money!!
aqs wrote:first of all its not illegitimate as you will need people to run the community or to do admin stuff and these people are called Kothar. just because of few isolated instances you can not malign a perfectly running machinery
With independent local jamaats there will no need for a central and unaccountable authority to run the community. Community will run by the jamaats. However, one can see a need for a cetnralised outfit to organise community wide events and such - and this could be formed by all the member jamaats and also financed by them and is accountable to them.
aqs wrote: When Insaaf saheb talks about achievements of reform movement he says due to Reformists coercion and other practices have stopped and now you say it has increased so which reformists word we should accept.
Yes and no. It has increased for the gullible and decreased for those who take a stand and challenge the aamil and his hangers-on. But generally the grip on the community through indoctrination and propaganda has tightened.
aqs wrote:By any chance can you confirm what are Business interests(source of income) of A. A. Engineer
I really don't know the specifics. What I do know is that he earns royalties from his books and articles. He runs institutes on Islamic research and on secularism in society. Both institutes are funded by donations and grants from sources national and international. I'm guessing he must be taking a salary as director of these institutes. However, not a single paisa goes to him personally from any of the reformist jamaats.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#57

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:21 pm

Imam Husain was infallible because he was made as such by the ayat of tatheer.
Not true. We have discussed this ayat in great detail. There is no mention, in the ayat itself, of anyone specifically being made infallible other than the general family of the prophet. The shias choose to exclude the wives from his family and the sunnis choose not to do so. He was made infallible by the prophet through the hadith of the cloak.

This "infallibility" is the pre-cursor to the idol worship of the shias.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#58

Unread post by aqs » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:01 am

Humsafar wrote: As Porus has pointed out, he is not and cannot be masoum. Even so, you many believe him to be whatever you want, his track record shows that he is not masoum. The talk about the "betterment of society" and "deeper meaning" is so much fluff. When it comes to honesty and integrity, Maula Ali is the standard that the dai must aspire to. The reference to Fatimid Imams is irrelevant. Besides, you must know they were running an empire, the values and culture of that time was different. Nobody dared to or did not feel the need to ask for accounts. Today Dai is not running an empire, he has no need for the vast amounts of money he collects. How and where that money is spent is a legitimate and natural concern.
same goes for you also, you can or cant believe in him it does not affect the majority, your figment of imagination and some rare incidents of corruptions from few individuals will not be good enough for majority to give a second thought to Dai being Masoom
I have yet to come across a more stupid argument against democracy. Nothing is perfect. Islam also started out as "idealism" and see what it has led to. Does it mean we do away with Islam? The point of democratic set up is to give a say to the people, that members of the jamaat must have a stake in the decisions and policies of the jamaat, and the best way to achieve this is that they elect their own executive committee which is accountable to them. Actually with small outfits like jamaat (as opposed to countries like India) democracy can work much better and is easy to manage with checks and balances. Don't you think there will less corruption and high-handedness with a democratic and accountable authority than aamils and local fat cats who are not answerable to anyone?

It is not a vast setup. With 350 jamaats there will be 350 individual, self-contained democracies. For disputes and differences they don't have to run to the courts - they would have rules and constitutions by which to arrive at decisions, and may seek advice and guidance form the elders or from the aamil if he's impartial and just.
what you are proposing looks idealistic in approach but what i have mentioned is the practicality of the scenario, Islam was never based on Democratic society it was always a autocratic society based on Prophet, Imam or Dai as the leader
This is not true. Baarat is still being applied - although not so stringently in Udaipur and that too because of the pending court case. Outside Udaipur, baraat and chithhi-band is still used to manipulate people. Yes, it is true that reformists do not allow orthodox into their jamaatkhana because they are afraid that if they allow them the orthodox due to their large numbers will take over the control and ownership of the jamaatkhana. This is more of a strategic/political decision, not social boycott. It is rumoured that orthodox in Udaipur are again being asked to "baraat" reformists.
Wow so if you dont allow Main stream in your Jamat khana then its tactical decision and the non existent baraat is a issue, Reformists are running jamaat in just one city and see what it has come to, just imagine when this Ideal role model of yours will be emulated in other cities what will be the condition definitely.
Razaa and misaaq may have had some historical value but not any more. From all documented evidence and daily experience of people it is clear that these tenets are being used control and coerce people.
you have freed yourself from the clutches but what was the reason that people left your freedom and went back to "bondage of slavery".
aqs wrote:Freedom of conscience or freedom from Religion ?
No, freedom from the interference in personal and secular lives of bohras.
no one interferes, people go to ask for suggestions, no one pushes them down their throats
You are in denial. The evidence of deification is everywhere - from the ubiquitous photos to kadambosi to folded hands to bent backs to two rakat namaaz and on and on. The dai has become the centre of Bohra universe. A relative of mine believes in Dai the way one believes in God. For argument's sake, let's assume that Kothar doesn't endorse this kind of behaviour but it doesn't discourage it either. So the Kothar and the Dai are guilty of tolerating shirk.
I have already agreed before that if someone is elevating his(tus) status to what he is not then its Gulu.
and your relative like countless other Bohras is doing shirq though unknowingly. If corrected they can realize their mistake
Welfare of the community? How? Where?
"Earn money in Ziyafats"? What a way to earn money!!
Qardan hasana, Rasme Saifee, Huge infrastructure projects, discounted travels to Maqamat Muqaddasa, business counselling, giving newly constructed houses to the needy, repairing old dilapidated houses where ever needed and asked for. list can be quite long

if he earns money in Ziyafat then what the problem, atleast it will take care of his so called Lavish life style
With independent local jamaats there will no need for a central and unaccountable authority to run the community. Community will run by the jamaats. However, one can see a need for a cetnralised outfit to organise community wide events and such - and this could be formed by all the member jamaats and also financed by them and is accountable to them.
already refuted above that democracy in its current form is not viable

aqs wrote:By any chance can you confirm what are Business interests(source of income) of A. A. Engineer
I really don't know the specifics. What I do know is that he earns royalties from his books and articles. He runs institutes on Islamic research and on secularism in society. Both institutes are funded by donations and grants from sources national and international. I'm guessing he must be taking a salary as director of these institutes. However, not a single paisa goes to him personally from any of the reformist jamaats.
does he have any stake in a ink manufacturing unit.

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#59

Unread post by profastian » Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:22 am

porus wrote:In Ismaili tradition, when Imam is appointed, he miraculously and suddenly becomes a ma'sum.
You are wrong here mate. He doesn't suddenly become Masum on appointment. He is Masum by birth. A Imam is a imam by birth. (I guess this is a bohra tradition not a Ismaili one, hence the aga khan debacle).

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#60

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:43 am

aqs wrote: does he have any stake in a ink manufacturing unit.
No he doesn't have any stake in a ink manufacturing unit. The unit 'Alma Ink" has been closed nearly 15 year back and there was another person name Asghar Shahid was managing partner of that unit. Its true that both the partners were in reformist group but one of them joined the main stream and Mr. Asghar shahid is also planning to join the mainstream. This unit was not in Mumbai

Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer has nothing to do with it.

Regards