is this the way progs perform majlis?

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Humsafar
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#61

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:53 am

aqs wrote:same goes for you also, you can or cant believe in him it does not affect the majority, your figment of imagination and some rare incidents of corruptions from few individuals will not be good enough for majority to give a second thought to Dai being Masoom
The Dai is not masoum and you cannot support this claim either by tradition or by any of the Ismaili/Mustalian soruce books.
aqs wrote:what you are proposing looks idealistic in approach but what i have mentioned is the practicality of the scenario, Islam was never based on Democratic society it was always a autocratic society based on Prophet, Imam or Dai as the leader
There is nothing idealistic about it. That people should be able to manage their own affairs is only natural, right and just. And this has nothing to do with Islam, and you are being dishonest and deceptive to bring Islam into this argument. Running and managing a local jamat is a secular and administrative affair. The dai is only a religious/spiritual leader, there is not justification for him to own all bohra properties.
aqs wrote:Wow so if you dont allow Main stream in your Jamat khana then its tactical decision and the non existent baraat is a issue, Reformists are running jamaat in just one city and see what it has come to, just imagine when this Ideal role model of yours will be emulated in other cities what will be the condition definitely.
Please understand that the ownership of jamaat properties is at the heart of reformist struggle in udaipur. The reformists want to keep them under the jamaat (and people's) management and ownership. The orthodox want to take over and wakf it to Maula. Barring orthodox form jamatkhana is not social-boycott. It would be social-boycott if reformists were told not socialise with the orthodox. This is not the case. On the other hand, social-boycott is still being practices by the kothar everywhere. Stop being dishonest and deceptive.
aqs wrote:you have freed yourself from the clutches but what was the reason that people left your freedom and went back to "bondage of slavery".
There are many compulsions, and others and I have elaborated at length on this elsewhere on this forum. Also some people have a tendency to "escape from freedom" as Eric Fromm has said. Being a reformist requires courage and commitment and not many people have either the stomach or the heart for it. And as Aldous Huxley has said that after a certain conditioning people begin to love their slavery.
aqs wrote:no one interferes, people go to ask for suggestions, no one pushes them down their throats
Really? Dictating people what to wear, how to shit, whom to vote has nothing to do with interference!!! Besides, people have been conditioned to "go ask for suggestions" - a not so subtle way to control and manipulate their lives.
aqs wrote:I have already agreed before that if someone is elevating his(tus) status to what he is not then its Gulu.
and your relative like countless other Bohras is doing shirq though unknowingly. If corrected they can realize their mistake
You are in extreme denial. If you want to be willfully blind no one can force you to see.
aqs wrote: Qardan hasana, Rasme Saifee, Huge infrastructure projects, discounted travels to Maqamat Muqaddasa, business counselling, giving newly constructed houses to the needy, repairing old dilapidated houses where ever needed and asked for. list can be quite long
Can you please elaborate on each one of them (perhaps on a separate thread) as I want to find out how much of Maula's and Kotahar's money, effort and resources are used in these schemes.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#62

Unread post by aqs » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:07 am

@Humsafar,

I am out of town for a fortnight, Inshallah will reply once back.

Maas Salaama

mukhlis52
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:35 am

Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#63

Unread post by mukhlis52 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:12 am

just wanted to knw whats the reason of pre-fixing asghar in asghar ali. Normally the traditional name is ali asghar, asghar being an adjective for ali, means 'ali the smaller or the younger'
asghar seems a bit out of place wen put as a prefix, as it is an arabic name essentially. Just out of curiousity. Hope noone takes this to heart.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#64

Unread post by aqs » Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:06 am

Humsafar wrote:
aqs wrote:same goes for you also, you can or cant believe in him it does not affect the majority, your figment of imagination and some rare incidents of corruptions from few individuals will not be good enough for majority to give a second thought to Dai being Masoom
The Dai is not masoum and you cannot support this claim either by tradition or by any of the Ismaili/Mustalian soruce books.
yes i cant support my claim as its based on faith, do you believe any one to be masoom
Humsafar wrote:
aqs wrote:what you are proposing looks idealistic in approach but what i have mentioned is the practicality of the scenario, Islam was never based on Democratic society it was always a autocratic society based on Prophet, Imam or Dai as the leader
There is nothing idealistic about it. That people should be able to manage their own affairs is only natural, right and just. And this has nothing to do with Islam, and you are being dishonest and deceptive to bring Islam into this argument. Running and managing a local jamat is a secular and administrative affair. The dai is only a religious/spiritual leader, there is not justification for him to own all bohra properties.
i have already contended that when the people who brought reform pass away they leave a legacy of corruption or lethargy at best, this is one of the reason why democracy is not preached under Islam, when you bring Dai in any argument then definitely we are discussing Islam.

as pointed earlier Problem lies in our perception of Dai and his duties, your belief does not hold him more then a priest whose only job is religious duties where as we the Majority DB's believe him to be our guide and well wisher in religious and worldly matters
Humsafar wrote:
aqs wrote:Wow so if you dont allow Main stream in your Jamat khana then its tactical decision and the non existent baraat is a issue, Reformists are running jamaat in just one city and see what it has come to, just imagine when this Ideal role model of yours will be emulated in other cities what will be the condition definitely.
Please understand that the ownership of jamaat properties is at the heart of reformist struggle in udaipur. The reformists want to keep them under the jamaat (and people's) management and ownership. The orthodox want to take over and wakf it to Maula. Barring orthodox form jamatkhana is not social-boycott. It would be social-boycott if reformists were told not socialise with the orthodox. This is not the case. On the other hand, social-boycott is still being practices by the kothar everywhere. Stop being dishonest and deceptive.
please come out of this child like mode of accusing me of dishonesty, i have already pointed out the double standards played out by Progressives in just one Jamaat hold under their control, and one of the reason people are leaving your fold is your dishonesty, accept it before you are left with nothing but memories
Humsafar wrote:
aqs wrote:you have freed yourself from the clutches but what was the reason that people left your freedom and went back to "bondage of slavery".
There are many compulsions, and others and I have elaborated at length on this elsewhere on this forum. Also some people have a tendency to "escape from freedom" as Eric Fromm has said. Being a reformist requires courage and commitment and not many people have either the stomach or the heart for it. And as Aldous Huxley has said that after a certain conditioning people begin to love their slavery.
allude yourself, its the best pastime you can indulge yourself
Humsafar wrote:
aqs wrote:no one interferes, people go to ask for suggestions, no one pushes them down their throats
Really? Dictating people what to wear, how to shit, whom to vote has nothing to do with interference!!! Besides, people have been conditioned to "go ask for suggestions" - a not so subtle way to control and manipulate their lives.
all this has given a image to DB's and i think Progs fear the unity among DB's most, because a disintegrated lot is easy to fight instead of people who form a mass who looks alike, talk alike and act alike and follow a single leader
Humsafar wrote:
aqs wrote:I have already agreed before that if someone is elevating his(tus) status to what he is not then its Gulu.
and your relative like countless other Bohras is doing shirq though unknowingly. If corrected they can realize their mistake
You are in extreme denial. If you want to be willfully blind no one can force you to see.
you are too rigid on your stand and do not want to acknowledge the most obvious fact
Humsafar wrote:
aqs wrote: Qardan hasana, Rasme Saifee, Huge infrastructure projects, discounted travels to Maqamat Muqaddasa, business counselling, giving newly constructed houses to the needy, repairing old dilapidated houses where ever needed and asked for. list can be quite long
Can you please elaborate on each one of them (perhaps on a separate thread) as I want to find out how much of Maula's and Kotahar's money, effort and resources are used in these schemes.
i am not privy to the accounts of Kothar, and whatever Syedna(tus) spends it does not depend on whose money it was as we believe him to be the owner of our money and lives, so its on his discretion how he spends

Humsafar
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: is this the way progs perform majlis?

#65

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:09 am

Aqs, your faith for the dai's "masoomiyat" has no basis in the scriptures. You display similar blind faith regarding the dai's duties and functions. His qualification and roles are documented and well established by tradition. Please refer to the books and see how it compares with the status and role that the dai has assumed today. You dismiss democratic setup on a misplaced idea that it might lead to corruption. But you do not want to consider that a handpicked (jamaat) administration of a small and powerful coterie is likely to be far more corrupt, dictatorial and unjust - which is what the most jamaats are under the tutelage of appointed aamils. As for people leaving the reformists fold, that's fine - a value-based struggle is not for everyone. It shows how most of us have been robbed of our humanity - we value our daily conveniences more than our dignity and self-respect. And no, we reformists do not fear the "unity" of dawoodi bohras, we are only saying that this unity is born of fear and pressure. Forcing people to wear, behave and think in a certain way is inhuman, and to do it in the name of religion is abuse of religion. All that this unity has produced is herd mentality and closed minds. The dumbing down of Dawoodi Bohras is complete. Yes, I do not expect you to be privy to Kothar's accounts but at least you must begin to wonder what happens to all that money.