Khalifa and Siritual guide

[Regal]

I want to discuss this using common sense rather than what is spoon-fed to us by "scholars".

Lets assume for arguments sake, that the events at gadir -e- khum took place. the Holy Prophet pbuh exclaimed "man kunto maula fahaza ali un maula".


In final days of the Prophet pbuh 's life, he was very sick. and everybody knew that he was on his deathbed. in the months of his last illness, did nobody come and ask the him about succession? if it was so important that a public announcement be made in medina about whatever system was to succeed him, wouldnt the Prophet pbuh have done so? atleast someone would have thought about it right? But lets face it, the Prophet DIDNOT publically announce a head/king of whoever was going to succeed him as King of Arabia.

At Khum, he announced Ali a.s will be a Maula to those to whom the Prophet pbuh was Maula. Maula literaly means protector. and it is generally used to mean "spiritual guide" when refering to a person. it has no meaning or intention to mean king/khalifa.

In this light, it can be that the Prophet pbuh didnot announce his successor during his last days in Medina as the people already knew that Ali a.s is going to succeed him as Maula, concerning religious/spiritual knowledge. And this is exactly what happened. People used to come to Ali a.s if they had religious questions even the khalifas consulted him and Ali a.s was an advisor to them. Ali a.s gave sermons and preached islam in Arabia.

Rasulullah s.a.w didnot name a king/leader for the arabs because this is not how the arab society functions. they are a tribal people with a tribal sense of social class system. the procedure in such matters falls on the tribal leaders to sit together and decide. this comitee is called a "shura". The "divaniya" system in kuwaiti arabs is a kind of shura.
The Prophet pbuh left the matter of king of arabs to be decided in the arab way. by a shura comprised of the social leaders of the largest/influential tribes in arabia, a leader was then chosen. it has nothing to do with gadir-e-khum as this is a completely different responsibility than that of spiritual guide.

This is what i personally believe, that khalifa is only meant to be leader of arabs not king of All muslims as there can be other muslim kings outside arabia. and A post of spiritual guide has nothing to do with khilafat. and therefore there was no usurping in this regard. does it make sense?

[asif786]

Was Umar selected by Shura? if not why? Who gave Abubakr the right to elect Umar? When the prophet saw left it to the people to appoint khalifa why Abubakr did not do the same?

[S. Insaf]

A question just came to my mind:

The common Bohras have no access in the affairs of Dawat then:
Under the iron curtain how do we believe that appointment of Mazoon Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb as Dai was done with the inspiration (Ilham) of Imamuz-Zaman?

[Humsafar]

Regal, what you say makes a lot of sense. But this is nothing short of heresy for shia orothodxy which has dug its heels deep and for long on this issue. It will not budge, nor will the sunni opposition who deny the primacy of ahle-al bayt. Both sides are bickering and killing each other for more than 14 centuries and, unfortunately, may continue to do so for another 14.
This topic has been discussed endlessly on this board, and I hope this won't provide fodder for yet another shia-sunni slug fest.

[Regal]

asif786, do you believe that the responsibilities of spiritual guide and khalifa are two different things? and it is not necessary for Ali a.s to be a khalifa to be considered as a spiritual guide? Spiritual guide must possess religious knowledge and a different set of qualities than a khalifa, whos job is to run a state, managing its finances laws, armies etc etc.

i dont know whether the second khalifa was chosen by a shura or did the first khalifa just named him. It does not matter as he was given bayt (oath) by the people. (including Ali a.s). Ali a.s didnot have the political/social influence at that time to become khalifa, and it was only later the people put their trust in him and chose him as khalifa.

All i want to do is differentiate b/w khilafat and spiritual guide, both of which are very separate things. To be considered as a maula, it is not required to be khalifa. The matter of succession was left by the Prophet pbuh for the influential arab leaders to decide among themselves as it is not related to religion. If using his political influence as a quraish elder, Abu Bakar is chosen Khalifa and people gave oath to him, it is not usurping Ali a.s "haq" !! Ali a.s 's haq was only to become maula (which is related to religion), in which capacity he served.


Humsafar, you are right. i dont want it to become sunni-shia one-upmanship. lets use common sense and look at this as Muslims.

[Muslim First]

lets use common sense and look at this as Muslims.

What does this mean?

[Regal]

lets use common sense and look at this as Muslims.

What does this mean?

i dont know, lets look at this as peace-loving, ego-less adults if you prefer.

[Muslim First]

i dont know, lets look at this as peace-loving, ego-less adults if you prefer.

Khalifat and spiritual guide!!!!

Dil ko behlane ke liye ye khayal Achaa he

I would like to participate as peace-loving, ego-less adult but this is not place for it.

Wasalaam

[Regal]

haha dil behal jaye yehi kaafi hai.

[aqs]

@Regal,

its a nice point, but then the question arises in what capacity first khalifa nominated second one, second introduced new kind of Salat, altered or introduced new kalema in Azaan, third sanctioned the copy of Quran.

that khalifa is only meant to be leader of arabs not king of All muslims as there can be other muslim kings outside arabia. and A post of spiritual guide has nothing to do with khilafat. and therefore there was no usurping in this regard

if they were just Khalifas in the secular sense then they should have not interefered with religion and should have left it to "Moula"

[ozmujaheed]

Has anyone for a moment thought the same silly myopic reasons that as recently as the PDB and Abde arguments or the Alavi and Dawoodi Bohras split, is the similar myopic argument of little substance and more ego on the basis that the Sunni and Shia arguments 1400 years ago exploded into a blood thirsty division.

These arguments were of political power, wealth inheritance, male ego around the then cultural attitudes , but over zealous followers have turned these second hand stories into a massive Islamic civilization tragedy and split.

Rather than Muslim leaders trying to heal those wounds and focus on common uniting aspects we have done an excellent job in emphasizing the differences and contineu the showing of my belief is better than yours and I will go to heaven while you will go to hell , for some ludicrous ritualistic reasons !.

[Muslim First]

aqs

second introduced new kind of Salat, altered or introduced new kalema in Azaan, third sanctioned the copy of Quran.

New kind of Salat?

You mean what we call Tarawih? Read the pages of this web site. Lot of discussion has taken place, find it, read it and if question then open up new thread in Islam section.

New Kalema in Azan?

Do you call "AsSalato Khairul minum nawam" (Excuse my transliteration) a Kalema? Do you know what it means? It is not Kalema. It means "prayers are better than sleep". It is used only in First call of Fajar prayer, precisely to remind sleeping Umma that the prayers are better than sleep. It is not used in Iqama.

And what about Shia call of azan which Includes Ali in Azan? That is called Kalema.

Third sanctioned the copy of Quran?

It was done by a committee with your demigod Hz Ali as advisor. He ruled for six years and had all powers to burn sectioned copies and produce real Qur'an Shias says he had it.

Come out of cave you have been living in. "Enough of Basi Kadhi ko Ubal"

Read br OZ's comments.

Wasalaam

[profastian]

if they were just Khalifas in the secular sense then they should have not interefered with religion and should have left it to "Moula"

Great man, you have got them cornered now Am sure they can't wriggle out of this one. Alas, they will just change the topic.

[Muslim First]

if they were just Khalifas in the secular sense then they should have not interefered with religion and should have left it to "Moula"

Dr Profestian

We are back in circular argument. Can you show mw a CLEAR Hadith or Aya appointing Ali as this religious authority?

[profastian]

if they were just Khalifas in the secular sense then they should have not interefered with religion and should have left it to "Moula"

Dr Profestian

We are back in circular argument. Can you show mw a CLEAR Hadith or Aya appointing Ali as this religious authority?

God man. You again have hit urself on the foot. "Man kunto maula ho fa haza Aliyan Maula"

[Muslim First]

And your Maula ruled for Six years as Khalifa and had both political and what you call religious authority.

He did not burn so clled Uthman's Qur'an.

He did not give Fadak back to Hassan and Hussain.

He did not change Adhan.

He did not stop Sahabas from praying Tarawih even though he never led it or participated in it.

[Regal]

its a nice point, but then the question arises in what capacity first khalifa nominated second one, second introduced new kind of Salat, altered or introduced new kalema in Azaan, third sanctioned the copy of Quran.

i am not saying that everything a khalifa did was right. they are humans and make mistakes including hz ali a.s. .

muslim first is right, Hz Ali a.s was part of the advisors of the khalifaas and he gave bayt to the first second and third khalifas. when he became khalifa he could have changed the salat, kalma and wrong quran.
if you believe that hz ali. a.s was infallible due to him being an imam and everthing he did was right, then he gave an oath to "awal thaani and thalith".though what the 4 khalifas did in their reigns needs a new thread.

[Muslim First]

profastian
God man. You again have hit urself on the foot. "Man kunto maula ho fa haza Aliyan Maula"

It is circular argument.

Majority did not believe it (what you mean) then and does not believe it now.

Hay majority is not preventing you from believing what you want to believe.

Just stop insults and muzzle your Maulana. He had apologised before and read it and obay it. You are his Abde and you kiss his foot all the time.

[profastian]

profastian
God man. You again have hit urself on the foot. "Man kunto maula ho fa haza Aliyan Maula"

It is circular argument.

Majority did not believe it (what you mean) then and does not believe it now.

Hay majority is not preventing you from believing what you want to believe.

Just stop insults and muzzle your Maulana. He had apologised before and read it and obay it. You are his Abde and you kiss his foot all the time.

And what abt the insults u hurl at our maula and our practices?

[Muslim First]

i am not saying that everything a khalifa did was right. they are humans and make mistakes including hz ali a.s. .

Br Regal

If it was against Qur'an or/and Sunnah Hz Ail RA had authority to change it. He would have definately changed it.

[Muslim First]

profastian
And what abt the insults u hurl at our maula and our practices?

I should and Inshah Allah will respectfully disagree with him and your foot kissing.

[Regal]

brother muslim first,

i am not against the allegedly new salat kalma and quran, what aqs accused. im just talking generally. as i said in my post, the fourth khalifa could have changed it if it was wrong.

[aqs]

aqs

second introduced new kind of Salat, altered or introduced new kalema in Azaan, third sanctioned the copy of Quran.

New kind of Salat?

You mean what we call Tarawih? Read the pages of this web site. Lot of discussion has taken place, find it, read it and if question then open up new thread in Islam section.

so you dont consider Tarawih as a innovation, defintely Prohet(saw) didnt pray any such salaat

New Kalema in Azan?

Do you call "AsSalato Khairul minum nawam" (Excuse my transliteration) a Kalema? Do you know what it means? It is not Kalema. It means "prayers are better than sleep". It is used only in First call of Fajar prayer, precisely to remind sleeping Umma that the prayers are better than sleep. It is not used in Iqama.

you have a problem with word Kalema then take it as a sentence, one and the same thing for me, why will you replace Hayyala khairil amal with a new one, old one meant Salaat is khair then all amal and you made it khair then only sleep. and if its only used in Azaan and not in Iqama then does it have any lesser value, as far as i know Azaan has more value then Iqama.

And what about Shia call of azan which Includes Ali in Azan? That is called Kalema.

I didnt wanted to get into this argument, but by going Regal's argument of khilafat and spiritual leadership differences then sure we can add the Kalema.

Third sanctioned the copy of Quran?

It was done by a committee with your demigod Hz Ali as advisor. He ruled for six years and had all powers to burn sectioned copies and produce real Qur'an Shias says he had it.

again the question arises as per the current discussion that third khalifa was in affect only a ruler in secular sense so in what capacity did he santified any copy of Quran.

Come out of cave you have been living in. "Enough of Basi Kadhi ko Ubal"

i have seen you boiling every time Moula Ali's name comes, and please let me repeat it for you and kindly take it in consideration before replying that i dont consider Ali as my God.

[aqs]

its a nice point, but then the question arises in what capacity first khalifa nominated second one, second introduced new kind of Salat, altered or introduced new kalema in Azaan, third sanctioned the copy of Quran.

i am not saying that everything a khalifa did was right. they are humans and make mistakes including hz ali a.s. .

muslim first is right, Hz Ali a.s was part of the advisors of the khalifaas and he gave bayt to the first second and third khalifas. when he became khalifa he could have changed the salat, kalma and wrong quran.
if you believe that hz ali. a.s was infallible due to him being an imam and everthing he did was right, then he gave an oath to "awal thaani and thalith".though what the 4 khalifas did in their reigns needs a new thread.

Regal,

Please point out the mistakes of Moula Ali(as), He never gave Oath to any one except Prophet(saw), Shia's and Sunnis differ on this point due to their beliefs, MF and you can very well believe that he gave Bayt but as a shia i dont consider that.

I never enter in Shia sunni debates because they are idiotic to say the least, you had started a thread which had something new in approach, that was the only reason i replied

[asif786]

I want to discuss this using common sense rather than what is spoon-fed to us by "scholars".

Lets assume for arguments sake, that the events at gadir -e- khum took place. the Holy Prophet pbuh exclaimed "man kunto maula fahaza ali un maula".




In final days of the Prophet pbuh 's life, he was very sick. and everybody knew that he was on his deathbed. in the months of his last illness, did nobody come and ask the him about succession? if it was so important that a public announcement be made in medina about whatever system was to succeed him, wouldnt the Prophet pbuh have done so? atleast someone would have thought about it right? But lets face it, the Prophet DIDNOT publically announce a head/king of whoever was going to succeed him as King of Arabia.

There was no need for any more annoucement as ghadir khum happened just few months before the prophet pbuh left the world and bayat was taken from 120,000 fresh Hajis , You can google calamity of thurdays and you will get the answer that what happened during prophets last days and why he was angry on few sahabas

At Khum, he announced Ali a.s will be a Maula to those to whom the Prophet pbuh was Maula. Maula literaly means protector. and it is generally used to mean "spiritual guide" when refering to a person. it has no meaning or intention to mean king/khalifa.

Maula Ali a.s was never considered spiritual guide , this is a total lie . He was only ask for advice when the khalifas had NO answer in regards to quran and other fiqh ilms . Maula was busy in farming for 25 years during the khilafat from Awwal to Saani . He dug 40 wells and 1000 trees of dates during this time. The famous hadith excepted by all schools of islam . I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its Gate was never taken seriously at that time nor now . Forget about spiritual leader he was not even considered rightfully guided khalifa till 250 AH almost after 210 years after his khilafat . Curses were showered on him after every juma prayers by muslims for almost 60 years. This is what you do to your spiritual leader??

[Regal]

Regal,

Please point out the mistakes of Moula Ali(as), He never gave Oath to any one except Prophet(saw), Shia's and Sunnis differ on this point due to their beliefs, MF and you can very well believe that he gave Bayt but as a shia i dont consider that.

I never enter in Shia sunni debates because they are idiotic to say the least, you had started a thread which had something new in approach, that was the only reason i replied

mate, thats why i said lets put our shia/sunni bias aside. common sense dictates that hz ali a.s gave bayt or else he would have been a rebel. you cant stay in a kingdom w/o accepting whoever is king and giving him fealty. being one of the prominent sahabas and public figures, it would have eben big news if hz ali a.s refused to give bayt.

pointing out the mistakes of sahabas needs another thread as it is a different level of argument and i dont wish to participate in it.



As far as azan is concerned, lets not fight about a few words. it does not diminish your faith if you say "salat is better than sleep". its only used for fajr. shias commited a bigger degree of deviation by including a persons name (hz ali a.s) in the azan, purely to differentiate themselves from sunnis. it doesnot do anything to help against accusations of person-worshipping. personally it makes no difference to me if Hz ali a.s name is mentioned in the azan, it all depends on the niyat of each individual and Allah knows best.

[aqs]

common sense dictates that hz ali a.s gave bayt

We call that common sense as Taqiyat.

[Regal]

@aqs, You can go on and believe it was taqiyat, but it is not a convincing argument. The doctrine of taqiyat itself is a cause of debate and there is no way to prove it in this matter. Allah knows best. What would you say about Hz Ali a.s sending Hassan and Hussain to protect the third caliph when it became apparant that an assassination attempt can be made on him. was this taqiyat too?

@profastian, atleast think before you believe anything. Hz Ali a.s was reverred in the muslim world. there are no recorded incidents before his khilafat in which someone has showered curses on hazrat ali. Even today sunnis respect him and his sons what are you talking about? i have been among sunnis most of my life and if you can believe me, the sunnis have great respect for hz ali a.s and his sons. i read that even non muslim warriors, decades after Hz Ali's death, used to write his name on their swords before going into battle. If the people cursed him in jummah prayers why did they chose him as khalifa? please dont show your ignorance. it is only aqa moulla who was caught cursing the three caliphs of islam and he had to appologise to the muslim world.

[asif786]

@@profastian, atleast think before you believe anything. Hz Ali a.s was reverred in the muslim world. there are no recorded incidents before his khilafat in which someone has showered curses on hazrat ali. Even today sunnis respect him and his sons what are you talking about? i have been among sunnis most of my life and if you can believe me, the sunnis have great respect for hz ali a.s and his sons. i read that even non muslim warriors, decades after Hz Ali's death, used to write his name on their swords before going into battle. If the people cursed him in jummah prayers why did they chose him as khalifa? please dont show your ignorance. it is only aqa moulla who was caught cursing the three caliphs of islam and he had to appologise to the muslim world.

Regal

I would suggest you read history first and then come back for discussion , This is a fact that mauwiya and Marwan ibn Hakam started this practice of cursing Ali a.s from all mimbar of syria in juma prayers .

[asif786]

@@profastian, atleast think before you believe anything. Hz Ali a.s was reverred in the muslim world. there are no recorded incidents before his khilafat in which someone has showered curses on hazrat ali. Even today sunnis respect him and his sons what are you talking about? i have been among sunnis most of my life and if you can believe me, the sunnis have great respect for hz ali a.s and his sons. i read that even non muslim warriors, decades after Hz Ali's death, used to write his name on their swords before going into battle. If the people cursed him in jummah prayers why did they chose him as khalifa? please dont show your ignorance. it is only aqa moulla who was caught cursing the three caliphs of islam and he had to appologise to the muslim world.

Regal

I would suggest you read history first and then come back for discussion , This is a fact that mauwiya and Marwan ibn Hakam started this practice of cursing Ali a.s from all mimbar of syria in juma prayers .

And this practice was stopped by Umar ibn Abdul Aziz , the bani ummaya leader