Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Bismillah Hir Rahman Nir Rahim,
I seek refuge with Allah the All knowing, All Merciful, And All Powerful From Devil the accursed,
Dear Muslims.....,
Greetings be to those who are the followers of Righteous Guidance,
This letter should have been addressed to the Bohras as my aim of writing the letter is to get convinced that Dr.Syedna Muhammad Burhannudin is truly the Dai al Multaq of our times.

Why I Question this way Because actually I myself am not very sure if he truly our Dai. I have posted several replies earlier regarding his holiness. But I am not Quite sure if he is actually holy to be frank. Muddai for this moment I take Back my word of he being the true leader May Allah forgive me for the sins I have Committed.
Now lets go on to the topic. Why I ask:
1. As most of you all must be noing that his holiness on dawat to anyones house "charges" money for his visit an amount not less than Rs.5 and a half lacs. If he truly wanted to visit he should not charge money from people. Why charge money if he is the servant of Allah Taala. Is he looting people in the name of religion or is this money going to our benefit I really wonder. Ok an small amount of money is understandable but not so much. I can imagine what must be the state of the poor when they are told to pay such Amounts.
2. I was speaking to one of my friends yesterday whoes friends daughters Misaak was taken. I pondered upon has misaak retained its orginal Holiness or has it just become a money making Gimic. My friend told me how he was actually told how much money to give the High priest. He was told to get Rs.150, Rs. 100 and Rs. 50.
3. Then I know this one person who is sufferring so much due to the his Holiness ans his family. The persons father must have said something ill about the kothar and so the person is to suffer so much under their hands.He is not allowed to enter a masjid and pray neither when his father died was not allowed to get burried.
4. His Holiness and his Family move about in opels, lancers, fords, maruttis, Fiats while I donnot know how many people are dying of hunger and disease in this world. The community members remain poor while his Holiness and his family purchase 5 to six houses each bring new cars frequently and travel around the world in the best of luxuries in the name of religion.
5. He is suppose to be the dai of the community he must teach people all about islam but rather what he does is just concentrates on the history of islam and does nothing to inform the people about the religion of islam its teachings and the Quranal hakkim. Even in Ramadhan istead of gloryfying the Allah by teaching people About the Quran and Teaching people about the prophets of islam his holiness will talk about the prophets family. I know that we must respect the prophets family but not at the cost of forgetting Allahs teachings.
6. Bohras are forbidden to read Pickthalls and Yusuf alis and other translations of the Quran. I wonder why?? Is the dai doing something not in accordance to the Quran Huh?? We all know that the Quran Sharif cannot be translated in any language but that does not mean that we are not suppose to do read it. Ok lets take a logical example if we are to explain the quran to an Amercian Christian who knows nothing about arabic then we would have to use english to teach it to him.
7. The Dai himself stays in a luxurious Mahal while the Biggest Mosque in Mumbai is situated at Bindi bazaar in mumbai where thgousnds of Bohras stay. Should not the dai live amongst his people. the only visit the dai makes to this area which is rather dirty is to make a big show of his appearance or to do ziarat of the late syedna or sometimes to pray in the mosque. He has never ever taken efforts to rebuild old buildings or to beautify the surrounding area. The prophet has never been recorded to have lived in large palacial house. Infact he himself use to take pains to build houses and mosques.
8. I guess in every Bohra house one shall spot a picture of the dai or his father. Why is this not idol worship keeping pictures of people with relation to religion is forbidden. Have you ever seen a picture of the prphet ever never???
I hope i get an answer soon from the Bohra community

I agree with the Dai in one respect. Do not bother reading translations of ther Quran. You should only recite it, preferably aloud, after learning Arabic sounds from a native Arabic teacher. Why? because it sounds, oh, so nice!

There is no need to explain the meaning of Quran to anybody else. If you must know its meaning, then it can be stated succinctly. It says simply; follow God or the one that God has favored. Now, God cannot be followed because he is nowhere to be seen. That leaves the one whom he has favored. That is me! And that is you, too!

But, if I were to convince you that you should follow only me and deprive you, in your ignorance, of your God-given right to follow yourself, then I know I can manipulate you and make you part with fruits of your effort, so I can live without effort.

In early days of human evolution, this was transparent. I could convince you by threatening your survival with my superior brawn. In time, this became religion and all sorts of devices have been created for you to follow everybody except you, yourself. Even those who are in positions of lesdership have convinced themselves that it is only their right to lead and do it fabulously. Dai is an expert; so were all religious leaders, past and present.

So, is he the true Dai? Of course, he is. Why do you need him?

Why do you need the Quran? Just get a good book on how to live good life. There are thousands. Most are better than Quran in that you will not need any translation and there will be no worthless "religious" baggage associated with it.

Bismillah Hir Rahman Nir Rahim,
I seek refuge with Allah the All Knowing All Merciful All Powerful, Most Gracious, Most Compassionate from Shaitan accursed,
Dear Porus,
I have stated this verse from the Quranal Hakkim in many posts before, and I shall state it not once but as many a time as i Come across people like you over and again.
There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

Why do you need the Quran?
Surah 38: Saad 86. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this (Qurán), nor am I a pretender.
87. "This is no less than a Reminder to (all) the Worlds.
88. "And ye shall certainly know the truth of it (all) after a while."

Surah 44: Smoke 1. Há Mím.
2. By the Book that makes things clear;
3. We sent it down during a blessed night: for We (ever) wish to warn (against Evil).
4. In that (night) is made distinct every affair of wisdom,
5. By command, from Us. For We (ever) send (revelations),
6. As Mercy from thy Lord: for He hears and knows (all things);
7. The Lord of the heavens and the earth and all between them, if ye (but) have an assured faith.
8. There is no god but He: It is He Who gives life and gives death, The Lord and Cherisher to you and your earliest ancestors.

Surah 31: Luqman(The Wise) 1. Alif. Lám. Mím.
2. These are Verses of the Wise Book,
3. A Guide and a Mercy to the Doers of Good,
4. Those who establish regular prayer, and give Zakat, and have sure faith in the Hereafter.
5. These are on (true) guidance from their Lord: and these are the ones who will prosper.

As for you Porus, May Allah Taala bestow noor on you and make you amongst the righteous. "Allah leadth astray whom he wills"."their hearts are sealed".

You compare the Quranal Hakkim to ordinary thousands of books. Surely in that is the work of Shaitan.Azu billahis sami el alim minas shaitan nir rajim.

I once spoke to a very intelligent man and this is what He said to me"IF YOU BELEIVE THAT A SUPREME CREATOR REALLY EXIST AND EVEN IF THAT CREATOR DID NOT EVER EXIST WHEN YOU DIE IT SHALL CAUSE NO HARM TO YOU BUT IF A CREATOR DID REALLY EXIST AND YOU DID NOT BELEIVE IN HIS EXISTENCE YOU WILL BE THE LOOSER WHEN YOU DIE.SEEK GUIDANCE AND YOU WILL RECEIVE IT.LOOK AT THE WORLD AROUND YOU THE UNIVERSE............" PONDER ON THESE WORDS A REFLECT FOR YOURSELF
I turn my face to God, the originator of the heavens and the earth, a monotheist Muslim and I am not among those who join partners with God. My prayers and my rites of worship and my life and my death belong to the Lord of the Worlds who has no partner and I have been commanded thus and I am among those who submit themselves to God on the faith of Abraham and the religion of Muhammad and the way of Ali and I am innocent before God of those who are unjust. I ask protection of God the All-hearing and All-knowing from the accursed devil
Quresh

I agree with the Dai in one respect. Do not bother reading translations of ther Quran. You should only recite it, preferably aloud, after learning Arabic sounds from a native Arabic teacher. Why? because it sounds, oh, so nice!

Porus agrees with the Dai and respects him as well, only because the Dai refrains you from studying and understanding the Quran but then Porus doesn’t need him anyways!

There is no need to explain the meaning of Quran to anybody else. If you must know its meaning, then it can be stated succinctly. It says simply; follow God or the one that God has favored. Now, God cannot be followed because he is nowhere to be seen. That leaves the one whom he has favored. That is me! And that is you, too!

Therefore, follow the Quran in order to follow GOD and you will know the me’s and you’s.

But, if I were to convince you that you should follow only me and deprive you, in your ignorance, of your God-given right to follow yourself, then I know I can manipulate you and make you part with fruits of your effort, so I can live without effort.

And Satan did the same thing with Adam (remember the apple tree). Satan and Adam, both are a fantastic creation of GOD, in that, one is doomed forever while the other is not. Thus, you have Satan and his kind, and Adam and his kind. The choice is yours.

In early days of human evolution, this was transparent.

Not so by GOD's Words (Quran).

I could convince you by threatening your survival with my superior brawn.

That’s the job of Satan, devils, jinns and their kind. And this is where Refuge in GOD kicks in.

In time, this became religion and all sorts of devices have been created for you to follow everybody except you, yourself.

That’s why you have wishes and dreams. And "brains" as well.

Even those who are in positions of lesdership have convinced themselves that it is only their right to lead and do it fabulously. Dai is an expert; so were all religious leaders, past and present.

Half-n-Half.

So, is he the true Dai? Of course, he is. Why do you need him?

O just because he looks and seems holy and you "think" he follows the Quran (GOD’s commands). Oh, you forgot, he is your god as well and he brings another just before he dies.

Why do you need the Quran? Just get a good book on how to live good life.

And that good book is the Quran itself that teaches you how to live. This Good Book (THE QURAN) is for the bad to become good and for the good to become better and for the better to become best.
Good, Better, Best,
Never let it rest;
Till your Good is Better,
And your Better Best.

There are thousands. Most are better than Quran in that you will not need any translation

But ofcourse, such as Rashad Khalifa’s, Yousuf Ali’s, Samir’s, Shakir’s, Pickthal’s, Maududi’s, Ahmed Ali’s, etc. One doesn’t need any translation to read them for they are available in all languages. The best among them is that of Rashad’s because of its ease of comprehension and the flow of language, without the need to devour on his footnotes, subheadings and/or parenthesized opinions.

and there will be no worthless "religious" baggage associated with it.

Absolutely, certainly.

Quran has been considered the greatest book ever; millions have read it; more millions swear they live by it; yet here you are. At the start of twenty first century nearly 1500 years after Quran was revealed.

Muslims are despised the world over. Even Muslims despise Muslims. Muslims suffer at the hands of Muslim tyrants. Their ulemas have erections when they lust after bloods of Muslims because they self-righteously believe all Muslims except themselves have wavered. They are the embodiment of the teachings of the Quran.

The Dai is speaking Quran, Aga Khan is speaking Quran and there is Danish and Quresh, all speaking Qurans. The latter two have had the fortune to have Quran revealed to them personally, at least that is what appears to be the case.

I get more out of King Lear than the contradictory, self-praising Quran purportedly written by someone whom no one has seen and which requires tons of exegesis to explain even the simplest verse. Like the nonsense "There is no god except Allah". Empty slogan, unprovable and totally meaningless.

And of course there is Shaitan. No one has seen him either but he is there in conversations and slogans! More a product of fertile imagination than truth, just like God.

Brother Porus: I agree with you totally & Joined the Porus Club.

Dear Porus,
funny turn of events...I think I even had this discussion with you before. Your arguments are liken to the scientist and reverends of King Lear's time. Didn't they believe the world was flat...because they couldn't SEE that it was round. For that matter...I never saw any people before the seventies...why should I believe they existed. Why should I believe you Br. Porus even exist...I've never seen you either. Maybe you're just some computer program that chimes in every once and a while.

Dear Danish...still waiting for your answer on how to perform the requirements of Allah via the Quran ONLY.

Brother Mohd, Welcome to the club.

Dear Qiyam,

Truth to tell, earth is really flat. You don't believe me? Search the net for "The Flat Earth Society". I have never experienced the earth as a sphere and nobody else has. You see, the theory that earth is spherical was proposed to explain some observed events just like the theory of evolution was proposed to explain some other observations. Flat Earthers have all the explanations for these ebserved events when you consider that earth is flat. On one web site there is an animation too! Look out for it.

True! Porus does not exist. He/She/It is a figment of web's imagination, a self-mutaing thought-form that wreaks havoc in cyber-space. It attacked me once when I was listening to a Hindi song at hindisong.net which went something like this:

Sikandar ne ki thi Porus se ladaai,
to mein kya karoon?

It was a toss up betwen Sikandar and Porus. And since Amitabh Bachan had already played Sikander, I thought I will call the thought-form Porus, with little p. He was clobbered by Sikander, after all, wasn't he?

Getting back to Quran, isn't that also a continuously mutating thought-form in the brains of those whom silly humans consider having been especially blessed by its author? Don't believe me? God, Rashad, Dai, Aga Khan, Makka's Grand Sheikh, Al Azhar's grand mufti, Danish, Qiyam, Quresh, Anajmi, porus; need I go on?

Porus,

Quran has been considered the greatest book ever; millions have read it; more millions swear they live by it; yet here you are. At the start of twenty first century nearly 1500 years after Quran was revealed.

Such is the spirit of the Quran. The day the evolution started on Earth by a Big Bang, the day the revelations started. The evolutionary encapsulating story of Adam and Satan began. And this is not just the Muslims who speak but also includes you, your kind and the rest of the world. It all depends on whose side they are, Adam’s or Satan’s. If they are on Adam’s side, then they are believers of GOD. And if they are on Satan’s side, then they become disbelievers of GOD. The rest is history. Such is the test of GOD until HIS final decision will take place, called the Judgement Day.

Muslims are despised the world over. Even Muslims despise Muslims. Muslims suffer at the hands of Muslim tyrants. Their ulemas have erections when they lust after bloods of Muslims because they self-righteously believe all Muslims except themselves have wavered. They are the embodiment of the teachings of the Quran.

I fully accredit your views here, but this happens throughout the world, even in other creatures besides human and more so with your kind. Its only when people who have utter disbelief and disregard of their creator, their own creation, the creation of our universe with everything within it and outside of it, and most importantly, the hereafter. They simply have "no where" to go but hither and thither.

The Dai is speaking Quran, Aga Khan is speaking Quran and there is Danish and Quresh, all speaking Qurans. The latter two have had the fortune to have Quran revealed to them personally, at least that is what appears to be the case.

Absolutely, a revelation revealed to all, including yourself. Only the sincere can grasp it and those who wish to learn, the "good way". A person can only do the best he can as long as he knows who his "Creator" is, the ONE and ONLY, GOD ALMIGHTY.

I get more out of King Lear than the contradictory, self-praising Quran purportedly written by someone whom no one has seen

Have you seen your own great great grandfather four generations ago and what do you know about him, if at all. I have no idea who King Lear is either. The "Words of GOD" were revealed to "someone" and then that "someone" wrote it down in a "Book" form. The "Book" and that "someone" the world knows about, including yourself. That "someone" was prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and that "Book" is the Quran (GOD’s Words). Muhammad died but the Quran is still Alive. Do I even know you or your father or your grandfather? Just too bad. No other book exists today like the Quran since its inception 1400 years ago, not even the Injeel (Gospel) nor the Torah and forget about the fallacious Hindu books for they are unheard of and unpopular. There are more people in the entire world today, including the Jews, Christians, Hindus, Atheists and the rest of the infidels, who are reading, studying and understanding it just for the sake of "anything" and everytime they read; and one add up to become a Muslim. Amazingly, the Quran continues to dominate the World, for they are GOD’s Final Words for those who wish to take heed as they near their final stage and Alas! bring them back to WHOM they belong. GOD, there is no other god but GOD. Be HE Glorified.

which requires tons of exegesis to explain even the simplest verse.

[31:27] If all the trees on earth were made into pens, and the ocean supplied the ink, augmented by seven more oceans, the words of GOD would not run out. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
Such is the vastness of GOD’s Words compiled in "one tiny book" called Quran, which equals non other.

Like the nonsense "There is no god except Allah". Empty slogan, unprovable and totally meaningless. And of course there is Shaitan. No one has seen him either but he is there in conversations and slogans! More a product of fertile imagination than truth, just like God.

And ofcourse there is Shaitan, an invisible traitor and a ‘controlling factor’ to dislodge GOD’s spirits.

Finally, as I understand, Quran is not the only way to believe in GOD, it surely is the "best way", for it is a guidance and a path towards righteousness.

Salaams Qiyam:

Please see ISLAM TODAY on the main message board of this forum and check the last topic under Wudu, Salaat and Supplications. Any questions, lets debate, understand and conclude amicably, if you so will.

Please also note that I do not support anyones religious views one hundred percent unless I verify them for myself. This powerful notion comes only from the Quran:
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

Hope this will help.
PEACE.

how did you verify that rashad went to heaven if you verify everything as the quran says?

"Getting back to Quran, isn't that also a continuously mutating thought-form in the brains of those whom silly humans consider having been especially blessed by its author? Don't believe me? God, Rashad, Dai, Aga Khan, Makka's Grand Sheikh, Al Azhar's grand mufti, Danish, Qiyam, Quresh, Anajmi, porus; need I go on? "

Why don't you save yourself the misery of going through this board day in and day out and get a good book to read. You won't have to worry about silly humans and the author of the book you read probably won't give a damn about you.

It has been mentioned to you innumerable times that people who believe, do it because of faith and not because of proof. It is like the fundamental principle of religion which you fail to understand. Why even bother talking about it!

Anajmi,

I am trying to mello down with you but you seem to be picking up on my hair follicles.

Prove it to me that I ever told you or anyone on this or any other forum on the entire Internet, to believe in Rashad's dreams or anyone else's dreams for that matter. Besides, what has Rashad's dreams got to do with his translation of the Quran. I have dreams perhaps every night, but that doesn't deter me from understanding GOD's Words, regardless of whose translation it is. Besides Rashad's, there are many other well known translations for comparison, such as that of Dr. Shafi, Yusuf Ali (famous), Maududi (famous), Pickthal (famous), Shakir, Samir (famous), Zohurul Hoque, Ahmed Ali, M&S Ahmed, etc. Also, please check www.quran.org for four well known translations side by side. I simply find Rashad's translation to be better than others and that has nothing to do with his claims, footnotes, appendices, etc. I hope you understand.

The only dream that one can extract out of the Quranic verses is, I believe, of Abraham. Nobody can believe in anybody's dreams unless they become facts. Who do you suppose came into Abraham's dream for him to kill his own son which he never did?

Please take note:

The only dream that one can extract out of the Quranic verses is, I believe, of Abraham.

My appologies for quoting the above as the "only dream" as surely there are many other dreams that Quran mentions about.

Originally posted by anajmi:
[QBIt has been mentioned to you innumerable times that people who believe, do it because of faith and not because of proof. It is like the fundamental principle of religion which you fail to understand. Why even bother talking about it![/QB]

Bohras believe in Sayedna as the only true exponent of the Quran, in fact, we believe him the living speaking Quran. It is a matter of faith for us. Proofs are not needed but if progresives insist, then, by golly, we have them by the train-loads. We have the writings of Imams, Sayednas etc. They are the truth. It is our faith. We only question the faith, or the lack of faith, of the progressives.

Progressives believe Sayedna is encouraging corruption and revisionism in the "true" faith of the Bohras. For Progressives, it is a matter of faith that they alone know what the true faith of the Bohras is. They don't need any proof either. But, if Bohras insist, they have the writings of Engineer and other notable Progressives.

Multiply the scenario with countless cults, religions, philosophies etc. Then what you get is the people divided by faith.

I have worked with people of many religious and non-religious persuasions. We like one another, play, eat, work and study to-gether. We are friends and care for one another. No one mentions anything about where they got their ideas about behaving so nicely. They certainly do not mention any religion or scripture. I certainly never think my good behavior has anything to do with Quran.

Now, when I die, Allah will tell me. Did I ask you to be friends with them? I wanted you to pray, beat your chest up, and bow to the Dai. You did not do all that and therefore it is hell for you. That is Allah.

> I certainly never think my good behavior has anything to do with Quran.

Funny that. The only reason I believe in morality at all is because I believe in God. After all, "if God is dead, then everything is permitted." It's not really the notions of Heaven and Hell that motivate me, I think, but really just the notion that if there is a God, than something is True.

Of course, the grand irony is that we will never on this earth be able to establish what is in fact the Truth, but belief in the Absolute also allows me to believe that truth, justice, and morality are ideas worth searching for because they do exist.

I suppose what I fear is people who think they've found them.

salaam

Originally posted by Khairan:
"if God is dead, then everything is permitted."

Not really. You will become bound by the rules of the society you live in. Better to work the rules out by agreement without resorting to this religion or that.

If you are at all sensible, you are unlikely to rape next man's wife because, without religion, you can determine that that course of action is not very wise.

In religious discussions, God is immaterial. It is men we have to deal with. Scriptures are not God's words. They are man's fantasies about what God says. That is why exegesis and explanations are needed.

I challenge you to pick up a copy of the Arabic Quran and, without reference to anything else, see if it makes any sense at all these days. I am not talking about translations, which are the basis of debate on this board. But the Arabic Quran. Learn Arabic if you have to.

Apart from a few guidelines about laws which made sense among the 6th century bedouins, all Quran says is this.

I am all-powerful God. I did this and I did that. Man does not know this and therfore he is a loser. Those who know this and do this and that, they will be in heaven. For others it is hell-fire.

What is this and that? Today it is beating your chest, bowing to Dai and giving him your money to build tombs of departed notables. It is to dress in ways suggested by a prince or princess (rida came from a princess) and keep baraat from those you know you can manipulate. Not much point in baraating non-believers.

Bismillah Hir Rahman Nir Rahim,
I seek refuge with Allah the All knowing, All powerful, All Merciful, Most compassionate from the devil accursed,
Dear Porus,
If you are at all sensible, you are unlikely to rape next man's wife because, without religion, you can determine that that course of action is not very wise
The Fact that you speak this way shows your base nature. Only people like you can think of raping the next door neighbours wife. Anyways your speaking this way shows that you have not heard about The People Of Lut,
141. The people of Lut belied the Messengers.
142. When their compatriot Lut said, 'do you not fear?'
143. Undoubtedly, I am a trusted Messenger of Allah for you.
144. Therefore fear Allah and obey me.
145. I ask you no wage for it, my wage is only upon Him Who is the Lord of the worlds.
146. Will you be left secure amid the good things of here?
147. In gardens and springs.
148. And cornfields and palm trees whose blossoms are soft tender.
149. And hew out houses in the mountains skillfully.
150. Therefore fear Allah and obey me.
151. And follow not the bidding of those who exceed the limits.
152. Who spread disorder in the earth and reform not.
153. They said, 'you have indeed been be-witched'.
154. You are indeed a man like us, therefore bring any sign, if you are truthful.
155. He said, this is a she camel, a day of drinking is for her and a fixed day of drinking is for you.
156. And touch her not with evil, lest the torment of a great day will overtake you.
157. But they hamstrung her, then they remained repenting in the morning.
158. Therefore, the torment overtook them.
159. And undoubtedly, your Lord He is the Mighty, the Merciful.
160. The people of Lut belied the Messengers.
161. When their compatriot Lut said to them, 'do you not fear'.
162. Undoubtedly, I am a trusted Messenger of Allah for you.
163. Therefore fear Allah and obey me.
164. I ask you no wage for it, my wage is only upon Him Who is the Lord of the worlds.
165. Do you commit unnatural offence with males from among the creatures.
166. And leave your wives whom your Lord has created for you? Nay, but you are a people exceeding the limit.
167. They said, 'O Lut',if you desist not, then you shall necessarily be expelled out.
168. He said, 'I am disgusted of your doings.
169. O my Lord! save me and my family from their doings.
170. Therefore, We delivered him and all his family member.
171. But an old woman who stayed behind.
172. Then We destroyed the others.
173. And We rained upon them a rain, therefore what an evil rain it was for those who were warned.
174. Undoubtedly, in it necessarily, there is a sign. But most of them were not Muslims.
175. And undoubtedly, your Lord—He is the Mighty, the Merciful

In religious discussions, God is immaterial. It is men we have to deal with. Scriptures are not God's words. They are man's fantasies about what God says. That is why exegesis and explanations are needed.
Do you find controversy in the Quran??? Think about the universe and how it came into existence. Each and every thing has a creator nothing can create itself. Why do you think the prophet would leave the powerful Quresh was he sure that by giving his own fantasies as you say he become stronger than the Quresh. This is what the prophet Muhammad had told the quresh"whether hey put the sun in my right hand or the moon in my left iwill not denounce my message which is from God" In times where The prophet was thrown out of Mecca he yet did not denounce his message, What about Musa, he was already king he didnot need anything else, what about isa, He was ready to give up his life, but due to the mercy of Allah he was saved and taken into the heavens.
I challenge you to pick up a copy of the Arabic Quran and, without reference to anything else, see if it makes any sense at all these days. I am not talking about translations, which are the basis of debate on this board. But the Arabic Quran. Learn Arabic if you have to.
Miracles of the Glorious Quran Sharif
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/

Quresh,

I am glad you mentioned the site "miracles of the Quran" by Harun Yahya. Apparently, he is one of my favourites and have known him for sometime now. I must confess that his works are extraordinary and praiseworthy. I recommend others to explore his entire website, [url=http://www.harunyahya.com,]www.harunyahya.com,[/url] as he unveils the "secrets" of the Quran and its spiritual aspects through logical scientific and natural means. Purchase his comprehensive video tapes, they are shockingly awesome. Notice that he is a monothiest and a true believer of GOD, Masha-Allah, Alhamdu-Lillah.

Quresh,

I am glad you mentioned the site "miracles of the Quran" by Harun Yahya. Apparently, he is one of my favourites and have known him for sometime now. I must confess that his works are extraordinary and praiseworthy. I recommend others to explore his entire website, www.harunyahya.com as he unveils the "secrets" of the Quran and its spiritual aspects through logical scientific and natural means. Purchase his comprehensive video tapes, they are shockingly awesome. Notice that he is a monothiest and a true believer of GOD, Masha-Allah, Alhamdu-Lillah.

porus,

Religion came at times when there was complete lawlessness in the society. And this is not mentioned in the quran but in the history books.

Moses, Jesus, the prophet Muhammed are all evidence.

You choose not to see it, I do.

Raping your neighbours wife is something that society can prevent you from doing, yes, but what told society that it is a bad thing to do? Religion did. Every wife was for everyone before religion. This is again history.

Let's say society can prevent the rape of the neighbours wife, what society is going to prevent the rape of the middle east by the Americans?

danish,

"I am trying to mello down with you but you seem to be picking up on my hair follicles."

Please don't, I am itching to have a go at you myself, remember you were the one who asked me to cool down.

I will simplfy my question to you. Do you believe that rashad went to heaven only in his dream? Cause I go to heaven even when I am awake (of course not literally, but I'm sure you knew that)

Do you believe that his controversial verses were also his dream?

Do you believe that his dreams were special?

He did not just translate the quran like the others did, he changed it. And that is why I will not read his translation. He changed the quran to make money. And you know what Allah says about people like those right?

Did you verify on what basis he changed the quran? How?

porus,

"I am all-powerful God. I did this and I did that. Man does not know this and therfore he is a loser. Those who know this and do this and that, they will be in heaven. For others it is hell-fire."

What God wants you to do is not this and that but it is clearly mentioned what this is and what that is too. People who realise it are called progressives on this board.

And if the reason you give to not believe in god is what he said he is going to do with you, it is not going to prevent him from doing it, is it?. And he is God right, he has the right to do what he pleases. If he wants to send you to hell just cause you did not pee sitting down, then who are we to say no. Will he even care? So we better sit and pee.

"What is this and that? Today it is beating your chest, bowing to Dai and giving him your money to build tombs of departed notables. It is to dress in ways suggested by a prince or princess (rida came from a princess) and keep baraat from those you know you can manipulate. Not much point in baraating non-believers. "

All this that you mention is not the teaching of the quran or the prophet. It is an innovation and there are more people today who oppose this than those who follow it. So let's not use that as an excuse.

I would also like to mention that God says in the quran that he is the most merciful and the prophet said that if you die in a state of Iman, even if that Iman is as little as to the likeness of an atom, ultimately you will go to heaven.

And it is my belief that every human on earth will get an opportunity to become a muslim so when you talk about these people who have done nothing but good things in life and were not muslims, probably missed their opportunity. How they will be dealt with, I don't know, what I do know is that I shouldn't let this opportunity go.

> Not really. You will become bound by the rules of the society you live in. Better to work the rules out by agreement without resorting to this religion or that.

Of course you're right, we are all bound by the rules of our society, and many of us (but not all) face consequences if we violate those rules. However, without God, morality ceases to exist. Any rules we make are by necessity purely arbitrary. Today, it isn't acceptable for Europeans to commit genocide against non-whites. Not too long ago, Native Americans and Tasmanians were thought subhuman and not deserving of basic moral consideration.
My point is only that if nothing is in fact "True", then the only reason you do anything is because you feel like it (not strictly a true statement, I realize, but enough for now). Though I do know people (generally atheists) who find that kind of agency freeing, I myself am only disturbed by it.

Ah, no more of my tired midnight ramblings for the moment - fare well.

Anajmi,

Please don't, I am itching to have a go at you myself,

Well, I can't help you with your problem? Either you need a doctor or I may suggest you use a talcum powder or a prickly heat one? You have a choice.

I will simplfy my question to you. Do you believe that rashad went to heaven only in his dream?

And I will simplify my answer for you. Don't know.

Cause I go to heaven even when I am awake (of course not literally, but I'm sure you knew that)

Really. Funny how people know my secrets.

Do you believe that his controversial verses were also his dream?

His verses were his translations, not dreams?

Do you believe that his dreams were special?

I wouldn't know that. They are his special dreams, not mine?

He did not just translate the quran like the others did, he changed it.

Unique, wasn't he.

And that is why I will not read his translation.

OK.

He changed the quran to make money.

Were you in for some too?

And you know what Allah says about people like those right?

Right.

Did you verify on what basis he changed the quran? How?

I didn't need to verify anything. I read his translation only in English and not the original Quran in Arabic. Now does that bother you, mister.

Originally posted by Danish:
Quresh,

... you mentioned the site "miracles of the Quran" by Harun Yahya. ..... explore his entire website, www.harunyahya.com as he unveils the "secrets" of the Quran and its spiritual aspects through logical scientific and natural means.

The site has good graphics and noteworthy for that. "Miracles of the Quran" are the similarities between modern discoveries of science and "interpretation" of a number of ayats. It is claimed that since Quran already revealed what science is just beginning to discover, then only God could have written it.

There are number of issues with this argument.

1. Modern discoveries of science are never facts detemined for all time. Discoveries keep happening and new ones may overturn the "truth" of earlier discoveries. [Perhaps a Muslim should indicate how Quran reveals a yet to be discovered "fact" of science.]

2. Just because a person B today re-discovers a "fact" previously discovered by person "A", it does not lead me to the conclusion that B is infinitely more intelligent than A and therefore is God.

3. To say that there is order in universe and therefore it indicates an intelligebt designer, presupposes that we know what order is. Our idea of order is simply the perceived regularity in universe. So, to say that there is order in universe, is simply tautologous. You are saying that universe is like universe.

4. How can anyone jump from concluding that there is a designer from claiming that he is actually divine? This is a quantum jump with no explanantion.

One video is simply an elaborate "Argument from Design", a very old idea refuted many times. Refer to http://skepdic.com/design.html.

The site is in violation of the rule of Occam's Razor. You can explain the complexity of Universe without bringing God into it.

My conclusion. Site is good for graphics and is primarily aimed at western audiences as all ideas "challenged" are from western scientists and philosophers. Muslims don't feature much on the site.

Good graphics! Shame it is not strong on philosophy.

Porus,

Quran already revealed what science is just beginning to discover

Thus it refutes all your insipid claims. Make your remarks and statements simpler rather than going at it at great lengths wishy washy.

Danish,

Please quote me in full.

I wrote what is here in quotes.

"It is claimed that since Quran already revealed what science is just beginning to discover, then only God could have written it."

Since you are such a great scholar of Quran, please identify an ayat which states a 'yet undiscovered fact' by scientists. Something physical or biological will be nice.