Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Hello Everybody,
I request Progs to answer this Five simple questions,
Please give your individual opinian about it,


1) Do you believe Dail Mutlaq is Infallible Masum? Y/N


2)Do you believe to do Sajada ie Taqbilul Ard Takriman va Taziman (Not as same as to Allah )to Dail Mutlaq?Y/N


3)Do yo believe 52 dai as Dail Mutalq?Y/N
If Yes Do you recite his name in Fajr Namaz Doa?Y/N


4)Do you believe Practices or Farmans of Dail Mutlaq are according to Islamic Laws?Y/N


5)Do you believe 52nd Dail Mutlaq is Corrupt or his Family is Corrupt?


Please Dont derail the topic,And Answer the Questions

Read this:
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=4891

The End

Bro Murtaza

you must be aware of how the media (news channel) operate!!

although they claim to be democratic and free BUT they are all SCRIPTED!! You can doo an online research on this and considering the events you will find out!

same way these pigs HEAD have scripted an outline of wat to ans! soo they will not ans any of ur ques rather thn posting links

and if dey r guilty still wont accept coz if dey doo thn automatically LANAAT on their HEADs

Excepts from one of the article posted on the site
It is often maintained by the Bohra priesthood and their orthodox followers that the reformists have gone astray and in some extreme cases some orthodox fanatics even maintain that the reformists have abandoned their religion. Is it really so?

Certainly not, if one goes by what the reformists themselves believe. But what is worse is that on the other extreme some reformists themselves have certain doubts about their beliefs and practices and often describe the orthodox Bohras as constituting the 'mainstream'.

This position is also erroneous. No section of the community, much less the orthodox, can privilege the mainstream for themselves. In my opinion the reformist stream of the Dawoodi Bohra community is also the mainstream. We should not give that privilege to the orthodox only. What is the logic behind describing the Orthodox Bohras as mainstream? Is it their beliefs and practices? Or, is it their number? If it is beliefs and practices, as I would show shortly, there is hardly any difference between the two. Both are followers of the Fatimi Da'wah, both accept the Shi'ah-Must'alian-Tyebi line of the Fatimi D'awah and both accept the chain of Da'is.

If you believe in Chain of Dais until current Dai (52nd) . Then why do you recite name uptill 46th Dai Only. Give logical explanation..




Is it then numbers? Not quite so. If this logic of numbers is accepted, then only the Shi'a Ithna 'Asharis among all Shi'a sects would be accepted as mainstream Shi'a and among all the Muslims the world over, only Sunni Muslims will constitute the mainstream of Islam. In fact any body of believers by themselves constitute a mainstream. Each sect and sub-sect of Islam constitutes mainstream in its own right. Any community is constituted around a set of beliefs and practices and that body of followers of those beliefs and practices becomes a mainstream in its own way. So this argument of mainstream is quite misleading, to say the least.

Another important question is in what way the orthodox and reformists differ from each other? Do they differ in fundamentals of faith or in subsidiary matters? Are their differences based on usul (principles) or in furu'at (i.e. secondary matters). As pointed out earlier there is no question of differing in fundamentals or in matters of usul. All of us - orthodox or reformists subscribe to same fundamentals of faith and even accept the office of Da'itoo. There is much misunderstanding on this question among our orthodox friends. They think that we reject the office of Da'i. It is far from true.

The reformists give as much importance to the office of a Da'i as the orthodox Bohras. The office of a Da'i is an integral part of Fatimi Da'wah. The orthodox Bohras should not misunderstand the reformists on this issue. There is lot of misinformation campaign against the reformists by the vested interests. We also do not differ from each other even on the question of nass. The doctrine of nass has been quite fundamental to all the Shi'a sects. It is as fundamental to the reformists as to the orthodox Bohras.

Do you really believe there was controversial decision by 47th Dai on the matter of Nass..
Note : I can produce proof of your doubts on this from your site itself




Mr Insaf.. Give answer to the specifc questions asked

IT IS THE BIGGEST "UNHOLY FRAUD" ON PROGRESSIVES PART TO AGREE ON MOUTH THAT YOU RECOGNIZE 52nd DAI AND IN ACTION NOT DOING SO.. ie in FAJR DUA ONLY RECITING NAME UPTILL 46th DAI..

true bohra,

is your answer to the fraud conducted in udaipur land documents by the kothari mafia, this fictitious story of allegiance to 52nd dai crap?

you remind me of a hungry, weak, emaciated, diseased and frustrated lion pouncing on an illusory, tiny mouse for want of anything else to eat. tch tch, this 52nd dai issue has really gone to your delirious brain... at this rate you will have to be put into a straitjacket and confined to an institution for the criminally insane.

btw, this is the official site of the PDB, stating their official position on all matters of deen and reform. anything else done or said by individuals is at their own responsibility and risk and does not constitute any endorsement of them by the official reformists. you too come to this reformist site without hindrance to spread your malicious kothari propaganda, does that make you a reformist?

Zulfikar,
Your Official Reformist are playing cat & mouse game. Come out clean on the accusation & answer
TILL WHAT DAI YOU RECITE NAME IN FAJR DUA AND WHY??...
DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE THERE WAS CONTORVERSY ON NASS ISSUE AFTER 46th DAI...
DO YOU BELIEVE 52nd DAI IS DAI-MUTLAQ OR DAI NAZIM..... (YOUR OFFICIAL POSITION)


THE OFFICIAL POSITION IS NOW A AWKWARD POSITION FOR THE REFORMIST ... EVEN CANNOT BE FOUND IN OFFICIAL KAMASUTRA...

Brother Hamsafar,

Bravo and thank you for shortening the discussion.

Hussain_KSA wrote:Brother Hamsafar,

Bravo and thank you for shortening the discussion.

My Foot Bravo ,This is Cowardness,
Lo !! on Progressives they cannot give answer of my Simple question,

TB,

as a fanatic abde, please state the official position here of the kothar. why were the dais after 46th referring to themselves as DAI E NAZIMS?

this is now a very awkward position for all abdes and their slave masters.

murtaza2152 wrote:
My Foot Bravo ,This is Cowardness,
Lo !! on Progressives they cannot give answer of my Simple question,

my foot murtu,

this is extreme "cowardness" (SIC)

LO, abdes and their slave masters cannot answer a simple question? why were the dai's until 50th calling themselves dai e nazim's??

@ Zulfi,
Can you give me a single proof where it is written,
Dai Nazim Syedna Abdulqadir Najmuddin or
Dai Nazim Syedna Abdulhusain Husamuddin
salavat on all Dai....

Al Zulfiqar wrote:TB,

as a fanatic abde, please state the official position here of the kothar. why were the dais after 46th referring to themselves as DAI E NAZIMS?

this is now a very awkward position for all abdes and their slave masters.

Go back to your loon bin retard. Not sure why they let you out in the first place...

Hussain_KSA wrote:Brother Hamsafar,

Bravo and thank you for shortening the discussion.

@Husain,
You are a Respectful Member on this forum,
I would like to know from you Do YOU believe 52nd Dai as Mutlaq or Nazim,
Give resons for your answer.....

In the last few days, a few of the abdes have asked a very simple question in different threads. Why do you recite the names of the DAI upto only the 46th DAI, if you believe the 52nd DAI to be Dawoodi Mutlaq (according to the official position). The question is very valid and certainly needs an explanation. I think it is time to revise the official position of the movement now or cough up some answers to this question.
P.S. Sunnis and atheists please butt out of this thread. PDS and DB only please.

I believe him as Dai Mutlaq. I have been to Surat to pass the exam conducted by Jamia and we used to recite his name during fajr prayer. I have left the mainstream Jamat before 28 years. It was local jamat fued which later became prestige issue of kothar and our group ( who left mainstream).

Husain -I believe him as Dai Mutlaq. I have been to Surat to pass the exam conducted by Jamia,

2152-It must be Mustafedeen Exam,
When did you go, before 28 years ago??


husain quoted, and we used to recite his name during fajr prayer.

2152-- i didnt understand it,its obvious Dai s name is recited in all Masjids, I ask ,,Do You recite when Today you pray Fajar Namaz,


husain quoted-- I have left the mainstream Jamat before 28 years. It was local jamat fued which later became prestige issue of kothar and our group ( who left mainstream)


2152--- I can understand it,but bro Whose Nuksaan is there in this case,!!

Bohras have a murky history. Questions surround the succession not only of the Dais but of Imams too.

Whether the current Dai is Mutlaq or Caretaker is not important to reform issues. In either case, Mutlaq or Nazim, the issues will remain. The issues are about corruption in accountability in regard to both finances and faith.

Reform issues are directed to whoever holds the powerful position at the head of the community. Calling him Imam, Dai, or Nazim is inconsequential. It is not a matter of religious orthodoxy. Faith of the Shia had been more or less fully established by the time of Imam Jafar al-Sadiq. Fatimid developments were concerned with the survival of faith but Islam as revealed by Prophet is still the fundamental basis for the faith of Bohras.

Four brothers born out of the same mother and brought by the same parents do differ in their likes and dislike and thinking. My relatives are all orthodox, some are absolute fanatic followers, some are liberal, some are reformist behind the curtain and admire my courage and some are non-practicing Bohras and few of them are atheists. But they all pretend to be loyalists and willingly or unwillingly keep on participate in the community’s functions.
The same is situation on both sides of divide in the Bohra community.
As for the dispute of Nass on 46th Dai, I have already explained that till 50th Dai this controversy had surfaced. Only when 51st Dai started a policy of persecution and exploitation in the name of religion in order to amass wealth and build his financial empire, the Bohras who had seen earlier Dais pious and God-fearing started driving their own conclusions. Some thought 51st Dai is suddenly changing system of Dawat because he is not properly appointed Dai – he is not Dail-Mutlaq but Nazim Dai. It was during 51st Dai’s time that Dawoodi Bohras got divided in different sects and NOT on the question of succession.

This had happened in the Islam earlier too. During holy Prophet’s time every one was a pure and simple Muslim. They remain Muslims even till the tragedy of Karbala. But because of the policies of persecutions and exploitation during Umayyads and Abbasids period gave rise to differences among Muslims and they got divided in to Shia, Sunni and other sects.

Even among the present day Dawoodi Bohras they are divided because of last to Dais’ policy of persecutions and exploitation. Let Syedna Saheb stop the practice of barbaric and un-Islamic “Baraat” and differences will vanish.

Br Murtaza,
next time, try it this way.. it will be easy for us, to understand..

I believe him as Dai Mutlaq. I have been to Surat to pass the exam conducted by Jamia (It must be Mustafedeen Exam, When did you go, before 28 years ago??)and we used to recite his name during fajr prayer (i didnt understand it,its obvious Dai s name is recited in all Masjids, I ask ,,Do You recite when Today you pray Fajar Namaz,). I have left the mainstream Jamat before 28 years. It was local jamat fued which later became prestige issue of kothar and our group ( who left mainstream)(I can understand it,but bro Whose Nuksaan is there in this case,!!.)

Dawoodi Bohras Core Belief.
All the Dais upto 52nd Dai are Dai-Al-Mutlak, We Dawoodi Bohras have faith & believe so.....

No Question of DAi NAzim...

Now Do Official PDB's Agree with this

if yes, then why do you recite names only untill 46th ....
if No.... Then please agree you are new Firqa.. from 46th Dai.. Like Alavis, Sulemanis but definably not Dawoodis...

Simpe Questiona but No Answers from PDB... The PDB Master are in hiding........

Mr Insaf Quoted
As for the dispute of Nass on
46th Dai, I have already
explained that till 50th Dai this controversy had surfaced.
Only when 51st Dai started a
policy of persecution and
exploitation in the name of
religion in order to amass
wealth and build his financial empire, the Bohras who had
seen earlier Dais pious and
God-fearing started driving
their own conclusions. Some
thought 51st Dai is suddenly
changing system of Dawat because he is not properly
appointed Dai – he is not Dail- Mutlaq but Nazim Dai. It was
during 51st Dai ’s time that Dawoodi Bohras got divided
in different sects and NOT on
the question of succession.




@Mr Insaf,
why are you circling the topic,Do you believe 52 dai as Dail Mutlaq if yes WHY RECITE NAMES UPTO 46 DAI"
WHY??

@Mr Insaf
And for Dai Nazim issue,
Can you present a Single proof ,where 47 48 49 50 Dai, wrote Dai Nazim before their name,
I BET YOU CANNOT....

@Porus
Whats the difference between Dail Mutlaq and Dai Nazim??
According to Progs He is Dai Nazim ,So he can make Mistakes or Faults ,People followers, have to Find their own way bcause it is Dorul Fatrah, Acordin to Ahmed Ali,


But According to Mumineens DB He is Dail Mutlaq , Infallible MASUM ,A representative of God on Earth in Imams Satr,,We believe in "Je Kare ya Kahe Haq Che Sarasar"



According to Ahmed Ali Raj DailMutlaq is very high authority ,like he says,
In Daur e Mohammadi 23 representatives of God on Earth,
ie Prophet sa +Mola Ali as +21 Imams=23,
And 23 Duat of Yemens,
And 23 Duat of Hind .
And then Dorul Fatrah started,In which There is no Representative of GOD on Earth and Imam is in Satr.


Many Question arises from his belief,But Ahmed Ali remained Firm on his belief and Died a Maut of Laeen,
May Allah Curse him Thousand Lakh times.
Khuda ni Laanat ....

Mr Insaf, Bieng the Torch Bearer of the Movement...
A question to you personally...
I hope bieng a Muslim & if you claim to be Dawoodi Bohra, You must be offering Salah. After Fajr Salah you recite name upt till which Duat......

And Why??

Ahmed Ali Raj is entitled to his opinion, just as I am. I take his writing on this issue to be a personal matter in which he makes an individual's sense of recent history of the Dais. He may convince some but the so-called Dawr al-Fatrah is his personal scheme and is new to history. It has yet to become, if it ever does, a received dogma amongst the Reformists.

I also have a personal opinion about the so-called 'infallibility' of Imams and Dais. Those who have read my previous postings on this issue will recall that I ascribe 'infallibility' only to Panjatan. No Imam after Imam Husain is infallible and the question of the infallibility of a Dai does not even arise. Before you jump to your uncivilized conclusion that my views are also reformists' view, understand that this is my personal opinion.

If you need information in support of my views search this forum and you will find it.

As regards recitation of the names of the Imams and Dais in namaaz, they are not required. That is why they are recited after the namaaz and not during namaaz. Namaaz begins with niyyat and ends with Salaam at the end of Tashahhud. Everything else is optional and recitation of names other than that of Allah has never been taught by Rasulullah to any Muslim.

@Porus
What about Daim of Walaya,
Whats Your Defination of Walaya?
Due to Whose Walaya our Salat and other Daims are Recognized??
Is it Copulsary to have Walaya (Ta'at,believe in Je kare ya kahe haq che Sarasar) of haq na saheb or optional?

Posted by porus elsewhere

As regards recitation of the names of the Imams and Dais in namaaz, they are not required. That is why they are recited after the namaaz and not during namaaz. Namaaz begins with niyyat and ends with Salaam at the end of Tashahhud. Everything else is optional and recitation of names other than that of Allah has never been taught by Rasulullah to any Muslim.

murtaza2152 wrote:@Porus
What about Daim of Walaya,
Whats Your Defination of Walaya?
Due to Whose Walaya our Salat and other Daims are Recognized??
Is it Copulsary to have Walaya of haq na saheb or Mandatory?

Let me put Ahmed Ali Raj's writings in a longer historical perspective. Entire Bohra 'Haqaiq' scheme is a personal construct of prominent Fatimid scholars. At that time it was personal opinion of these scholars and may have been approved by the Imam of the time. It did not come from Imam. There is no mention of aql awwal etc in the writings of Prophet, Ali, or Imams. If you do not believe this, try finding references to them in the major Shia site, al-islam.org, that you are so fond of quoting.

Walayat of ahl-e-bayt is sanctioned by the Quran and has become a cornerstone of the faith of the Shia. However, there is a saying attributed to Imam Baqir which states that, in effect, a person who cannot recognize the Imam of his time dies the death of jahiliya. It is stated in Daimul Islam and is controversial in the sense that there are many claimants to the title of the Imam.

It depends entirely on whose brainwashing you received when you were growing up as to who your Imam is. They will also tell you that Imams other than those your parents believed in are usurpers. This sort of thing has nothing to do with faith in Allah and the infallibles who are Panjatan, and only Panjatan.

@Porus,
These are Strictly your views Not the Official ,


According to you about which Imam you were Brainwashed??
Is there no Hikmat in like, I you are born in Dawoodi Bohra and other guy in Shia or Sunni or other Relegion?

Today Whose Walayat you consider compulsory in Dorus Satr of Imam? As per Daim hadis......
Or You believe in Only Allah and Panjatans?


And I know in LITERAL sense our haqaip is not there in Early writings of Imams....
I Strictly disagree With your point that haqaiq is from scholars not from Imams.



Acording to you only Panjatan are only Infallible.....
What about All Mustaqar Imams and Natiq and Asas?ie After Imam Husain as and before Nabi Mohammed


Please give answer of each question ,not the explanation...