the dai disobeys allah ??

[anajmi]

asif786,

That is a good point. I am wondering why this hasn't been raised by people studying this relationship on either the Sunni or more importantly, the Shia side?

[ghulam muhammed]

The point that was raised here was that Umme Kulsum (r.a.) who was married to Hazrat Umar (r.a.) was not the daughter of Mola Ali (a.s.) but someone else bearing the same name. Now that the shias who rever Mola Ali (a.s.) and hate Hazrat Umar (r.a.) themselves confirm the fact then very little scope remains to refute the said claim. Although the shia scholars have invented different stories with regard to the said marriage but the fact remains that they do not deny that it was Mola Ali's daughter who was the one who was married to Hazrat Umar (r.a.).

[asif786]

The point that was raised here was that Umme Kulsum (r.a.) who was married to Hazrat Umar (r.a.) was not the daughter of Mola Ali (a.s.) but someone else bearing the same name. Now that the shias who rever Mola Ali (a.s.) and hate Hazrat Umar (r.a.) themselves confirm the fact then very little scope remains to refute the said claim. Although the shia scholars have invented different stories with regard to the said marriage but the fact remains that they do not deny that it was Mola Ali's daughter who was the one who was married to Hazrat Umar (r.a.).

Br GM

You had clearly mentioned in your earlier post that the daughter of Fatema Zahra s.a was married to Umar and when you found that this marriage is haram you have shifted to Ali a.s another daughter was married to Umar !! Anyways in future atleast no body on this forum will associate Pak daughter of Fatema Zahra s.a with the son of Khattab .

[asif786]

asif786,

That is a good point. I am wondering why this hasn't been raised by people studying this relationship on either the Sunni or more importantly, the Shia side?

Anajmi

The shias know it very well that no daughter of Ali a.s was married to Umar . This explanation i heard from a pakistani punjabi zakir on youtube.

[Hussain_KSA]

Hafsa Bint Omar was not real mother of Fatima Zehra so marrying the daughter of Ali to Umar was not haram. In Allama shibli's book "Al farooque" number of references has been quoted to prove the marriage between umm kuthom and Umar. Quran in surae nisa has clearly stated who is mehram and who is not. Shias and other will leave no stone unturned to prove this wrong but fact is remain fact.

[asif786]

Nasehkul Tawareekh Volume 3 page 408:

"Umar bin Adheena asked Imam Ja'far Sadiq (as) 'People claim that 'Ali married his daughter to such a person'. The Imam, who was until then sitting down, stood up and said angrily, "Whoever holds such a viewpoint is misled." Subhanallah! Was Imam 'Ali unable to free his daughter from their clutches? He could have stood between them and her to protect, they have fabricated a lie".

This in effect denies any claims / viewpoints that Imam 'Ali (as) married Umme Kalthum to Umar. Imam Ja'far (as) made it clear that such a viewpoint was false. For us the word of the Imam (as) is final when he says that this marriage never took place then that is the end of the matter

[porus]

Quran in surae nisa has clearly stated who is mehram and who is not.

4:23 is not at all clear if it was permissible for Umar to marry Fatima's daughter.

Fatima was Hafsa's step-daughter. According to 4:23, if Hafsa was Umar's wife, he could have married Fatima only if he had not slept with Hafsa.

As Hafsa was Umar's daughter, Quran does not have anything to say whether he could marry Fatima, let alone Fatima's daughter.

Similar ambiguities in the Quran has led to the development of the corpus of Sharia Law. In Umar's case, in the period before the the full understanding of Sharia was developed in the wider Muslim community, we can only speculate as to what the moral climate was concerning Umar's marriage to his step-great-granddaughter.

While it can be argued that as Quran does not pronounce on this marriage in the literal sense, it is therefore permissible for Umar to have married his step-great-granddaughter, would it have been morally right? I do not believe that Muslim jurists today would allow such marriage.

[anajmi]

We know from the cases of Prophet Muhammad (saw) that marriages didn't always take place for the sake of pro creation or lust. Family ties, tribal relationships etc played a big part in marriages. As far as legality of the marriage is concerned, I am unable to apply my understanding to this case to figure out one way or another. I am going to talk about this to the Imam (not the hidden one) in a day or two. He is very knowledgeable in the Quran and might be able to give me an answer.

[Hussain_KSA]

We know from the cases of Prophet Muhammad (saw) that marriages didn't always take place for the sake of pro creation or lust. Family ties, tribal relationships etc played a big part in marriages. As far as legality of the marriage is concerned, I am unable to apply my understanding to this case to figure out one way or another. I am going to talk about this to the Imam (not the hidden one) in a day or two. He is very knowledgeable in the Quran and might be able to give me an answer.

I have already spoken to an imam (not the hidden one ) here in Saudi Arabia and he said there are some relations which come to cease after the death of one of the spouse as far as hurmat is concerned. However in Umar case it was not haram at all. Do you think a imam like stature of Ali bin Abu Talib (RA) would go against the Islam or Quran?

[porus]

We are dealing with two separate issues here.

1. Was Umar's marriage to Fatima's daughter permissible in accordance with the Sharia?

2. Was the Umm Kulthum that Umar married actually Fatima's daughter?

Jurists can possibly pronounce on the first question. The second question would require a thorough and rigorous historical research.

[porus]

I have already spoken to an imam (not the hidden one ) here in Saudi Arabia and he said there are some relations which come to cease after the death of one of the spouse as far as hurmat is concerned.

That clearly cannot be the case. Is this Imam sanctioning the marriage to a step-daughter when his wife, the mother of the girl by a previous marriage, dies?

[anajmi]

Do you think a imam like stature of Ali bin Abu Talib (RA) would go against the Islam or Quran?

No. But that question arises only because we are not sure of the identity of Umm Kulthum. If we can be sure that it was Hazrat Ali's daughter, then we can conclude that this kind of relationship is not haraam.

[JC]

HOW can he disobey himself

[ghulam muhammed]

Br GM

You had clearly mentioned in your earlier post that the daughter of Fatema Zahra s.a was married to Umar and when you found that this marriage is haram you have shifted to Ali a.s another daughter was married to Umar !! Anyways in future atleast no body on this forum will associate Pak daughter of Fatema Zahra s.a with the son of Khattab .

Bro asif786,

I fail to understand your point. Some people on this forum had stated that Umme Kulsum (r.a.) who was married to Hazrat Umar (r.a.) was not the daughter of Mola Ali (a.s.) but someone else bearing the same name, however shia scholars have confirmed that she was in fact Mola Ali's daughter, now whether or not she was born from Molatena Fatema-tus-zehra (a.s.) or another wife of Mola Ali (a.s.) doesnt make any difference because she still remains the daughter of Mola Ali (a.s.). The whole debate was as to how could Mola Ali (a.s.) marry his daughter to a supposedly infidel and his arch enemy and the marriage itself clarifies a lot of misunderstanding delibarately created by certain sectarian leaders as to the character of Hazrat Umar (r.a.) and his cordial relationship with Mola Ali (a.s.).

[Muslim First]

2. Was the Umm Kulthum that Umar married actually Fatima's daughter?

The second question would require a thorough and rigorous historical research.

The question arises only when shias start to paint Umar as enemy of Ali. Shias need not give Umar is due but stop this stupid cursing business. I will be frank, any sahaba's name is not taken in vain in Khutbas in Masjids I frequent. Islam is not about personalities. It is about worshipping Allah as per Qur'an and Sunnah.

I am sorry I introuduced Umar's marriage.

Now please back to "the dai disobeys allah"??

[asif786]

Br GM

You had clearly mentioned in your earlier post that the daughter of Fatema Zahra s.a was married to Umar and when you found that this marriage is haram you have shifted to Ali a.s another daughter was married to Umar !! Anyways in future atleast no body on this forum will associate Pak daughter of Fatema Zahra s.a with the son of Khattab .

Bro asif786,

I fail to understand your point. Some people on this forum had stated that Umme Kulsum (r.a.) who was married to Hazrat Umar (r.a.) was not the daughter of Mola Ali (a.s.) but someone else bearing the same name, however shia scholars have confirmed that she was in fact Mola Ali's daughter, now whether or not she was born from Molatena Fatema-tus-zehra (a.s.) or another wife of Mola Ali (a.s.) doesnt make any difference because she still remains the daughter of Mola Ali (a.s.). The whole debate was as to how could Mola Ali (a.s.) marry his daughter to a supposedly infidel and his arch enemy and the marriage itself clarifies a lot of misunderstanding delibarately created by certain sectarian leaders as to the character of Hazrat Umar (r.a.) and his cordial relationship with Mola Ali (a.s.).

Br GM

None of Ali a.s daughter was married to Umar . Inshallah you will get the answer on the detailed explanation with proofs given on Answering Anser website . As for cordial relations with Umar we can discuss some other time on islam today so as to release this thread for its subject " dai disobeys Allah"
http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ ... /chap1.php

[ghulam muhammed]

Br GM

None of Ali a.s daughter was married to Umar . Inshallah you will get the answer on the detailed explanation with proofs given on Answering Anser website . As for cordial relations with Umar we can discuss some other time on islam today so as to release this thread for its subject " dai disobeys Allah"
http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ ... /chap1.php

Bro asif786,

The subject site is more like the bohra sabak....... it goes round and round and confuses the reader without any satisfactory reply. It lays more emphasis on the alleged evils of Hazrat Umar (r.a.) thereby conditioning the minds of shias into not believing the said marriage. It contradicts the sunni hadiths but when it comes to shia literature which confirm the said marriage then it gives a vague answer that such was the "personal opinion" of the said shia scholar and hence personal opinions do not matter. In a nutshell, any shia religious book is accepted by them but when it comes to certain observations which goes against their agenda then that particular part is rejected.

I again reiterate that MANY SHIA scholars are of the view that the subject marriage did take place. Iam not talking about any sunni scholars because obviously those will be rubbished as hearsay.

[asif786]

Br GM

An unbiased mind would have immediately read the truth mentioned on Al Ansar but anyways, for a Shia, any authentic narration from Mohammed saw and Imams a.s over rules any saying/teaching of any shia scholar irrespective of how big the ulema is which contradicts them . We have numerous narration from Ali Zainul a.s , Muhammed ibn Ali a.s and Imam Jafar as sadiq a.s which do not agree to this marriage . The only agenda i see for creating this rumour is hiding the culprits of fadak and attackers of the house of Fatema s.a .

[danishwar]

.. the culprits of fadak and attackers of the house of Fatema s.a .

The claim that Fadak was inherited to Fatima, which is against the saying of the Prophet (peace be upon him) as present in both shia and sunni books

Let us now examine Sunni Hadith on the topic of Prophets and inheritance. Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said:

“We do not leave inheritance. What we leave behind is charity.” (Sahih Muslim, Kitab al-Jihad was-Siyar, no. 49)

“We, the Prophets, do not leave heirs.” (Musnad Ahmad, vol. 2 p. 462)

This is confirmed in Shia Hadith as well. Let us examine Shia Hadith in Al-Kafi, the most reliable of the four Shia books of Hadith, on the same matter:

“The Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance, but they left knowledge.” (al-Kafi, vol. 1 p. 42)

This Shia Hadith in Al-Kafi has two separate narrations, and is considered Sahih by the Shia.

The authenticity is confirmed by Ayatollah Khomeini, who used this Hadith to prove his claim of Wilayah al-Faqih. Khomeini said about the Hadith:

“The narrators of this tradition are all reliable and trustworthy. The father of ‘Ali ibn Ibrahim [namely Ibrahim ibn Hashim] is not only reliable, [but in fact] he is one of the most reliable and trustworthy narrators.”

(source: Khomeini, al-Hukumat al-Islamiyyah, p. 133, published by Markaz Baqiyyat Allah al-A’zam, Beirut)



And why curse Abu Bakar (may Alllah be pleased with him) only when Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) did not restore Fadak during his own rule? (Sharh Nahjul Balagha, Ibne Abil Hadeed, Vol. 16, Pg. 231) and no nonsense this time that Ibn Abil Hadeed is a sunni. He was a devout shia and Nahjul Balagha is a shia hadith book.

[asif786]

So Fatema sa. the daughter of prophet and leader of women in jannat did not know the islamic laws about inheritance?? And Ali a.s did not stop her from asking for the same?? Abubakr had more knowledge then Ali and Fatema??

[asif786]

The story of Fadak is one of the most heart-rending and tumultuous stories in the life of Fatimah the Lady of Islam (s.a.) in particular, and the family of the Prophet (s.a.w) in general, and in the history of Islam in a widespread and disseminating way. It is mingled with political conspiracies and many ups and downs and is a hatchway for the unravelling of a part of the important mysteries surrounding the early scene of Islam’s history.



However, first, before beginning this discussion, it is necessary to know what Fadak was and where it was located?

“Fadak”, as many of the historians and writers have written, was a flourishing, fertile village in the land of “Hejaz” near Khaibar, being two or three days journey from Medina, Some have reported this distance as 140 Kilometers, and in which there was a bubbling spring and many date palms[11] and after Khaibar it was known as the stronghold of the Jews in Hejaz.



As to how Fadak, this pleasant, prosperous village, was transferred to the Holy Prophet (S), it is well known that after the messenger of God (S) returned from the conquest of Khaibar God placed fear and panic in the hearts of the inhabitants of Fadak who were of the headstrong Jews. They sent a representative to the Prophet (S) and made to him a proposition of peace. In return for their transferral of half of Fadak to the Holy Prophet (S), he accepted and signed the peace treaty.



As such, Fadak became the public domain of the Prophet (s.a.w) because according to an explicit Quranic verse, something that is obtained by the Muslims without war is the exclusive right of the Prophet (S) and unlike spoils of war is not divided.[12] In this way the Prophet (S) took Fadak and spent its earnings on the fatigued wayfarers «أبناءالسبيل»and the like.

This has been mentioned by Tabri «الطبري»in his book of history and Ibn Alalthir «ابن الأثير» in is book Alkamil «الكامل» and others in their own books.

Also, Tabari in his book and Ibn Alathir in the book “Kamel” made a reference to this.[13] It was also mentioned by many historians confirming that the Prophet (S) during his own lifetime granted Fadak to the Lady of Islam Fatimah Zahra (s.a.).[14]



Strong evidence of this transferral is that many commentators, including the famous Sunni commentator Jalal-Al-Din Suyyuti in the commentary book (Dar-Al-Mansour) under the Quranic Verse; «وآتذاالقربىحقه» (give the near of kin their due), has quoted from “Abu Sa’id Khadri” that, because this verse was descended, the Apostle of God (S) asked for Fatimah and granted Fadak to her. The words of this tradition are as follows:



عن أبي سعيد الخدري رضي الله عنه قال: لما نزلت على النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم.الآية (فآت ذا القربى حقه) دعا النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فاطمة عليها السلام فأعطاها فدك فقال: هذالك ولعقبك من بعدك.



When the word of God was revealed saying that; “O’ Prophet! Give your near of kin their due”, the Apostle of God (S) granted Fadak to Fatimah (s.a.).

Under that same verse another tradition is narrated from “Ibn Abbas” which contains the same information.

Another eye - witness to this claim is the remark of Amir al Mum’inin (a.s.) in “Nahjul Balaghah” in relation to Fadak, in which he says:

« بلى كانت في ايدينا فدك من كل ما اظلته السماء فشحت بها نفوس قوم وسخت عنها نفوس آخرين، ونعم الحكم الله ... »

“Of course, all that we had in our possession under this sky was Fadak, but a group of people felt greedy for it and the other party withheld themselves from it. Allah, is after all the best arbitrator.”[15]



This remark clearly shows that in the Prophets (S) time Fadak was under the control of Ali (a.s) and Fatimah Zahra (s.a.). However, later a group of the Hakims jealous men feasted their eyes upon it and Ali (a.s.) and his wife-the Lady of Islam-were forced to overlook it, and of course this over looking did not occur of their own free will. If other than this was true then the calling of God as arbitrator i.e. to say « ونعم الحكم الله » would have been meaningless.

Among the great Shia scholars, a large group have also mentioned traditions related to this section in their own creditable books. Among them the following scholars may be mentioned;

The late Kulany «الكليني»in Kafy «الكافي», and the late Saduq «الصدوق»and the late Muhammad Ibin Masud Alayyashy« محمّدابنمسعودالعياشي» in their commentary and Ali Ibn Issa AlArbali «عليابنعيسىالأربلي»in Kashf Alghamma «كشفالغمة», and also another large group in books of commentary, history and traditions, of which mentioning all of them would be too lengthy.

Now let us see why and for what reason they took Fadak away from Fatimah (s.a.).







Notes:

[11]Mojam-Al-Boldan: The word Fadak.

[12]Quran; chapter 54, Vs 6 & 7.

[13]Refer to the book “Fadak” by Allamah Sayyid Muhammad Hasan Qazwini Haery

[14]Because it was a possession of the Prophet (S).

[15] “Nahjul Balaghah”, letter 45, translation into English by: “Ali Naqi-un-Naqvi”


Source Al-islam

[Muslim First]

Br Asif786

AS

Fadak has been discussed many times.

One question to you.

Ali RA was Khalif of all Umma for six years. It was in his powers to revert Fadak to his children. He did not do so and endorsed the judgement of previous (Zaheri) Khalifs.

Why?

[asif786]

Br Asif786

AS

Fadak has been discussed many times.

One question to you.

Ali RA was Khalif of all Umma for six years. It was in his powers to revert Fadak to his children. He did not do so and endorsed the judgement of previous (Zaheri) Khalifs.

Why?

Br MF

Ali a.s was khalifa for around 2 .5 years only and not 6 . Tell me frankly what would the muslim ummah say about later if he had taken back fadak during his khilfat? That Ali used his power as khalifa and snatched fadak which the rightly guided khalifa had not given to Fatema a.s . Dont forget how the muslim ummah had harrassed him during his short span of khilafat .He had to face 3 civil wars .

Forget about all other issues related to fadak , just answer me one question that would Fatema s.a go to the court of Abu bakr and ask for something which is not hers? Did she not understand the quran and sunnah ? was there anybody more knowledgable then Ali and Fatema during that time to reject there claim based on Quran . I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate ( Rasullah)

[asif786]

Correction, he was khalifa for 4.5 year

[porus]

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ ... /chap1.php

This is an extremely well argued and researched series of chapters. I no longer need convincing that Umar did not marry Fatima's daughter.

It is also interesting to note that these chapters also rescue Umar from calumnies that Nasibis have inadvertently heaped upon Umar. Nasibis main aim is to elevate Muawiya to the position at par with Muhammad, They cannot do that and therefore they must bring Muhammad and Ali down to the level of Muawiya.

[porus]

Before quoting the hadith about Muhammad's heirs, we must understand that Fadak was not 'inheritance'. So all those hadiths quoted in this thread are irrelevant.

Fadak was Fatima's property before Muhammad died and was confiscated from her by Abu Bakr. He then proceeded to distribute Prophet's property among his widows with lion's share going to his daughter, Aisha. Abu Bakr thus acted against the Sunna of the Prophet.

[anajmi]

I look at it from a different point of view. How many marriages of Hazrat Ali or Hazrat Umar do we discuss with the same kind of fervour? The only relationships that are discussed are those that cause heartburn to the Shia. The shia do not like Hazrat Aisha so they even deny an ayah of the Quran. Why does this particular marriage matter? It matters because it lays to waste shia beliefs. What beliefs are those that can be laid to waste based upon a marriage? I am sure the Sunni brothers wouldn't go into studying this marriage of Hazrat Umar if it weren't for the Shias. If today it is proven, beyond any doubt, that Hazrat Umar did not marry the daughter of Hazrat Ali, the faith of the Sunni jamaat is not affected at all. However, if today it is proven beyond any doubt that Hazrat Umar did marry the daughter of Hazrat Ali, the shia faith dies a painful death.

So these are the matchsticks that the shia faith is resting upon.

The narration from Jafar Sadiq where the prophet told Hazrat Ali that whoever makes Hazrat Fatima angry, makes him angry, was recently shown to have a lot of holes.

[anajmi]

Fadak was Fatima's property before Muhammad died and was confiscated from her by Abu Bakr. He then proceeded to distribute Prophet's property among his widows with lion's share going to his daughter, Aisha. Abu Bakr thus acted against the Sunna of the Prophet.

Can you post the source of this?

[porus]

Why should it matter to the faith of the Shia if Umar was, in fact, married to Fatima's daughter? Their faith appears to be unaffected by the fact that Aisha and Hafsa, both reviled by the Shia, were married to the Prophet; and thus both Abu Bakr and Umar were very closely related to Muhammad and, by extension, to both Fatima and Ali.

Even Abu Lahab was related to Muhammad, and Shimr, Imam Husain's killer, was related to Abul Fadl Abbas, Imam Husain's commander at Karbala.

I am more interested in historical accuracy than Shia-Sunni argument. The thing to do is to argue against answering-answer.org step-by-step and refute their claims.

[anajmi]

Fadak was Fatima's property before Muhammad died and was confiscated from her by Abu Bakr.

Do you know the story about the 33 tasbeehs that prophet gave as a gift to his daughter? She once went to the prophet seeking help in the form of a slave after the prophet returned from a war with some war booty. What did the prophet do? He refused her the slave that she desired and instead gave her a tasbeeh to be said after every fard salaah. Where and how did Hazrat Fatima get this property and from whom? History teaches us that this great family gave away even their iftaar 3 nights in a row and you have reduced Hazrat Fatima to someone fighting and crying over a piece of land. Just like Sunnis reduce Hazrat Umar to the level of Muawiya the shias have reduced hazrat Fatima to a materialistic woman.

Their faith appears to be unaffected by the fact Aisha and Hafsa, both reviled by the Shia, were married to the Prophet; and thus both Abu Bakr and Umar were very closely related to Muhammad and, by extension, to both Fatima and Ali.

You are right, their faith remains unaffected even after the massive evidence that already exists. What do you think evidence of the marriage is going to prove? Is it going to help one way or another? No it is not.