reformists shud learn a lesson

[student]

In the name of Allah most powerful...

No doubt syedna and his family are not baptize by holy water and no doubt that many things in present dawat need to be changed by current dai's,things like accountability,living a simple life and no extravaganza,no shirk committed by people are major issues and concern which dawoodi bohras are facing these days.

but people like reformist shud learn a lesson,if they want that they get more sympathy and support from people specially from orthodox bohras they must start obeying islamic guid lines like proper hijab and other sunnats which are totally absent in reformist movement,Ali asger definitely did a brave work by standing against the powerful kothar but he failed to increase islamic values within the reformists,right now reformists have lose there bohra identity and more often they have adopted miya bhai views and get up.

if reformists do want to suceed in its movement they shud strictly come back to bohra(shia) values.

[stranger]

Bro Student aka Labbaik ,

I seconded you.
To be Honest to myself, somewhere inside i myself carry reformist intellect. Some of the issue they have raised are genuine and can't be ignored.
I am not concern much ab accountability as I believe, where there is money, you cant stop corruption. .Kal ko agar reformist jamat badegi then they will also feel the same probs because Khula paise aur nangi aurat. .Kisi kaa bhi Imaan dagmaga deta hai and Aamils, Mulla, Sheikhs are Human being after ol.
They are not inflammable. Rather we are enjoying facilities much better than other sects and for that u need money to run the administration. so its fine.

But some concern bothers me like Too much glorification of da'i. .No doubt 52th Da'is is a holy man and we are blessed to have him but sometimes it go over. He himself never ask this but bunch of people around create unnecess hype. ..Even Major Majlises and Wahaz are centeralized on it. In every third sentence we are being remind the same thing again and again. .It irritates coz i dont want to listen to it. .If i am coming to mosque in order to listen the Shahadat of Moula ALi (A.S.) on 19th Ramadan then Please tell us more and more ab ALi (A.S.), ab his life, Values, Teachings and everything. .Not all This.
and For this reason alone, I started going to Twelevers Majlises, since last 3 years. .I didnot want to, but i guess, i was left with No choice.

Prophet, Ali, Imams were also holy people and leader of Islam but I dont think that this must be the condition of the people at that time. . I am very much Orthodox bohra and i feel proud to be one but certain things since months have been bothering me.
I just wonder if ever followers of Prophet, Moula Ali (A.S.) and Imam Hussain (A.S.) use to join hands shouting name and run behind them ? Or I wonder if that was, lets assume, so then was this kinda behaviour and culture would had been pleased them or displeased them ? I go confused at times.

But certainly the Reformist also lacks the spiritual values. May be they dont have the learned and trained group of peoples like Aamil to guide them.May be its true that Aamils are corrupt, money lovers, authoritarian but they are doing their duty where they have to do. U need peoples like them to run community.
I think that reformist wants to create a different image by not keeping beard and not wearing rida. .They want to present themseleves as the Non-orthodox and free from priestine obligations but in the end they are keeping themseleves deprived of Sunnah and basic teachings of Islam.

Allah Knows the Best.

[anajmi]

They are not inflammable.

I certainly hope not.

[SBM]

Br. Stranger
Ramdan Kareem
Lately I have noticed a change in tone from some the DBs who used to defend the practices of Kothar very rigidly. May be if some of the reformists on this board tone down their language and show some respect and people from other side refrain using derogatory language and laanats on everyone, we can have a very civil discussion. There is no doubt this message board is being monitored by Kotharis and hopefully they can see which way the wind is blowing and learn to mend their ways, they are very shrewd and sharp and understand how to stay in power, Did not they kiss up to Narendra Modi and Saddam Hussain

[stranger]

Br. oma,
Ramadan kareem to u too. will respond to ur post later smtime.

All the respected members and visitors,
Plz excuse my silly mistake above, its Infallible, not inflammable. .lol. In too much of haste, i missed it big time

Anajmi,
Thanx for making me realise.
Ramadan kareem, hope to counter you in more contructive way, atleast during holy month.

[ghulam muhammed]

if they want that they get more sympathy and support from people specially from orthodox bohras they must start obeying islamic guid lines like proper hijab and other sunnats which are totally absent in reformist movement

Bro student,

Is the colourful, embroidered and stitched with expensive lace and a rida with slits on the sides costing thousands of rupees, a "hijab" ? As regards beard, please conduct an honest poll of bohras and ask them as to whether they grow the same due to "sunnat" of Prophet (s.a.w.) or "mola nu farman chhe etle".

right now reformists have lose there bohra identity and more often they have adopted miya bhai views and get up.

So anything which does not confirm to the dictates of the dai is "miyabhai views" no matter if it is within the parameters of Islam.

if reformists do want to suceed in its movement they shud strictly come back to bohra(shia) values.

How sacred are bohra "values" ? Kissing the tyres of their master's car, felicitating the butcher of muslims, Narendra Modi, taking loan to pay wajebat (including zakat) as dictated by kothari goons, recognising the sanctity of a masjid only if the dai gives a nod after sucking crores from his followers and burying his near and dear ones after paying thousands (sometimes even lacs) to the "kafan chor" royal family inspite of knowing that the burial ground is given free of cost by the government ?

[aqs]

Bro student,

Is the colourful, embroidered and stitched with expensive lace and a rida with slits on the sides costing thousands of rupees, a "hijab" ? As regards beard, please conduct an honest poll of bohras and ask them as to whether they grow the same due to "sunnat" of Prophet (s.a.w.) or "mola nu farman chhe etle".

Br. GM,

what is better a colorful rida which covers women or women seen in salwar kamiz in the pics, and for a second if i take your word that people grow beard due to Moula's farman then what is end reasult, isnt the end result important.

So anything which does not confirm to the dictates of the dai is "miyabhai views" no matter if it is within the parameters of Islam.

No dictate of Dai is out of bound of Sharia,

How sacred are bohra "values" ? Kissing the tyres of their master's car, felicitating the butcher of muslims, Narendra Modi, taking loan to pay wajebat (including zakat) as dictated by kothari goons, recognising the sanctity of a masjid only if the dai gives a nod after sucking crores from his followers and burying his near and dear ones after paying thousands (sometimes even lacs) to the "kafan chor" royal family inspite of knowing that the burial ground is given free of cost by the government ?

since last couple of weeks i am seeing this new allegation flying from this board that Bohra's kiss Dai's car's tyres now how pathetic can this be, seriously have you seen this or better will be if you can post some pics, i have been their innumerous times and have never ever seen this.

for rest of your post we have been down this road earlier but you still continue on the same path of false accusations. These horses have been beaten to death but you resurrect them time and again, i really dont understand what reform you want to usher in by this kind of talk.

Try to concentrate on positives at least in Ramdaan for a change.
Ramdaan Kareem

[anajmi]

1) There were no individual masallas during the time of the prophet (saw)
2) There were no topis during the time of the prophet (saw). The prophet (saw) used to wear a turban.
3) There were no ridas during the time of the prophet (saw) but full abayas.
4) The prophet (saw) wasn't an idol worshipper 10% of the time.

[SBM]

Nalwala
There are no topis and no individual Masalla during Hajj and Umrah even DBs donot wear STD so do you think topi and individual Masalla space has any more significance then Hajj and Umrah

[canadian]

These pictures of the reformists remind me of how we all Bohras looked like about forty years ago. And now we look like sheep or cattle- all in uniform clothing, no individuality.

Forty years ago if you asked an amil or mulla a question, he would try his best to answer; now he will tell you to join the sabak.

[faisala]

Being a bohra i really feel that our community follows our DIA's more then the teachings of the nabi and Quran which i really feel it shouldn't be done. Being a muslim is not following your Dia's or your moulana or imam's, its about following the true teachings of our nabi and the other prophets as well following the facts of Quran. Growing a beard is sunnah and should not be grown just because its said by apna maula and wearing rida is more of a style in the bohras which does not cover the lady completely and has more of a style and colour added to it rather as a necessity in Islam. However i am not pointing or creating argument between bohras or sunnis because as a fact the burkha is not meant for fashion its meant to cover the lady from evil eyes and from exposing herself in public. The bukhra should be used in one piece cloth from neck to the feet to cover the body of the, which in bohras is not to been seen. The rida of our bohras as well the burkhas of the sunnis are become more of a fashion fragment rather then a necessity in Islam which shoudl be used for its means.

The people in the administration of bohras as a fact are just siting making money asking people to pay for all the possible reasons that really don't make sense at times. To bury a muslim there should be no amount to be paid since the land is given by Allah and to bury his follower an amount is being charged is the most shameful thing. And on the other hand the higher the amount the better the place. Sometimes i feel that a bohra community is turning to be a money making organization and less of a Islamic organization. I would only like to say is that we all are muslims and in Quran though im not a schloar but we all know as a face that there is no sunni or shia. these are man created communities. Prayers should be prayed covering your heads and on janamaz (massala) wearing clean clothes and should be prayed 5 times a day. I do agree that the facility provided are excellent but we should keep in mind that we are all Muslims first and the bohras.

Kindly pardon me if i have said anything wrong, since there are no intentions of degrading anybody cast in here. I am on pointing at the problems faced in the current world situation.

[Humsafar]

How shallow and superficial abdes are, all they care about is outer form and appearance but ignore the essence and the substance. Now look at the inane debate they are having about "bohri namaz" and "Sunni namaz". They are hung up with "appearance" during namaz not the namaz itself. They ignore the context and circumstance in which namaz is being offered. These people are in a protest rally, at a public place, on a road. They are not in a masjid (I'll post a picture of reformist namaz in a masjid when I find one - not because I've to prove anything but just to satisfy your curiosity). They did not go to the Collectorate to pray but to protest. You do not take your massallas with you when you go on a protest. The important point is that they prayed when it was time to pray, and they did so in the best manner possible under the circumstance.

Br Canadian is right, this is what Bohras looked like a generation ago. Topi and beard and rida are not mandatory in Islam. They were not for Bohras either a generation ago. The majority of Muslims in the world do not wear them, it does not make them any less Muslim. Yes it is the sunnah of the prophet, and any Muslim or prog. Borha who wants to wear them they are welcome to do so. There is no compulsion. Compulsion comes only from tyrannical regimes like the Taliban and the Kothar. And tyrannical regimes only enforce superficial things like these, they never enforce things that really matter, values that form the core of Islam like truthfulness, justice, compassion, accountability. In fact, the Kothar and the Taliban violate every core Islamic value that there is. I've never heard an abde protesting about the lack of justice and accountability in our "properly" dressed community! But they will jump to high heaven when they spot a face without a beard or head without a topi.

Also, we must understand that outer appearance is a product of culture. Since it originated in Arabia Islam is imbued with Arab cultural biases. As anajmi pointed out, the prophet Mohammed wore a truban, why don't you abdes do the same? Instead, you guys wear topis which is unique to "your" culture. The point is to cover your head, how you do it is not so important. The point is that women should dress modestly, how they do it is not so important. Saya, topi and rida are articles of clothing, do not turn them into articles of faith. But people who know little and understand even less cannot be expected to do any better.

[faisala]

Dear Humsafar i agree with what you have to say but at one point in regards to not wearing a topi. rida or saya i would say that if suppose a rida or a bukhra is worn by a lady then the purpose must be fulfilled and not be worn for style or to attract other ladies or men and as for the men saya is not really complusory but yes it is necessary to cover you head before you start your prayers. Covering your head with a cap or a cloth is compulsory during the prayer and in regards to the janamaz (massalla) looking at the situation the point is to pray since it was on teh road the people have used a green cloth which at one point clears the dirt.

So as per the nabi sunnah wearing a burkha or a rida is sunnah as well covering your heads and growing a beard.

[student]

just finished reading autobiography of Ali ashgar,and i was correct to say that he definitely did a courageous job by standing against corrupted priesthood.it was a noble work,but he failed to develop islamic values within these reformists which is ultimate reason for the failure of reformist movement.

[SBM]

Student
And where does DB learn their Islamic Values, from the Corrupted Priesthood

[Muslim First]

by faisala
Covering your head with a cap or a cloth is compulsory during the prayer and in regards to the janamaz (massalla) looking at the situation the point is to pray since it was on teh road the people have used a green cloth which at one point clears the dirt.

Brother
Covering your head with a cap or a cloth is not compulsory for men but is Sunnah of Prophet. It is necessary in Hanafi Madhab. In India everybody used to wear topy during prayers but this has changed since workers returning from ME started praying with bear head.

Please read following book abouts "Prophet's prayers described". This book is by Sheikh Albaani who spent life time studying Ahadit.
http://abdurrahman.org/salah/prophetsPrayerAlbaani/

Here is link to video showing the way Prophet prayed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQpIhi3c ... ure=relmfu

Read it, see it and profit from it.

Wasalaam

[student]

Student
And where does DB learn their Islamic Values, from the Corrupted Priesthood

omabharti or who ever u are,it is realy disgusting too see a first world citizen being so dumb and illiterate about his/her own community history,you need to understand the basic concept that bohra or shia values doesnt comes from sayedna taher saifuddin or syedna muhammed burhanuddin,this customs are 1400 years old,and we bohras are graced by Allah with such rich histrory of ahlul bayt imamain and duat mutlaqin and many auliyaas.

[Biradar]

just finished reading autobiography of Ali ashgar,and i was correct to say that he definitely did a courageous job by standing against corrupted priesthood.it was a noble work,but he failed to develop islamic values within these reformists which is ultimate reason for the failure of reformist movement.

Brother Student,

It seem that for you, and for the orthodox, "Islamic" values are just those values which you hold. Everything else is classified under "sunni", "miyabhai" and other derogatory terms.

Lets think about Islam as a religion. Lets reflect on the life of the prophet, Ali, Fatema and Hassan and Hussain. The first, and most important thing, which is immediately obvious is that Islam as practiced by these great individuals was an egalitarian religion. If we look at the prophet's life he tried to bring justice to an unjust Arab tribal society, he tried to eliminate differences based on tribal affiliations, color of skin, wealth etc. The essence of Islam is one of equality before Allah and hence egalitarianism follows naturally. The Quran exhorts many times to respect parents, the poor, the orphan and weak in society. Its single most important message (after tawheed) is one of equality of believers, irrespective of their station in life. Imam Hussain many times sacrificed external requirements to help someone in need. Imam Hassan abdicated to prevent the muslim community from splitting.

What do these examples tell you? They tell me, and many reformists, that Islam is not really concerned about external appearances. The essence is what matters. Otherwise a rich and powerful man would be more valuable to Allah than a poor man. So lets focus on how the progressives have put back genuine Islamic values in the Bohra community. They have made people more helpful, socially concerned and ready to take a cause which they believe in.

What has the orthodox done? They have put the emphasis completely on show. The first thing the orthodox want is good press coverage. You see the da'i and his cohorts ready for a photo op with every random two-dime politician, rich man or tyrant. All that matters is that good photos are taken and some coverage is given in the press. Is this what Islam is about? It does not matter how many namaaz you pray or how white your clothes are or how long your beard is. Allah is more concerned on how you live you life in a ethical manner. Have you helped your poor brother or sister? Have you tried to fight for a just cause? It does not matter what clothes you wear or how to appear. Ethics, love and respect is all that matters.

Let me tell you a personal story. There were at one time many women who wanted to do good by helping the poor. They would collect as much money as they could so that they could pay for school fees, textbooks or even food for poor in Ramazan. I know this as I had someone in my family like that. In Ramazan there would be people coming in and out of house every day all day to collect clothes and wheat for the month. However, in an effort to centralize the Kothari goons shut this small charity down. They want all the money for themselves. To do what? To build grand marble tombs over dead people, to build luxury apartments and, most importantly, to go hunting and fly around in expensive planes and helicopters. All this to impress the bohras. Admittedly, they wear white clothes and have long beards and even pray on time. All this is wasted. You need basic humanity first, before trying to walk the narrow path which Allah has laid down for you.

Hence, I think, the progressives have deep Islamic values in the true sense of the word and not just for show, like our great leaders do.

[student]

birader i do agree with you that true islamic values is love and care for humanity,but the concept of calling hazrats and start giving respect to tyrants who did zulm of ahlul bayt,and start calling them dead and making fun of matame hussain,all this qualities are not of a mumeen but of munafiqs,i personally know many bohras who help a lot to people and do many charitable work,but they have never given up respect to our shia values.

my point is just because reformists tried to leak foots of these miya bhai and started taking interest in there culture leaving true shia values,they have lost respect and path of ahlul bayt.and this is what have killed the reformist movement.

[anajmi]

Very well said Biradar.

[Humsafar]

Excellent post, Biradar. Let's hope they read and reflect.

Student, please show how reformists "have lost shia values and have lost respect and path of ahlul bayt". Thank you.

[Muslim First]

you need to understand the basic concept that bohra or shia values doesnt comes from sayedna taher saifuddin or syedna muhammed burhanuddin,this customs are 1400 years old

Make sure you know history. It took more then 200 years for Shiasm to jell.

From : http://moonsighting.com/chronology.html

Up to the time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq, friends of Ali (Shi'aan-e-Ali) were not considered any different from other Muslims. Imam Ja'far Sadiq had two sons, Isma'il and Musa al-Kazim. Followers of Isma'il become the "Seveners" or "Ismailis. Followers of Musa al-Kazim become the "Twelvers" who believed that the lineage of Imam continued with Imam Musa al-Kazim. Beginning of Shi'ism was not documented before this time, but long after, when the concept of 12 Imams became the basis of Shi'as after the 12th Imam's disappearance in 878 CE.

Brother Student, When are you going to gradute from "Baal Shala"(that is KG)?

[Muslim First]

Its lick not leak
You learn that in grade school

[British]

Quote Biradar "If we look at the prophet's life he tried to bring justice to an unjust Arab tribal society, he tried to eliminate differences based on tribal affiliations, color of skin, wealth etc."

Correct, if one studies the life of the Prophet they will conclude that first and foremost the Prophet himself was the greatest reformer of his time.

[Maqbool]

Bro Student aka Labbaik ,
I think that reformist wants to create a different image by not keeping beard and not wearing rida. .They want to present themseleves as the Non-orthodox and free from priestine obligations but in the end they are keeping themseleves deprived of Sunnah and basic teachings of Islam.

Allah Knows the Best.

I think Stranger must be a young person and that is why he does not know that the rida, dadhi, saya and the other things entered in our religion since last 30 to 40 years. It was never imposed or was cared by Dawoodi bohras. If you see old photos of jamats or family you will find many bohras with clean shaved or without rida. This come in to force only after the Mercantile bank episode. The jangli dadhi is imposed very recently. This will be done only in cult not in religion.

I think that these things should be kept aside when religion is concerned. If you pray a namaj God will not see your dress but will consider your niyat. We must not forget that the highest prayer in our religion is Haj, and it is performed without topi or kurta!!

[student]

Bro Student aka Labbaik ,
I think that reformist wants to create a different image by not keeping beard and not wearing rida. .They want to present themseleves as the Non-orthodox and free from priestine obligations but in the end they are keeping themseleves deprived of Sunnah and basic teachings of Islam.

Allah Knows the Best.

I think Stranger must be a young person and that is why he does not know that the rida, dadhi, saya and the other things entered in our religion since last 30 to 40 years. It was never imposed or was cared by Dawoodi bohras. If you see old photos of jamats or family you will find many bohras with clean shaved or without rida. This come in to force only after the Mercantile bank episode. The jangli dadhi is imposed very recently. This will be done only in cult not in religion.

I think that these things should be kept aside when religion is concerned. If you pray a namaj God will not see your dress but will consider your niyat. We must not forget that the highest prayer in our religion is Haj, and it is performed without topi or kurta!!

very nice,I am sure reformist prays namaz naked in there house.

[Muslim First]

PreKG Srudent
very nice,I am sure reformist prays namaz naked in there house.

You have not been taught to read
Maqbool said;

If you pray a namaj God will not see your dress but will consider your niyat.

Where does it say pray naked?

[Muslim First]

Humsafar
They did not go to the Collectorate to pray but to protest. You do not take your massallas with you when you go on a protest. The important point is that they prayed when it was time to pray, and they did so in the best manner possible under the circumstance.

Is it not whole earth a Masjid? You can pray on earth and do not need Masalla. We Mainstram Muslims pray on bare earth when it is time to pray and we do not carry fency Masalla with us everywhere.

When I was sick I prayed in a Masjid with my clean Handkerchif on carpet. A brother pointed out to me (you llok like shia when you do that) and I had to explaind to him that bacause of illness I did not want to inhale the construction dust.

[Muslim First]

Watch from minute 2:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXube82KSGs

[student]

Humsafar
They did not go to the Collectorate to pray but to protest. You do not take your massallas with you when you go on a protest. The important point is that they prayed when it was time to pray, and they did so in the best manner possible under the circumstance.

Is it not whole earth a Masjid? You can pray on earth and do not need Masalla. We Mainstram Muslims pray on bare earth when it is time to pray and we do not carry fency Masalla with us everywhere.

When I was sick I prayed in a Masjid with my clean Handkerchif on carpet. A brother pointed out to me (you llok like shia when you do that) and I had to explaind to him that bacause of illness I did not want to inhale the construction dust.

for the same reason bohras uses masalla,coz its hygenic,people may have different diseases and may be breathing in same carpet may cause allergy. washing individual masalla is easier then washing whole masjid carpet.

bohra values are most practical and hygenic.