Where do they get these Amil Sahebs

Guest · #91

Dear Believer, "If ethics ever come in to play in your blind faith (and common sense of course) you will eventually learn that if the money is for someone else, it is not yours."---My "blind faith" is based solidly on islamic fiqh and tradition...and not my opinion as you so consistly promote."so what is his source of income? Again, you are contradicting yourself."---The money given to the Dai is his...not to give back to the community..unless he wishes to. It his right upon the community to receive this money...if you wish to follow the Imam and his Dai. If you don't want to...then leave the community and be content."So it IS A BUSINESS and not a religious charity, ..."---You have a weak grasp of knowledge if that's all you got from my statement...that example was written to help you understand the difference between rights and payroll.

Guest · #92

Why not you guys leave, divide the past loot among the existing members, giving us our share you keep yours.

Guest · #93

Dear Anajmi,"I am using this as an excuse for what???"--An excuse to marginalize and make statements like" Only problem is that, I cannot threaten my employer to pay up.""God required us to pay zakat and khums,dai requires us to pay it to him."---God requires us to pay zakat and khums to his representative on earth. You forgot that part."All defintions I wrote were created by western ideology so we need to reject them, but definitions created by your ideology?? we need to accept them."---I did not mean that. What I meant was western definitions have built in characteristics and implications based on past usage of the terms. The British King was both king of religion and people entirely. A Persian Shah did not control religious interpretation. Shah and a western king are not equal. This is why terms like "sayedna", "mawlana", etc are used...which are more correct."I refer to my little daughter as my little princess, however I do not expect anyone else to refer to her the same way unless I believe that she actually is a princess!!!"---You statement doesn't correlate to my example...Imam Hassan and Husayn were called princes during the life of the Prophet and Maulana Ali as a term of love for their association to the Prophet and Maulana Ali. They were not treated as a western prince would be though. They were treated as for their religious attainments.

Guest · #94

Dear Qiyam,What was the Arabic word for prince that Prophet used to describe Hasan and Husain?

Guest · #95

Dear Porus, The terms used were amir or malik..which has been typically translated prince in the context of those hadiths. This is different from amir al'muminin which is typically translated "leader of the believers" those some use "prince of the believers".

Guest · #96

uthor Topic: Nairobi jamat mo posted 09-19-2002 04:56 AM ET (US) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man i wish we could do something about the Hebetullah family led by sheikh hussein and saifuddin who control the community with an iron fist mafia style. They claim they are the direct representitives of seyedna and any amil that tries to relex any rules is quickly "deported" . These satanic people i think must be opening bottles of champaign whenver someone dies or is getting married as its the perfect opportunity to hassle and and make some quick money.

Guest · #97

Dear Brother Qiyam,All I can say after reading your post is, duh!!

Guest · #98

Where is your proof that Imam Hassan and Hussein were called Amir or Malik? The word Malik is not to be used for human as it implying the sovereignty of Allah swt.They (Hassan & Imam Hussein) were called either Ibnu Rasurullah (Sons of Prophet), Shabab Ahlul Jannah or Moula.

Guest · #99

Which Context? How did you derive the context of the hadith ? Can you validate that with real proof? posted 09-23-2002 12:31 PM ET (US) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Porus, The terms used were amir or malik..which has been typically translated prince in the context of those hadiths. This is different from amir al'muminin which is typically translated "leader of the believers" those some use "prince of the believers".

Guest · #100

---The money given to the Dai is his...not to give back to the community..unless he wishes to. It his right upon the community to receive this money...if you wish to follow the Imam and his Dai. If you don't want to...then leave the community and be content.This says it ALL. Either you are with us or against us. Plenty of dogma and rabid followers.

Guest · #101

Br Qiyam: You have come to the lowest of the low argument which is frequently done by your Syedna & amils -" Either beleive me or leave!"

Guest · #102

mo posted 09-20-2002 09:36 AM ET (US) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- huz whatever you say we are the only religeos sect that i know that has little or no respect for a mayat let alone the living which is so often demonstarted here in kenya you should see the humiliation people go through when they loose a a family member here and please don't tell me seyedna is not aware of it the only reason he turns a blind eye is because him and the hebetullah family that controls the jamat here are "Business partners".

Guest · #103

Dear Anajmi, "duh!"---If that you response...I wish you wouldn't have even participated in the discussion. You neither rebutted nor defended your stance.Dear Jinx, "Where is your proof that Imam Hassan and Hussein were called Amir or Malik? The word Malik is not to be used for human as it implying the sovereignty of Allah swt."--To be called malik doesn't make you al'Malik..as Allah is referred to. There is a huge difference.Regarding your proofs..I will give you one..you will have to look for yourself to find the others. I get tired of being accused of things based on opinion...and then asked to prove myself. Why don't you prove your opinion first!al'Asbagh ibn Nabatah who says that the Commander of the Faithful `Ali ibn Abu Talib (as) once approached, his hand in the hand of his son alHasan, and said: "The Messenger of Allah once came to us and his hand was in mine like this, saying: `The best of creation after me, and their master, is this brother of mine who is the Imam of every Muslim, the prince of every believer after me.'" (AlSaduq's Ikmal) "This says it ALL. Either you are with us or against us. Plenty of dogma and rabid followers."---Sorry, but Islam at its roots is a dogma...THERE IS NO GOD, BUT THE GOD (ALLAH)...also see surah kafirun. You either believe in Allah and Muhammad as the messenger of Allah or you don't. It is an ultimatum...and is the only thing that makes you a muslim. So to criticize me for following the Dai, is no different than criticizing me for following the Imam (though they are not equivalent). The money I give to the Dai as zakat and khums...is the same money I would be giving the Imam. And I believe your argument would still be the same as well and still hold little water.

Guest · #104

Dear Qiyam,Can you quote a hadith where Muhammad or Ali refers to Husan or Husain as his prince meaning his son?Please quote the Arabic transliteration. Thank you.Shias refer to Imams as Amirul mumineen. Sunnis use that designation for all caliphs including Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman. I also know that Bohras confine the designation to Ali, unless clarified further.ou claimed that Prince or Shazada was used by Muhammad when referring Hasan or Husain. Your example does not refer to that incident.

Guest · #105

Dear Qeyam:Better you stop making others fool by your wage, inconclusive and illogical answers, for which I am you will be questioned at the final day of judgement.Q.4: Why Syedna has asked all Bohras to pray two rakat of prayer for him after every Magrib/Isha prayer? [where "Namaz" can only be offered to Allah almighty no one else] Q.5: When Shariah has clearly defined the use of Zakat, how Syedna and his family can use this money?Q.6: Why Bohras have to perform Matam after every prayer?Further regarding your response that posting of amil from Syedna's family; you are just pretending. Otherwise how one can gorget these blood sucking leeches.

Guest · #106

Dear Porus, I think you have miscontrued my argument. The original case was the use of shahzada as an automatic denoting of a princely status. My argument against it was that the Prophet and Maulana Ali called their children amir or malik (which is prince in arabic) as well as most adherents of the Ahlul Bayt did at that time, but this did not denote a princely status per a western definition as part of it.So when the hadith I quoted stated Maulana Ali calling Imam Hasan as the prince (amir) of the believers...by your analogy Imam Hasan is a shahzada. Was he treated like a shahzada? Was Maulana Ali treated like a king. No and yes...they were treated like the western definition of a king/prince based on their islamic knowledge and humilaty...not their relations.The sunni imam Admed ibn Hanbal stated in his musnad that: "Whenever Alláh reveals `O ye who believe...,' `Ali is implied as their prince and dignitary."The Apostle of Allah said:" Hassan and Husain are two lords of the youth of paradise."Was the Prophet considering them actual lords per a western definition. Obviously not.It should be stated that the Prophet said to love his ahlul bayt as they love him.

Guest · #107

Dear Sajid, Q.4: Why Syedna has asked all Bohras to pray two rakat of prayer for him after every Magrib/Isha prayer? [where "Namaz" can only be offered to Allah almighty no one else]---As the leader of the bohras and the love they have for him..they perform this voluntary salat to Allah for him; much as you would do for your parents.Q.5: When Shariah has clearly defined the use of Zakat, how Syedna and his family can use this money?---Do you know how this money is actually used? No. So why do you assume you do?Q.6: Why Bohras have to perform Matam after every prayer?---It is not required. It is a method of remembering Imam Husayn after the salat.

Guest · #108

Sajid,>Q.4: Why Syedna has asked all Bohras to pray two rakat of prayer for him after every Magrib/Isha prayer? [where "Namaz" can only be offered to Allah almighty no one else] Note that there is a difference in the language here, even as you yourself have stated it. Saying a prayer "for" someone is not equivalent to offering a prayer "to" them. In this case, syedna would be the beneficiary, not the object, of the supplication TO God. Whether you object to the practice of praying for someone altogether is another matter, and I think would get back to the issue of intercession.Q.5: When Shariah has clearly defined the use of Zakat, how Syedna and his family can use this money?As far as I understand it, the imam, and therefore his kal masoom representative, is the living shariah. He is able to interpret freely the meaning of the Qur'an and laws laid down by the Prophet, and apply his divinely inspired judgement to the situation at hand and decide how best to implement the spirit of Islamic law. In this sense, the boundaries of Shia thought and theology are not circumscribed by the written text of the hadith and the Qur'an as are the Sunni. Again, whether this is for good or ill is another matter. I have also read somewhere (don't know how reliable the account is) that bohras believe the Imam uzZamaan will, on his return, repeal the existing shariah and create a new order, further evidence as to the leeway the imam (and presumably the dai) has to interpret and implement existing shariah.Salaams

Guest · #109

Does anyone know that notorious sycophant Sheikh Zohair of Toronto, ex- Amil, when he was departing from Toronto (good riddance of better rubbish(, this month by air, he was refused to fly to wherever he was flying to because of some questionable actions - taking too much of the ill-gotten gains from Canada and the fellow passengers refusing to fly with him as he reminded them of Osama Bin Laden. Apparently some disgruntled members of the Toronto Jamaat had tipped off the authorities of the laundered and untaxed funds he was illegally carrying.He is believed to be still in Canada !!!! Can someone shed some true light on this please. ?

Guest · #110

Qiyam,"that example was written to help you understand the difference between rights and payroll."Payroll is a right, recieving donations is a privilege, so exactly what is your point ? A privlege has associated accountability. Very basic to me...and you ? ME: "Are you really saying that the Dai's money is not coming from the community?" YOU: "---No I did not say this." ME: "you did finally agree that it is the community's money." YOU: "I have agreed to nothing you've stated"Well, without using 'Duh!", what is exactly your point ? You can't have it both ways.ME: "Should he not correct this? If he is not in the know, should he not be?" YOU:"Pray tell me what you think the director of Al'Azhar makes a year??? ME:"Not enough to go to Safaris in Africa or travel to Europe, and the US with family & Daddy. "And your answer is ?YOU:Do you know how this money is actually used? No. So why do you assume you do?"I don't assume anything, the proof is in the pudding. Please refer to the above."You can argue what you want about it..but argue with God. " OK, how about we start with his representative who can lead us to heaven ?

Guest · #111

Dear Qiyam,Monarch, Prince, King are not just the Western concepts. They exist all around the globe and are rightly considered anachronisms. The hadith you quoted does not refer to Imam Hasan as Amir but Prophet is referring to Ali as Amirul Mumineen.Shahzada is explicit and very royal. Sayedna's sons are indeed royalty and expect the same level of pomp and undeserved accolade that monarchs the world over demand. Sayedna's treatment by Bohras is embarrassingly royal.What is to be made of structures like Rauda Tahira, a right royal tomb. This modern day pyramid is a testimony to Nimrud-like arrogance.Please read Shelley's poem Ozymandias. Here is an extract:And on the pedestal these words appear: "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains: round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Guest · #112

Dear QiyamPlease do not put a wrong meaning in the bracket. Amir do not mean Prince, It means leader. Shehzada is a Persian word that denotes Sons (Zada) of King (Shah). Normal people like our Holy Prophet call their son Putr (farsi/hindi) or Ibnu (Arabic).Try to read the hadith in Arabic as suggested by Br Porus. It would help you from making sweeping generalizations which sounds foolish and far fetched qiyam posted 09-24-2002 04:55 PM ET (US) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Porus, I think you have miscontrued my argument. The original case was the use of shahzada as an automatic denoting of a princely status. My argument against it was that the Prophet and Maulana Ali called their children amir or malik (which is prince in arabic) as well as most adherents of the Ahlul Bayt did at that time, but this did not denote a princely status per a western definition as part of it. So when the hadith I quoted stated Maulana Ali calling Imam Hasan as the prince (amir) of the believers...by your analogy Imam Hasan is a shahzada. Was he treated like a shahzada? Was Maulana Ali treated like a king. No and yes...they were treated like the western definition of a king/prince based on their islamic knowledge and humilaty...not their relations.

Guest · #113

Dear Jinx and Porus, I don't have the access to that particular hadith in arabic. I quoted it direct and did not translate it myself. Based on it the word amir was used. I would remind you and Br. Porus..that amir doesn't mean leader a majority of the time, but in fact is used a prince. The sons of king Fahd in Saudi are called amirs.

Guest · #114

Dear Porus, Please read the hadith again as well as the others I quoted. The hadith describes Maulana Ali acting out with Maulana Hasan an occurance that he had with Rasullah...kinda like passing on the tradition."Monarch, Prince, King are not just the Western concepts. They exist all around the globe and are rightly considered anachronisms."--I did not mean that they are only western concepts. What I refered to was the characteristics and positions are different. The Persian King (shah) was not a religious king. The British King/Queen was. The Rajahs of India were rulers..not religious rulers as well. "The hadith you quoted does not refer to Imam Hasan as Amir but Prophet is referring to Ali as Amirul Mumineen."---See my explaination above."Shahzada is explicit and very royal. Sayedna's sons are indeed royalty and expect the same level of pomp and undeserved accolade that monarchs the world over demand. Sayedna's treatment by Bohras is embarrassingly royal."---Based on what. Shahzada Malik al'Aster Bhaisahib in Houston is treated no different than the amil of the area. "What is to be made of structures like Rauda Tahira, a right royal tomb. This modern day pyramid is a testimony to Nimrud-like arrogance."---would you say the same of the tombs of the Prophet, Maulana Ali, Imam Husayn, Abbas Alamdar, Zaynab, etc. Raudat Tahera is small quba comparably.

Guest · #115

Dear Believer, "Payroll is a right, recieving donations is a privilege, so exactly what is your point ? A privlege has associated accountability. Very basic to me...and you ?"---The concept is basic...you just don't what the concept is though. Zakat and Khums are rights of the Imam stated by Allah. Imam Jafar Sadiq called it a purification of the giver's soul. "Well, without using 'Duh!", what is exactly your point ? You can't have it both ways."---Do you even read what you post? I made those statement and explained why. Both statement are in the negative. What is your point?ME: "Should he not correct this? If he is not in the know, should he not be?" YOU:"Pray tell me what you think the director of Al'Azhar makes a year??? ME:"Not enough to go to Safaris in Africa or travel to Europe, and the US with family & Daddy. "---None of statements refer to the other. What is your point in quoting them. I would remind you that those trips to the US and Europe are paid by the Jamat calling Sayedna there...not by Sayedna. Maybe you didn't figure that in.YOU:Do you know how this money is actually used? No. So why do you assume you do?""I don't assume anything, the proof is in the pudding. Please refer to the above."---refer to what above...you documented your opinion as authority..but you are not. Nothing you stated about related to the question I posed. You based your argument on assumed facts...facts that don't exist."OK, how about we start with his representative who can lead us to heaven ?"---Allah made the commandments of zakat and khums...how is the Dai to argue with you relating this?

Guest · #116

Dear qiyam and Kheran:Q.4: Why Syedna has asked all Bohras to pray two rakat of prayer for him after every Magrib/Isha prayer? [where "Namaz" can only be offered to Allah almighty no one else]Your answer: As the leader of the bohras and the love they have for him..they perform this voluntary salat to Allah for him; much as you would do for your parents.Comment: Can you support your answer with the Sunnah of Our holly prophet {PBUH} or any verse from Quran which can endorse this dogma. No wonder tomorrow we will see more names in this list.Q.5: When Shariah has clearly defined the use of Zakat, how Syedna and his family can use this money?Your answer: Do you know how this money is actually used? No. So why do you assume you do?Comment: Do the present state of our community's affairs reflects that this money is duely spent where it should be? Q.6: Why Bohras have to perform Matam after every prayer?Your Answer: It is not required. It is a method of remembering Imam Husayn after the salat.Comment: What is important? To follow the Sunnah of Imam Husain OR to merely beating chest and raising the slogan of Ya Husain time and time again! I wish we should have followed the Sunnah of Imam Husain rather than performing these mere rituals.

Guest · #117

Dear Sajid, Your Comment to Q4: Can you support your answer with the Sunnah of Our holy prophet {PBUH} or any verse from Quran which can endorse this dogma.---The Prophet has said anyone that my ziyarat, even from far away, I will give them my salams and make dua to Allah for them. The Prophet recommended us to do voluntary salats of forgiveness, for our parents, for our children, etc. for good their good health. The salat we perform for the Prophet is taken as a wasilah of the Prophet...thus we are making a dua to Allah through the Prophet. We are infact doing the same in the salat done for the Dai.Your comment to Q5: Do the present state of our community's affairs reflects that this money is duely spent where it should be?---You have inadvertantly miscontrued my statement. I meant as I responded in other to posts that the money is the right of the Dai and his to do as he wishes. It is not community trust or a fund, as you have assumed. It is not our place to tell the Dai how to spend his money. Your comment to Q6: What is important? To follow the Sunnah of Imam Husain OR to merely beating chest and raising the slogan of Ya Husain time and time again! I wish we should have followed the Sunnah of Imam Husain rather than performing these mere rituals.---to follow the sunnah as prescribed by every Imam..including Imam Husayn. The sunnah of Imam Jafar Sadiq was to do matam every day after salat and reflect on the life of Imam Husayn. You cannot do one and not the other.

Guest · #118

Br Qiyam Do you even know these Saudis Wahhabis? Did you know these Saudi were illiterates and common thieves (very much like the khotars) before oil boom. These Saudis massacre hundreds and thousands of people to capture Hijaz and name the whole territory Saudi Arabic. Saudis brought their kingly title from British Government back in 1930s. They even had someone write their genealogy so they could be Prophet descendent.Arabs do not call their chief Amir but sheikhs. Stop this nonsense now and try to educate yourself. You are highly ignorant and foolish. qiyam posted 09-25-2002 12:12 PM ET (US) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jinx and Porus, I don't have the access to that particular hadith in arabic. I quoted it direct and did not translate it myself. Based on it the word amir was used. I would remind you and Br. Porus..that amir doesn't mean leader a majority of the time, but in fact is used a prince. The sons of king Fahd in Saudi are called amirs.

Guest · #119

Brother Qiyam,"duh!" means that you are now making absolutely no sense, so there is no point in continuing the discussion. I wanted to participate in an intelligent discussion not an idiotic one.

Guest · #120

> Comment: Can you support your answer with the Sunnah of Our holly prophet {PBUH} or any verse from Quran which can endorse this dogma. No wonder tomorrow we will see more names in this list. sajid, I don't understand what it is you find objectionable about praying for someone. Do you feel that intercession on anyone's behalf is not permissible? If not, I don't see any difference between praying for one's friend, brother, parent, dai, or prophet. It is all in the niyat, and ultimately, only God can decide to grant your request. Is the supplication made in prayer any different in principle from such phrases as salwatullah alaihe or radiullaho anhum, which all Muslims use routinely? salaams

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Where do they get these Amil Sahebs

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