Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Asalaamo Alaikum Warahmatullahi Waberakatuh Brothers and Sisters in Islam

For Allah to coerse a person divests them of their dignity.

Humans in the norm are naturally curious and social creatures. Without interactions, intellectual and physical stimuli, we would go into a state of atrophy, as can be seen by the cases of e.g. the Romanian orphans kept monstrously in orphanages'.

consulting works such as 'Maslow's Hierarchy of needs' makes one aware of Human needs, forefillments and subsequent mental and physical well-being. And here is where one can begin their understanding of God, if one wishes initially to negate religion.

There is also the 'sinister' side to Humans. The greed, jealosy, hunger for power, excessive rivenge, the sometimes ugly result of ones' need to be in authority.

Then theres the Hierarchy of needs as is broadly narrated below:

*Body Needs -medical, emergency, rescue, coping
*Security Needs -safety planning, food supplies, *shelter requirements, emergency supplies
*Social -social self help, finding love, how to
escape bad feelings and alienation, how to
achieve a sense of belonging
*Ego -ego self help, finding healthy pride,
direction, empowerment in business
*Self Actualization -books that give direction
and meaning, supplemented by unique books on
hobbies, politics, science, psychology

Leaving religion aside for a second, How does one achieve all these needs?

Also, another need perhaps not illustrated clearly, is the need to protect and secure the majority of ones off-spring. An instinct highly tuned across the majority of species including ours.

How does one insure this?

In order to achieve the progressive levels of needs and then subsequent forefillment (mental and physical) A whole host of species, have found a common route. Forming interactions with people to work in synergy, collectively sharing material and immaterial values/goods. These interactions form communities, which subsequently form societies.

Now taking into account that Humans are individuals (have variation in thought, reasoning, understanding and behaviours) one needs to regulate these societies in order to create harmony, to prevent distruction, and an eventual denial of the forefillment of ones needs.

So i pose another question- How does on regulate?

We are fortunate in that we live in a time when a large majority of systems and ideaologies have been born, seeded and the fruits been seen.

And what has this shown us?
To me it has amounted, broadly speaking of 4 broad systems.
* Marx'ism -leading to communism
* Capitalism
* Anarchy
* Religion

Now i ask you, which of these is the most plausible? The most just? The one that can stand the test of time?

Marx-ism-

A system that has been shown to fail in Russia, China, North Korea, Quba.....
Why has it failed?
Going back to Hierarchy of needs, and a persons sinister side. This system has led to oppression, dictatorship, crimes of a horrific scale, impoverishment etc. One only has to read what was said in the 20th annual conference in Russia, Lennin was declared a dictator wo commited many crimes. Over-inflatted food prices, mass death due to starvation etc. And another important point, quintessential to Marx-ism, an individual has no possession. The state owns everything, total equality. Then going back to Hierarchy of needs, this does not forefill ones desires, this is innately unjust.

Capitalism-

A system which prospers on the oppression of the third world. A few well off elite,
governing the masses. The masses have eventually revolted as is seen in many cases in
history, ask yourself why? Injustice again. In this system, democracy is key, yet this is an oxymoron. As is seen throughout history, and currently, there is no real sense of the word democracy. I don't even need to justify this. A most basic example, when elections come up, what do the polititions do? They stay clear of campaigns that may jeapordise their seat, even though it may be in the best interests of their constituents. And industries escalating in wealth, yield political power, too big to be de-monopolised.

Anarchy-

Need i comment!

so what is left, by the process of elimination.

Religion - subhanAllah.

Here Insha allah i shall leave it for now, because this area is collosal in size. It can be proven through metaphysics, philosophy, the science of the Quran, which incidentally provides its own falsification test, which for 1400+ years no Aethist, Agnostic or proponent of any other faith as been able to find justified evidence for. what extraordinary genious!

The problems seen in religion lie not in the actual dogma, but in a persons corruption of that dogma in order to forefill their 'sinister side', the need to feel important and the lack of knowledge and especially wisdom that is needed when applying laws. Islam is a multi-faceted intertwinned religion. Dilute the religion by removing some of these facets and then sometimes extreme scenarios are created causing sometimes even extremer repurcussions.

Islam is the middle path, not extremist in the laws as to deny a person their needs, and not
as liberal as say Hedonism, to allow moral and social decay and eventual stagnation.

In Islamic rulings one needs to apply wisdom and even consider the greater of the two evils.

There is also patience, perseverence and tolerance, towards both Muslims and Non-Muslims.

I know to break down society in this way may seem a bit to abstract and academic, but read the events of the past civilisations. See at what point in their cultural, moral, political
stage did they become destroyed or destroy themselves. History in replete with examples, and we have to look at the much broader aspect and come out of just looking at our own lives in the context of a few years to see the reality.

Insha Allah i shall end here, please note that i am no scholar or learned person, so what i say is from myself and if my message conveys a meaning other than that portrayed by the true Islam, i ask forgiveness from Allah, and please feel free to correct any error.

Wasalaamo Alaikum Warahmatullahi waberakatuh

You've got things muddled up. Marxism and capitalism are economic systems having nothing to do with religion. Anarchy is just absence of a system. And you forgot about the wonderful things like cutting hands for theft, stoning people to death, whipping women for not wearing the right clothes, killing people for writing books, etc that come with religion.

-N

Asalaam Nausicaa

Please read my message again, humans are compelled into forming of systems like Marxism and Capitalism in order to bring about a system in which one can forefill their needs. But these systems fail us, the news is repleet with evidence for this.

I'm trying to point out that Islam is an belief system, a political system, an economic system, a social system etc, all intertwined.

In order to cut the hand of a thief, they must NOT be steeling out of need and MUST NOT be mentally ILL. Have you ever been robbed? Islam is the middle path, by preventing over-agressive retaliation, and on the other side, providing security to law abiding citizens.

I cannot comment on stoning until i know of the criteria one has to apply before it is applied. But I do know that for an adulterer, 4 eye-witnesses have to testify, as one of the pre-requesties for stoning. And stoning is only applicable, under strict criteria e.g. a man who fornicates can only be stoned if there are 4 witnesses who saw the act, or he testifies four times to commiting the act himself, and the man is already married, and mentally sane.

Whipping women for not wearing of the hijaab is not permitted in Islam.

Killing academics for writting books is also not permitted in Islam. Academic debate is most essential.

As for what happens in so-called 'Islamic' countries, they do not apply the Sharia, but their own cultural interpretation.

And i ask you Bro/Sis, we need laws to govern ourselves or there would be anarchy. due to the nature of 'man' we need punishments in order to enforce the laws.

Laws by themselves can NEVER work, thats why they fail in 'Islamic' countries of today. Islam is a multi-facetted intertwined discipline. The love and fear of God, together with knowledge, combined with ones needs being met, in the whole prevents crime.

In the world of today, how many times do we see one law for the elite, and another for the proliterian. True Islam does away with this. No one can make the laws, NO ONE. The laws are already defined by Allah, so no one can be above them, and all must comply. This brings about a state of harmony, since laws are not changing from one generation to the next, as is seen today.

Also the Sharia has to be applied with wisdom. If a people do not want Islam, then so be it, that is between them and Allah.

There are millions of Muslims today who yearn to live in an truely Islamic country, so it will naturely be their choice in accepting the laws.

True Islam helps the needy not to be forced into crime, e.g. Imaam Ali alaihis salaam, when he was the Caliph, payed from the state monies, that a young man be married, so that he does not commit sin.

lastly, If you deny Islam then how do you justify the miricles of the Quran??? Where are they from if not from Allah?

Hope to hear from you soon, Wasalaam

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yasin:
Asalaam Nausicaa

Please read my message again, humans are compelled into forming of systems like Marxism and Capitalism in order to bring about a system in which one can forefill their needs. But these systems fail us, the news is repleet with evidence for this.


I agree with this. Neither capitalism nor marxism is perfect. Any system that governs a large number of people will have shortcomings. This will be especially true if the population is heterogenous.


I'm trying to point out that Islam is an belief system, a political system, an economic system, a social system etc, all intertwined.


I agree. Islam is fairly totalitarian.


In order to cut the hand of a thief, they must NOT be steeling out of need and MUST NOT be mentally ILL. Have you ever been robbed? Islam is the middle path, by preventing over-agressive retaliation, and on the other side, providing security to law abiding citizens.


I have been robbed, I still consider cutting off someone's hands as cruel and barbaric.


I cannot comment on stoning until i know of the criteria one has to apply before it is applied. But I do know that for an adulterer, 4 eye-witnesses have to testify, as one of the pre-requesties for stoning. And stoning is only applicable, under strict criteria e.g. a man who fornicates can only be stoned if there are 4 witnesses who saw the act, or he testifies four times to commiting the act himself, and the man is already married, and mentally sane.


Adultery is a breach of trust between a two married people. I do not see why the rest of society should get involved in it unless requested. And fornication is completely victimless, why do people get their panties in such a bunch over it? If you don't want to do it, don't do it, why do you have to bother those who want to?


Whipping women for not wearing of the hijaab is not permitted in Islam.

Both Iran and Saudi Arabia (and Afghanistan under the Taliban) have this. And they all claim to rule by the Sharia.


Killing academics for writting books is also not permitted in Islam. Academic debate is most essential.

Tell that to Salman Rushdie or Taslima Nasreen.


As for what happens in so-called 'Islamic' countries, they do not apply the Sharia, but their own cultural interpretation.

In the end its all cultural interpretation. You are just saying that your interpretation is superior to their interpretation.

And i ask you Bro/Sis, we need laws to govern ourselves or there would be anarchy. due to the nature of 'man' we need punishments in order to enforce the laws.

I agree with this. I just don't agree that Sharia is the best possible way to go about it. I am a BRO, btw.

Laws by themselves can NEVER work, thats why they fail in 'Islamic' countries of today. Islam is a multi-facetted intertwined discipline. The love and fear of God, together with knowledge, combined with ones needs being met, in the whole prevents crime.

'Love' and fear of God often leads to societies like the Taliban.


In the world of today, how many times do we see one law for the elite, and another for the proliterian. True Islam does away with this. No one can make the laws, NO ONE. The laws are already defined by Allah, so no one can be above them, and all must comply. This brings about a state of harmony, since laws are not changing from one generation to the next, as is seen today.

This is what I find the most dangerous of all. Claiming that laws fit for a society in the 7th century are also fit for a society in 21st century. We have lots of things now that weren't even imaginable then. Laws like women cannot travel without a male escort are clearly out of time.

Also the Sharia has to be applied with wisdom. If a people do not want Islam, then so be it, that is between them and Allah.

This is really broadminded of you. Unfortunately no muslim societies of today allow this.

lastly, If you deny Islam then how do you justify the miricles of the Quran??? Where are they from if not from Allah?

Which miracles are you talking about? What about all the places where Quran got it wrong?

Salam,

-N

Asalaamo Alaikum Bro,

There are so many points to discuss, that I will only due to shortness of time discuss a few, Insha Allah.

“I have been robbed, I still consider cutting off someone's hands as cruel and barbaric.”

To your above quote I provide not the Shia view-point (for I do not know it as yet!) but the Hanifah view point in a book entitled: Imam abu hanifah, life and work. By Hadi Hussain, English translation of Allamah Shibli Nu’msni’n ‘Sirat-I-num’man.’

Thefts which according to Abu hanifah are NOT punishable with the cutting off of the right hand:

· Theft of an article valued at less than an ashrafi
· A theft committed jointly by a number of persons
· A theft committed by a non-adult
· Theft of a shroud
· Theft of a wife’s or a husbands goods
· Theft of a father’s goods
· Theft of the goods of a near relation e.g. a nephew or a brother
· A theft committed by refusing to return a thing taken on loan
· When the thief becomes the owner of the thing stolen by subsequent gift or purchase
· Thefts committed by followers of other religions living under Muslim protection
· Theft of a copy of the Qur’an
· Theft of wood or other perishable goods

”Adultery is a breach of trust between a two married people. I do not see why the rest of society should get involved in it unless requested. And fornication is completely victimless, why do people get their panties in such a bunch over it? If you don't want to do it, don't do it, why do you have to bother those who want to?”

victimless??? That is a rather narrow view point neglecting a families unity and solidarity. And Bro, please only make statements where you have evidence to back them up. One cannot suppose Sharia out of ignorance, and then claim it is a weak rule of governance. I do not wish to be critical of you, for I am weak enough myself. Do you have any evidence? I will try Insha Allah to get you more evidence in time, but from my own conjecture, I believe in once hearing that the society is requested to get involved (by the parties affected, e.g the woman or the husband who has been cheated on) before stoning can take place. And Allah knows best.

”Both Iran and Saudi Arabia (and Afghanistan under the Taliban) have this [whipping of women not wearing Hijaab]. And they all claim to rule by the Sharia.

Saudi also has kingship (against Sharia) and more violations of sharia than I can narrate, please don’t use kufar as an example of Islam. And the Taliban, do you have evidence to back up what you say? I do not know of the state of the people before the Taliban or after the Taliban. Nor do I know of the short term or long term goals of the Taliban. What I do know is that when they came into power, believe it or not, the women felt A LOT safer, for their condition under the rule of the Northern alliance was horrific. Maybe they banned women from attending school until they managed to get a grip of the violent crime against women, and perhaps then their long- term goal was to educate the women in a safe environment free from the perverse and backward cultural tendencies of those people. Either way I do not condemn or condone them until I have seen the evidence myself.

“Tell that to Salman Rushdie or Taslima Nasreen.”

If I pay a Shaikh $1000 dolars for a fatwa, will you be foolish enough to reject Islam on those grounds? As I said before, Islam has to be applied with Hikma (wisdom), patience and endurance.

”In the end its all cultural interpretation. You are just saying that your interpretation is superior to their interpretation.”

Some violations of Sharia are so apparent that this argument cannot hold.

”'Love' and fear of God often leads to societies like the Taliban.”

Please provide me your evidence of past civilisations and societies were this is true?? And if you cannot substantiate your arguments with sound evidence, then I don’t understand how it can be considered a viable argument? Please explain this to me? It is in-fact the opposite to what you say. The Qur’an tells us to reflect on past civilizations, and we see in many cases that when the people start to forsake God, then things go down hill. Look as recently as the humiliation of our own people. Why does this happen?? Because no more do we live and fight for Islam, but for money, power, land etc.

”This is what I find the most dangerous of all. Claiming that laws fit for a society in the 7th century are also fit for a society in 21st century. We have lots of things now that weren't even imaginable then. Laws like women cannot travel without a male escort are clearly out of time.”

Forgive me Brother, for I mean no offence. But where is your evidence?? Islam has a great deal of plasticity in its laws. If this wasn’t the case then how could (a most basic of examples) cars and traffic lights be permitted, and all the laws that govern driving?

And the issue of women not being able to travel alone??? Where is your evidence? Under a true system of Islam, where there is security, a woman is permitted to travel without a male escort, just like a man is permitted. But I need to check that this is the case, Insha Allah if you want this point clarifying I can try and get the evidence.


”Which miracles are you talking about? What about all the places where Quran got it wrong?”

This statement above all intrigues me the most. Please give me some evidence, e.g. internet sites, book titles and authors, organisations, etc that highlight “all the places where the Qur’an gets it wrong”

As for the sciences, this is such a vast area, I do not have the ability even begin to go into this, it is out of my league. But below I can give you a start into reding it for yourself. This is just a few of things I have come across that I can remember, go into any Islamic book shop, or search around on-line, and you will, Insha Allah, come across a whole lot more. If you cannot get the books I list below, then if you are genuinely interested, maybe I an try and find copies of them, and forward them to you?? You will have to give me a bit of time though, Insha Allah.

Book: The Bible the Qur’an and science. The holy scriptures examined un the light of modern knowledge. Author: Dr Maurice Bucaille
****A very well known author***** This book briefly covers the old testament, the gospels, and science in the Qur’an.

Book: God arises, evidence of God in nature and in science.
Author: Maulana wahiduddin khan, translated by Dr Farida khanam. Publisher: Darul-Ishaat, Urdu bazaar, Karachi-1, Pakistan.
This book is really good at explaining Islam from the view point of natural sciences, such as sociology and psychology. It also has many really fascinating arguments one such being evidence against the theory of evolution. A short, yet most powerful argument.

Book: 130 evident miracles of the Holy Qur’an Author: Dr Mazhar u. kazi

This book in very brief highlights some of the most (in my view) compelling verses of the Holy Qur’an. These verses narrate scientific accuracies, ranging from Biology, Physics, geology, ecology, to events that were going to happen, to events that unknown until recent historians have happened, etc.

Also please refer to the following web-site that I find useful:

http://www.harunyahya.com/ amazing lectures on miracles to view online in audio, video, and written form. Very well made with lots of colour and sound. And nicely explained, with quality picture and sound clarity.

http://www.islamway.com/ In particular the speakers Abu Raheem Green and Gary Miller.

If I can add just one final point. The Jews who are notorious for their hatred towards Muslims, ask their own scholars, To what period in your history do you refer to as your golden age??????
Their very own answer is that when the Muslims ruled them for 1000 years- Alhmadulillah. Jews in the land of the Muslims, under Muslim law and order and protection, regarded this period in their history, out of all other periods, their Golden age.

Read the events of the crusades. The Christians in Palestine were against the invasions. They knew, and history bears witness to this, that once the Christians came into power, they killed their own people. Demolished the original Monotheistic churches in favour of their Romanised Christianity of the trinity.

Wasalaamo alaikum Warahmatullahi Waberakatuh Akhi

Yasin,
I read your previous posts. Your comments were just comic. As far as evidence is concerned why did not you and your family went to Afghanistan under Talibaan rule!! The you should have asked your wife(if u r married) then about the safety!!!

I could not understand what you were trying to prove by quoting Hanifa(Whoever he is!!).Mutilating limbs for thefts is still abhorring.

As far as having multiple sexual partners in mutually consenting adults is concerned ,why do third parties get involved?Wether it is morally correct or not, leave it to their judgment!!And tell me what is marriage? A contract between two consenting adults to have sex legally. Now Islam permits 4 marriages . May be there are ample checks etc but still don't these sex starved sheikhs have multiple partners? Actualy it is these Arabs which are most notorious for paedophilic tendencies.The flesh trade involving minors flourishes in India bcoz of these Islamic republics.In Iran I believe there is a law which allows to have a one night "nikaah" and this they do it to prevent prostitution and adultery!!!!.What is this farce?

What silly statements you made about miracles!!You were still quoting from some scriptrures. Still Where is the proof ?!!! Show me one angel ?Show me one Jinn and all rubbish mentioned in books? You are asking info about sites which mention Quran ,Bibile going wrong. Are you such a moron that you really need it?

Yasin,

Islam is a multi-facetted intertwined discipline. The love and fear of God, together with knowledge, combined with ones needs being met, in the whole prevents crime.

Islamic countries have the love and fear of God, where is the knowledge, and where are the needs being met ? Can you refer us to this Islamic Utopia you speak of ? Name just one country....

Get real ......

asif,

Did you see the movie Michael? John Travolta was an angel.

Also if you saw Aladdin, Robin Williams was the voice of the Genie.

Grow up asif and stop asking silly questions.

Anajmi,
I have grown up and matured in real world but still a kid in your virtual/fairytale world so I am not aware of what all exists and what not in your world where you have become a mature hallucinating adult

Asalaamo Alaikum Warahmatullahi Waberakatuh

If you are so sure of your position, then please view these sites, I have just found. Then deny the authenticity of the Qur’an. If you are genuine in your cause for the truth then read and comment based on knowledge. Idle slander is the product of confused unsubstantiated conjecture.

http://www.it-is-truth.org/CreationOfMan.shtml

Please read some of the articles under the heading of ‘contents’ on the left hand side of this web-site.

http://www.beconvinced.com/SCIENCEINDEX ... 20IN%20THE

http://www.islamic.org.uk/trickys.html

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=596

Wasalaamo Alaikum Warahmatullahi Waberakatuh

Nausicaa, Asif, Godbless

Asalaamo Alaikum

Have you had time to read/listen and contemplate the links i have posted? Where else can such a divine book be from, if its not from Allah?

Nausicaa, i posted the sunni criteria for permissability to chop the hand to show you that under only exceptional circumstances can this be possible. Do you not see that. And i further ask you, any form of punishment, whether execution as in the USA, or incarceration etc is a form of cruelty. But without such punishments, then where is the restrain to prevent people running riot and creating an anarchist state?
Where is the justice for grieving victims and/or relatives?

How many times have we seen on the news of criminals not brought to justice, and mobs forming, to carry out their own justice. This injustice breeds another, and mob mentality harms innocent victims in the name of justice and revenge. A system to control high levels of emotion and provide some sort of compensation, whether revenge or monitary is needed for the protection of innocents and society as a whole. Do you have a better solution?

And have you looked up the criteria/circumstances/permissability pertaining to stoning, and if not, then how can you hold a view based on ignorance and conjecture?

Can all of us please stop using harsh language to try and prove points, this is only a product of a weak arguement.

And also to the people who insult the final Prophet Mohammad may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, please refrain from such acts of vulgarity. He is more sacred to us than our own Mothers and Fathers.
And before you use that as an arguement, He may peace and blessings be upon him, stressed on many occassions the duty one has to their parents.

Wasalaamo Alaikum Warahmatullahi Waberakatuh

asif,

As I said, you need to grow up. We are both living in the same world. You choose not to believe in what 95% of the world believes in.

The people believe because they have faith. But as I said you will need to grow up to understand the difference, but since you think you are in a different world, I guess that will never happen.

> The problems seen in religion lie not in the actual dogma, but in a persons corruption of that dogma in order to forefill their 'sinister side',

yasin,

I think your argument falls apart if it depends on this sort of logic. This statement can be applied to any of the other ideologies you mentioned -- essentially, what you are saying is that because people are imperfect, their practice of religion is imperfect.

Communism, for instance, is in theory a perfectly egalitarian society where class oppression does not exist.

You must first establish why perfect people cannot implement a perfect democracy, capitalist state, etc., before you can make this sort of claim with any validity.

salaam