Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

[anajmi]

I'll rephrase: Daim ul Islam is an authority on Islam for the DAWOODI BOHRAS.

I agree with that 100%. That is the reason why DAWOODI BOHRAS are a deviant sect of Islam mired in idol worship and unable to trace much of what it says back to the prophet (saw).

[profastian]

I'll rephrase: Daim ul Islam is an authority on Islam for the DAWOODI BOHRAS.

I agree with that 100%. That is the reason why DAWOODI BOHRAS are a deviant sect of Islam mired in idol worship and unable to trace much of what it says back to the prophet (saw).

wahabi mulla ki dum terhi ki terhi

[SBM]

@ SBM - In reference to all your comments, you don't seem to want to be a Dawoodi Bohra. Which sect of Islam and Fiqh do you follow?

Adam
The difference between you and me is that you want to label people and you want everyone to in one box while I play outside the box. I think West has done enough damage by dividing Muslim Ummah by labeling them as Shia and Sunni and now you are going a step further by asking whether I am DB or not, Some of the members from both side of spectrum know me well and know where I stand.
It was Br. Aqs who said reform can be brought by staying inside so I am going to leave it your hidden Ilm which you receive in those secret Sabaks to figure out about me. The way things are going I am not sure I may be DB for too long.

[anajmi]

dawoodi bohri ki garden jhukeli ki jhukeli.

[porus]

Religious beliefs are beliefs of specific people adopted by others.

For example, Islam is a set of beliefs of Muhammad as narrated in the Quran and Sunna. Since there is a lot of disagreement on their interpretations, unthinking people follow interpretations of specific people. These are handed down from generation to generation and result in sects. These interpretations are new religions.

Specifically, religion of abdes is best described as Dai-ism or Daism for short. and abde is best described as Dai-ist or Daist for short. A fundamental characteristic of Daism is that the word of Dai is true no matter what.

There has been some discussion on this board about the voices that Mansoos heard from the grave of his brother who claimed he was in the presence of Panjatan. Daist believed. I now hear that in some districts Daists are saying it was all a hoax and Dais will now believe that.

In discussions with Adam on female circumcision, I advisedly raised the issue of Istibra, the right of a male to sexually abuse his slave, condoned by Muhammad and Ali in Daimul Islam. Adam remained silent on this issue but stated that it is part of the eternal Shariat of Muhammad. And, as such, presumably it should be observed by Daists.

The point is that beliefs are arbitrary and can be challenged. That does not make a challenger a non-Dawoodi Bohra. It may make him forgo Daism. That would be a good thing. Dawoodi Bohras include Daists and, I believe, that they are in a minority.

A Daist has one characteristic. He just wants to know if you accept Dais' word as completely true, no ifs and no buts. If not, he would not engage in any discussion with you. If you contradict or question him, he will simply say that 'You are wrong' and that is that. End of disussion.

[Al Zulfiqar]

so i see that adam has resurrected himself after having been earlier crucified for his nonsensical beliefs and opinions which are totally contradictory to islam and even common-sense.

now let us examine and blast some of his apocryphal statements:

1. the daimul islam is sacrosanct for bohras, esp the abdesyednas. is that so? then why arent the die-hard abdes not paying attention to the daim's clear instructions and over a 100 parameters on how a dai is to be chosen and what should be the principles of his conduct, behaviour and solemn duties? nowhere in the daim is it mentioned a dai is infallible or 'masoom'? if he was, why specify the parameters for a dai?
2. where in the daim is it mentioned that forever going forward the dai's post is going to be dynastical? in fact, it states the opposite, that only the best among the mumin in character and as per the parameters mentioned, will be chosen and appointed.
3. all this bull crap about sharia being eternal is an abysmal ignorance of islam and its prophet. the quran is supposed to be eternal, not its umpteen interpretations by fallible humans over the past 14 centuries who have twisted it for their own vested interests, a la crooks like the last 2 syednas.
4. the insistence of this zealot adam in every post to make his posts in green and demand to know the belief positions of everyone he 'condescends to address', is nothing but the pathetic defensive tactic of a coward who knows he has been cornered. as everyone on this forum has countered, he can take his green posts and shove them, i consider him a don quixote living in cuckoo land tilting at windmills. completely off his rocker and empty in his noggin.
5. without understanding ali's intent and instructions on circumcision, this idiot continues to flog a dead horse and go out on the rampage to deprive bohra and muslim women of their sexuality - a typical male chauvinist of the porcine species.

[sixfeetunder]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but can anyone tell me if female circumcision is practised by any other Muslim sect/group who justify it from ahadith?

[Muslim First]

Br 6'U
I googled "Muslim sect/group who justify FGM from ahadith" and found following links
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&h ... 24&bih=545

Read this
Religious views on female genital mutilation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ ... mutilation

There is more to read

Hanifi's in Indo Pak do not prectice FGM
None of my family or in ny town heard of FGM.

Wasalaam

[Adam]

@SMB

now you are going a step further by asking whether I am DB or not,

I didn't ask you if you were or weren't. In my humble opinion, I don't think you are. BUT, coming to the point, I did ask you what your sources for your understanding of Islam and its Shariat are derived from. Which you avoided.
I asked you:

@ SBM - In reference to all your comments, you don't seem to want to be a Dawoodi Bohra. Which sect of Islam and Fiqh do you follow?

Sources? Books? People?

@PORUS, my dear friend

In discussions with Adam on female circumcision, I advisedly raised the issue of Istibra, the right of a male to sexually abuse his slave, condoned by Muhammad and Ali in Daimul Islam. Adam remained silent on this issue but stated that it is part of the eternal Shariat of Muhammad.

I'm sorry for remaining "silent", I didn't think it was a part of this topic, so I chose to avoid it. As, in the larger picture, all that really needs to be clarified is the DB base of their Fiqh on Fiqh Ahlil Bayt AS, and Fiqh Fatimi, which consists of the Daim al Islam playing a major role. (I know you don't accept the Daim al Islam, and you don't consider yourself a DB, but I was just clarifying whether the Proggies, out of their hate of DB faith, wanted to chuck the Daim ul Islam out of their sources as well. No PROGGY has defended the Daim al Islam as yet, especially in regard to this current issue. This is very interesting, as it brings us to a much broader picture about what the PROGGY establishment TRULY follows.

Sorry to go off track, coming back to Istibra'. You said

the issue of Istibra, the right of a male to sexually abuse his slave

.
I'm not sure where you came up with that idea from. I'm guessing you've misunderstood this law in Fiqh.
Firstly - According to The all ETERNAL Quran & Shariat, a Male can have intercourse with the following two:
1. Wife
2. Slave
Derived from the following Ayat:
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ * إِلَّا عَلَى أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ [المؤمنون:5
[23:5]
Who abstain from sex,
[23:6]
Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,

Secondly, Istibra' means. When one male owner sells his female slave to another owner. Just in case he has had intercourse with her (as allowed in the ayat), SHARI'AT keeps a SAFE PERIOD for which the second owner doesn't have intercourse with her, until he does ISTIBRA ie, waits for her to have her periods, to confirm she doesn't hold a child (from the first owner).

(P.S, according to the current political state, the concept of slaves doesn't exist. So this particular law is't practiced. BUT, in the future, if the concept of slavery (VERY long topic) is re-started, all the Shari'at laws in accordance to slaves shall be applied)

The SAME concept is in IDDAT for a divorcee. The Period given to a divorcee is 3 "quroo", ie a cycle for her periods, to make sure she isn't pregnant with her first husband.

I think you've misunderstood the entire ayat/fiqh law completely.

Also, a point worth noting. I'm not sure what you have against DB faith, or the Daim al Islam in particular, but just for your information, a majority of these LAWS of SHARIAT for example (Female Curcumcision, Istibra) are not mentioned in the DAIM alone, rather in MANY SUNNI AND SHIA sources of Fiqh. So when you attack a certain LAW, try attacking the LAW in itself. (The Law is an Islamic Law too).

What your said later on:

A Daist has one characteristic. He just wants to know if you accept Dais' word as completely true, no ifs and no buts. If not, he would not engage in any discussion with you. If you contradict or question him, he will simply say that 'You are wrong' and that is that. End of disussion.

That has NEVER been my intention, or way of discussing. (If that's what you've misunderstood, then I would apologize for my writing short comings, as it isn't my style.
My style, right from the beginning was getting to the core of the issue. The crux of the matter. Each person has a different view.
With the Proggies (who claim to be DBs), I question their view and understanding of DB faith and their sources, and from where/which ideas they want to divert away from.
With those who just hate the Syedna TUS and have nothing else to say, I have REPEATEDLY questioned the sources, authority of what they believe in. What sect they follow.
All this, only to answer a question according to the person.
But, till this date, (as far as I can remember) no one (except an Abde, including me) has clarified what they truely stand for and believe in, follow, or which sources.
From what I see, everyone has a jumbled up mix of thoughts of Islam, no real ideal way to follow. And judge Islam and it's thoughts, or DB beliefs and its thoughts according to their own yard stick, not the teachings of the "Correct ones" (who ever they may be)

@Al Zulfiqar
For your first few comments, please read my above post in BOLD, and reply.

the insistence of this zealot adam in every post to make his posts in green and demand to know the belief positions of everyone he 'condescends to address', is nothing but the pathetic defensive tactic of a coward who knows he has been cornered.

I just put it in GREEN, my own distinct colour. Firstly because of my initial request, (not many people would even remember that post) but since that didn't work out, I stuck to it, because I liked it it makes it easier for my to scroll to my posts and see who has answered. I'm sorry to blow your bubble.

5. without understanding ali's intent and instructions on circumcision, this idiot continues to flog a dead horse and go out on the rampage to deprive bohra and muslim women of their sexuality - a typical male chauvinist of the porcine species.

Please clarify IMAM Ali s AS intent on this subject, if you think it's supposed to mean anything else.
How I interpret it, in my humble opinion, is how the DB faith interprets this quote in Daim al Islam.

Does that mean you accept that there is THIS certain Kalaam of Imam ALI AS referring to Female Circumcision?
Do you consider the Daim a Source?

Woah, long post.

[profastian]

Adam, i think you really tickled dear porus by calling him an "egotistic philosopher" . The best he could come up with was "Daist"

Truth really does hurt. LOL

[anajmi]

Also, a point worth noting. I'm not sure what you have against DB faith, or the Daim al Islam in particular, but just for your information, a majority of these LAWS of SHARIAT for example (Female Curcumcision, Istibra) are not mentioned in the DAIM alone, rather in MANY SUNNI AND SHIA sources of Fiqh. So when you attack a certain LAW, try attacking the LAW in itself. (The Law is an Islamic Law too).

I seriously doubt you know what "LAW" means otherwise you wouldn't be posting these idiotic long posts which make one feel like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. This is not an Islamic Law. You are confused because you are uneducated like all abdes. Once they take the pain to educate themselves, they are no longer abdes. Not prostrating before another human is a LAW. FGM is not a LAW. Can you please cite your "MANNY SUNNI AND SHIA" sources that make FGM a law?

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

for all your green bravado - your posts are full of fantastical goobledegook akin to a green leprechaun - you dared not comment on my blasting your pathetic dependence on the daim ul islam as the 'source' of your beliefs, your bible. since you accept EVERYTHING in the daim as sacrosanct and to be followed to the letter, i ask you again why do you refuse to answer my question on the 100 parameters for a dai mentioned in it? where does it say that a dai is infallible and maasoom? and do not hide behind the argument that it is not germaine to the issue of this thread.

as for your pretense at not understanding the intent of ali, please read my lengthy post above where i have clearly spelt out what types of circumcisions there are and what ali has instructed in the light of his character and the true purpose of islam.

look, you can keep playing this game of clever semantics ad nauseum, but make no mistake, we have come to the conclusion long ago that you are a slimy snake who emulates what his masters practice, viz. deception, circular arguments and wily nimble-footing to hide the truth like dishonest politicians. the color you have chosen for penning your posts is appropriate, green for a poisonous snake.

[SBM]

@SMB

now you are going a step further by asking whether I am DB or not,


I didn't ask you if you were or weren't. In my humble opinion, I don't think you are.

Adam
Did you read my earlier post in which I said I am an E Jamaat carrying card and the way things are going I may not be a DB for too long
How do you suppose that I have a Valid E JAMAAT card and who am I now.
I have said so many times that I do not box myself in to one school of thought unlike you I do not have TUNNEL VISION.

[Al Zulfiqar]

bro sbm,

dont fall for that 'humble opinion' bull crap of adam. he actually comes across as a most arrogant, prejudiced, opinionated and holier-than-thou weasel, no different from his ringmasters...

[sixfeetunder]

Thankyou, MF. Also, can anyone please tell me on authoritarian grounds, whether the general practise among bohras is that of "slight 'trimming' of the tip of the clitoral hood - prepuce" or is it more than that? Also, the ladies who carry out the procedure are not qualified as such. Would they know what constitutes as 'trimming' or a 'deep swipe'?

Also, is there any evidence of Bohra women feeling lack of sexual desire or other problems due to FGM? If Bohra women on this forum do not mind sharing, since there is anonymity here, I would be greatly obliged.

[porus]

@PORUS, my dear friend

(I know you don't accept the Daim al Islam, and you don't consider yourself a DB, but I was just clarifying whether the Proggies, out of their hate of DB faith, wanted to chuck the Daim ul Islam out of their sources as well. No PROGGY has defended the Daim al Islam as yet, especially in regard to this current issue. This is very interesting, as it brings us to a much broader picture about what the PROGGY establishment TRULY follows.

Whether I accept Daimul Islam or consider myself a Bohra is irrelevant. I acknowledge that Daimul Islam is the reference for Fiqh for Dawoodi Bohras and hence question the relevance today of some of its contents. Like I stated previously, when irrelevancy stares them in the face, apologists tend to re-interpret the content or state that it does not currently apply. This applies to Quran too.

There is no monolithic Proggy organization. There are Proggies and several Proggy jamaats. I am sure they all accept Daimul Islam as a reference for Fiqh.

In the same chapter of Daimul Islam there is discussion of 'Istibra', a period in which a master cannot have sexual intercourse with his slave. The clear implication appears to be that a male slave-owner can thus ravage a girl he owns even if he is not married to her. Daimul Islam attributes this permission to both Prophet and Ali. We would not readily accept this today.

So you see, I am aware that 'Istibra' refers to a period of abstinence. I was pointing out that just as this is irrelevant now for Bohras, it would not be against Dawoodi Bohra faith to deem FGM as irrelevant too. (If I read Al Z's very educational post on page 1 of this thread, it would appear that in some cases, on medical considerations, clitoroplexy may be advisable but not blanket FGM being inflicted on all Bohra girls.)

Any sexual favor demanded of a woman by a man who considers her his property and to whom he is not married is sexual abuse in my definition. I am aware that Quran also implies that slavery of this kind is permissible. In that case modern scholars are attempting to re-interpret the relevant verses.

(P.S, according to the current political state, the concept of slaves doesn't exist. So this particular law is't practiced. BUT, in the future, if the concept of slavery (VERY long topic) is re-started, all the Shari'at laws in accordance to slaves shall be applied)

While what you stated here reinforces what I wrote above about irrelevancy of both slavery and FGM, I would go further and would not countenance ever having to re-instate slavery to the point of declaring war against those who demand its re-instatement. And it does not matter to me how many books apart from Daimul Islam condone these practices.

Finally, let us be clear on what an Islamic Law is. It would be primarily concerned with relations among Muslims. Those issues which address personal conduct are not necessarily Laws in that sense. Thus the seven pillars that Daimul Islam discusses are guides for personal conduct but not Laws breaking of which would invite judicial censure by social institutions. In this sense, insistence on performing FGM is not a Law which everyone has to abide by.

[anajmi]

Also, is there any evidence of Bohra women feeling lack of sexual desire or other problems due to FGM?

Since bohra women probably didn't get a chance to have sex before FGM (this is done at a very young age) they probably wouldn't be able to answer this question. We might need to know from a woman who has experienced sex before and after.

[anajmi]

I would go further and would not countenance ever having to re-instate slavery to the point of declaring war against those who demand its re-instatement.

Re-Instatement of slavery is probably not going to happen because the prophet (saw) has strictly prohibited the enslavement of a free-man (and we are all free unless we take other kinds of enslavement into consideration), unless he is a prisoner of war. But then treatments of prisoners of war as they are today, is much worst than how one would have to treat a slave as per Islamic rules.

Just like slavery in Islam is not a law, FGM is also not a law, but not prostrating in front in of someone is a law. For eg. I do not become any less of a muslim if I do not have a slave, but if I do, then I have to follow additional rules. Similarly, not performing FGM doesn't make anyone a less of a muslim, but if they do choose to do it for whatever reasons, then they have to follow certain rules. For not prostrating in front of someone, it is a law, you cannot prostrate in front of anybody irrespective of anything. This is not conditional that if the guy is with a bent neck you can prostrate in front of him. NO!!! NOT ALLOWED. Now that is what a law is.

[porus]

Good post, anajmi.

However, Islamic Law would govern relations between and among Muslims and non-Muslims who live under a Muslim Government.

[Al Zulfiqar]

We might need to know from a woman who has experienced sex before and after

this is well nigh impossible because khafz in bohra women is not carried out AFTER reaching the age of consent, unless a non-bohra woman has this carried out on conversion due to marriage, which again is a very rare occurence.

[sixfeetunder]

We might need to know from a woman who has experienced sex before and after

this is well nigh impossible because khafz in bohra women is not carried out AFTER reaching the age of consent, unless a non-bohra woman has this carried out on conversion due to marriage, which again is a very rare occurence.

This means that there is no verifiable data to show how much sexual desire or sexual enjoyment a woman might lose due to FGM. This makes FGM even more cruel because she would not even know what sexual fulfillment is! Its like cutting off the tongue of a new-born baby! The baby would never know what a spoken word is!

[Udaipuri]

@ SBM - In reference to all your comments, you don't seem to want to be a Dawoodi Bohra. Which sect of Islam and Fiqh do you follow?
Sources? Books? People?

Adam,
Take your source, books, authority, people and shove them!!!

[Adam]

@ANAJMI

FGM is not a LAW. Can you please cite your "MANNY SUNNI AND SHIA" sources that make FGM a law?

Female circumcision IS a LAW (hukum, farmaan) according to Dawoodi Bohra faith, it is a hukum by Mowlana Ali AS, as stated in the Daim ul Islam. I will post PORUS translation to that caption:

يا معشر النساء إذا خفضتن بناتكن فبقين من ذلك شيئا فإنه أنقى لألوانهن و أحظى لهن عند أزواجهن
"O womenfolk, if you cut (khafD) your daughters, then leave a part of it. For that would be more delightful and exciting for their husbands."
The actual words, attributed to Ali ibn Abi Talib, are:
أسرعوا بختان أولادكم فإنه أطهر لهم و قال لا تخفض الجارية قبل أن تبلغ سبع سنين
"Speed up circumcision of your children for it is purer for them and do not cut (khafD) the girl before she is seven years old."

So, it is a LAW, HUKUM, ORDER, FARMAN (whatever you like to call it), just like Male Circumcision is.

About the other sources, some examples:
Again, I REPEAT. Sunni or Shia beliefs and practices, whether "they" allow it is irrespective.
Dawoodi Bohras follow the Fiqh e Fatimi.

16 - ( باب انه لا بأس بخفض الجواري ، و آدابه ) [ 14872 ] 1 - القطب الراوندي في دعواته : عن الصادق ( عليه السلام ) ، انه قال : " الختان سنة في الرجال ، مكرمة للنساء "

[ 22170 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن عدة من أصحابنا ، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى ، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر ، عن هارون بن الجهم ، عن محمد بن مسلم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : لما هاجرت النساء إلى رسول الله ( صلّى الله عليه وآله ) هاجرت فيهن امرأة يقال لها : أم حبيب ، وكانت خافضة تخفض الجواري ، فلما رآها رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) قال لها : يا أم حبيب العمل الذي كان في يدك هو في يدك اليوم ؟ قالت : نعم يا رسول الله إلا أن يكون حراما فتنهاني عنه قال : بل حلال ، فادني مني حتى أعلمك ، قالت : فدنوت منه ، فقال : يا أم حبيب إذا أنت فعلت فلا تنهكي ولا تستأصلي وأشمي فإنه أشرق للوجه وأحظى عند الزوج . . . الحديث .
ورواه الشيخ بإسناده عن أحمد بن محمد مثله .

[ 22171 ] 2 ـ وعنهم ، عن سهل بن زياد ، عن علي بن أسباط ، عن خلف بن حماد ، عن عمرو بن ثابت ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : كانت امرأة يقال لها : أم طيبة تخفض الجواري ، فدعاها النبي ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) فقال لها : يا أمّ طيبة إذا خفضت فأشمي ولا تجحفي فإنه أصفى للون الوجه ، وأحظى عند البعل .
محمد بن الحسن بإسناده عن محمد بن يعقوب مثله .

قال الشهيد الثاني ( يستحب خفض الجواري والنساء وليس بواجب إجماعاً [ هل الإجماع على الاستحباب أو على نفي الوجوب , الأولى إرجاعه إلى الأخير مع عدم القرينة الخاصة ] روى عبد الله بن سنان عن الصادق – عليه السلام – قال : ختان الغلام من السنة , وخفض الجارية من السنة ) مسالك الأفهام 8 : 405 .

وقال ابن قدامة في كتاب الطهارة ( ويشرع الختان في حق النساء أيضاً , قال أبو عبد الله وحديث النبي – صلى الله عليه وآله – " إذا التقى الختانان وجب الغسل " فيه بيان أن النساء كن يختتن ) المغني 1 : 71 .

ورواية قطب الرواندي في لب اللباب ( ولم يبايع النبي – صلى الله عليه وآله – أحداً من النساء إلا مختونة ) مستدرك الوسائل ب 42 ح 4 .

@Al Zulfiqar

for all your green bravado - your posts are full of fantastical goobledegook akin to a green leprechaun - you dared not comment on my blasting your pathetic dependence on the daim ul islam as the 'source' of your beliefs, your bible. since you accept EVERYTHING in the daim as sacrosanct and to be followed to the letter, i ask you again why do you refuse to answer my question on the 100 parameters for a dai mentioned in it? where does it say that a dai is infallible and maasoom? and do not hide behind the argument that it is not germaine to the issue of this thread.

Haha! So much emotion.
Firstly, yes, we do consider Daim ul Islam and all other Fatimi sources, written by Fatimid Imams or under their guidance OUR sources, and we do "follow it to the letter". These are sources of DB belief, and they must be followed if you claim to be a DB. Since you don't want to follow these sources, may I ask you, (as I've asked a trillion times) which sources, authority, people do you follow for your understanding of Islam.
Why don't you PROGGIES EVER answer this? Scared? ANSWER THIS PLEASE

About the Dai being Masoom. (This definitely is OFF topic, rather, the authencity of Fatimid sources should be discussed in another thread, ie, do the PROGGYs base their beliefs on Fatimid Sources or not?).
I'm not addressing the Wahabis, DB haters and egotistic Philosophers, because, they don't claim to be Fatimi nor Ismaili, so why should they even want to refer to it!
The charachteristics of the Dai, mentioned in Daim, are correct, and we accept it all (as we except and follow everything Fatimid sources say).
These should be the charachter by a Dai in Zuhoor and Satr in general
However, it is important to mention, that although we DBs do follow everything in Daim ul Islam, not everything about DB faith is mentioned in it. There are many things relating to DB faith (history, Hikmah, Philosophy, Taweel, Constitution) that haven't been discussed in it as a subject, as the Daim ul Islam s subject is Islamic/Fatimi interpretation of Laws of Shariat.
So, about the roles/charachteristics Dai during the era of Zuhoor, and Satr and The "Ismah/Masoom" of the Dai of Satr, all have been discussed in other Fatimid Ismaili Dawoodi Bohra sources. For example Syedna Hatim RA and Syedi Lukmanjee QR
The Daim ul Islam is our main source for shariat and ahkaam. And other books for other subjects.
The Daim ul Islam is mentioned so easily SO many times as the first reference, because of the beauty and all encompassing it has been written (ie, a major part of a Mumins life has been discussed), but there is more to be learned from other books.

I hope that sheds some light on your question. And it is definitely off topic, so I request you to start a different post.

Plus, since you don't like Daim ul Islam, please state your sources, authority. ANSWER THIS PLEASE


You also said:

as for your pretense at not understanding the intent of ali, please read my lengthy post above where i have clearly spelt out what types of circumcisions there are and what ali has instructed in the light of his character and the true purpose of islam.

I read that post again, you describe the various methods, but haven't arrived at a "correct" method that Mowalana ALI AS actually meant. You just continued to chuck the whole thing out of the window by saying the following kind words:

now finally coming to islam. how can a religion which has throughout the quran and in the life and conduct of its prophet, enjoined equality betwen men and women in terms of piety, endeavour, modesty, work, rewards, punishment, justice, and all the other human values, inflict cruelty on one gender for the selfish interests of the other? the reasons why male circumcision is prescribed in islam is well-known. if health, hygeine and marital pleasure are prescribed for the male, would the females be prescribed its opposite? pain, cruelty and slavery? deprivation of all that is her right in beauty and delight by Allah? just so that she remain subservient and docile and open to abuse by male chauvinists as an object of sadistic pleasure? so she can remain captive and not experience the pleasures and therefore not ask for her rights in marriage?

Just to clarify
1. Do you accept KhafD as a hukum?
2. If Yes, how did Mowalana ALI SAW allow it and how should it be done the correct way?

ANSWER THIS PLEASE

About the whole Green Snake think, I feel I'm talking to nonsensical children! (I've heard "black" are poisonous too :p)
Don't reply to that.


@SBM

How do you suppose that I have a Valid E JAMAAT card and who am I now.
I have said so many times that I do not box myself in to one school of thought unlike you I do not have TUNNEL VISION.

What a shallow argument! I find it a bit pathetic to waste my time replying it. But for good sportsmanship, I will :p

Dawoodi Bohra is name of a sect that shares a common belief. (Its not limited to race, origin, location)
I know you aren't a Dawoodi Bohra, because you don't share this belief, thus you seize to exist one.
Just holding an Ejamaat card doesn't make you one. Simple as that.
The card is just to facilitate the community.
Some non Indians hold Indian PAN cards to get them a few benefits. It doesn't make them a justified Indian
(I know, mediocre example, but it had to be said in reply to a stupid comment!).
Since you don't "box yourself into one school of thought" other that the DB school of thought, that shows you aren't adhering to DB faith.
But, you're free to follow what ever you want, I'm just curious to know what that "school of thought" is? Its sources and authority? If you don't mind, please state them clearly. ANSWER THIS PLEASE

@ PORUS, my only decent Proggy "friend"

There is no monolithic Proggy organization. There are Proggies and several Proggy jamaats. I am sure they all accept Daimul Islam as a reference for Fiqh.

To shed light on how much "acceptance" the PROGGIES have for the Daim al Islam. Just for an example from this thread (there have been many such words said in other threads, but I haven't got around to collecting them).

ANAJMI

Daimul Islam is not an authority on Islam.

AL ZULFIQAR

1. the daimul islam is sacrosanct for bohras, esp the abdesyednas. is that so?

you dared not comment on my blasting your pathetic dependence on the daim ul islam as the 'source' of your beliefs, your bible. since you accept EVERYTHING in the daim as sacrosanct and to be followed to the letter

Daimul Islam attributes this permission to both Prophet and Ali. We would not readily accept this today.

What is interesting to see is, if these people claim to be PROGGIES, then they have shunned the Daim. And if they don't claim to be PROGGIES, they have shunned the Daim ul Islam, BUT, we don't see ANY counter argument by ANY PROGGY to defend the Daim. Not now, not before, and I don't expect them to do it in the future. Which would bring us to a very important point. What DO THE PROGGIES stand for or base their belief on!


You said later on:

Any sexual favor demanded of a woman by a man who considers her his property and to whom he is not married is sexual abuse in my definition. I am aware that Quran also implies that slavery of this kind is permissible. In that case modern scholars are attempting to re-interpret the relevant verses.

This highlights your "EGOTISTICAL SELF", you try to understand Islam in YOUR opinion. Which is incorrect. Islam is what the Quran and/or Rasulullaw & Ahlulbayt SAW have taught. Not what YOU think should be done and not done. If you disagree, or, if you want to call the shots, and feel you are better than the "system", please make a list of things in Islam you don't agree with. We'll try to take it up and consider it. Today KhafD, tomorrow RAJM, or QISAS. God knows what YOU may not agree on. I'm sorry, but it's not YOURS to decide or change.
If religion (Islam) it were left to the decisions of like minded people like yourself, it wouldn't be Islam the religion of Allah for the people, rather, it would be Islam the religion by the people thinking they know what's best for the people. (And there's a fat chance they could be wrong).

As stated above, the "modern scholars" of the Quran, may try to go about changing the rules of Islam entirely according to their own mediocre understanding. Importantly, who DARE give them the right to change or interpret it!? And remember two things. The Quran is explicit. And in most places, the practices of Rasulullah SAW and Ahlul Bayt SAW have been documented repeatedly. Therefore, the truth will remain un changed. As Allah states انا نحن نزلنا الذكر و انا له لحافظون (WE revealed the Zikr (Quran), and WE will protect it)
So good luck challenging Allah in trying to change it!

While what you stated here reinforces what I wrote above about irrelevancy of both slavery and FGM,

This is a perfect example of your INCORRECT DEDUCTION OF THEORIES.
This is called Sophistry (I'm sure an egotistic Philosopher like you would know that).
How can you connect the "irrelevancy of slavery" with the banning of "KHAFD"? They are two completely different things!! (I won't refer to it as FGM, because, according to us it isn't)
Let us examine:
SUBJECT CONCERNED = SLAVES (Not Present)
Irrelevancy of the LAWS of Slavery in Todays times, because there don't exist any system of slaves today. Thus, the whole law concerning slaves is deemed "un-practiced" or "irrelevant", BUT if slaves did come back onto the scene (according to the ways Islam allows it) these laws will be applicable again!

Coming to Women and KhafD.
SUBJECT CONCERNED = WOMEN (Present)
How can you make these practices and laws "irrelevant"? WOMEN STILL EXIST! THE "CONCEPT" of Women still exists!!!!
The only time you could actually consider Female Circumcision "irrelevant", in accordance to your justification are:
1. If there existed no more women on this planet (Just like the non existance of slaves right now). I can assure you there are women around.
OR
2. If by some cloning, genetically change, all the women today were born already circumcised.

Only then would the Law of Female Circumcision be "irrelevant".
WRONG DEDUCTION. And according to that, Female Circumcision, remains a HUKUM to be practiced under the guidance of Imam AliAS through Fiqh Ahlul Bayt/Fatimi AS .

I would go further and would not countenance ever having to re-instate slavery to the point of declaring war against those who demand its re-instatement. And it does not matter to ME how many books apart from Daimul Islam condone these practices.

Again, the situations and laws of Islam aren't yours to choose.
By saying all this, you're actually condemning Rasulullah SAW and Mowalana ALI AS for practicing slavery. (Yes, they did free many, but they also kept many in "slave-hood".
By saying all this, you're actually considering yourself a better judge of "Human values", and "modern thinking", than the Prophet SAW himself, who was sent as a Nabi for ALL mankind (for all ages).

You probably wish you were there to change it all according to how YOU would have thought it right.

Sorry for being rude. But coming to a positive thought. ALL these laws of Islam, for example, even slavery have reasons and a great philosophical thought behind it. Islam doesn't "love" to enslave. Rather it encourages "freeing" them. BUT what must be understood is that, slavery for those who got it (long discussion) must get it. And they did. The Prophet SAW and Ahlul Bayt AS practiced accordingly.

LONGER POST. Took a long time. But it had to be discussed ;p [/color]

[anajmi]

يا معشر النساء إذا خفضتن بناتكن فبقين من ذلك شيئا فإنه أنقى لألوانهن و أحظى لهن عند أزواجهن [GREEN]
"O womenfolk, if you cut (khafD) your daughters, then leave a part of it. For that would be more delightful and exciting for their husbands."[MORE GREEN]
The actual words, attributed to Ali ibn Abi Talib, are:[GREENER]
[EVEN MORE GREEN]أسرعوا بختان أولادكم فإنه أطهر لهم و قال لا تخفض الجارية قبل أن تبلغ سبع سنين
"Speed up circumcision of your children for it is purer for them and do not cut (khafD) the girl before she is seven years old."[GRRREEN]

Look at your own translation.

O womenfolk, if you cut (khafD) your daughters

Do you see the red in your green? That is the problem with people like you.

About the other sources, some examples:

Yeah, please post the translations and the references.

[Adam]

Look at your own translation.
O womenfolk, if you cut (khafD) your daughters
Do you see the red in your green? That is the problem with people like you.

About the other sources, some examples:

Yeah, please post the translations and the references.

Good observation, as mentioned, it isn't MY translation. It is PORUSs. And thanks for pointing out the ERROR in HIS translation.
اذا DOESN'T mean "IF". It means "WHEN". So it would go:
O Womenfold WHEN you cut (khafD) your daughters......

So, the point remains the same. KhafD is a LAW, HUKUM, FARMAN
Again, you don't believe in Imam Ali AS, or what he says, or what the DAIM ul Islam says. So why do you bother!

For the sources, they have been given, and the translation, you please get your "great scholars" to do it. It shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[anajmi]

SUBJECT CONCERNED = SLAVES (Not Present)
Irrelevancy of the LAWS of Slavery in Todays times, because there don't exist any system of slaves today.

That is an extremely idiotic statement to make, considering your level of education. According to your logic, if we were to stop the practice of FGM completely, then the laws governing it would become irrelevant right?

[anajmi]

For the sources, they have been given, and the translation, you please get your "great scholars" to do it. It shouldn't be too much of a problem

My great scholars have rejected your sources and their translations. So we are back to Daimul Islam. I think it is time to chuck this book out the window.

[Adam]

Are you done reading ANAJMI? Doesn't seem don't have anything maturely intelligent to say.
Daim ul Islam is supposedly the main book for your PROGGY friends. The wont be too happy.

For the sources, they have been given, and the translation, you please get your "great scholars" to do it. It shouldn't be too much of a problem

I was referring to the OTHER sources I quoted.

WHO ARE YOUR GREAT SCHOLARS who help you understand and translate? Name ONE please. Just ONE!!

[anajmi]

1. If there existed no more women on this planet (Just like the non existance of slaves right now). I can assure you there are women around.

You just hit rock bottom with the most idiotic statement ever made. Slaves do not exist, but men and women do, who were slaves. Slaves didn't become extinct, slavery did. Similarly, women do not have to become extinct to make FGM extinct. I feel like I am talking to a 4th standard back bencher.

[anajmi]

Name ONE please. Just ONE!!

Shaikh Maulana Najmuddin Ibn Badruddin Ibn Kamaruddin.

Jokes apart. My sources are the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). There is no FGM in the Quran and there is no FGM sanctioned by the prophet (saw). If Hazrat Ali (ra) made it a law, then either he is wrong, or someone else manipulated his words to enslave and oppress women.