The True Imam - How would you verify?

[progticide]

The Dai will verify the true Imam. Therefore we are trying to verify the true Dai. If we get through verifying the true Dai than there will be no problem in verifying the Imam as well. Mazoon and Mukasir will be witness in the process of verifying the Imam.

Hussain,
I have given you a detailed response on the PM.

However, consider this, and this is for all progressives:
You are saying that you "are trying to verify the true Dai". So in case, If you or any other progs(and all those who have already died in the last 40 years in the progressive side) die before having identified the true Dai (who is the face of the Imam during Imam's seclusion), it would be akin to dying without knowing the Imam of the time. Right?

Now, all the scholars from the progressive side on ismaili doctrine and Hadees, please tell everyone on this forum loudly and without mincing any words "What is the like of a person who dies without recognizing the Imam of his/her time?"

[humanbeing]

"What is the like of a person who dies without recognizing the Imam of his/her time?"

A pagan death !!

If this is the consequences of a person who die without recognizing the Imam of his / her time. Billion people lived and died not aware, ignorant or uninformed of Imam’s existence, leave alone denial ! Who will save them ?

If this is the doctrine, condition for safe living in life and life after, then it becomes imperative on Imam and his Dai to take all possible promotions to invite educate and spread word of Islam with this doctrine or warning.

Prophet Muhammad was chosen by Allah to spread word of Islam and he did a fabulous job of inviting, converting, debating people into Islam. So now as per the above mentioned bohra doctrine, Sayedna Saheb shall promote measures to spread word of Islam by debates, conferences, seminars, workshops, literature, authored books etc, This shall not be difficult as Sayedna saheb is very learned and very qualified to conduct lectures on Islam. However I m just a lowly commoner, this is my personal POV and suggestion a small query to his learned followers.


If Allah has bestowed such emphasis, power and authority on Imam of the times and further down to Dai, Then with power comes the responsibility.

[humanbeing]

I P C : Islamic Presentation Committee, is a non profit organization in Kuwait, which promotes, invites and assist any person irrespective of faith, religion, birth, color, gender, ethnicity with concept of Islam. This organization has printed books, brochures, leaflets etc presenting story of Islam in various language such as Hindi, Tamil, Gujarati, English, Urdu, French, Philipino, Arabic etc. Free of Cost.

They conduct workshops, seminars and lectures for better understanding of the faith.

Their Library offer free books on Islam
http://ipc.org.kw/english.php

[progticide]

Hussain Bhai,

Ask your friends Porus & Doctor Mubarak to answer the questions that I have raised above. Is this all what these great scholars of progressive block capable of mustering on the issue of verification of the true Imam when he makes an appearance finally?

Tell me what does the Ismaili Doctrine and Hadees say about those who have died in the last 40 years on the progressive side, while your scholars and genuises were trying to verify the true dai? We want to hear the progressive scholars speak out as per Hadees and Ismaili doctrine.

Their silence certainly speaks of their loss of words and justification for this movement.

[anajmi]

"What is the like of a person who dies without recognizing the Imam of his/her time?"

How to recognize an Imam who is hiding and a Dai that won't point to him? As humanbeing explained very well, the entire fault lies with the Imam and the Dai. They will go to hell for the suffering of these people. By the way, I guarantee that none of the Dai feet kissers have a clue about the Imam of their time!!

[Muslim First]

"What is the like of a person who dies without recognizing the Imam of his/her time?"
A pagan death !! .

Br Inceticide can you qoute Qur'an Ayat and/or Ahadith stating this?

BTW, FYI Ahadith is plural for Hadith.

[Rationalist]

The Dai will verify the true Imam. Therefore we are trying to verify the true Dai. If we get through verifying the true Dai than there will be no problem in verifying the Imam as well. Mazoon and Mukasir will be witness in the process of verifying the Imam.

Hussain,
I have given you a detailed response on the PM.

However, consider this, and this is for all progressives:
You are saying that you "are trying to verify the true Dai". So in case, If you or any other progs(and all those who have already died in the last 40 years in the progressive side) die before having identified the true Dai (who is the face of the Imam during Imam's seclusion), it would be akin to dying without knowing the Imam of the time. Right?

Now, all the scholars from the progressive side on ismaili doctrine and Hadees, please tell everyone on this forum loudly and without mincing any words "What is the like of a person who dies without recognizing the Imam of his/her time?"

The hadith you quoted obligates knowing only the Imam. There's no mention of a Dai who is needed to be known or recognized in the seclusion of Imam. Your belief is a mere interpretation of it. It would have made some sense if the Dai would be following the teachings of the previous Imams. But instead we see him following the Umayyads. He is seen giving administrative seats to his royal family, allowing corruption to exist in the community, bribing officials, amassing more and more wealth, even if it takes to sell sacred religious titles and looting poor people off their hard earned money.

Like you have your interpretation, we have ours too. We recognize that the 21st Imam went into seclusion and the chain of Imams is continuing in his progeny. We recognize that the Imam of our time is there and will make an appearance. Until then, rather than kissing feet of a corrupt astray Dai we will focus on doing 'saalehaat'
- ان الله لا يضيع اجر من احسن عملا

Which of the both makes more sense? Rather than following a blind faith, use your 'aql'
وقالوا لو كنا نسمع أو "نعقل" ما كنا في أصحاب السعير

[Muslim First]

"What is the like of a person who dies without recognizing the Imam of his/her time?"
A pagan death !! .

Hussain,
I have given you a detailed response on the PM.

progticide Bhai
Hum bhi "ola Musalman" He. Hame bhi ye secrete Ilm sharik karo.
Please we would like to know about it.
Who said "What is the like of a person who dies without recognizing the Imam of his/her time?"
A pagan death " Is it in Qur'an? or a Hadeeth by {rophet?

[progticide]

progticide Bhai
Hum bhi "ola Musalman" He. Hame bhi ye secrete Ilm sharik karo.
Please we would like to know about it.
Who said "What is the like of a person who dies without recognizing the Imam of his/her time?"
A pagan death " Is it in Qur'an? or a Hadeeth by {rophet?

MF,
Since you would not trust any Shia (DB or Isna ashari) sources, let me give you some Sunni sources to think over.
After this hope you would not bother us with your undue and unnecessary interference in matters that are beyond your understanding and intelligence.

Musnad Ahmad, Vol. 3, p. 446:
قال رسول الله صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وسلَّم : من مات وليست عليه طاعه مات ميتة جاهلية.
The Holy Prophet (a.s) has said: One who dies without obedience (to an Imam), dies as a pagan and disbeliever.

Sahih Muslim, Vol. 12, p.240 (Nawawi’s exposition):
سمعت رسول الله صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وسلَّم يقول: ومَن ماتَ وَلَيسَ في عُنُقِه بَيعَةٌ ماتَ ميتة جاهلية.
The Holy Prophet (a.s) has said: One who dies with no allegiance (to an Imam) has died as a pagan.

Al-Mu’jam Al-Kabir, Vol. 10, p.289:
قال رسول الله صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وسلَّم : مَنْ ماتَ ولَيسَ عليه إمامُ فَمِيتَتُهُ مِيتَةٌ جاهِلِيّة.
The Holy Prophet (a.s) has said: One who dies and has no Imam has died as a pagan.

Musnad Ahmad, Vol. 4, p.96:
قال رسول الله صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وسلَّم : مَنْ ماتَ بِغَيرِ إمامٍ ماتَ مِيتةً جاهِلِيّة.
The Holy Prophet (a.s) has said: One who dies with no Imam dies as a pagan.


Al-Hafiz Abu Bakr Umar Ibn Abi ‘Asim Al-Sheybani, died in 287 AH, quotes the same tradition with slight differences not changing the meaning in ‘Kitab Al-Sunnah’. The researcher of the book says about the tradition, “It is well-documented,” as is included in other Musnads and collections of traditions.

Mustadrak Hakim, Vol. 1,p.77:
قال رسول الله صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وسلَّم : مَن ماتَ ولَيسَ عَلَيه إمامُ جَماعَةٍ فإنّ مِيتَتَهُ مِيتَةٌ جَاهِلِيةٌ.
The Messenger of Allah said: One who dies and has no Imam of the public dies as a pagan.

Hakim considers this tradition as valid.

Al-Mu’jam Al-Kabir, Vol. 12, p.336:
وَمَنْ ماتَ مِن غَيرِ إمامِ جَماعَةٍ ماتَ مِيتَةً جَاهِلِيَّةً.
One who dies without an Imam of the public dies a pagan death.

[SBM]

Progticide
(since I do not consider myself an scholar and let Porus and others follow up on your translations) but if I take your words that if we have no Imam then we die as Pagan so the question is ' WHY IS IMAM STILL IN HIDING AND WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER WHEN SYEDNA TAHER SAIFUDDIN SAID IN THE COURT THAT THE CONCEPT OF HIDDEN IMAM IS IMAGINATION AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HIDDEN IMAM so did Syedna died as Pagan since he uttered those words?

[progticide]

Progticide
(since I do not consider myself an scholar and let Porus and others follow up on your translations) but if I take your words that if we have no Imam then we die as Pagan so the question is ' WHY IS IMAM STILL IN HIDING AND WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER WHEN SYEDNA TAHER SAIFUDDIN SAID IN THE COURT THAT THE CONCEPT OF HIDDEN IMAM IS IMAGINATION AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HIDDEN IMAM so did Syedna died as Pagan since he uttered those words?

WHY IS IMAM STILL IN HIDING - Unfortunately since the Imam is still in seclusion, I do not have the luxury to approach him and ask him why is he still hiding. So both of us have to wait for the answer until the Imam AS makes his appearance

WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER WHEN SYEDNA TAHER SAIFUDDIN SAID IN THE COURT THAT THE CONCEPT OF HIDDEN IMAM IS IMAGINATION AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HIDDEN IMAM - Maybe you should ask this question to Muqaddas Syedna himself if he grants you audience when you pass away. I do not have any authority to make any comment on what Aimmat Tahereen or Duat Mautlaqeen have said or would say in future, I merely follow their words and act on the same to the best of my abilities.

so did Syedna died as Pagan since he uttered those words - Pardon me for my ignorance. But you would surely get the answer to this when you are put in that 6 x 2 x 4 place under the earth which has no lights and the only people visiting you in that place would depend on the nature of your allegiance on the surface above.

Now, I having answered all possible rubbish questions, can someone ask the proggy scholars to attempt answering the questions pertaining to the subject above.

[SBM]

Progticide
No you did not answer my questions, Since you are a Die Hard Abde Regressive and surely you might have attended the Sabaks (the secret society only privileged Regressive are allowed) why do not you ask and tell us May be your Abde Scholar Adam can answer for you why is Imam in seclusion and since current Dai is in touch with him may be his surrogates who collects all the Musafihats can get some idea.
As far as Muqaddas Syedna he is already dead and no one saw his face so my question to you is did he died as Pagan as per your defination since Imam is not present and he said under oath in court that there is no such thing as Secluded Imam
For my grave, do not worry A big fat Salaam to an Aamil or Kothari Goons on my behalf ( allegiance on the surface) will not only provide me with light (chandlier) but air condition as well as cable tv so I can watch 24/7 Milaad Celebration and who knows may have enough room to hold Ziyaffats for Zaadas and Goons

[SBM]

I merely follow their words and act on the same to the best of my abilities.

So his words were he did not believe in Secluded Imam and why do not you believe in that to the best of your abilities

[ghulam muhammed]

WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER WHEN SYEDNA TAHER SAIFUDDIN SAID IN THE COURT THAT THE CONCEPT OF HIDDEN IMAM IS IMAGINATION AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HIDDEN IMAM

Your answer to the above was :-

I merely follow their words and act on the same to the best of my abilities.

Hence if you believe that the 51st dai's statement in court regarding the concept of an imam is sheer imagination and there is no such thing as hidden imam then why do you harp on something which is contrary to your teachings ? For all practical reasons you should apologise for starting this thread.

[progticide]

Sab proggy neta log chhup gaye he aur chele chapaaton ko aage kar diya he uchhal kuud karne ke liye.

Tum log samajh rahe ho ke is topic par reply nahin karenge to thode dino me apne aap ye topic kahin Backpages me slip ho jayega. Aur kisiko yaad nahi rahega ke kis tarah proggy scholars ki haalat khasta ho gayi thi is topic par jawaab maangne par. Sab so-called proggy scholars aise gaayab ho gaye jaise ghade ke sir par se seengh.

Jo progressive scholars dusre topics par badi dhoom dhaam se message post karte he, unki pant gili ho gayi he is thread par, ye sirf mainstream DB hi nahi dekh rahe balki progressives bhi dekh rahe he aur samajh bhi rahe he ki kis tarah progressive lobby ki daleelein aur doctrine khoklee he.

Islam ki buniyaad me walayat-e-ahle bayt he, aur progressives ki buniyaad me sirf aur sirf nafrat he. Ye baat sab ko saaf saaf dikh rahi he.

[anajmi]

Aur abde ke Dai ki buniyaad rokda hi rokda hai.

[Peace]

19:94 [Sahih International] And all of them are coming to Him on the Day of Resurrection alone.

19:94 [Yusuf Ali] And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment.


6:94 [Sahih International] [It will be said to them], "And you have certainly come to Us alone as We created you the first time, and you have left whatever We bestowed upon you behind you. And We do not see with you your 'intercessors' which you claimed that they were among you associates [of Allah]. It has [all] been severed between you, and lost from you is what you used to claim."

6:94 [Yusuf Ali] "And behold! ye come to us bare and alone as We created you for the first time: ye have left behind you all (the favours) which We bestowed on you: We see not with you your intercessors whom ye thought to be partners in your affairs: so now all relations between you have been cut off, and your (pet) fancies have left you in the lurch!"



From the above two verses it can be infered that humans will be raised/come alone on the Day of Judgment.


Verse related to Imam

17:71 [Sahih International] [Mention, O Muhammad], the Day We will call forth every people with their record [of deeds]. Then whoever is given his record in his right hand - those will read their records, and injustice will not be done to them, [even] as much as a thread [inside the date seed].

17:71 [Yusuf Ali] One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.



Now from above verse it can be infered that here imam means book bc if we interpret in above verse that imam means a person (as bohras/shias do) then a contradiction will come in Quran, which is not possible, that at one place (19:94, 6:94) it is saying, humans will be raised/come alone and other place (17:71) it is saying, humans will be raised/called with their imams on the Day of Judgment.


So which one is right? Raise/Call alone or with Imam on the Day of Judgment?

Note: Dear Readers, By no means I am concluding any thing from my this post my intention is just to give a new dimension and Quranic references to research on the topic. After all I am not a scholar. Just have the curiosity for deen's knowledge to seek the truth.

Dear Dawoodi Bohras your input on this post will be much appreciated. For authentic bohra knowledge please put these references to amil saheb so that a deep screening may be done for the sake of yours and ours guidance.

Again it will be appreciated if members debate logically and rationally rather than using abusive language.

May Allah show us "Sirat-e-Mustaqeem". Ameen

[AliRahbar]

Aur abde ke Dai ki buniyaad rokda hi rokda hai.

why jealous?

[Al Zulfiqar]

insecticide,

you still havent answered the question:

what if the true imam, when he appears, decides that the reformists are his true followers and dai and the abde regressives are not, then what will you do? abandon your dai or abandon the true imam?

[anajmi]

Aur abde ke Dai ki buniyaad rokda hi rokda hai.

why jealous?

Jealous of a bandit? Naah!!

[anajmi]

Imamers, abdes or Ismailis or Aga Khanis or Alavi Bohras normally quote this ayah of the Quran when they try to justify the existence of an Imam for all ages.

36:11
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نُحْيِي الْمَوْتَى وَنَكْتُبُ مَا قَدَّمُوا وَآثَارَهُمْ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ أحْصَيْنَاهُ فِي إِمَامٍ مُبِينٍ

The rest of us say that إِمَامٍ مُبِينٍ simply refers to your book of records. I found another interesting ayah in the Quran which confirms the understanding of the rest of us.

وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ أَحْصَيْنَاهُ كِتَابًا

Surah An Naba - 78:29

[Adam]

The rest of us say that إِمَامٍ مُبِينٍ simply refers to your book of records.

Again, it all depends on how you interpret the Quran.
The Shias interpret it as the word "Imam" as a Person, The Imam, in accordance to "our" teachings of the Prophet and the Ahlul Bayt.
The Sunnis interpret it as a physical book.
Each follow their own teachings and beliefs.

For example between Shii and Sunni thoughts:
[17:71]
One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.
(Yusuf Ali)

(Think of) the Day when We will call every people with their books of deeds.
(Muhammed Taqi Usman)

It's all about authority
It would be interesting to see the Proggies defending this belief. And what authority they follow.
Or do they not believe in the Imam?

[humanbeing]

19:94 [Sahih International] And all of them are coming to Him on the Day of Resurrection alone.

19:94 [Yusuf Ali] And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment.


6:94 [Sahih International] [It will be said to them], "And you have certainly come to Us alone as We created you the first time, and you have left whatever We bestowed upon you behind you. And We do not see with you your 'intercessors' which you claimed that they were among you associates [of Allah]. It has [all] been severed between you, and lost from you is what you used to claim."

6:94 [Yusuf Ali] "And behold! ye come to us bare and alone as We created you for the first time: ye have left behind you all (the favours) which We bestowed on you: We see not with you your intercessors whom ye thought to be partners in your affairs: so now all relations between you have been cut off, and your (pet) fancies have left you in the lurch!"



From the above two verses it can be infered that humans will be raised/come alone on the Day of Judgment.


Verse related to Imam

17:71 [Sahih International] [Mention, O Muhammad], the Day We will call forth every people with their record [of deeds]. Then whoever is given his record in his right hand - those will read their records, and injustice will not be done to them, [even] as much as a thread [inside the date seed].

17:71 [Yusuf Ali] One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.



Now from above verse it can be infered that here imam means book bc if we interpret in above verse that imam means a person (as bohras/shias do) then a contradiction will come in Quran, which is not possible, that at one place (19:94, 6:94) it is saying, humans will be raised/come alone and other place (17:71) it is saying, humans will be raised/called with their imams on the Day of Judgment.


So which one is right? Raise/Call alone or with Imam on the Day of Judgment?

Note: Dear Readers, By no means I am concluding any thing from my this post my intention is just to give a new dimension and Quranic references to research on the topic. After all I am not a scholar. Just have the curiosity for deen's knowledge to seek the truth.

Dear Dawoodi Bohras your input on this post will be much appreciated. For authentic bohra knowledge please put these references to amil saheb so that a deep screening may be done for the sake of yours and ours guidance.

Again it will be appreciated if members debate logically and rationally rather than using abusive language.

May Allah show us "Sirat-e-Mustaqeem". Ameen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HI Adam
Whats your POV on this post.

[Muslim First]

Adam
Again, it all depends on how you interpret the Quran.
The Shias interpret it as the word "Imam" as a Person, The Imam, in accordance to "our" teachings of the Prophet and the Ahlul Bayt.
The Sunnis interpret it as a physical book.
Each follow their own teachings and beliefs.

Adam Bhai we have gone over and over with Shia crap of interpretation of Qur'an.
Shia use Qur'an and Ahadith for convience only. Look at Salat. There are 5 clearly mentioned in Qur'an but they conviently use Hadith to reduce into 3 times. If they do not want to abide by Ahadith by 3+1 they will conviently not use it and if it serves their purpose they will say "one Sahaba has narreted it"

Now which Imam is going to stand with you? Do you know him? You do not even know that he is around or not. Your 51 has said that there is no such thing.

You are taken to cleaners in Imam's name and you know it.

[Adam]

@Humanbeing
My POV is the same of the Shias.
Each person will have to subject himself to the Imam, and intercession is only through him. That is the first step, secondly each will be categorized according to their own deeds.

@Muslim First
We know you're a Sunni, so don't let this thread divert. We are discussing the Imam in accordance to Shia thoughts. Sunnis don't accept it, so don't.
Just as your Sunni beliefs will support your Sunni/Wahabi agendas (like destroying the Qabr of AhululBayt AS and trying to demolishing the Grave of the Prophet), Shia beliefs will support Shia beliefs.
Simple.
It's all about authority. Follow what you may.

[Muslim First]

Each person will have to subject himself to the Imam, and intercession is only through him.

Hadith clearly says it will be Prophet SAW.

and who is going to be your Imam? What is his name? Your 51 said he does not exist.

@Muslim First
We know you're a Sunni, so don't let this thread divert. We are discussing the Imam in accordance to Shia thoughts. Sunnis don't accept it, so don't.
Just as your Sunni beliefs will support your Sunni/Wahabi agendas (like destroying the Qabr of AhululBayt AS and trying to demolishing the Grave of the Prophet), Shia beliefs will support Shia beliefs.
Simple.

Adam bhai
Who do think you are? Are you conductor of this orchestra? That everybody will dance to your tune? If you do not have something to say just do not respond. Not this shia sunni crap.

[profastian]

Each person will have to subject himself to the Imam, and intercession is only through him.

Hadith clearly says it will be Prophet SAW.

and who is going to be your Imam? What is his name? Your 51 said he does not exist.

@Muslim First
We know you're a Sunni, so don't let this thread divert. We are discussing the Imam in accordance to Shia thoughts. Sunnis don't accept it, so don't.
Just as your Sunni beliefs will support your Sunni/Wahabi agendas (like destroying the Qabr of AhululBayt AS and trying to demolishing the Grave of the Prophet), Shia beliefs will support Shia beliefs.
Simple.

Adam bhai
Who do think you are? Are you conductor of this orchestra? That everybody will dance to your tune? If you do not have something to say just do not respond. Not this shia sunni crap.

Looks like they have given him a a lot of morphine to relieve the old man frm the pain in his butt.
MF, let go of life support and end your miserable life.

[Muslim First]

The True Imam - How would you verify?
For Bohra there is no living Imam since 21
It is just a "Maya Jaal" created by Malika and Dais for stupid abdes.
Decide who is true dai.
If the true one is 52 or 53 then their Mafia will kill Imam.

there is another dai in Baroda he claims same thing.

[Muslim First]

It is just a "Maya Jaal" created by Malika and Dais for stupid abdes

stupid abdes
That fits like T to you Profestain

[anajmi]

Again, it all depends on how you interpret the Quran.
The Shias interpret it as the word "Imam" as a Person, The Imam, in accordance to "our" teachings of the Prophet and the Ahlul Bayt.
The Sunnis interpret it as a physical book.
Each follow their own teachings and beliefs.

The shia interpretation is wrong according to the Quran itself. There is no need to interpret that which is absolutely clear in the Quran. The Quran itself has given us the interpretation of "Imam" to mean a "Kitaab". Every other interpretation can be thrown in the garbage dump.