Sajdah - us Shukr

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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Tue Jan 22, 2002 7:34 pm

Dear Qiyam,<p>I will re-read the ayats. However, I will make this distinction.<p>Quran may have anecdotes about angels and humans prostrating before other humans.<p>Quran does not explicitly say to humans, therefore, do as these notables did and prostrate before the following dignitaries:<p>prophets, imams, dais, men of knowledge, ulul amr, abwaabul amr etc.<p>However, I will read the ayats and confirm for myself.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Tue Jan 22, 2002 7:52 pm

[12.99] Then when they came in to Yusuf, he took his parents to lodge with him and said: Enter safe into Egypt, if Allah please.<p>[12.100] And he raised his parents upon the throne and they fell down in prostration before him, and he said: O my father! this is the significance of my vision of old; my Lord has indeed made it to be true; and He was indeed kind to me when He brought me forth from the prison and brought you from the desert after the Shaitan had sown dissensions between me and my brothers, surely my Lord is benignant to whom He pleases; surely He is the Knowing, the Wise.<p><br>Please explain to me where Allah or the Prophet Yusuf negates the actions in the Quran. Please explain to me where Allah negate the actions of angels who were told by Allah to prostrate infront of Adam. Both of these were prostrations of respect and explained in the ayats?<br>
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Tue Jan 22, 2002 8:08 pm

72:18 Surely, mosques (masaajid plural of masjid) are for Allah.<p>Masaajid is derived from the word sujd/prostration and it can mean the points of contact during prostration, that is the parts of the body as well as the ground.<br>
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Tue Jan 22, 2002 8:13 pm

Sister Jinx wrote:>> Br Simon Non-Fatimi author has written many uncomplimentary things about our Cairo Imam & Yemenis Dai. Our own Ismaili Taiyyibi author has exaggerated our Imams and Dais position to unbelievable heights. You can refer how our community is exaggerating our current Dai Sayedna Burhanuddin. Either the event didn’t happen or it happened but was improperly documented or …< I leave this for you to decide by yourself><p>FYI, this event has been recorded by Syedna Muayyad Shirazi in his autobiography. I assume that you accuse Syedna Muayyad of inventing stuff or exaggeration. <br>Also, if my replies do not suit you, just dont trash it outright by saying it is concocted or improperly documented.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Tue Jan 22, 2002 8:18 pm

12:99 and 12:100<p>Do these command you to prostrate before another human?<p>12:99 has nothing on "prostration".<p>12:100 is very vague.<p>My translation of the relevant first part of 12:100<p>"And he raised his parents high and they fell before him "in manner of prostration" (kharru lahu sujjadan)."<p>Did they fall voluntarily? Did they fall in worship? Or, like that elephant in Tanzania, did they only appear to be prostrating? And where they prostrating before Yusuf in worship or respect or admiration?<p>You can dispute this till cows come home.<p>But answer me this. In what manner did you deduce from 12:100 that therefore Allah commands humans to prostrate before other humans?<br>
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Tue Jan 22, 2002 9:07 pm

Dear MuslimFirst,<br>Is the your attempt at interpretating the apparent meanings of words...I concept you don't believe in.<p>Dear Porus,<p>(12:100) Wa rafa'ah ahbawayhi alal arshi wa kharullahu sujjadan.<p>"And he raised his parents to the throne and they fell down before him prostrate."<p>If you reference the ayat before (12:99)saying:<p>"Then when they came in to Yusuf, he took his parents to lodge with him and said: Enter safe into Egypt, if Allah please."<p>Yusuf Nabi took his parents into Eygpt as an act of mercy from Allah. And then Yusuf Nabi (12:100) explains: <p>"He brought me forth from the prison and brought you from the desert after the Shaitan had sown dissensions between me and my brothers."<p>What is happening is Yusuf Nabi's parents, after dissensions amongst his brothers in regard to them, comes to Yusuf Nabi for assistance and Yusuf Nabi gladly accepts them and places them in a high position. In gladness they prostrate in respect and honor of Yusuf Nabi for this regard. <p>And to add Yusuf Nabi say to his parents after prostrating (12:100):<br>"And he said: "O my father! This is the interpretation of my dream aforetime! My Lord has made it come true!"<br>
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Tue Jan 22, 2002 9:16 pm

Muslim writes:<p>"Masaajid is derived from the word sujd/prostration and it can mean the points of contact during prostration, that is the parts of the body as well as the ground."<p>What a load of twaddle!<p>Why don't you consult an Arabic-English Dictionary. I suggest the one by Hans Wehr.<p>Look the dictionary up under the root of the word s.j.d.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Tue Jan 22, 2002 9:20 pm

Qiyam,<p>Quran does not state what you say. But even if you accept your explanation, how does it logically lead you to say:<p>"Therefore Allah commands humans to prostrate before other humans"?<br>
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Tue Jan 22, 2002 9:41 pm

Why don't you consult an Arabic-English Dictionary. I suggest the one by Hans Wehr.<p>Oh yes, the dictionary of "modern" Arabic, except the Quran was written in classical Arabic, 1400 years ago.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Tue Jan 22, 2002 9:54 pm

Dear Porus,<p>"Therefore Allah commands humans to prostrate before other humans"?<p>You cannot conclude this...and I never said anything remote to that conclusion.<p>My stance is that Allah has not made prostration itself as an act of worship. Yes He has written prostration of worship can only be for Allah. But nowhere does He negate that the act of prostration is an act of worship in and itself. Just by being in prostration does not mean you are worshiping..just as being in ruku doesn't mean your worshipping. This is my point and the ayats illuminate this point...Nabi Yusuf and for the matter Allah do not negate the actions of prostration for Nabi Yusuf. My contension is that because the prostration was out of respect and not worship is why it was allowed. <p>Secondly, the Quran stated word for word what I put in parenthases. All I did is restate the same words. In fact I didn't even take them out of order. Please tell me where I am wrong.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Tue Jan 22, 2002 11:32 pm

I think this is what you are saying.<p>"Allah describes prostration to Yusuf by his parents. Allah does not state that this was wrong. It is therfore not forbidden. I do not know this for certain, but I think that prostration was an act of respect and not of worship."<p>I am prepared to accept that your interpretation is plausible. I will defer agreement just yet.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 3:16 am

Porus & Qiyam,<p>Guys...tell you what....let's treat him like a parent ! Give him the respect that he may arguably deserve (minus the $$$). He did not bring us into this world so we have our parents to thank us for that. Do we do Sajdah to them.....? no. Do we have to pay them if we decided to ? no...<p>Get my point ? Get a life.....
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 3:21 am

Dear Brothers (Porus, Muslim, anajmi, MuslimFirst and Qiyam)<p>Translation of Holy Quran verses that I posted is from Al-Mizan By Allamah Tabatabai, Holy Quran translations by Sheikh Muhammad Sarwar and referencing Ayatollah Al-Shirazi work on tafseer. <p>I am going to present you all possible translation for verse (72:18,72:19 and 72:20) and will explain to you why I believe the best and most suitable is the one I posted.<p>A - Translation for 72:18, 72:19 and 72:20<br>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>YUSUFALI: And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): So invoke not any one along with Allah (72:18) yet when the Devotee of Allah stands forth to invoke Him, they just make round him a dense crowd. (72:19) Say: "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him any (false god)."(72:20)<p>PICKTHAL: And the places of worship are only for Allah, so pray not unto anyone along with Allah (72:18) and when the slave of Allah stood up in prayer to Him, they crowded on him, almost stifling. (72:19) Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner (72:10)<p>SHAKIR: And that the mosques are Allah's, therefore call not upon any one with Allah (72:18) and that when the servant of Allah stood up calling upon Him, they well nigh crowded him (to death). (72:19) Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner. (72:20)<p>AL-MIZAN: All the parts of the body to be placed on the ground during prostration belong to God (72:18). Do not prostrate before anyone other than Him. When the servant of God (Muhammad) preached (his message) the jinn would all crowd around him (72:19) (Muhammad), say, "I worship only my Lord and do not consider anyone equal to Him" (72:20). <p>B - Tafseer of the verse 72:18, 72:19, 72:20<br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>(72:18) And the masjids are for Allah, so call not with Allah a one – ‘Masjids’ is given for masạjid, the plural of masjid, meaning a mosque, but literally meaning ‘a place of prostration’. Here what is meant are the points of prostration on the body – the forehead, the palms and the rest. These are for Allah: created by Him, and in the possession of His sacred essence. So do not call on anyone alongside Him; how could you call on other than Him with a bodily part that is His? It is also likely that here the masạjid or ‘places of prostration’ is general and includes what has been stated as well as the constructed places of prostration, meaning that we should not call on other then him, glorified be He, within them – given that the polytheists prayed to their idols within the house of Allah, the Most High, in Makkah. <p>(72:19)'And indeed, when the servant of Allah stood to call Him they were well-nigh upon him in swarms.' - When the Messenger of Allah, Allah condescend upon him and upon his House, prayed to Allah, the One, glorified be He, the disbelievers were almost upon him in swarms, to prevent him from his prayer. It would appear that this concludes the speech of the jinn, and that the previous three ạyạt are an interjection. <p>(72:20) Say: ‘I only call my Master, and I partner not unto Him a one.’- Say, O Messenger, to those disbelievers: I call on my Master, the One and Alone, and I associate none with my Master. That is not some innovation, to cause you to gather against me and seek to prevent me. <p>C - Arabic Dictionary - Sujud (Sajda), Sajjadah, Masjid, Massajid<br>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>1) Sujud - s*j*d: Sujud is when a believer places the forhead on the ground as an act of praise and glorification of Allah. A physical act symbolizing submission to Allah. A related word is MASJID also s*j*d<p>2) Sajjadah - The prayer carpet or mat used by Muslims. Also called a Musalla (meaning a small private place of prayer) comes from the root word Sajda<p>3) Masjid - Massajid (plural): <br>i) The place where Muslims offer these prayers is called Masjid. The word Masjid literally means any place in which one performs the act of Sujud (prostration) and acts of worship or devotion. <p>ii) Mosque is called Mosquee in French, Moschee in German. The Arabic word Masjid is derived from the word Sajada, meaning "he became humble or submissive or he bent himself down on the ground before God".<p>iii) The word Masjid used in the Quran, especially in connection with the al-Masjid al-Haram, places of worship of other religion(Christians and Jewish) as well as the act of prostration oneself in prayer by dropping gently upon the knees, placing the palms of the hands on the ground, a little before the place of the knees, and then putting the nose and the forehead on the ground, the former first, between the two hands.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 8:48 am

Br Porus<p>I am posting the translation and Tafseer for verse (76:25 and 76:26). You are free to accept any translation that you prefer but I think we can all agree that we should try to get as closest possible to the real intended meaning and what Allah swt is trying to convey to mankind by all mean. <p>I have some understanding of everyday Arabic conversation with average limited vocabulary but Quranic Arabic is (Allah-hu-Akhbar) simply great and I would never come close to ever translating the verses on my own without help from Quranic Scholar, Quranic dictionary and commentary. Quranic verses are too deep and too powerful; I don't think I would be able to do any justice ever with them.<p>Br, I wish you would help me with your brilliant input because I am only searching for the truth and the real message of Allah swt. As long as Bohrisme doesn't go against any commandment from Allah swt (namely the holy book) I am okay with it. But if it does, then I cannot accept it because making someone angry is much more preferable than making Allah swt angry. <p>A - Quranic Translation for verse 76:25 and 76:26<br>---------------------------------------------<br>---------------------------------<br>YUSUFALI: And celebrate the name of thy Lord morning and evening(76:25). And part of the night, prostrate thyself to Him; and glorify Him a long night through.(76:26)<p>PICKTHAL: Remember the name of thy Lord at morn and evening.(76:25)And worship Him (a portion) of the night. And glorify Him through the livelong night.(76:26) <p>SHAKIR: And glorify the name of your Lord morning and evening.(76:25)And during part of the night adore Him, and give glory to Him (a) long (part of the) night.(76:26)<p>Al-MIZAN :Mention the Name of your Lord, mornings and evenings (76:25). Prostrate before Him and glorify Him extensively during the night (76:26). <p>B - Tafseer of the verse 76:25, 76:26<br>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>And recall the name of thy Master morning and afternoon. (76:25) - That is: he was to recall the name of the Master, with remembrance, supplications and the prayer,at the two ends of the day. <p><br>And of the night, prostrate to Him, and glorify Him in the long night. (76:26) - <p>i) And of the night, prostrate to Him,... That is: during a part of the night, prostrate to Allah, glorified be He, meaning prayer and worship. In other words, he was to surrender himself to Allah, glorified be He. <p>ii)...and glorify Him... He was to express his declaration that He is above all that is unworthy of Him. <p>iii)...in the long night. The night is the spring-time of the devoted, they take its duration as a means for submissiveness and supplication, for the deepest impulses are only activated by a long submissiveness and humility.<br>
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:21 am

Dear Br Simon<p>I said …"< I leave this for you to decide by yourself>"<p>Personally, If I myself was ever in the presence of prophet swt or Moulana Ali Ibn Abi Talib I would personally be in awe and maybe I too would fall down on my knees as a sign of respect to them but that doesn’t mean what I did can be consider as Islamicly correct or you can make a ruling based on my action. We are human beings and sometimes we cannot control our heartbeat, our physical conditional, our emotional state and ourselves when we are face with this. <p>Have you ever met some famous movie star or TV personalities Br Simon? I have. And you know what I was in awe and could not stop staring them :). And in fact I wanted to go even closer to them and hear their voice and compare to what I am use to hearing on TV. Do you understand what I am saying here?<p>Islamic Ruling is based on Al-Quran, and Sunnah of prophet - which in turn is based on Al-Quran. Imams teaching are based on prophet Sunnah and Al-Quran. This is the gist of our Jurisprudence or Fiqh. Not on sunnah of other famous personalities. <p>I have strong conviction that Sajda done to Sayedna as practice in our Bohri community is wrong and degrading. My father and my grandfather had never done it until fairly recently in -10 years- back period. Did they just found out that we were not doing Sajda for hundreds of years and we should be doing it now??
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:52 am

<br>Chek this photograps out<p>http://jamaats.mumineen.org/nairobi/Events/Safar1422/Wadaa/P1170092.jpg<p>http://jamaats.mumineen.org/nairobi/Events/Safar1422/Wadaa/P1170097.jpg<p><br>
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:09 pm

Jinx,<p>The translators you quoted re 76:26 are all wrong!!<p>Wa min_al-layli fa_sjud la-hu <br>Wa sabbih-hu laylan tawillan<p>And in the night, therefore (fa) prostrate to him<br>And glorify him all night long.<p>This is my translation.<p>There is no word ‘name’ (ism), no ‘thy lord’ (rabbu-ka or rabbika), no ‘morning’ (subha). <p>I grant min_al-layli could be translated ‘portion of the night’.<p>Translators are adding words and interpretation to the Quran. If you accept their interpretation, then you are arbitrarily doing that and arbitrarily rejecting Qiyam’s explanation.<p>Muslim,<p>Also, masjid means ‘a place of worship’. Any extras are interpretation of the lexicographer. <p>It may mean the ground where you perform sajda. But then everywhere is a masjid. No. masjid is a place designed and consecrated as a place of worship. It does not mean an act of sajda nor does it mean any body parts in sajda. Even though the word sajda and masjid are from the same root s.j.d.<p>I apologise for some hard words like ‘twaddle’. On reflection, that was not necessary.<p>I have pasted part of Jinx’s post below for reference.:<p>A - Quranic Translation for verse 76:25 and 76:26<br>---------------------------------------------<br>---------------------------------<br>YUSUFALI: And celebrate the name of thy Lord morning and evening(76:25). And part of the night, prostrate thyself to Him; and glorify Him a long night through.(76:26) <br>PICKTHAL: Remember the name of thy Lord at morn and evening.(76:25)And worship Him (a portion) of the night. And glorify Him through the livelong night.(76:26) <br>SHAKIR: And glorify the name of your Lord morning and evening.(76:25)And during part of the night adore Him, and give glory to Him (a) long (part of the) night.(76:26) <br>Al-MIZAN :Mention the Name of your Lord, mornings and evenings (76:25). Prostrate before Him and glorify Him extensively during the night (76:26). <br>B - Tafseer of the verse 76:25, 76:26<br>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>And recall the name of thy Master morning and afternoon. (76:25) - That is: he was to recall the name of the Master, with remembrance, supplications and the prayer,at the two ends of the day. <p>And of the night, prostrate to Him, and glorify Him in the long night. (76:26) - <br>i) And of the night, prostrate to Him,... That is: during a part of the night, prostrate to Allah, glorified be He, meaning prayer and worship. In other words, he was to surrender himself to Allah, glorified be He. <br>ii)...and glorify Him... He was to express his declaration that He is above all that is unworthy of Him. <br>iii)...in the long night. The night is the spring-time of the devoted, they take its duration as a means for submissiveness and supplication, for the deepest impulses are only activated by a long submissiveness and humility.<p>
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:12 pm

I withdraw my lat post because translators have correctly translated 76:25.<p>Sorry to all.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:22 pm

Dear Porus,<br>I thank for the consideration...but it doesn't just stop there in analysis. You see from these very ayats we go to the actions of the Prophet Muhammad..who also allowed muslims to do sajadah of respect to himself. We as muslims practice our faith by example...this is what the Prophet taught. So when I referenced the Quranic ayats allowing sajadah of respect to other Prophets...why would I limit the action...when no verified authority (ie Allah's word, the Prophet or Imams) limits it except in one way...that is out of respect and not worship.<p>So you go to the practices of the Prophet and Imams...whom do not negate the action of sadajah of respect in anyway, except one...that the person doing it knows it is RESPECT and not WORSHIP.<p>My interpretation is correct..because it is supported by both Quran and sunnah...not just what I think things mean. The opponents have constantly shoved their opinions using Quranic ayats misappropriately to the deny the use of the action. While at same time..not realizing that the other Quranic ayats clearly spells out the action so it cannot be misinterpreted. To add, the Prophet and Imams allowed the practiced sajadah as'sukar.<p>You can TELL me all day long that "prostration in worship" is for Allah...I agree. But there is absolutely no evidence (Quranic or sunnah) saying the act of prostration IS worship itself. Just as being in "qiyam of worship" is for Allah only..but there is nothing saying to be in qiyam IS worship itself.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 5:14 pm

Dear Bro Qiyam,<p>If you were to follow by example, who is a better example than the prophet Mohammed (pbuh). Can you show when or where he performed Sajdah to anybody other than Allah? Well, people may have performed sajdah to the prophet, but are we better off following their examples, or those set by the prophet himself?
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 8:39 pm

Dear Anajmi,<br>It is by the Prophet example that he allowed muslims to do sajadah to him...not him doing it to the other muslims. He is the religious authority not us. The only one above the Prophet is Allah.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:54 pm

Dear Bro Qiyam,<p>Well then whose example are you following? Show me an instance where Ali performed sajda to the prophet or Hasan (as) or Husein (as) or Fatima(as).
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:48 pm

Br Porus<p>I believe the translation for 76:25 and 76:26 is correct. The word use might be different but it is only a translations - our concern is getting the most accurate (closest) meaning. I am in agreement with your translation.<p>76:25:Wadzkurisma rab bika bukrataw wa ashila_<br>And recall the name of thy Master morning and afternoon. (76:25) <br>76:26:Wa minal laili tasjud lahu_ wa sab bih hu lailan thawila<br>And of the night, prostrate to Him, and glorify Him, in the long night<p>It is exactly the same with what you posted.<br>Wa min_al-layli fa_sjud la-hu <br>Wa sabbih-hu laylan tawillan<br>And in the night, therefore (fa) prostrate to him And glorify him all night long.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Thu Jan 24, 2002 2:49 am

Br Porus<p>Masjid/Massajid can have many meaning. House of worship is absolutely correct, but.. Is that what is being convey is that verse? How sure are we? Translation of the Qur'an ceases to be the literal word of Allah, and cannot be equated with the Qur'an in its original Arabic form.<p>Brother you have posted:<br>Also, masjid means ‘a place of worship’. <br>>> Can my house where I do my namaaz be considered masjid? Can a Hindu temple be considered Masjid where people worship god? How do you differentiate masjid?<p>Any extras are interpretation of the lexicographer. <br>>> There is significant between s*j*d the root word where all the word - Sajda, Masjid, Massajid are derived. Arabic is very eloquent, the word are deep without us even sometimes realizing them.<p>It may mean the ground where you perform sajda. <br>>> Yes. The amazing thing I noticed about these translations are that the one actually did translation of Al-Quran from Arabic to English always interpret 'them' as Mosque (muslim house of prayers) or general house of worship but when I refer to tafseer and other Islamic scholar works, they interpret the word massajid (in plural form) as referring to body point of prostration and not the place of worship although the meaning also encompass it.<p>Also, masjid means ‘a place of worship’. Any extras are interpretation of the lexicographer. <br>>> What I have posted is from the work of tafseer. These scholars I believe are not translating A-Quran word by word but trying to approach the meaning of word and the message being convey <p>It may mean the ground where you perform sajda. But then everywhere is a masjid. <br>>> Could be. But have you ever thought to shift your focus to yourself rather than to the place. That is what these scholars have found out. They have accepted the meaning as place of worship/ where you prostrate - sajda (it is also correct) but then as you say in your post everywhere your prostrate cannot be considered masjid because then everywhere will be called masjid. You cannot say house of worship because the word 'masjid' is not same with house of god (bait - illah) general house of god.<p>No. Masjid is a place designed and consecrated as a place of worship. <br>>> What is the basis when you say the word masajid in the above means 'place of worship'? We must have some convincing proof to this. <p>It does not mean an act of sajda nor does it mean any body parts in sajda. Even though the word sajda and masjid are from the same root s.j.d.<br>>> Br Porus, a lot of Islamic scholar believe that it is referring to the body part in prostration and the translations at it best is pointing to place where we do our prostration. What is the point of Allah swt claiming the place of prostration (worship) as His when in another verse from the holy book Allah swt said "'To Him belongs all that is in the heavens, the earth, and all that is between them and to Him do all things return. (5:18)'<p>Would love to hear your thought on this.<p>Verse 72:18<br>----------------<p>72:18 Wa an nal masa_jida lil la_hi fala_ tadu_ mala_hi ahada_<br>And the masjids are for Allah, so call not with Allah a one<p>– ‘Masjids’ is given for masạjid, the plural of masjid, meaning a mosque, but literally meaning ‘a place of prostration’<p>- Here what are meant are the points of prostration on the body – the forehead, the palms and the rest. These are for Allah: created by Him, and in the possession of His sacred essence. <p>- So do not call on anyone alongside Him; how could you call on other than Him with a bodily part that is His? <p>- It is also likely that here the masạjid or ‘places of prostration’ is general and includes what has been stated as well as the constructed places of prostration, meaning that we should not call on other then him, glorified be He, within them – given that the polytheists prayed to their idols within the house of Allah, the Most High, in Makkah. <p>QUESTIONS<br>---------<br>1. Refer to a Quranic Dictionary and find all possible meaning for the word Masjid/Masajjid.<br>2. If we say Masjids (at this age) we can only understand it as mosque or Muslim house of prayer's that is because through the years meaning has change dramatically and it is different compares to 1400 years ago. Masjid has a very limited narrow meaning nowadays.<br>3. Al-Quran has also referred to Jewish and Christian house of worship as Masjid. How can we rule out the other 2 options?
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:57 am

Sister Jinx writes "I have strong conviction that Sajda done to Sayedna as practice in our Bohri community is wrong and degrading. My father and my grandfather had never done it until fairly recently in -10 years- back period. Did they just found out that we were not doing Sajda for hundreds of years and we should be doing it now??"<p>I pointed out Salman doing sajda to the Prophet, Muayyad Shirazi doing sajda to Imam Mustansir. And talking about recent history Syedna Abdu Tayeb Zakiuddin the 41st Dai writes in a letter to Syedna Hebatullah Muayyad the 40 th Dai "And O Mola, we are such true followers of you that even if Imamuz-Zaman himself were to come to us and say that I am your Imam, we would humbly araz and say that O Mola, your Dai' is present among us, tell him, and when he shows us that this is your Imam, we shall bow down in humble sajda.". Also when he went to meet Syedna Hebatullah, He said to the people present "When I went in to the Dai's presence I saw not only Syedna al-Muayyad, but I saw Muhammad, Ali, Fatema, Hasan, and Husain, panjatan paak, and I saw Tyeb Imam, in the peshani of our Mola, and in spontaneous reaction did sajda." The 40th Dai, I am sure, dates earlier than your grandfather.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Thu Jan 24, 2002 11:05 am

Jinx,<p>Scriptural language, like other languages, is subject to many different interpretations. Hence the sectarian divide.<p>While you can learn a lot from tafseers, ultimately you, and only you, can decide what the words of the Quraan mean to you.<p>Everyone and every group has the right to interpret the Quraan in their own way.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Thu Jan 24, 2002 12:13 pm

<br>100 years from now ppl. will be defending Sajada-us-Shukr by giving examples of Sajada's performed to Burhanuddin by great (Bohri) Islam scholars like qiyam and simon.<p>how many main stream muslims know 'Abdu Tayeb Zakiuddin' or 'Syedna Hebatullah Muayyad '. I only heard their name today.<p>Brother simon tell me please, Did Prophet SAW performed sujud to anybody. Did Ali R.A. perform sujud to prophet? Did Salman Farsi kept on doing Sujud to prophet after he was told not to do?<p>
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Thu Jan 24, 2002 3:02 pm

Dear MuslimFirst and Anajmi,<br>Since you lean more towards sunni beliefs this is taken from Fiqh us'Sunnah volume 2:<p>The Prostration of Thankfulness (Sajdat ush-Shukr) <p>The majority of the scholars say that it is preferred to make prostrations of thankfulness (shukr) when one receives a bounty or is rescued from some trial. Abu Bakr reports that, when the Prophet sallallahu alehi wasallam received something which pleased him or some glad tidings, he would make the sajdah in thanks to Allah. This is related by Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah, and at-Tirmizhi who says it is hasan. <p>And al-Baihaqi records, with a chain that meets al-Bukhari's conditions, that when 'Ali wrote to the Messenger of Allah, informing him that Hamazhan had embraced Islam, the Prophet prostrated, and when he raised his head, he said: "Peace be upon Hamazhan, peace be upon Hamazhan." <p>'Abdurrahman ibn 'Auf relates that the Messenger of Allah went out once and he followed him until he entered a grove of palm trees and prostrated. His prostration was so long that 'Abdurrahman feared that Allah had taken his soul. 'Abdurrahman came to look at him and he raised his head and said: "What is wrong, Abdurrahman'?" Abdurrahman mentioned what had happened, and he said: "Gabriel alehi as-salam came to me and said: 'Shall I not give you glad tidings'? Allah says to you, Whoever prays upon you, I pray upon him. Whoever salutes you, I salute him.' Therefore, I prostrated to Allah in thanks." This is related by Ahmad and by AlHakim who says: "It is sahih according to the criterion of al-Bukhari and Muslim. And I do not know anything more authentic than that." <p>Al-Bukhari records that Ka'b ibn Malik made a sajdah when he received the news that Allah had accepted his repentance. Ahmad records that 'Ali performed the sajdah when he heard the news that Zhul-Thudayyah of the Khawarij was killed. Also, as mentioned before, Sa'id ibn Mansur recorded that Abu Bakr made sajdah in thankfulness when Musailimah was killed. <p>The prostration of thankfulness is bound by the same requirements as the prostration in prayer, while some disagree as it is not a prayer. The author of Fath al-'Alam remarks: "This latter opinion is closer to being correct." Ash-Shaukani said: "There is nothing in the hadith to prove that ablution and purity of the clothes and place are required for sajdat-ushshukr. And that is the opinion of Imam Yahya and Abu Talib. And these hadith are silent about any takbir being made with the prostration. In al'Bahr it is stated that there is a takbir. Imam Yahya says: 'One is not to make the prostration of thankfulness during a prayer as it is not part of the prayer.'" <p>---I would like to emphasis again..regarding what I have posted. Prostration in itself is not worship as pointed out above. The prostration of thankfulness is not the same as the prostration of worship in salat.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Thu Jan 24, 2002 3:36 pm

Dear Bro Qiyam,<p>Where did we ever say that we should not perform sajdah to thank Allah. We are discussing about who the sajdah is directed towards. Nowhere does your post mention that these sajdah were of respect to Allah but directed towards humans. I would like you to go through your own post once again. I don't mind calling peace for the sayednaor the prophet or you or anybody, I just mind bowing down in front of you.<p>We have seen pakistanis perform sajdah after they won the cricket world cup. Obviously it was a sajdah of thankfulness, but was it towards the ICC? I doubt it.
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Re: Sajdah - us Shukr

Unread postby Guest on Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:22 pm

<br>Br. qiyam<p>You are amazing.<p>To thank allah for all the bounty is corner stone of Islam. Muslims thank allah and pray extra Nafl (calle sukarana Namaaz in Indo Pak region) all the time. Suppose I receive pay raise or bonus, I say thanks to my boss and I might pray Shukrana Namaaz to Allah SWT. And its O.K. provided I am not bending in front of my boss.<p>You have come from sujud to syedana to sujud-us-shukra to him to plain prayer for Shukra to Allah SWT. Its amazing. You are some Spin Master. Now your Chamcha's will be writing in. O boy qiyam won the debate and proved the point. Have a nice day brother.<p>This should end this debate.<p><p>
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