Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Quran 2:184: (during Ramadan) fast for fixed number of days.

Al Baqarah, Verse 185: "Ramadan…(Allah wants you) to complete the prescribed period." Allah has prescribed (pre decided) the number of days in Ramadan and not left it subjective to followers discretion of moon citing.

Al Baqarah, Verse 189: They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men. This verse says, "Moon periods/movements are fixed", only Bohras Hizri Calendar precisely exhibit this quality of moon.

Sura YaSeen verse 39 & 40: Allah states that orbits of the Moon and the Sun are fixed. Therefore the number of days in the lunar month have to be fixed.

Thus, Salafi, Sunni and Asna ashri approach to have variable period (29/30days) for Ramadan is against Quran and un-Islamic.

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The actual phrase used in the ayat (Quran 2:184) is أَيَّامًا مَعْدُودَات. The word ma'adudaat is past participle of the verb 'adda. It means that the number of days have already been determined and are fixed, by Allah.

Allah wants you to start the month by observing the moon. It interpret that the calendar months are to be based on the Lunar cycle. In other ayats, notably in Surah YaSeen, Allah states that orbits of the Moon and the Sun are fixed. Therefore the number of days in the lunar month are fixed.

All over the world a day is defined as a period from one sunrise to the following sunrise. (That includes night too). This period is known as a Solar Day. If we all used sundials, there would be no confusion about how ‘long’ that period is.

We, however, use artificial clocks which step in equal increments. According to these artificial clocks a Solar Day is on average 24 hours, that is, the duration from sunrise to the next sunrise is arbitrarily divided up into 24 equal increments or 24x60 increments or 24x60x60 increments called hours, minutes and seconds respectively. This average day is defined as a Mean Solar Day.

Supposing a Mullah in Salafi / sunni / Asna Ashri community issues a fatwa that the days should be reckoned on the basis of his personal clock that hangs in his palace. Then clearly, the Solar Day is going to differ from a Mullah Day. Enter the Quran. It does not actually define what a day is but it appears to define what a month is. It is a period from one new moon to the next new moon. Muslims ought to divide this period into say 30 days or 29 days. Any division would be arbitrary. However, Muslims do not divide this period but still use a day to be the universal 24 hours. The Sun and the Moon do not care how humans define a day. They just go rolling along.

Muslims believe that Allah does define a day as being from sunrise to sunset and night from sunset to sunrise. This is deduced from the times of namaaz and the command to fast from sunrise to sunset. Month is defined as Lunar Month and Day is defined as Solar Day.

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The period from new moon to the next new moon is 29.53 Days (i.e. Solar Days). Remember, fasting is between this period between two new moons and you must fast between sunrise and sunset. Let simplify the explanation. The period from new moon to the next new moon is 29.53 Days (i.e. Solar Days). Remember, fasting is between this period between two new moons and you must fast between sunrise and sunset. All we need to do is to calculate how many sunrises and sunsets occur during this period between two new moons or the period of 29.53 Solar Days. Regardless of whether the Sun rises before or after the Moon on the 1st of Ramadan, you end up having 30 sunrises. However, the last sunset of Ramadan may occur after the moon has set. In that case, we should be generous and complete the fast until sunset on the last day. This, I think, is in accordance with the Quran.

Remember, Allah does not err in His computations. However, a Mullah may err in observing the New Moon. The New Moon, in any case, is invisible as it is directly in line with the Sun. It will take a few days after the New Moon for its crescent to become visible. This is fraught with potential errors as it relies on human observation. It may become visible to a Mullah after one day or after two days depending upon his sight, the power of his telescope and the weather conditions. Allah has already given us the intelligence to know when the New Moons occur. So, we should go along with the calculation rather than observation and fast for 30 days.

Quran states that there are twelve months in a year (9:36) and that the crescent moon should be the guide for timing (2:189). Thus, in Islam, we have a purely Lunar calendar. For Bohras, this issue is moot as they already observe 30-day fast. Bohras Calendar is only right and other Muslims ought to adopt it.

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A calendar is a system of reckoning the number of days, months and years. In Islam, Day starts at sunrise and ends at Sunset. Month starts at New Moon. And 12 months make a year. MOON Is not a calendar. It is an object in the sky. Phases of moon are easily observable natural phenomena to mark and reckon months.

Prophet Mohammed (s) used the sighting of New Moon to start the month. But he definitely used a calendar. If not, how do you think he determined which month was Ramadaan and which was the month for Haj?

In Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) era there was no paper printed wall hanging or desktop calendar. To learn/inquire dates we sight/refer wall or desktop calendar, likewise Prophet and his pious household sighted moon. Sighting moon to learn dates doesn’t mean that Ramadan period will be variable.

Conclusion: Salafi, Sunni and Asna ashri have structural defects in their computation of Ramadan period, and their practice to have variable periods is un-Islamic and against Quran.

Wa aakhiro dawana anil hamedo lillah hai Rabbil aalameen.

badrijanab wrote:Quran 2:184:


Wa aakhiro dawana anil hamedo lillah hai Rabbil aalameen.

I taught u how to end a religious lecture, Imagine how much u can learn from true dawat.....

Examiner wrote:

badrijanab wrote:Quran 2:184:


Wa aakhiro dawana anil hamedo lillah hai Rabbil aalameen.

I taught u how to end a religious lecture, Imagine how much u can learn from true dawat.....

Did you do the same at long unending Majlis at Markaz too, specially when they were relaying Syedna's 100 Milad celebrations day in day out including Race Cars:mrgreen:

bukhari Volume 3, Book 31, Number 131:

Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "The month (can be) 29 nights (i.e. days), and do not fast till you see the moon, and if the sky is overcast, then complete Sha'ban as thirty days."

Narrated by Abu Hurayrah:

The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) made a mention of the new moon and (in this connection) said: Observe fast when you see it (the new moon) and break fast when you see it (the new moon of Shawwal), but when (the actual position of the moon is) concealed from you (on account of cloudy sky), then count thirty days.

There are many narrations of this same Hadith, which very clearly states that we Muslims should go out to witness (see with our own eyes) the Hilal (visible crescent moon) to start the Islamic months – in this case the month of fasting: Ramadan.

Since the Lunar months are either 29 or 30 days, we are only allowed to “calculate” if on the 29th day of the previous month (in this example the month of Shaba an), we cannot see the Hilal due to an overcast and cloudy sky which blocks our view.

Some people may ask, “We all know the new moon is there, and we now know (with current technology) when exactly the new moon will be “born”, etc. so why can’t we just calculate the whole Islamic calendar in advance?”

First some definitions are needed:

Hilal, an Arabic term, refers to the bright waxing crescent when it becomes visible to a normal observer by naked-eye.[2]

The “New Moon” is a modern astronomical term. It refers to the completely invisible moon at the start of a synodic cycle (29 days 12 hours, 42 minutes and 2.8 seconds).[3]

This “new moon” occurs when the Moon, in its monthly orbital motion around Earth, lies between Earth and the Sun, and is therefore in conjunction with the Sun as seen from Earth. At this time, the dark (unilluminated) portion of the Moon faces almost directly toward Earth, so that the Moon is not visible to the naked eye.[4]

Often Muslim and non-Muslim experts alike confuse astronomical “New Moon” for “Hilal”. During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (S), the Arabic language had only “Qamar” (Moon), and Hilal (Visible crescent moon) terms. It had no word for the astronomical New Moon. Thus, both the Qur’an and Sunnah instruct Muslims to start the lunar months after visually seeing the new crescent moon (hilal) with their naked eyes. No fancy telescopes, binoculars or other equipment are needed.

Now, let’s put aside these verses of the Holy Qur’an and Hadith for a moment, and look at it this question from a more universal view.

Human beings have 3 components: Physical, Intellectual and Spiritual. Most of us take care of the first two fairly well. We eat, exercise, study and excel in our school and careers. But unfortunately many of us, including myself, are lacking in our spiritual development.

All human beings whether they consider themselves “religious” or not, need some type of spiritual nourishment in their lives. Many people around the world, especially those people living in the “West”, with all the emphasis on science, technology and busy career oriented lives, are looking toward Eastern cultures which are more focused on family and spirituality. Many Westerners are employing many Eastern techniques such as Yoga, meditation, etc. to fill that spiritual void in their lives.

Muslims are no different. Although we have many rituals in our religion of Islam, which can help us to develop our spirituality, such as five daily prayers, fasting in the month of Ramadan, going on the pilgrimage to Mecca, etc. We still find ourselves sometimes feeling empty or missing something.

This is where the physical action of moon sighting prescribed by our religion can help us bridge that gap. When we go out to look for the Hilal with our own eyes, we are not only fulfilling a great Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (S), but we are also connecting with nature and the creations of Allah.

There is a great feeling of astonishment, wonder and excitement when one spots the newly born crescent moon in the sky. We become in awe of what Allah has created. It is like the birth of a child – where we are witnessing creation happening right in front of our very eyes! Our Iman (faith) in Allah increases greatly and this is definitely one of the reasons why we were instructed by the Prophet Muhammad (S) to go out and see it for ourselves!

Some people still argue the point of Unity of Muslims (either across North America or even globally) is lost by not using a calculated calendar to determine the start of the Islamic months.

Unfortunately, ISNA (Islamic Society of North America), in the false name of Unity, has set a new criteria of starting Islamic months using the calculated date of when the new moon will be astronomically born (not visually sighted) in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. If the Prophet Muhammad (S), wanted us to be united in this way, he would have instructed us to follow whatever time that Mecca started the Islamic months, but he did not do this.

This basically ignores the Qur’an and Sunnah requirements of visual sighting and tries to make a living Islamic calendar which is based on the celestial lunar movements into an averaged and incorrectly calculated system for mere convenience of when people can plan to take off a day from school or work! There is no reason why Muslims need to celebrate Eid on the same exact day everywhere in the world!

The Prophet Muhammad (S) emphasized the importance of Muslims to go out and look for the Hilal themselves. Many scholars even emphasized that their own local sighting is preferred. Such with the following narration:

Kurayb reported that Umm al-Fadhl Bint Al-rith sent him on a mission to Mu`awiyah (Radiya ‘Llahu `anhu) in Damascus. He accomplished his mission and was still in ash-Sham when Ramadan started. He saw the new moon on Friday evening. He then returned to al-Madinah, arriving therein near the end of the month. He met Ibn `Abbas who asked him when the new moon of Ramadan was sighted in ash-Sham. Kurayb said, we saw it on the night of Friday. Ibn Abbas inquired, Did you see it yourself? Kurayb replied, Yes I saw it; and People did too. Based on that, they fasted and Mu`awiyah fasted as well. Whereupon Ibn Abbas said, But we saw it on the night of Saturday; and we shall continue to fast until we complete thirty days or see it [the new moon of Shawwal]. Kurayb asked, Wouldn’t you accept Mu`awiyah’s sighting and fasting. Ibn Abbas answered: No! This is how Allah’s Messenger commanded us. [Muslim]

Conclusion:Others who do not observe moon sighting to commence fasting their fasting is not acceptable as it is against the way of Allah’s Messenger.

^ same umar said to muhammed(s) at his death bed that he is hallucinating nauzobillah, lanat on umar and his followers.

Examiner wrote:^ same umar said to muhammed(s) at his death bed that he is hallucinating nauzobillah, lanat on umar and his followers.

You are a big time liar
Admin, please kick out this brat who is masquerading and just dishing out big lies and one sentence abuses.
.

aliabbas_aa wrote:

Examiner wrote:^ same umar said to muhammed(s) at his death bed that he is hallucinating nauzobillah, lanat on umar and his followers.

You are a big time liar
Admin, please kick out this brat who is masquerading and just dishing out big lies and one sentence abuses.
.

what will u do if i prove it?

aliabbas_aa wrote:bukhari Volume 3, Book 31, Number 131:

Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "The month (can be) 29 nights (i.e. days), and do not fast till you see the moon, and if the sky is overcast, then complete Sha'ban as thirty days."

Quran is error-free and doubts-free. But Hadees can be erroneous and doubtful. Compare Hadees with Quran, if it is not in line with Quran then reject that Hadees as fake. So, your above Hadees is fake Hadees.

Sura Al Baqrah and YaSeen, categorically commanding fix period for Ramdaan, Salafi and alike are practicing otherwise.

badrijanab wrote:

aliabbas_aa wrote:bukhari Volume 3, Book 31, Number 131:

Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "The month (can be) 29 nights (i.e. days), and do not fast till you see the moon, and if the sky is overcast, then complete Sha'ban as thirty days."

Quran is error-free and doubts-free. But Hadees can be erroneous and doubtful. Compare Hadees with Quran, if it is not in line with Quran then reject that Hadees as fake. So, your above Hadees is fake Hadees.

Sura Al Baqrah and YaSeen, categorically commanding fix period for Ramdaan, Salafi and alike are practicing otherwise.

Allaah -The Most High - said: "The month of Ramadhaan in which the Qur'ân was revealed, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance of the Criterion between right and wrong. So whosoever of you sights the crescent for the month of Ramadhaan, he must fast that month." [Soorah al-Baqarah 2:185].

and fixed period means fixed by shariah scholars according to local timezones

aliabbas_aa wrote: Allaah -The Most High - said: "The month of Ramadhaan in which the Qur'ân was revealed, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance of the Criterion between right and wrong. So whosoever of you sights the crescent for the month of Ramadhaan, he must fast that month." [Soorah al-Baqarah 2:185].

Mr. aliabbas_aa, you are speaking lie, the bold text in your post is not part of the Verse 2:185.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation of 2:185 - "Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. God intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful."

[2:185 - The Ramdaan period is already prescribed (pre-decided), so your Salafi sharia scholars below cannot decide about something which is already pre-decided.]

aliabbas_aa wrote: and fixed period means fixed by shariah scholars according to local timezones

This is your/Salafi personal opinion. Nevertheless, should shariya scholar be fixing it then different geography will have different dates to start and end Ramdaan, number of fasting days will be different in different geographies - everything variable which is against Al Baqrah 2:184, 2:185, 2:189 and Sura Ya Seen 39 & 40. So, you see Salafi's in reference to Ramdaan are not abiding by Quran to have fix period for Ramdaan.

badrijanab wrote:

aliabbas_aa wrote: Allaah -The Most High - said: "The month of Ramadhaan in which the Qur'ân was revealed, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance of the Criterion between right and wrong. So whosoever of you sights the crescent for the month of Ramadhaan, he must fast that month." [Soorah al-Baqarah 2:185].

Mr. aliabbas_aa, you are speaking lie, the bold text in your post is not part of the Verse 2:185.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation of 2:185 - "Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. God intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful."

[2:185 - The Ramdaan period is already prescribed (pre-decided), so your Salafi sharia scholars below cannot decide about something which is already pre-decided.]

aliabbas_aa wrote: and fixed period means fixed by shariah scholars according to local timezones

This is your/Salafi personal opinion. Nevertheless, should shariya scholar be fixing it then different geography will have different dates to start and end Ramdaan, number of fasting days will be different in different geographies - everything variable which is against Al Baqrah 2:184, 2:185, 2:189 and Sura Ya Seen 39 & 40. So, you see Salafi's in reference to Ramdaan are not abiding by Quran to have fix period for Ramdaan.

Dear badri,

That was not a lie but an interpretation of most of the Quran translations in line with the following Ayah which clarifies the meanings of 2::185
2:189
They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the new moons. Say, "They are measurements of time for the people and for Hajj." And it is not righteousness to enter houses from the back, but righteousness is [in] one who fears Allah. And enter houses from their doors.
6:96
[He is] the cleaver of daybreak and has made the night for rest and the sun and moon for calculation. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing...

here the Quran takes moon as a source of measurement and not a man made timing device like calender. Thus in 6:96 Quran instructs mankind to use moon for calculation \"husbana"\hisaab

now if you say that misri calender is lunar then the following ayah justifies manual sighting of moon :

7:54
... . He covers the night with the day, [another night] chasing it rapidly; and [He created] the sun, the moon, and the stars, subjected by His command.

thus The moon runs on Allah's COMMAND . if Allah swt wants to delay the fasting they how can your man made calender nullify Allah's COMMAND?
What would you do if Allah stops the rotation of earth or reverses it, (that would certainly happen during end times)? in that case your calender would become invalid