Mustaqar and Mustawda Imams

[Ismailite]

Bro Qiyam had mentioned that no Ismaili works supported the Nizari Ismaili belief that Imam Hassan was a Mustawda Imam and that Imam Husayn was the Mustaqar Imam. Further he said that such a belief came up only in the last 200 years. I have found the following quotes, from up to 800 years ago regarding this subject:

Tabari (2nd vol., p. 5) writes that the oath of allegiance takeb by those present stipulated that, "They should make war on those who were at war with Hasan, and should live in peace with those who were at peace with Hasan."
It sharply suggests that the oath sworn by the Kufans was purely political, and nothing to do with the succession to the Imamate.

Hatim bin Imran bin Zahra (d. 1104) writes in his epistle, "al-Usul wa'l Ahkam" that, "After him (Ali bin Abu Talib), his son al-Hasan undertook the affairs (al-amr); he was the Trustee (mustawda) Imam, and lived 47 years. Then after him came his brother al-Husayn; he was the Permanent (mustaqar) Imam."

This is furhter echoed in the Ismaili poem, "ash-Shafiya" (pp. 146-49, 221) attributed to Abu Firas that, "And the Pure Foundation of Religion (Ali bin Abu Talib) passed away, conveying the affair (al-amr) to al-Husayn. He conveyed the outward knowledge and the religion to al-Hasan, who with trusteeship was endowed."

According to "The Encyclopaedia of Islam" (Leiden, 1971, 3rd vol., p. 1167), "Deviations from the strictly linear descendance in the succession to the Imamate were often explained in terms of a depositary (mustawda) Imamate which had to be returned to the line of permanent (mustaqar) Imams. Thus al-Hasan was sometimes considered as a depositary Imam, since the Imamate was carried on among the descendants of al-Husayn, the mustaqar Imam."

[qiyam]

Ismailite,
The problem with your analysis is that it is very selective. The vast majority of Ismaili theological works list the sucession with Imam Hasan. To selectively translate the word as "trustee" is very bad usage and argumentation. Every Imam is considered a trustee of the Ilm of Islam.

Secondly, during the lifetime of Imam Hasan...Imam Husayn never claimed Imamate nor disputed the position of Imam Hasan as the Imam during his lifetime. It is also recorded that after the demise of Imam Hasan that Imam Husayn took bayah from the shiah as the Imam.

[Ismailite]

Qiyam

My sources may selective, nevertheless they do provide a basis for the Nizari belief.

T"o selectively translate the word as "trustee" is very bad usage and argumentation. Every Imam is considered a trustee of the Ilm of Islam."

As for the usage of the term trustee, such a term or an equivalent is used by the authors stated above, and there is a clear distinction made between the Imamat of Hasan and that of Husayn, where it is clearly said that Husayn was the actual Imam and Hasan held the Imamat temporarily, ie: in trust. Note that the word trustee was only used for Imam Hassan, while the word permanet was used for Imam Husayn.

Also, the Mustawda Imam has the authority to take bayah, because he acts as the Imam as long as the permanent Imam chooses not to establish his authority.

[qiyam]

Ismailite,
The problem with your selective source is that the vast majority of sources from the time of the Fatimi Imams considered Hassan bin Ali as Imam Mustaqar. Imams Baqir and Jafar Sadiq listed him as part of chain of Imamate.

According to Tabarsi (also reported in al'Kafi and Bihar Anwar):

Imam Ali says:

"...the dying Imam [a] said his last will to his son, Hasan [a]:

"...my son, the Messenger of Allah [s] ordered me to inform you of my last will, and hand over my books and weapons to you, exactly as he told me his last will and gave me his books and weapons. He ordered me to order you to give them to your brother, Husayn, when death approaches you..."

Then he turned to his son, Husayn, and said:

"And the Messenger of Allah [s] ordered you to hand them to this son of yours."

Thereupon, he took hold of the hand of Ali bin Husayn [a] and said to him:

"And the Messenger of Allah [s] ordered you to give them to your son, Muhammad bin Ali. Remember, the Messenger of Allah [s] and me to him."

[Muslim]

Daimul Islam appears to corroborate qiyam's stance: "Then when (Ali) died, Hasan, also by reason of precedence, had a better entitlement to the imamate than Husayn. This (follows from) the verse "And those who have preceded (others in faith) shall precede (56:10)". Thus Hasan was prior to Hasayn and better entitled to the imamate."

Also, according to Kitabul Irshad, just before the pledge of allegiance Ibn Abbas is quoted as saying of Hasan: "People, this is the son of your Prophet, the wasi of your Imam. So pledge allegiance to him."

Are Hatim bin Imran bin Zahra and Abu Firas post-Alamut Nizari sources?

[Ismailite]

No, they are sources during the later Fatimid times. Obviously, there appears to be another point of view not in line with the Fatimid orthodoxy.

Another example is the ranks of the Natiq and Asas. Kirmani and Sijistani said that the Natiq corresponds to the Universal Intellect and the Asas corresponds to the Universal Soul.

However, authors later in the Fatimid Period, including Nasir Kushraw and Idris Imamudin (Tayyibi Dai) raised the rank of the Asas to that of the Universal Intellect and demoted the Natiq to that of the Universal Soul.

[Ismailite]

Idris Imamaddin - 19th Tayyibi Dai, wrote in Zahr al Maani, that Prophet Muhammad was a Mustawda Imam and Imam Ali was a Mustaqar Imam.

Here's another quote from Henry Corbin's studies on Ismailism, from his article, Cyclical Time and Ismaili Gnosis:

"In the person of Fatimda, the two functions of the Imamate (istiqrar and istida) are combined, but they separate once more in her sons, Hasan and Husayn, (Idris, p 130)...Hasan issued from her left side because he is the istida and also the exoteric law to which the tawil must apply. Husayn issued from her right side because he is the istiqrar and the esoteric tawil, the essential sense (haqiqat)."

- from the above, you can see how Imam Hasan is regarded as "istida" or a Mustawda Imam while Imam Husayn is istiqrar or a Mustaqar Imam. In our view, all Natiqs were themselves Mustawda Imams because they represent the exoteric law while all Asas and Imams were Mustaqar because they represent the esoteric tawil.

Yes Qiyam, i do realize my position is far from Fatimid orthodoxy, nevertheless, it can be supported form various sources.

[Muslim First]

.

This is like Abbot & Costello comedy "Who is on First base and who is on second"

Yes Qiyam, i do realize my position is far from Fatimid orthodoxy, nevertheless, it can be supported form various sources.

"Fatimid orthodoxy, nevertheless, it can be supported form various sources."

Various Sources excpt most important source Qur'an-Al-Majid.

Wake up my Brothers. There is no God but Allah and Muhammad SAW is his Messenger and last Prophet.

.

[Ismailite]

Muslim First,

you and your clones are completely attached to the zahiri message of the Quran, but you have no perception of the batin, the hidden meanings, thus you have are not using your intellect as much as you should.

[porus]

True, there is a very strong tradition in the belief that there is "hidden" (batin)or "inner" meaning attached to Quran and other scriptures. Even in the middle-east, before the birth of the three rather infantile religions, there have been spiritual movements. These are gnostic in character and goes by the motto "As above, so below" or "Inner detrmines the Outer"

These movements, for the most part, encourage personal investigation of the "reality". The difference in Imamism/Daism is that only ther Imam/Dai can have the knowledge of the batin, which he then conveys to a select few. A very elitist and ethnocentric Platonic philosophy, which can only lead to tyranny inimical to self-emancipation.

Plato's and other derivative philosophies are explored by Karl Popper in his book "Open Society and its Enemies". Please read.

[Muslim First]

.

Here: Read this Non Muslim Islamic Scholars affot to find ‘Batin’ meaning of Qur’an at:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/940974.asp

Here is Dr. Maher Hathout’s response:

http://www.iviews.com/Articles/articles ... V0308-2054

My contention is that there are many who claim to possess “Batin” knowledge of Qur’an. Surprisingly they do not put it on paper ‘Ayah by Ayah’.

All they have to convince their Mureeds (actually CULT members) that their Dai, Pir, Shaikh or Imam is divine and is possessor of this ‘Batin’ knowledge of Qur’an.

I challenge you my friend 'Ismailite' to post your Imam’s ‘Batin’ version of a single short Sura.

.

[serendipity]

Everyone on this board (mf 1st included) can SEE what an appalling cesspool our world has become, thanks to the literal interpretation of scripture in porus's "three rather infantile religions". It's not the authentic CORE of these faiths (and books) that is infantile. It's the dangerous CHILDREN who "interpret" them -- claiming they can take the "letter" of the books as a license from Allah (or Yahweh or Jesus) to kill others as infidels! ...Quite frankly, without the mature kernal of batin, NONE of the so-called communities of faith has a hope (or a prayer).

[Muddai]

My contention is that there are many who claim to possess “Batin” knowledge of Qur’an. Surprisingly they do not put it on paper ‘Ayah by Ayah’.

I agree, but there are many more that claim to know <B>exactly</B> what the Quran means and insinuates and it is the latter that leads to violence while the former breeds cults.

...take your pick.....

[porus]

The three middle eastern religions are infantile because they have the spirit which tends to lead to totalitarianism. The kernel of totalitarism was there even before the fatal mix of Plato and Islam that Ismailism spawned. The mix has a logical conclusion that Popes and Imam/Dai are venerated as divine characters.

Batin or gnosis derives from earlier and more mature religions of ancient egypt, mesopotamia, greece, india and china. Their philosophy preaches personal investigation of reality and emphasizes free spirit with claim that truth has infinite dimensions and every one's truth is unique to himself. All truths are equally valid.

Islam and its extremes like bohraism and daism dom not lend themselves to free expression. It needs a father figure just as an infant needs a parent. Hence they are infantile.

[serendipity]

"The three middle eastern religions are infantile because they have the spirit which tends to lead to totalitarianism." ...Porus, do some study of the Gnosis WITHIN these 3 faiths, and don't just say they automatically have the spirit which leads "to totalitarianism". There were gnostics of all 3 of these faiths within the tolerant fatimid kingdom who possessed the "batin" understanding of their respective books. (We can say that our understanding of the Self-luminous Lamp within the niche of Holy Quran is a REPRESENTATIVE expression of the Truth that in one form or other all of these gnostics shared!) Scholars for example have shown that the holy grail tradition in europe only became prominent AFTER some crystal cups & vessels of the imams were brought back to europe -- europeans had never seen vessels like these before. Of course MANY of the gnostics who possessed a crystal-clear perception of the Light paid with their LIVES, such as the cathars or albigenses who were exterminated by catholic crusaders in the south of france. (Imam Amir had already been murdered by ruthless zealots less than a century before them, and the tolerant fatimid civilization in egypt also came to an end.) But again we cannot honestly say the "spirit" of any of these religions was "responsible" for these horrors. Yes, there have always been corrupt popes & priests, power-crazed dictators, and self-styled Osama/Geo. W. "vigilantes" who parade their ruthlessness in the name of religion...Guess what?Man without Gnosis, Light, Ilm, IS LIKE THIS.

[porus]

Truly, there is a rich tradition of gnosticism in all three religions. Sufism, Kabalah and Christian gnosticism are all attempts to make these religions more mature. In this attempt the mainstream totalitarian cultures have done everything to drive these movements underground.

It can be argued that primary teachings of the founders of these religions was of a batinic nature but religions have been hijacked by self-serving establishments and the root of batin has been sundered.

I have met a number of Bohras who claim to have knowledge of batin. But on further questioning, I concluded that their batin is an interpretation of the Dai and not a consequence of personal investigation.

You may of course know batter.