Dawoodi Bohra Forum

A muslim is a person who practises Islaam. And what does Islaam mean? The word means to submit to the will of God. And what does God mean? People can have may different ideas about God but in today's world it makes sense to call God the force of nature that creates, sustains and destroys all that is in the universe. It's hard to think of God as a personal God given what we know of the universe today. Nature rules us and all that happens to us as individuals. Positive things happen to us as well as negative things that worry us and make us unhappy. They happen to us without prior notice. When we resist and fight against nature and fail, we become depressed and afraid and miserable. Islaam teaches us to allow these events to occur, ("like the trees swaying with the wind" Al Quraan reminds us). Sometimes that is the only way to overcome the grief of loss.
The Quraan, a muslim's guiding document, also teaches us to live as if we are the servants of God; to take care of the earth and everything there is in it and to serve no one else including our own ego. That means to live reverantially, revere all human beings, all animals, all plants and all creation, for all God's creation is precious. It reminds us 13 times a day to proclaim "Praise be to creation for all that it has created". In other words look how wonderful creation is and enjoy it and be greateful for having been born a human to enjoy it. Al Quraan warns us to be aware of the "Shaitaan" the negative spirit that is part of our make up, that is within us, and fight aginst it (jihaad) all the time because it is very powerful. We are reminded of this every time we recite Suratunnaas several times a day. When the shaitaan takes over we forget God and our humanity.
The first inspiration that came to The Prophet from God was to "read (Iqra ) and learn". We are encouraged to read and learn and become scholars of everything there is to learn.
Suratul Fatiha reminds us 13 times a day to only be guided by the greater good of mankind, no body else (Iyyaka naabudu wa iyyaaka nastaien), "only You do we worship and only You do we come for guidance". Not kings , queens , goverments, leaders of all kind or even money for our bank accounts.
Islaam has much more to teach us but what I am saying is that it molds us to be joyful, patient, peaceful, greateful and loving people who live their lives in service of others.
But if we see what is going on in our Bohora community today, we worship money, status, exploit the poor, regard others of other faiths as inferior, kill animals in cold blood and encourage ignorance too, I am ashamed to call myself a member of a Muslim community.

present abdes are not muslims, period.

Kyun bhai Aftaab bhai, Islaam aur Jannat pe kabza karna chahte ho???

Who are you to pass judgement on whether Dawoodi Bohras are Muslims or not?

Who died and made you God around here my friend?

To be very precise, you wont find meaning of being a muslim on this forum.
and never be ashamed of being a muslim.
You should always be proud of that.

zinger wrote:Kyun bhai Aftaab bhai, Islaam aur Jannat pe kabza karna chahte ho???

Who are you to pass judgement on whether Dawoodi Bohras are Muslims or not?

Who died and made you God around here my friend?

I am ready to take my words back, if you can show me atleast 5 qualities of present abdes which coincides with Islam.

Aftaab wrote:

zinger wrote:Kyun bhai Aftaab bhai, Islaam aur Jannat pe kabza karna chahte ho???

Who are you to pass judgement on whether Dawoodi Bohras are Muslims or not?

Who died and made you God around here my friend?

I am ready to take my words back, if you can show me atleast 5 qualities of present abdes which coincides with Islam.

1. We pray Namaaz
2. We do Roza
3. We go for Hajj
4. We believe in Allah
5. We beileve in Prophet Mohammad (SAW)
6. Our Kalama is La Illaha Illalah Mohamaadan Rasullallah
7. We say Inna Illahe Wa Illahe Rajeoon when someone dies
8. We try (the majority of us) to live as good human beings
9. We do kurbaani on Bakri Idd
10. Everything we do, we start with "Bismillah Er Rahman, Nir Rahim"

you asked for 5, i gave you 10.

You are now welcome to add you "alleged interpretations" of these and add 2 and 2 and come up with 5.

All the best.

if aftaab wants I can give more....

zinger wrote:

Aftaab wrote: I am ready to take my words back, if you can show me atleast 5 qualities of present abdes which coincides with Islam.

1. We pray Namaaz
2. We do Roza
3. We go for Hajj
4. We believe in Allah
5. We beileve in Prophet Mohammad (SAW)
6. Our Kalama is La Illaha Illalah Mohamaadan Rasullallah
7. We say Inna Illahe Wa Illahe Rajeoon when someone dies
8. We try (the majority of us) to live as good human beings
9. We do kurbaani on Bakri Idd
10. Everything we do, we start with "Bismillah Er Rahman, Nir Rahim"

you asked for 5, i gave you 10.

You are now welcome to add you "alleged interpretations" of these and add 2 and 2 and come up with 5.

All the best.

all these things are washed away by the shirk you commit day in and day out ROFL.

so no matter how many namaz you pray and rozas you do, your account in Islam still remains negative.

All the best

We are not accountable to you for our namaz and roza. Our account is with Allah....

true_bohra wrote:We are not accountable to you for our namaz and roza. Our account is with Allah....

yes, and ALLAH has already make it clear in QURAAN about what is shirk and how any thing can be forgiven but not shirk.

i do believe that Allah and the Quran has also said something about abusing another human being and making false accusations.

Like i said, you are welcome to make your "alleged interpretations" and arrive at the conclusions u desire.

As for my account being negative in Islam, well, i guess i will pay the price for it, unless you would like to pray for my soul to go to Heaven

zinger wrote:i do believe that Allah and the Quran has also said something about abusing another human being and making false accusations.

Like i said, you are welcome to make your "alleged interpretations" and arrive at the conclusions u desire.

As for my account being negative in Islam, well, i guess i will pay the price for it, unless you would like to pray for my soul to go to Heaven

every thing is crystal clear in Quraan, so its better for you to stop human worshiping and stop whining on how some body is accusing you.

Two separate issues are raised by this discussion:
1 Is it right to judge somebody?
2 What is the difference between rituals and the essence of a belief?
1 We judge people all the time. When the president of a country (who claims to be a care taker of the people) abuses his power and exploits the people, we call him corrupt and we do all we can to outst him in the next election. If a man steals from another, we judge him and put him into jail. In the same way I do not see anything wrong in making a judgement on someone who claims to be a muslim but lives an un islaamic way of life. A very famous man said "my religion is not what I believe but how I live my life and what I do in this world".
2 Mr Zinger is right about all the islaamic things we do, like reciting prayers and roza and hajj etc but these are only rituals. They help us come together. But performing these rituals is not enough. We have to have the heart of a muslim and live according to the dictates of the Quraan and the example of the Prophets life. This requires constant learning and descipline to live like "firishtas", like perfect human beeings ; living with the fear of God in our hearts, in the service of God and His Creation in all its form.
Performing all the right rituals without living true to the teachings of The Quraan is like wearing all the right uniforms of a Doctor or a pilot and not knowing much about medicine or not knowing how to fly an aeroplane.

@ aftaab
Ya i know evrything is crystal clear in Holy Qur'aan...but is the world really learning from it??? N pls get ur mind clear about shirk n we never worship Syedna(TUS)....He is the 52n vicegerant of the Holy Imam (AS) and we have all reason to respect him..
I know by this post many will get fire under their ass and start their progressive atitude by abusing and i am sure when they will not find any suitable argument they will divert the topic...

true_bohra wrote:N pls get ur mind clear about shirk n we never worship Syedna(TUS)......

Ha ha ha ha !!

Please do not misunderstand me. To create hatred is my goal. All i am doing is to share whatever I have learnt from many different sources and religions about what true spirituality is. I feel blessed to have been born a Muslim but it was not until I was 40 years old that I learnt what Islaam is really all about. It is a way of life which, if understood correctly, can lead us to a peace of mind in this stressful life and help us spread that peace to the rest of the world. It is a frame of mind, an orientation to life and Creation which is wonderful and rich. When the philosophy is mixed up with institution, our life and mind get confused. In the Prophets word, "read my freinds ,read and understand what is written for your self". There is nothing wrong with reading the translations. Gather together and discuss the many different topics. Do not get frozen in rituals. There is no other way to happiness.

I am sorry. TO CREATE HATRED IS NOT, I repeat, NOT, MY GOAL EVER. Please pardon my mistake above. Hatred does not get us anywhere. There is only one way to bring about everlasting change and that is to understand and make other people understand.

I would like to contiue examining what Al Quraan teaches us but we do not seem to know:
In the Surat "Al Maun" which means "Alms", the Prophet says "Have you not seen those who pray everyday but do nothing to help the orphans and the poor? They are Hypocrits. They are not true believers."
Unfortunately that is what we are witnessing in our community today. There are ladies like my sister in law, there are retired people like my brother in law, there are people who have lost their jobs and businesses, who have very little income; yet they are asked to pay increasing amount of money to the Jamaat, in stead of receiving help from the Jamaat. Our children get no scholarships for higher education. We have no Bohora schools even, in places where there were schools before. We have yet to build a high shool or college for our striving young children It is as if education is frowned upon. We could do much better if our hearts were in the right place; if we paid heed to what is written in Al Quraan which we profess to recite and preach every day.
May God guide our leaders on the right path of Islaam.

I would like to make an addendum to what I observed above.
I am told that education per se is not frowned upon by our religious leaders because many of the Bhaisabs have been highly educated in the west; they are engineers and proffessors in western colleges. So why is it that the lay person is not encouraged to persue education? Why are there no Bohora high school and colleges? Why are our ladies not encouraged to study. Are the leaders afraid that an educated mass will see the light and begin to question the authorities, and demand change?
May God open their eyes to what is right.

FMHASSANALI wrote:Two separate issues are raised by this discussion:
1 Is it right to judge somebody?
2 What is the difference between rituals and the essence of a belief?
1 We judge people all the time. When the president of a country (who claims to be a care taker of the people) abuses his power and exploits the people, we call him corrupt and we do all we can to outst him in the next election. If a man steals from another, we judge him and put him into jail. In the same way I do not see anything wrong in making a judgement on someone who claims to be a muslim but lives an un islaamic way of life. A very famous man said "my religion is not what I believe but how I live my life and what I do in this world".
2 Mr Zinger is right about all the islaamic things we do, like reciting prayers and roza and hajj etc but these are only rituals. They help us come together. But performing these rituals is not enough. We have to have the heart of a muslim and live according to the dictates of the Quraan and the example of the Prophets life. This requires constant learning and descipline to live like "firishtas", like perfect human beeings ; living with the fear of God in our hearts, in the service of God and His Creation in all its form.
Performing all the right rituals without living true to the teachings of The Quraan is like wearing all the right uniforms of a Doctor or a pilot and not knowing much about medicine or not knowing how to fly an aeroplane.

FMHASSANALI bhai, i have a query for you, WRT to the 2nd point. How many people do you know of who ACTUALLY live according to the dictates of the Quran? Maybe no one. Certainly not anyone on this board, going by the way they abuse fellow Dawoodi Bohras and the Dai. Certainly not any sect of of Muslim which is more bent on killing the minority sects than anything else.

Show me 1 perfect Muslim IN THIS WORLD TODAY

humanbeing wrote:

true_bohra wrote:N pls get ur mind clear about shirk n we never worship Syedna(TUS)......

Ha ha ha ha !!

i have said it before, i am saying it again. maybe your family and your friends did it. then they are to be blamed. they are foolish. we do not, as a rule, worship Syedna.

FMHASSANALI wrote:I would like to make an addendum to what I observed above.
I am told that education per se is not frowned upon by our religious leaders because many of the Bhaisabs have been highly educated in the west; they are engineers and proffessors in western colleges. So why is it that the lay person is not encouraged to persue education? Why are there no Bohora high school and colleges? Why are our ladies not encouraged to study. Are the leaders afraid that an educated mass will see the light and begin to question the authorities, and demand change?
May God open their eyes to what is right.

that my friend, is where you are wrong. ladies have ALWAYS been encouraged to get an education. My nana, inspite of being a a devout abde, got all his 4 daughters educated till a BA degree (40 years ago, BA was more important than B.Com. unless one would like to argue that B.com would have been more educative, cause people with no work in life will always look for holes to poke) What the Mansoos has said is an aberration, the reasons of which, i am not sure why,

zinger wrote:Show me 1 perfect Muslim IN THIS WORLD TODAY

You asked for 1, I'll show you 2:

1. The 52nd Dai ul Mutlaq, Dai al Fatemi, Dai uz zamaan - Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin (TUS)

2. Mansoos of the 52nd Dai ul Mutlaq Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin (TUS) - Syedi AaliQadr Mufaddal Saifuddin (TUS)

Hi progticide..
good to see you on this forum...
Just few hours back there..your name was mentioned on another thread...

progticide wrote:

zinger wrote:Show me 1 perfect Muslim IN THIS WORLD TODAY

You asked for 1, I'll show you 2:

1. The 52nd Dai ul Mutlaq, Dai al Fatemi, Dai uz zamaan - Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin (TUS)

2. Mansoos of the 52nd Dai ul Mutlaq Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin (TUS) - Syedi AaliQadr Mufaddal Saifuddin (TUS)

These are the two guys responsible of me leaving the Cult of Bohrism

@ Asad and Aftaab - A genuine, straight-from-the-heart query to the 2 of you...

Why are you guys still hanging around here? Looking for converts? why not preach other Muslims to first be better human being first and then preach us to be better Muslims???

I would being a good human being is more important than being a good Muslim

progticide wrote:

zinger wrote:Show me 1 perfect Muslim IN THIS WORLD TODAY

You asked for 1, I'll show you 2:

1. The 52nd Dai ul Mutlaq, Dai al Fatemi, Dai uz zamaan - Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin (TUS)

2. Mansoos of the 52nd Dai ul Mutlaq Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin (TUS) - Syedi AaliQadr Mufaddal Saifuddin (TUS)

thanks Progiticide bhai but my question was for these guys since they always claim "amme to reformist bohra che, e loka to abde dawoodi bohra che. e lokon su jaane muslim kone kewaye"

zinger wrote:@ Asad and Aftaab - A genuine, straight-from-the-heart query to the 2 of you...

Why are you guys still hanging around here? Looking for converts? why not preach other Muslims to first be better human being first and then preach us to be better Muslims???

I would being a good human being is more important than being a good Muslim

you cant be even good animal until you leave hypocrisy, even a dog knows he should not be faithful to his master enemy, and if you think Mola ALI is your master then you must oppose every thing which defames his name.

but here I can see you constantly try and defend those who are really bringing shame to life of mola ALI by their ayyashi and wrong teachings and acts.

why not fist become a good animal and then try to become a human?

zinger wrote:i shall certainly try and be a good animal.

As for you, i have given up hope because you have just devolved to a level lower than mine.

I shall pray for you to be able to redeem yourself in your own eyes

I consider my self dog of house of Imam Ali and prophet Muhammed(s)

so dont worry about me, I will do fine.

Aftaab wrote:

zinger wrote:i shall certainly try and be a good animal.

As for you, i have given up hope because you have just devolved to a level lower than mine.

I shall pray for you to be able to redeem yourself in your own eyes

I consider my self dog of house of Imam Ali and prophet Muhammed(s)

so dont worry about me, I will do fine.

I didnt mean to carry on this conversation any further and hence deleted my post before it could be replied to. guess i was a little late.

im not worried about you. im sure you will do fine.