"The lion shall lay down with the lamb."

[serendipity]

HELLO SYEDNA...ALLAH CALLING! Please take note of how I speak to you through NATURE as well as Scripture. You stand indicted in the Court of My Divine Mercy and Compassion. As I have spoken through the Prophets, of a time when the lion shall lay down with the lamb, so EVEN AS YOU ARE BLOWING AWAY the beautiful and majestic creatures of My Hand, on your heinous shooting SAFARIS, a LIONESS IN KENYA is baffling all of the scientific experts with her loving and peaceful adoption of 5 antelope babies, whom she is PROTECTING instead of eating! A reversal of Nature, you ask? Only to someone who has become hardened by crimes AGAINST Nature...blinded to MY PROMISE that the Time I spoke of is indeed NEAR at hand! Believers remain faithful. Heed the Signs, and rest assured. I shall deal with my wayward servant.

[Humsafar]

You can say that again. Kuods.

[nausicaa]

Nice one, but I very much doubt Syedna reads this board.

-N

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Dear Serenpidity: your newly found friend Br Qiyam is not commenting on this hunting topic as he fully endorses Syedna for this sinful act eventhough in his heart he knows this is wrong!Well what can we all do? let us mobilise a world opinion thro internet etc against him!

[qiyam]

Dear Mhd. Hussain/Serendipity,
I have nothing to comment...because it is not my business to critic Sayedna's action...when it is not un-Islamic. You have your own opinion...so does PETA...but these are all opinions. There is nothing in the Quran or Sunnah forbidding hunting.

In the US, we have official national seasons for hunting deer and fish and other animals that are legal for hunting. It's even encouraged. In Tanzania, hunting elephants and other animals are legal if authorized. Has Sayedna broken any law, religious or secular? NO! It is your own opinions that it is wrong based on your personal feelings.

We've had this discussion on other threads...and I replied the same.

[porus]

What is the difference between these two actions?

1. You kill an animal to feed yourself. You do not feel pleasure at killing the animal but may feel pleasure when consuming it.

2. You kill an animal for no reason except that ypou just love the thrill it gives you. It is a pleasure.

'As long as Quraan does not forbid it, it is ok' is a standard cop-out of a perverted religious mindand its inability to use 'Aql'.

By same token, it is ok to own slaves. Forget hadith, they are all fabricated by shia and sunni and all other varities of muslims and non-muslims.

[noor]

syedna is going there like a mere puppet and he is being pressurized by his nears and dears. The shazadas and the delegation accompanying syedna will make the best use of this hunting tournament. They are using syedna's name in each and every action thay make so that people with no "Aql" will obey and do as thay say. Can we ever imagine that syedna holding a rifle and is shooting at an elephant so that later after having shot the target the elephant will make "sajda"? Huh! The shazadas and the delegation with syednas are killers. This is purely nonsense that people should understand that right from the begining. After all, it has become their annual trip in Shaban to kill mercilessly those animals.

[qiyam]

Dear Porus,
"'As long as Quraan does not forbid it, it is ok' is a standard cop-out of a perverted religious mindand its inability to use 'Aql'."

---This statement is infact your opinion of what is perverted and not. Artist see no perversion in a nude body...while others do. A poet sees no perversion is glorifing a sexual or exotic experience in words...while others do. 30 years ago, in the US, it was a perverted act for any white man to be sitting with a black man.

In the West, hundreds of thousands of animals (cattle, chicken, pigs) are killed every day for sport and consumption...which if not bought within I believe 8 hours time is trash in the garbage. Yes...this is much better than what the Dai does.

Maybe you should get off you high pedestal of morale...which you must have created...because you mock every other formal morale bases that exist today.

As in conclusion, yes..if the Quran doesn't forbid it, it is ok. High end computers, exotic cars, 52" televisions, eating cheesecake, traveling across the world, buying leather clothing and accessories, hunting, boating, etc. and all the other excessive tendancies of the world are all allowed...but it is better to be simple.

[Muslim]

Is <a href="http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2002/ ... icrowaving puppies</a> forbidden according to Quran?

[qiyam]

One point I forget:

I wrote it is better to simple....but it is the personal choice of the person in that means. It is not a right for me to tell another persons what is excessive and not...what he/she should do or not. It is a personal choice.

Br. Porus..if you by a BMW cars...which base model start at $35,0000...it is your right to do so. I cannot tell you that you are wasting money that could feed thousands in 3rd world countries or that you could send hundreds of people to college for a year. No..I have no right to do so. It is just my opinion.

So what gives you the right to say something about Sayedna hunting as wrong or right?

[qiyam]

Dear Muslim,
Actually killing an animal in a cruel fashion is not allow. This why either zabiha is recommended or shooting.

[Muslim]

Stupid comparison. Zabeh is for eating, not for fun. Do you do zabeh for fun? Shooting an animal for fun is not cruel?

Kotharism SUCKS!

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Br Qiyam; As i understand it the killing of animals is allowed as long as you are going to consume them later according to Quran- Do you dispute this or can you quote any ayats in Quran allowing indiscriminate killing of animals?

[qiyam]

Dear Muslim,
Zabiha is a method of killing an animal that the Prophet taught. It makes the animal halal to eat. It doesn't means anyone has to eat that meat...just to makes it allowable to eat because of the removal of blood.

I did not compare the two methods nor correalted them to hunting. I was responding to your posting of microwaving animals not being allowed.

Dear Mhd. Hussain,
"..killing of animals is allowed as long as you are going to consume them later according to Quran- Do you dispute this or can you quote any ayats in Quran allowing indiscriminate killing of animals?"

--The Quran and sunnah allows hunting for food (halal) and trade. Game hunting in africa is its second largest industry...first in Tanzania. So hunting in Dar Salam was nothing shocking. So comes the question of the purpose of hunting in this case...that is was the meat wasted or not for trade. Does anyone have an account of what the meat and skin and tusks of the animals that were shot by Sayedna were done with. I can guarantee you the animal weren't left to waste but donated to the local economy and people.

See the following site:
http://www.customosteo.com/huntingadven ... ilize.php3

[Humsafar]

The example of white/black man you give indicates that as humans we are making progress, generally speaking. With time we are fine-tuning our values and attitudes towards one another and towards the world we live in. The Quran lays down the law on many things, big and small. But pls understand that the quranic tenets are based on the moral/social codes of its time. Yet, what makes the Quran unique is that most of its commandments still hold true. No wonder Muslims use the Quran as a touchstone for their thoughts and actions. At the same time, it is wise to see the Quran as providing general principles to guide ones life. In today's world, to live a compassionate and humane life it is not enough to seek validity from the Quran alone. The Quran does not encompass all the absolutes for all times. There are realities and situations beyond the scope of the Quran.

You are likely to berate this as "personal opinion", but personal opinion are not born out of thin air. They are formed through "cognitive encounters with reality". In other words, aql is the basis of opinion. By the same token, the Aql (with a capital A) is the basis of the Quran (Bible etc.). The holy books contain nothing but opinions canonised through time and tradition. This is not to say they have no value. The wisdom and truths of their specific age are embedded in the Books. So are the wisdom and truths of our age are embedded in our "personal opinions". And the two need not be contradictory. In fact, they can complement each other if the intention is to do good.

Seen from this perspective, hunting may be okay going by the Quran, but it is morally reprehensible in a world where we strive for compassion and humanity.

I'm glad you prefer simplicity. Our hope is our spiritual leader would do the same. Truth, justice, mercy lie in simplicity not ostentation. And this is an opinion consecrated by time and tradition.

[qiyam]

Just a general comment:
Before many of you make accusations and judgement...do a little research before saying it...or at least ask the question first.

Many of you have said hunting is haram and slandered Sayedna regarding it. As I have stated..it is not haram if it for food or trade. Hunting in Africa, as in the US, is for trade. The animal are not killed and leave the animal to die in pain. In Africa gaming parks, the management make sure the animal is dead...and either take the carcass to be sold or leave it for scavangers to eat within the park.

[Muslim]

Oh I get it, Sayedna is in the ivory business.

[qiyam]

Dear Humsafar,
I can honestly say I appreciated your post. I only disagree from my point of view (opinion)

"Seen from this perspective, hunting may be okay going by the Quran, but it is morally reprehensible in a world where we strive for compassion and humanity."

--My opinion is that hunting is perfectly find if it is for food and trade. You see I live in a society were sport hunting is a large part of the economy...though I don't hunt (but know how). I see the benefits in it both for the hunter and the one's providing the equipment, land, animals, and facilities. In that same society, I buy my meat from a store who sells halal meat (I do zahiba of my own once a year only). I never see the farm, food, or the people that raised that animal that was killed, so the butcher could sell the meat, and that I may buy and consume it.

You see..what you call compassion and humilaty in your scheme of thing doesn't exist in 70% of the world. Majority of the world, which includes 80% of the muslims...hunt for their food and hunt to sell food. The game parks provide a controlled means of hunting animals...where the meat goes to someone else for free.

"I'm glad you prefer simplicity. Our hope is our spiritual leader would do the same."

---simplicity...if you think about includes hunting your own food or someone else's food. So my leader is performing a simple person's act.

"Truth, justice, mercy lie in simplicity not ostentation. And this is an opinion consecrated by time and tradition."

---Yes...this is true...only if you know all the facts.

[qiyam]

Dear Muslim,
Actually ivory selling is illegal in all of Africa, except to Botswana, Namibia and Zimbabwe a special exemption to export ivory to Japan on an experimental one-off basis.

Sorry, try again.

[serendipity]

RE: Humsafar saying "The wisdom and truths of their specific age are embedded in the [Quran & Bible]....Seen from this perspective, hunting may be okay going by the Quran, but it is morally reprehensible in a world where we strive for compassion and humanity." SUCCINCTLY PUT, KIND BROTHER! I might also add a HISTORICAL COMPARISON to further drive home this point: ALL MEDIEVAL MONARCHS HUNTED! So did the last Imam of Zahir, Imam Amir (AS), who was a medieval monarch, NOT a modern dai. We have always been told that we must respect RANK in the Ismaili order of things! Well, in addition to living in A DIFFERENT AGE, Imam Amir had titles, responsibilities, and privileges that a Dai should NEVER make pretension to. Furthermore, let it be noted for the historical record that the good Imam used HAWKS AND FALCONS for hunting, not scoped rifles!! In addition to being an esteemed MEDIEVAL TRADITION, it was an HONORING of the natural scheme of things, much as NATIVE AMERICANS did before the white man came.

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Br Qiyam: Do you still beleive that 91 year old Syedna who can barely lift his head up & possibly with some ailments can hunt an animal?Or is this a some sort of publicity stunt for Kothar?I think it is time for him to show compassion to the suffering mumins in Gujarat & those poor defenseless animals!

[porus]

From:

http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=1277

The Case Against Sport Hunting
By Camilla H. Fox

API National Campaign Director Camilla Fox was invited by North American Hunter magazine to submit a piece on the animal rights perspective of sport hunting. This is what the editors received.

The Animal Protection Institute (API), a national nonprofit organization with 85,000 members and supporters, is dedicated to protecting animals from cruelty and exploitation. API opposes the killing of animals for "sport" on the grounds that it is contrary to public sentiment, ecologically destructive, unnecessary, and unethical.

Public opinion polls consistently show that the majority of Americans oppose the killing of animals for "sport" or "recreation." Fewer than 6% of Americans hunt today -- roughly half as many as in the early 1970s. On the other hand, participation in non-consumptive wildlife activities has increased dramatically over the last decade. Today, more than 31% of Americans enjoy some form of wildlife-watching recreation. Still, wildlife agencies continue to "manage" wildlife and habitat to ensure a healthy supply of "game" animals for hunters and a constant source of revenue from license sales. Non-game and endangered species and habitat protection programs, however, remain chronically underfunded.

Sport hunters argue, often vehemently, that they are true conservationists. However, conservation in the hunter's mind seems to mean ensuring an adequate supply of targets, often at the peril of non-hunted native species. A recent study in the Wildlife Society Bulletin cites numerous examples of hunter groups resisting and even impeding efforts to restore native wildlife or to protect biodiversity. According to the World Conservation Monitoring Centre, 29% of avian species and 54% of mammalian species currently threatened or endangered are still jeopardized by hunting. The U.S. Sportsman's Alliance -- the largest sport hunting lobbying group in America, representing more than 1,000 sportsmen organizations -- has attempted to dismantle the Endangered Species Act and actively promotes polices that destroy wildlife habitat. How is this consistent with conservation?

Perhaps most disturbing to Americans is the idea of killing for "sport." Sport implies two players on an equal playing field. Where is the sport in shooting captive-raised elk on game farms? Or in chasing down coyotes and wolves with aircraft and snowmobiles? Or in baiting black bears with jelly donuts to shoot them from the safety of a nearby tree? Some hunters argue that bowhunting has brought back the fair chase in hunting. But where is the fair play when one animal escapes wounded for every animal killed? If sport hunters are truly interested in good sportsmanship then why haven't more hunters challenged these practices?

Fortunately, sport hunting is declining as fewer and fewer Americans find pleasure in killing animals for recreation. Many former hunters find the spiritual connection with nature and thrill of stalking and shooting an animal with a camera or binoculars. Indeed, the three fastest-growing outdoor activities among persons 16 years or older in the United States are birdwatching, hiking, and backpacking.

<B>It is our hope that when hunters come to truly empathize with the animals they wound or kill and see them as sentient beings -- as many hunters eventually do -- they will stop hunting. The evolution toward a more compassionate relationship with animals is evident and should be commended. Hunters would do well for themselves -- and the animals they purport to conserve and revere -- by also making this great leap forward and calling off the hunt.</B>

[Muslim]

Actually ivory selling is illegal in all of Africa, except to Botswana, Namibia and Zimbabwe a special exemption to export ivory to Japan on an experimental one-off basis.

I was being sarcastic. But actually, today ivory trading is banned worldwide. Of course, that doesn't prevent it from happening.

[mo]

Listen Qiyam botom line is wheteher islamically hunting is ok or not IT does not look good for a so called spiritual leader to go on hunting trips with our money mind you east africa jamat funds these idiotic trips.imagine if the pope went hunting! Seyedna would gain more world respect if he put a stance on animal conservation. Bohras should step out of the medieval age and smell the air of current world trends and opinions or is it that seyedna is too busy minting his millions that he is not aware of what is happening in the world.
in kenya people are making a laughing mockery on bohras you get comments like when is your chief hunter comming to kenya man i personally feel a person who can kill for fun in this day in age has nothing spiritual about him.
Maybe he should choose either enjoy the pleasures of life like hunt or be the dai al mutlaq in which case step down and let some one who is in touch with the world lead an allready fragmented suppressed community.

[qiyam]

Dear Porus,
Nice article for a PETA supporters. I love all animals...but I also know they were put on this earth for humans to eat (from an Islamic point). In the US, hunting is promoted by the gov't as a means to control the populations of the animals the their habits. This also goes for fishing as well.

Whether you like it or not...this is your choice...but again, you have no right to tell someone else what is right and wrong based solely on your opinion. Legal hunting is regulated and sometimes a necessacity.

Dear Mhd. Hussain,
That 91 yrs old man prays more rakats in a day than the vast majority of his followers (not sitting in a chair either). He travels throughout the world so that his followers can see and hear him. He sits for 4-5 hrs at a time for 10 days straight during ashara and gives bayan and matam every years. He leads the imtehan of the Jamia every years (which last for 2-3 days).

After reading this list...how hard is it to fire a rifle for him??? He doesn't have to hunting for his followers admiration...they already admire him regardless of hunting.

Dear Mo,
Couple of points:
1.) you agree now hunting as Sayedna doesn't is Islamically correct.

2.) to a vast majority of world hunting is an everyday activity...especially in africa...so on this matter your opinion is in the small minority.

3.) If hunting is in the medival ages...than most of the western countries...actually most of the world is in the medival ages still than.

4.) "in kenya people are making a laughing mockery on bohras you get comments like when is your chief hunter comming to kenya man i personally feel a person who can kill for fun in this day in age has nothing spiritual about him."

---You obviously have never been to Kenya..or Africa to make such a comment. I was born there and have relatives there! It is major industry both in Kenya and Tanzania..but it is regulated strongly.

[ponga bhori]

".....to go on hunting trips with our money mind you east africa jamat funds these idiotic trips...."

He cares 2 F..ks for the bohras. And it is his moneys anyway to begin with ( Qs arguement )

He proves that he will continue to do what he wants no matter what the public opinion is.

[porus]

Whether you like it or not...this is your choice...but again, you have no right to tell someone else what is right and wrong based solely on your opinion. Legal hunting is regulated and sometimes a necessacity.

Dear Qiyam,

What right do you claim to advise me not to tell others what I think they should and should not do?

Pest Control involves killing but I do not take pleasure in that. Frankly, I detest it and it costs money.

Islamically speaking, can you say Quran allows killing elephants, tigers etc for fun? It may not forbid it. How about having sex with minors or giving drugs to school children. does Quran forbid those? If not, is that ok?

And please do not quote hadith. Ahadith are compilations and I do not totally trust them, especially those from Shia, Sunni, and all other varieties of Muslims and non-Muslims.

Of course not. To participate in a healthy society means persuading others to your point of view. It also means questioninging all authority including that of God, which is just a human projection of infantile need for a father figure.

You want to regulate populations of animals, as opposed to pests harmful to humans? Let us find more humane ways. After all, we have learnt a lot about regulating human population. We can do the same for other animals.

And when did Sayedna tell his flock that wild game animals in Africa are in need of regulating intheir numbers and he is heading to do his bit in the process? I would advise him to go there with pest control items to regulate the population of tse-tse or something other creature. Elephants are not going to harm humans, tse-tse do.

[serendipity]

RE: Qiyam TO Porus "yes..if the Quran doesn't forbid it, it is ok. High end computers, exotic cars, 52" televisions, eating cheesecake, traveling across the world, buying leather clothing and accessories, hunting, boating, etc. and all the other excessive tendancies of the world are all allowed.... Maybe you should get off your high pedestal of morale which you have created."
Br. PORUS, far BETTER to occupy the high ground! Certainly don't expect the world or "worldly clergy" to do it...nor will they offer to look in the MIRROR for you, unless you're prepared to pay CASH.

[qiyam]

Dear Porus,

"What right do you claim to advise me not to tell others what I think they should and should not do?"
---I did not say you have no right to voice your opinion and to tell others about...but it is wrong for you to take the high horse and say I or anyone else is wrong for having an opinion or doing something I feel is correct.

"Islamically speaking, can you say Quran allows killing elephants, tigers etc for fun? It may not forbid it. How about having sex with minors or giving drugs to school children. does Quran forbid those? If not, is that ok?"

---The Quran neither supports nor denies game hunting. The Prophet allowed it within the two limits of food and trade. Regarding sex with minors...it is forbidden unless the person has reached puberty which means the person is not a minor. Also the sex must be within the confines of marriage to begin with. Drugs by their very nature are mind altering and therefore are haram.

"Of course not. To participate in a healthy society means persuading others to your point of view. It also means questioninging all authority including that of God, which is just a human projection of infantile need for a father figure."

---This is find for you...but that was not the original objection...the objection was from an islamic viewpoint, which is what the rest of your commentary is NOT from or dealing with.

[qiyam]

Dear Serendipity/Porus,

"Br. PORUS, far BETTER to occupy the high ground! Certainly don't expect the world or "worldly clergy" to do it...nor will they offer to look in the MIRROR for you, unless you're prepared to pay CASH."

---Actually as I wrote...the high pedestal CREATED BY HIM. From my point of view...Porus has little contact with the nature world nor ecology to begin with. He argues the right of insect versus the rights of humans versus the rights of animal...while understanding little of the interaction between the two. Regarding you last comment...maybe you should look in the mirror too...before making comments of others. You have little knowledge of their personal lives let alone their public ones. Allah loves the humble...not the pompous.