Sexual activity outside marriage within Bohra

[Bohra spring]

I think to do justice to reform movement we need to discuss topics that affect most households n modern times . bohras being shy are reluctant to discuss and resolve matters publicly. I also don't have confidence in kothars capability to systematically address this. Let us hope we discuss as a United ..this is not PDB or Abde issue ..it is a community issue.

Let's discuss sexuality , how active are our youth sexually before marriage .

When I was growing up HIV was quite rampant in Africa so I was always fearing getting aids so in University I tried hard not to get tempted . However I remember in Africa some Bohra youth have died from the disease . In some cases they were accidents while some youth we're know to visit prostitutes.

There are other std that one can get and unwanted pregnancy . I am worried about my kids but am happy their school has started teaching them early ...hopefully we will start discussing sex education soon with them.

I also know many married men , one is a Shiekh in my city who is known to visit prostitutes.

When I was in twenties some older Bohra youth tried to introduce me to Saturday strip parties where men would hire a hotel room, invite a striptease and later the girl will take offers for sex in the next room. The older Bohra boys insisted I try no one would know, I was already dating aa Bohra girl and was taking scholarly Islamic education so fortunately I refused and disassociated with the group.

I also know of Bohra women and men who swing and exchange partners, they call "key party". This is where men drop car keys in a hat or pot and on the way out women pick any key and that's the guy for the night . This is big in Kenya and Tanzania . There are plenty of cases where Bohra men and women have affairs behind their spouses. So any one thinking this is isolated is naive.

Point is discuss and address the issues , we may not eliminate but as a society need to support the victims.

[SBM]

It is among Dawoodi Bohra who started having long engagements and then having the girl spend months away from her own family and parents with her finace and would be in laws. This custom is so widespread that the girl even goes overseas where she has no relatives of her own and can be an easy pray of sexual misconduct by her would be husband or his relatives.
Stop this nonsense under the pretense of girl bonding with her would be in laws and would be husband

[Deerseye]

Yes, sexual activity outside marriage does exist, not only in big cities of India but also in two tier cities. What could be the reason for this??? As I see it lack of quranic understanding has made our youngsters insecure. Lack of education and early marriage is also a problem.mass nikah functions have led to a high divorce rate, I don't know the situation in the west, but these problems do exist in india. Compulsion on rida, dadi and topi is not going to create character in any society, youth needs role models. And we have been incapable in developing culture in youth.sometime back I had put up my daughters profile on the matrimonial site, since then I have been flooded with calls at all unearthly hours and vulgar messages. I was shocked, I didn't expect bohra boys to indulge in such activities, now I'm wiser.

[seeker110]

Role models are suppressed from action by the Kothar Inc., My cousin brother was asked not to help when the riots happened in Bombay. He was told to mind his own business by the Amil. All he wanted was to save the people whose houses were burnt down. He had access to several cars.

[anajmi]

So I guess he just followed the Amil's orders right? Maybe you should take him with you to touch the fake Alum and feel like a fake brave soldier the next time around eh? Since he missed his opportunity to be a real brave soldier.

[ghulam muhammed]

It is very saddening that a community which was once known for its integrity and high morals is now aping the western culture albeit in the wrong way. There are innumerable cases of extra marital relationships in cities like Surat and Godhra, a fact which is hard to digest but sadly it is a fact, believe me I know of many such cases first hand. The irony is that it consists of women who are 24x7 in rida and attend every mikat, milad, urus, ashura, darees etc. on a regular basis. This proves that the huge gatherings one sees on religious occasions does not necessarily consist of pious people who follow Islam as shown by Panjatan Pak a.s. Not only extra marital affairs but even prostitution is rampant in many such cities, a fact which was proved by a Police Inspector of Surat, contents of which were posted on this site some time back.

[zinger]

It is very saddening that a community which was once known for its integrity and high morals is now aping the western culture albeit in the wrong way. There are innumerable cases of extra marital relationships in cities like Surat and Godhra, a fact which is hard to digest but sadly it is a fact, believe me I know of many such cases first hand. The irony is that it consists of women who are 24x7 in rida and attend every mikat, milad, urus, ashura, darees etc. on a regular basis. This proves that the huge gatherings one sees on religious occasions does not necessarily consist of pious people who follow Islam as shown by Panjatan Pak a.s. Not only extra marital affairs but even prostitution is rampant in many such cities, a fact which was proved by a Police Inspector of Surat, contents of which were posted on this site some time back.

GM, again, let me clarify.

95% of extra marital affairs are a result of an unhappy marriage. 5% is purely for pleasure, i agree

I know of atleast 2 cases in Surat myself, in one, the husband was impotent, in the other, the woman was forced into the marriage.

Again, prostitution is a sad, sad thing for the women. she got into it as a mean of supporting the family, no one enjoys being a prostitute, let me remind you.

mixing these 2 topics with religious piety is mischievous and malicious...

How many Sunni Muslims are involved in illegal activities? I've told you once before too, open the Mumbai Mirror and at least 2 crimes in it are committed by Sunni Muslims, they too, who purport to pray 5 times a day etc etc etc.

And they do it purely because they are too lazy to work hard or want the easy way out.

Every community has these vices. The parsi community has rampant pre-marital sex and extra-marital affairs going on all the time.

[Deerseye]

If any XYZ community is indulging in any vice it doesn't mean it's ok for bohras also to indulge in the same crime.it is by no means acceptable for any women to resort to prostitution to support her family.

[zinger]

If any XYZ community is indulging in any vice it doesn't mean it's ok for bohras also to indulge in the same crime.it is by no means acceptable for any women to resort to prostitution to support her family.

did i say its ok just cause some other community does???

Is that what you read in my post?

If you did, then i suggest you take a good, hard, long look at what i have written, once again.

i have said that this happens in every community.

As for the second part, deerseye, you must understand, that prostitution is absolutely the last, final resort that one would resort to. no woman would do it out of her own free will.

how do i know this? as part of the diploma in management, one of our subjects had us to do a project on social marketing (thats actually related to social service). our group had done it on prostitution. i dont remember the exact details now, but barring a handful who did it for pocket money, every other woman in the flesh trade was either pushed into it or got into it against her wishes

i know of one bohra sister. she lived in dubai. i will not take her name, but i know this as she is a distant relative.

her husband had become terminally ill. they had no money and because her husband was openly a non-believer, she was denied help from the jamaat.

she had to eventually relocate to india, lived in a chawl in a suburb of mumbai called nallasopara. she was working in a company as a receptionist and in the evening, as a servant and cooked in peoples home. she never asked anyone for money, even her parents did not know she had come back. this was 20 years ago so there was no email then.

even then, there was no way she could pay for the treatment and run the house at the same time. she had to eventually turn to the flesh trade.

her husband died just a few years later. we dont know if he ever found out what was going on, although he must have had his doubts.

in hindsight, one can always argue that she was stupid, should have approached her parents or family etc etc, but she was pretty much baraated from the community and her parents were firm believers.

since her husband died, she eventually quit and started a small business and today is doing much better in life. but..... she still carries the mental and emotional scars of those years in the flesh trade... and will do so for life.

Sounds like a filmy story doesnt it??? Let me assure you , its true. shit happens. prostitution is wrong, but then... let me leave you with something to ponder upon....

DO YOU REALIZE THAT IT IS BECAUSE THERE ARE PROSTITUTES IN THE WORLD, OUR MOTHERS, DAUGHTERS AND SISTERS ARE ACTUALLY SAFE TO A RELATIVELY LARGE DEGREE??? DID YOU EVER EVER STOP TO THINK THAT THE PROSTITUTES ACTUALLY ABSORB THE RAMPANT LUST THAT IS IN THE HEART AND MIND OF SO MANY MEN OUT THERE??? WHILE SOME MAY TREAT THEM WITH DISGUST AND OTHERS WITH PITY, HAS ANYONE EVER TREATED THEM WITH RESPECT FOR THE SERVICE THEY PROVIDE TO WOMENKIND ALL OVER THE WORLD BY ENSURING THEIR SAFETY

think about this brother. think about this...

[SBM]

How many Sunni Muslims are involved in illegal activities?

Zinger
So if Sunni or anyone else is doing anything wrong or illegal, it is ok for Dawoodi Bohra to do it , Are you justifying that 2 wrongs make one right
and BTW does not Syedna always says that we are Mumeen and we are better then phela Musalmano.. so now you justify the wrong by pointing fingers to other. Next you will justify Hilter also because Kothari Goons are giving the same treatment . Hilter send them to Gas Chamber and Kothari Masters are sending them to Kitchen
Sorry for this sad analogy but that is how it starts...

[Bohra spring]

Let us not degenerate into abde PDB issues! I want to encourage this topic to discuss something that kothar does not discuss but is important as a alternative common discussion.

If we are discussing generally that our cosmetic pious ness hides an underbelly of filth so be it.

DO YOU REALIZE THAT IT IS BECAUSE THERE ARE PROSTITUTES IN THE WORLD, OUR MOTHERS, DAUGHTERS AND SISTERS ARE ACTUALLY SAFE TO A RELATIVELY LARGE DEGREE??? DID YOU EVER EVER STOP TO THINK THAT THE PROSTITUTES ACTUALLY ABSORB THE RAMPANT LUST THAT IS IN THE HEART AND MIND OF SO MANY MEN OUT THERE??? WHILE SOME MAY TREAT THEM WITH DISGUST AND OTHERS WITH PITY, HAS ANYONE EVER TREATED THEM WITH RESPECT FOR THE SERVICE THEY PROVIDE TO WOMENKIND ALL OVER THE WORLD BY ENSURING THEIR SAFETY

How can prostitution protect our women ! This is a confusing statement . Rampant loose sex can bring diseases back. If you are talking lust...why are bohra marriages less pleasurable that they need external help ? You know what I mean.

Have we hit the issue on the head..our sexuality is boring ? Is that why we seek extra marital pleasure because husbands or wives are not performing !

I know Arab couples are very active in the bedroom, while India had Kama Sutra...there is logic in the civilisations , Islam is also very open and straight about sexuality.

In the Surah Baqarah (2:222), sex in married life is openly recommended: ‘When they [i.e., the wives] have cleansed themselves [after menstruation], you go into them as Allah has commanded.

One of the areas of Islamic sexual jurisprudence in which there are not many restrictions is the discussion of sexual techniques. Almost all of what is practiced under Islamic Law concerning sexual techniques and the act of sexual intercourse come from hadith, which are not restrictive in nature. The main tendency within these hadith are saying for Muslims to follow in the bedroom, saying which "clearly show that the husband and the wife should feel completely free when they are engaged in mutual stimulation which is known as foreplay. There is nothing wrong, according to Islam, for a woman to be active and responsive during sex."[Ahlul Bayt Digital Islamic Library Project 3] These sayings recommend foreplay, and put no real restrictions on the type of techniques used during foreplay or during actual intercourse.
Conversely, one area of sexual techniques that is generally prohibited is anal intercourse. In fact the opinions of many "mujtahids vary on the permissibility of anal intercourse. The majority of the Shi'ah mujtahids have derived two conclusions: (1) that anal intercourse is not haraam but strongly disliked (karahatan shadidah) provided the wife agrees to it. (2) and if she does not agree to it, then all mujtahids say that it is precautionarily wajib to refrain from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_se ... isprudence

The point about sex workers.
I have a person I know who works as professional by day and a hooker by night ..she does it because it pays very well and helps her live a lavish lifestyle .
Not every prostitute does it to get out of poverty. I understand in paces like India there may be slum dwellers and also high class. The person I am talking makes between $100 to $150 and hour and is busy 6 days a night ...in other words she makes twice what I earn , she does it by choice . There are other high end ones who even make bigger bucks.

[Qutbi-Hero]

As usual, Brother Zinger gives a polite, intelligent and measured response - and all you Heroes do is twist his words and argue back like ignorant buffoons...

These kinds of problems are in every society, in every corner of the world - no community is immune.

The way to look at the issue is this - how wide-spread is the problem?
Is it happening in the home of every single family, or is it just a few isolated incidents from time to time... well lets see and rank them accordingly :-

1) In the DB community it exists but at a very low level. Here in London I have barely heard of one or two instances, and maybe a few more in other parts of the UK. We are a pretty old-fashioned and traditional society who are still holding on to our Islamic values despite living in a Western country.

2) In the Reformist community this problem is much much bigger. I know of many families in the UK where girls are pregnant by outsiders and remain unmarried, where boys have made other girls pregnant and are running away from their responsibilities, I could go on all day about the things I've seen but suffice to say that it is precisely this lack of morality, that keeps DBs in the fold of the Jammat. None of us want this kind of disgusting behaviour for our children which is why we put up with the Kothar and their daylight robbery.

3) In the Sunni community, even worse is happening. A few cases can be considered part of life, but you can all Google the countless stories that are coming out here almost on a weekly basis. Things are at an epidemic level. Men and even young boys are getting involved with everything from rape, to child abuse to organised prostitution and sex slavery. It is sickening.
But it's not just the Sunni males who are becoming evil - even Sunni females are losing their morals completely. Nightclubs all across the country are full of Sunni girls, getting drunk, doing drugs and sleeping around with almost anyone. It's got so bad now that even young white and black boys know the difference between Sunni and Shia, as they always joke about how easy Sunni girls are for a one-night-stand. Again I could go on but it makes me sick to my stomach. Thankfully some brave Sunni Mosques are trying to tackle this growing evil by working closely with the British Government, but to be honest I think the damage is way beyond repair now.

Therefore looking at this objectively, we can see that DBs are the best out of everyone. There will always be a minority of problems but that is to be expected as we are living in a world full of Shaytaanyat. The point is that these problems are minimal and are staying minimal. Things are not spiralling out of control like they are with you Reformists and especially the Sunnis.

Before any Reformer or Sunni dares to point a finger at the DB community, they really should take a long look in the mirror... things are drastically worse with all of you,

[Bohra spring]

DBL how is that according to you orthodox Bohras are able to withstand temptations, what is in our society that is making our men and women "loyal" to their partners.

According to your records very isolated cases of bearded, topi wearing boys are flirting around ...let us hope your facts are true and congratulations.

You did throw a barb that reformist youth are more susceptible ...how do you keep track of the percentage of such incidences ?

[zinger]

How many Sunni Muslims are involved in illegal activities?

Zinger
So if Sunni or anyone else is doing anything wrong or illegal, it is ok for Dawoodi Bohra to do it , Are you justifying that 2 wrongs make one right
and BTW does not Syedna always says that we are Mumeen and we are better then phela Musalmano.. so now you justify the wrong by pointing fingers to other. Next you will justify Hilter also because Kothari Goons are giving the same treatment . Hilter send them to Gas Chamber and Kothari Masters are sending them to Kitchen
Sorry for this sad analogy but that is how it starts...

Good Lord... what is wrong with you people??? Are you not even reading what im writing properly???

I am saying it again.... shit happens in every community

[zinger]

Let us not degenerate into abde PDB issues! I want to encourage this topic to discuss something that kothar does not discuss but is important as a alternative common discussion.

If we are discussing generally that our cosmetic pious ness hides an underbelly of filth so be it. SORRY BS, YOU ARE NOT DISCUSSING IT, YOU ARE MAKING AN ACCUSATION. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN THE 2

DO YOU REALIZE THAT IT IS BECAUSE THERE ARE PROSTITUTES IN THE WORLD, OUR MOTHERS, DAUGHTERS AND SISTERS ARE ACTUALLY SAFE TO A RELATIVELY LARGE DEGREE??? DID YOU EVER EVER STOP TO THINK THAT THE PROSTITUTES ACTUALLY ABSORB THE RAMPANT LUST THAT IS IN THE HEART AND MIND OF SO MANY MEN OUT THERE??? WHILE SOME MAY TREAT THEM WITH DISGUST AND OTHERS WITH PITY, HAS ANYONE EVER TREATED THEM WITH RESPECT FOR THE SERVICE THEY PROVIDE TO WOMENKIND ALL OVER THE WORLD BY ENSURING THEIR SAFETY

How can prostitution protect our women ! This is a confusing statement . Rampant loose sex can bring diseases back. If you are talking lust...why are bohra marriages less pleasurable that they need external help ? You know what I mean. THERE YOU GO AGAIN. TWISTING STATEMENTS OUT OF CONTEXT. READ WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN. I HAVE SAID PROSTITUTES DESERVE RECOGNITION AND RESPECT FOR ABSORBING THE LUST THAT IS PREVALENT IN OUR SOCIETY WHICH WOULD OTHERWISE BE TARGETTED ON OUR WOMEN. AND WHERE THE HELL DID YOU COME UP WITH THIS IDEA OF BOHRA MARRIAGES BEING LESS PLEASURABLE AND NEEDING EXTERNAL HELP??? HELLO!!! WHICH PART ARE YOU READING? OR ARE YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT I AM SAYING???

Have we hit the issue on the head..our sexuality is boring ? Is that why we seek extra marital pleasure because husbands or wives are not performing !

I know Arab couples are very active in the bedroom, while India had Kama Sutra...there is logic in the civilisations , Islam is also very open and straight about sexuality.

In the Surah Baqarah (2:222), sex in married life is openly recommended: ‘When they [i.e., the wives] have cleansed themselves [after menstruation], you go into them as Allah has commanded.

One of the areas of Islamic sexual jurisprudence in which there are not many restrictions is the discussion of sexual techniques. Almost all of what is practiced under Islamic Law concerning sexual techniques and the act of sexual intercourse come from hadith, which are not restrictive in nature. The main tendency within these hadith are saying for Muslims to follow in the bedroom, saying which "clearly show that the husband and the wife should feel completely free when they are engaged in mutual stimulation which is known as foreplay. There is nothing wrong, according to Islam, for a woman to be active and responsive during sex."[Ahlul Bayt Digital Islamic Library Project 3] These sayings recommend foreplay, and put no real restrictions on the type of techniques used during foreplay or during actual intercourse.
Conversely, one area of sexual techniques that is generally prohibited is anal intercourse. In fact the opinions of many "mujtahids vary on the permissibility of anal intercourse. The majority of the Shi'ah mujtahids have derived two conclusions: (1) that anal intercourse is not haraam but strongly disliked (karahatan shadidah) provided the wife agrees to it. (2) and if she does not agree to it, then all mujtahids say that it is precautionarily wajib to refrain from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_se ... isprudence

The point about sex workers.
I have a person I know who works as professional by day and a hooker by night ..she does it because it pays very well and helps her live a lavish lifestyle . I ALREADY SAID IT. SOME WOMEN, LESS THAN 1% ACCORDING TO THE SURVEY WE HAD ACCESSED THEN
Not every prostitute does it to get out of poverty. I understand in paces like India there may be slum dwellers and also high class. The person I am talking makes between $100 to $150 and hour and is busy 6 days a night ...in other words she makes twice what I earn , she does it by choice . There are other high end ones who even make bigger bucks. GOOD FOR HER. I DONT SEE THE RELEVANCE TO IT HERE THOUGH

[Bohra spring]

Z get back to the point of the discussion...as we now accept promiscuity is widespread the. How do we as community and society stop the trend. That is assuming we want Islamic practises to flourish.

How do we discuss sex performance so that marriages are successful, our women are attractive, men are attractive. They ensure the bedroom is fulfilling and safe hence .

This is not a jibe but is fgM ruining sexuality? Leading men astray ?

Ensure our leaders are of best character so they lead by examples, so when we find out a sheikh who is performing adulterer , his or her position of authority is challenged . Western Politics also has character tests before they can become elected officials . So the concept has precedence.

Discussing and advising on sexual matters is acceptable islamically. SBM suggested the engaged partners are prone to allowing temptation control there desires. Well then we need to change the long engagement practises and replace it with direct nikkah. If youth want to experience sexuality let them do so under marriage conditions , however self restraint needs to be promoted and replaced by other activities where male hormones are expensed via sport or other rigorous activity.

Children are educated on the value of virginity for both female and male so youth make an informed choice, even though males there is no physical way of detecting.

Let us continue discussing how as a community we govern all aspects of life. That is true reform , a reform of civilisation.

[Qutbi-Hero]

DBL how is that according to you orthodox Bohras are able to withstand temptations, what is in our society that is making our men and women "loyal" to their partners.

Huh? Are you serious big guy? Something called Islam, and another thing called Culture. There will always be a few who have troubles, but as a whole, DBs are doing okay.

According to your records very isolated cases of bearded, topi wearing boys are flirting around ...let us hope your facts are true and congratulations.

Where are you located dude? What makes you think that bearded topiwallas are going to get any interest from all the hot and horny English girls in nightclubs lol!

You did throw a barb that reformist youth are more susceptible ...how do you keep track of the percentage of such incidences ?

It's not a barb, it's the truth bro. Ask anybody from the UK and they will tell you the same.

As for percentages, all we can do is take a guess based on our own experiences and anecdotal evidence. Also my perspective is from what I see happening amongst the youth, not so much the elders. Personally I worry about future, not the past...
Dawoodis = 2%
Apostates = 50%
Sunnis = 75%

More importantly, we have to look at whether things are getting worse, or getting better... so going back about 10-15 years...
Dawoodis = same as now
Apostates = 20%
Sunnis = 25%

So in my opinion, this problem is not growing within the DBs but has increased rapidly amongst the other communities just in a few short years.

Dude, it seems you want to tackle this issue head-on right now, which is fine... but as far as DBs are concerned, we don't really have a major problem. There is always room for improvement of course but I am not overly worried. Sure, there will always be some bad kids, but that is part of life and happens everywhere.

Tell me something though... why are you bringing this up? Are you going through some difficulties with your own kids right now?

[Bohra spring]

Tell me something though... why are you bringing this up? Are you going through some difficulties with your own kids right now?

It is so boring to read over and over typical abde reformist issues and name calling when the world is so much bigger and interesting. These are 2 topics that I wanted to stir broader discussion but I failed because I over estimated the participation and content expected. I have others and will bring them up later.

I am also measuring the capacity of the reformist movement as a social infrastructure that can lead reform ideas and make radical changes...and with One comment that we only have capacity to discuss corruption and transparency, how we lack of confidence to take on big issues head on.

When one reads and follows the catholic renaissance as I do they are taking on issues that people few years ago would be shy to discuss. Their renaissance started with the resignation of a pope and selecting a reformer.

Kothar has so much capacity where it has foresight to lead and come up with life changing ideas , even if ridiculous like tiffin can rally masses . What we do and we are good at it is react and follow and counter their ideas. Which means we are not innovative. We are followers even if all we do is oppose abde ideas.

I don't have issues with my kids, I am quite open after I have shared my learning sand experiences , my ideology for them to find their own way in the 21 st century western secular society as long as they are following the law and not trampling on someone's freedom . I am just putting controversial discussions to tickle your minds!

What is missing is a women's view to sexuality issues in the community ? Let us let them comment ?

[think]

women cannot comment. Take example of yemeni girls. kothar is very active in yemen and is throwing money left and right to get the yemeni's to accept bohri dai. To this end ,the kothar is even trying to mix breed yemeni girls to bohra boys. in yemen the girls of 7 and 10 year olds are sold off to yemeni men 40 and older and this custom is still practised. Many a abdes who could not find a girl in their hometown ,then approached the kothar to find a girl for them. Instead of selecting a girl from their indian community he has been married off to a yemeni girl. I wonder how this combination of two different cultures works out between an indian up bringing male and a yemeni girl. also would like to know if any bohra indian cultural women has married a yemeni boy and how things worked out as regards food, language and other customs.