Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Unity in the Community will be Restored only by the written Declaration by Sayedna Saheb to Stop Excommunication
On 28-02-05, under the name of some unknown Jamat, Anjumane-Burhani Shia Dawoodi Bohra Jamat in Udaipur , one Shabbir Mustafa and Yaqoobali Merchant has written one letter with their signatures and seal, addressed to the Secretary, Udaipur Bohra Youth Jamat. In Udaipur, there are two organisations of reformist Bohras, one Bohra Youth Association and another Dawoodi Bohra Jamat (Regd.) . Yagoob Merchant being an earlier associate of these organisations should know it better. But they are champion in misleading the community and also keeping an escape-rout for themselves.
The followers of Sayedna Saheb can not do anything without his permission, especially in the matters of Jamat and more so in the case of giving something in black and white.
Again it is clearly specified in this latter (given on page 1) that "Maula (T.S.)'s son Jaferus-Sadiq Bhaisaheb has sent this massage..."
Therefore it is an official letter of Sayedna Saheb written under direction of his son, Jaferus-Sadiq.
The letter says that "kitnak Apna bahiyo bichdi gaya chhe ane apne ahna see bichhdi gaya chhe ane jem ek tha tem ek thayee jayeea ...)(many of our brotheren have been disassociated from each others, we wish that they get united as they were before.)
It is an undeniable fact that not only in Udaipur but Bohras elsewhere in the world are divided due to the 'excommunication' (Baraat) imposed by Sayedna Saheb or in his name. If today there is a divide between the blood relations it is due to the Baraat imposed by Sayedna Saheb. The children from parents, wives from their husbands, sisters from their brothers are separated today it is because of imposition of Baraat by Sayedna Saheb.
In the present situation if Sayedna Saheb is desiring to see that orthodox and reformist Bohras get united and he is sincere about, and if this is not a part of Kothar's cunning strategy, and if it is not just to win over the present case in the Supreme Court against excommunication, then he should declare officially in writing to the community to stop excommunication (Baraat).
Sayedna Saheb should seriously think over the mistake his son Quid Johar made in Udaipur in 1972. Allow the community and Jamats at local level to work independently. There in No compulsion even in the matters religion in Islam. We are living in the age of human rights and civil rights. Today no one however powerful and mighty can dictate his terms and suppress others.
It is admitted in the letter under discussion that: "The Dawoodi Bohras (Mumineen & Muninat) were living a life peace and harmony, but due to some worldly reasons they got separated from each other."
What were those worldly reasons and who was responsible for them? What has changed now?
Who was responsible for declaring Baraat in 1972 in Udaipur and creating a divide? Who was responsible for most brutal attack on the innocent women of Bohra Youth in Galiakot? Who was responsible for playing holi with the blood of innocent devotees in the Moiyadpura Mosque? Dear Sayedna Saheb! that time you were in the heat of confidence to crush the sign of dissident and could not think over these questions. Think now and find the solution.
It was no one else but Sayedna Saheb himself who had issued a firman in writing to forthwith abolish the Bohra Youth Association. It was he who was present in the Galiakot shrine at the time of attack. It was he who had claimed the ownership of mosques in Udaipur.
Allah had given many opportunities to Sayedna Saheb to resolve the dispute with Bohra Youth but he did not avail it.
In the beginning of the dispute the leaders of Bohra Youth went to Rampura to meet him with folded hands deciding that if he wishes they would dissolve the Youth organisation and Urban Coop Bank far sake of unity in their city. But they were treated worst then dogs and returned with the resolution to fight it out.
The divide then was strengthened by a sudden attack in Galiakot and Moiyadpura mosque in Udaipur. The members of Sikh community were attacked in 1984. The P. M., Shri Man Mohan Singh had no participation in this attack so he had no hesitance in publicly apologizing for it. But Sayedna Saheb has neither condemned nor apologized for these attacks.
Thereafter a terror was spread against the Bohra Youth members not only in Udaipur but also all over.
Even then Allah gave one more opportunity to Sayedna Saheb to reconcile. 300 couples in Udaipur wanted him to perform their nikah. Many requests were sent to Sayedna Saheb but he ignored them. The couple then went to the Prime Minister, Mrs. Indira Gandhi who sent a Dawoodi Bohra Congress M.L.A. Saleh Abdul Kadar to Sayedna requesting him to perform the nikah. But Sayedna Saheb refused even her intervention saying, "Who is Indira Gandhi to advise me?" So one more opportunity was lost.
Today the case against Excommunication is on board in the Supreme Court and there Sayedna Saheb's men are going to reformist with folded hands saying "You forget whatever has happened and we also forget the past." It is quite convenient for the oppressors to forget the atrocities they had commited by it is not possible for the oppressed to forget their sufferings.
The letter under discussion says: "You forget whatever has happened and we also forget the past, it is for our benefit"
The benefit in forgiving the oppression is only for Sayedna Saheb who today has been caught in the Supreme Court cases against Baraat and Udaipur Masjid case in which he is a party claiming the owner of the mosques and that the prayers without his permission are invalid. These claims are un-Islamic.
Bohra Youth Udaipur has lost nothing by separation. All the mosques, Jamatkhanas, mazars, Jamat office etc. are under control of Bohra Youth. Beside this in last 30 years after independance from the slavery of Kothar it has made excellent achievements. The Udaipur Urban Cooperative Bank has opened new branches, the Bohra Youth Public School has been established and flourishing, Janata Medical Center is getting equipped with modern treatment machines and facilities. The members of Shabab are openly taking advantage of their bank, school, Medicare center and many are returning back to Bohra Youth from the exploitative Kothar.
Where as the members of Shabab are still holding their prayers and other functions in wadis of Hindus and Sayedna Saheb has not cared for them.
One son of Sayedna, Jaferus Sadik says in this letter that: "The members of Bohra Youth have got disassociated from us but they have not got separated."
Another son, Huzefa Mohiyuddin says in his affidavit in the Supreme Court that: "I say that the Reformists have distinct religious practices and beliefs giving them a separate and distinct identity quite separate from the mainstream of Dawoodi Bohras who are followers of Syedna." Is it hypocrisy to issue two contradictory statements through his sons?
In March 1998 Sayedna could enter Udaipur after 26 years by manipulating with then C.M. of Rajasthan, Bhairo Singh Shekhawat. There he flooded a troop of his Shahzadas and Shaikhs who went from house to house of the reformists requesting to come in misaq. After 15 days constant efforts he could manage to call back only 134 persons out of 7000 reformist in Udaipur. But a false worldwide propaganda was that all the members of Bohra Youth have taken misaq and there is no existent of Bohra Youth now. If they were right, why have they sent this letter now addressing to Bohra Youth?
Members of Bohra Youth in Udaipur and Reformists Bohras elsewhere were not separated. Sayedna Saheb had expelled them by declaring Baraat against them. If now Sayedna Saheb is wishing the unity in the community he should declare in writing to stop the practice of Baraat, not only in Udaipur but also all over the world.
Otherwise there is no use in sending such insincere and fictitious latter to us.

The truth and !@#$%* ratio in your post is 80 - 20.
Moiyed pura and Khanjipeer Mosque is an Example and what about the Mazars of Sayedi Khanjipeer and Sayedi Luqman ji and of course Musafir khana I had been there yaar

Now self declared progressives population is less than 4000 there .
Am I right ?

* calculated in bohri way ( there were two jamaats in Jamaat khana in Sau-izan now one only )

babu,
jalee kya...

It is a fact that for nearly 30 years the so-called "shababis" (pro-kothar bohras) in Udaipur did not have a jamaat to go to or a masjid to pray in. All of them have been under reformist control. The Khanjipir mosque is/was too small and remote (from the main mohalla) to make any difference to the equation. True, the mazars have been managed by the “shababis” but reformists’ way of life has not been affected in any way because of it. Nobody has ever dared to stop reformist from entering any of these sites. On the other hand, owing to reformists’ control of all Bohra properties in Udaipur a whole generation the “shababis” were like “orphans” without a mosque or a jamaatkhana. They were expressly banned by Sayedna sahib to share these sites with reformists.

As for the Moyidpura masjid, the "shababis" were given access to it only a few years ago by the court and only on the condition that reformists too can pray alongside with them (a condition which due baraat remained unacceptable to them until Kothar's expediency dictated otherwise). The masjid remains under court custody and remains locked at all times - except at prayer times or on religious occasions when it is opened by police guards permanently stationed there.

Now the “shababis” have a brand new mosque of course, but far away from the mohalla, built by community’s money and in due time will be wakf-ed to (gobbled up by) Dai.

It is true that reformists in Udaipur have dwindled in numbers over the years – and there are many reasons for it. I’ve commented on some of them elsewhere on this board. The point is, we may be fewer in number but we are still a significant pain in Kothar’s neck. Sayedna sahib still cannot come to Udaipur as and when he pleases. Also, no matter how many reformists remain, the reasons and principles behind the reform movement will continue to remain valid and vibrant.

Humsafar,

How is the current state of affairs between the two communities in Udaipur ? Do the shababis strictly follow the baraat or is there some commingling or interaction with the reformists ? Is the younger generation strictly one or the other based on family beliefs ,or are they split up ?

Just curious…..

AB,

Thanks for asking...

Shababis do not practice baraat anymore – it was lifted some years ago to prepare ground for the anti-excommunication case that Sayedna sahib is facing in the Supreme Court.

The two factions – shababis and reformist – now mingle very well on all social and extra-religious occasions, with marriages between two groups becoming common. But they still look like two distinct communities (if Spot were to go to Udaipur he would say reformist do not look like “bohras” at all). In terms of attidute and worldview they are world’s apart. Reformists display a sense of freedom and fearlessness that shababis can only dream about. An open mind and a healthy contempt for mullahs have been, among other things, the greatest achievements of the reform movement.

Administrative set up and religious dispensation within two groups are also separate and distinct. Shababis do not come to reformist mosques because prayer is led by a non-raza imam. And reformists do allow shababis to come to the jamaatkhana because they are not member as they belong to the orthodox jamaat. Also, the reason is more strategic: the fear is once shabibs are allowed into our jamaat, they will overwhelm us with their large numbers and overtake the jamaat. So, given the changing equation, reformists’ hold on community properties is very precarious. We are trying our best and it is critical that we win the court cases to maintain that hold.

Despite everything, reformists are very committed and their morale is high.

Monetary and moral support from sympathizers and well-wishers is always welcome.

Do you know about Fatehnagar ? Its a small town 50 KMS from Udaipur on Udaipur - Chittorgarh Road.
There were 10 Youthis Families, and now its ZERO.
so from where you got the figure "134" ???

babu bhaiyya...eik reformist bhi 1000 shababis ki pant geeli karne ke liye bahut hai...zara jhuk ke dekho...

mulla burhanuddin tumhe "quantity" or "quality" mein difference batana bhool gaye hai...

To,
Mr. Insaapf
So , This is your Quality? ( just read the posting of tahir saap )
WOW Grrrreat .. keep it up ...
this kind of people are in your group . and you are proud of them. Good Luck

babu...thanx for the appreciation...

Dear Babu, As for the families in Fatehnagar, I do not know the actual situation but please do not reducule them and do not take it as Fateh-mubeen for Sayedna Saheb. But try to understand how baraat is making lives of Dawoodi Bohras difficult and misarable and it must go. All reformists are not hard-rock and all are not having the family support as Abdulla Atahar in Sheoni or Tayyabi Zamindar in Ahmedabad or Batul bahen Kazi in Balsar. They are all alone but have remained firm till today.
When I said only 134 Bohras went back in misaq I was refering the Kothar's efforts in 1998. Thereafter I agree due to Kothar's new liberal strategy there are changes taking place. Bohra in Udaipur are shifting their stand on both side. Many who had gone in misaq then have retured to Bohra Youth too.
Sayedna Saheb in order to increase his strength in Udaipur is now asking Bohras from other places, especially from earth-quack and riot affected areas to go to Udaipur and sattle there saying that there is peace, prosperity and barkat for them. Today you find many new faces in Udaipur pulling ricksaws or doing labour jobs.
As for Bohra Youth's strength in number is concered, many youngster have taken higher education and have moved to to USA, UK and Kuwait.
I would request Tahir please do NOT adop the abusive culture of Kothar and restrain yourself. Ourside is much stronger and we need go that low.

To,
Mr. Insaapf
So , This is your Quality? ( just read the posting of tahir saap )
WOW Grrrreat .. keep it up ...
this kind of people are in your group . and you are proud of them. Good Luck

Babu...what should one conclude about the quality of dawoodi bohras and mulla burhanuddin's preachings by looking at the illustrous messages posted by you, mumu, mukhlish etc. Is ur "maula" proud of what u all post here? Is this what he tells u in waaz? Don't you reinforce ur and kothar's stereotypes by the third rate mischieves and abuses you indulge in?

No one on this board takes u guys seriously but just think of the outsiders who visit this site. Search the word "bohras" on google and this will be the first site out of 12700 results. Needless to say that anyone who wants to know about bohras will visit this site first. What impression will he/she take home about u and ur maula? Isn't it so easy to make the difference between the orthodox and progressives just by having a cursory look at the posts? You are actually making the reformists' job easy by portraying a negative image of ur community and ur "maula" in front of the world.

I have had enuf fun with u guys and am now bored of responding to ur repetetive mischieves but just wanted to hold a mirror in front of ur face before I actually stop replying to any of u characters.

Just think seriously.

oi thr,

Hum shababis tumari kebababis khaa kar ajam kar ke shit karlenge.

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Ourside is much stronger and we need go that low.
-------------------------------------------------
Sorry for typing error. Please read as:
Our side is much stronger and we have No need to go that low.

As I wrote Earlier ...
The post was not for Tahir

Mr.ASS(S)Insaf,
Whatever you have written is completly SHIT and full of LIES. i belong to udr.and know better whats happening or had happened there. Have u ever been 2 ur jamaat khana...the way they enjoy food one can never say they belong to muslims sect..u have become worst then KAAFIR. u say in 1998 only 134 people took MISAQ which is completly wrong. Dont forget that most of those GUYS were those people who had LED Bohra youth once. GULAM ABBAS,IBRAHIM ENGINEER. those were your LEADERS at one time, but they realised their mistake and came to the KADAM MUBARAK of AQA MAULA.
Dont just critisize DAAWAT, just by SHITTING on this FORUM you or your AZGAR(saanp)DAI will not gain anything.
This is 4 TAHR,
You are PRODUCTION of a GUTTER with GUTTER mentality. Mein nahi kehta...ur language says that u belong to MUNCIAPALTY's GUTTER. logo ki pant gili karwaate karwaate kahi apne AZGAR DAI ki pant gili mat karwa lena.
Meri ye baat sunn ker TERI PANT jaroor gili ho gayi hogi.

OOOOPS .. TOO HOT
Behave guys ....

To
Mr. INSAAPH
I wanna ask that if efforts are made by some people to get unite , what is your problem ?
Why you are against the process ?
may be U afraid that you will lost in the croud ?
politics naaa ?

You are PRODUCTION of a GUTTER with GUTTER mentality. Mein nahi kehta...ur language says that u belong to MUNCIAPALTY's GUTTER. logo ki pant gili karwaate karwaate kahi apne AZGAR DAI ki pant gili mat karwa lena

so this is what u guys are taught in the waaz, majlis and sabaks???...its good that all u characters are making ur reality known to the world by urself and saving our efforts....the dictionary of daawat is replete with words like jahannam, laanat, gutter, pant geeli, jalan, diapers, piss, dick, dogs etc....what a wonderful community... ..well done mr. burhanuddin

jab mulla -------------------- to UNITY ki baate karne laga...

<small>[ 08-17-2005, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Admin ]</small>

TAHR,
JALI KYAA.... I was quite sure that MY POST will make ur PANT GILI...BIRU "SACCH HAMESHA KARWA HOTA HEIN."

This is for all my slaves. I am formally announcing myself on this board. Henceforth my word will be the final word on all topics. If I say that I am a ..... than that is it. I will hear no arguments or else I will send laanat on all my slaves.

-----
Sorry, we cannot allow this user name. Please refrain from using bad words.
Thanks,

- Admin

<small>[ 08-18-2005, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Admin ]</small>

Sorry the electric power supply is still playing havoc in Mumbai.
Dear Azgar-killer, You are right. Gulam Husain Manager was the Chairman of Central Board when he crossed the floor. His betrayal was a great setback for us. That is why he was severely beaten up by a crowd of angry women a night before he went for misaq. When I met him in the morning that day he was still saying in his Rajasthani tone, “May Janoo hun’ ke misaq gulami khat hai. Misaq is a charter of slavery. I have quoted this at numerous places in my affidavit to Supreme Court. How can I make such a mistake” But by night that day I saw him, from a distance outside the shamyana where Mufaddal Bhai Saheb was waiting for Bohra Youth members to come and give misaq. Manager was quite nervous and was smoking cigarettes after cigarettes hiding and standing there. I had never seen him smoking before in my long association with him.
I do not know what committment he made to Shekhawat and got caught but I still feel he was caught unaware as he could not understand the politics played by Sayedna Saheb.
Sayedna Saheb had not bothered to come to Udaipur for 26 years after the shameful incident at Galiakot. But now since the sword of Excommunication case was hanging on his head he had to enter Udaipur to break all those who had appeared before the two inquiry commission. Sayedna Saheb understands very well the importance of outcome of this case. If he will looses the right to excommunicate he and his successors will also loose the claim of sole-trusteeship of community’s trusts and property.
So his establishment heavily bribed the state ministry in Rajasthan and won favour of then C.M. Bhairo Singh Shekhawat who called the reformist leaders, Ibrahim Engineer and Gulam Husain Manager to Jaipur under pretext of solving the dispute. The reformist Bohras had always insisted that untill Sayedna Saheb would not appologise for the outrageous incident that took place in his presence and until he would not allow the reformists to visit Galiakot, they will also not allow him to enter Udaipur. So a trap was spread and Sayedna agreed for an unconditional visit of the reformists to Galiakot and welcomed them there. As for the apology it was said that he would publicly appologise after reaching Udaipur.
More than 2000 reformists visited Galiakot and Sayedna entered Udaipur but he did not appologise. After 15 days efforts there he had realized that he cannot break the reformists and therefore he stopped going to Udaipur inspite of several announcements and preparations in Udaipur.
Dear Babu! How can reformists be against unity in the community? They have written several letters to Sayedna Saheb requesting him in most honorable way to arrange dialogue to resolve the dispute. But he did not even acknowledge them. Because we insist on accountability, democracy and freedom of conscious and Sayedna Saheb insists on slavery (Abde-Sayedna) and total submission (Amanna Saddaqna) there cannot be any dialogue with us. Baraat is an instrument of slavery for Sayedna but it is a curse for Bohras on both sides. So please see that it goes. Sooner the better.

OK now since Mr. Insaf has posted, we are waiting for babu, mumu, azgar killer, mukhlish etc. etc. to come and ridicule the reformists in general and Mr. Insaf and Mr. Engineer in particular. We are so anxious to hear from them allegations like "you are playing politics", "this is a big failure for you" etc. etc. We have also become addicted to the sweet and melodious slogans like "jalee kya", "jalte raho-jalte raho", "pant geeli" etc... . Oh babu dear, jaldi post karo pleeez...I can't wait!! (even if u dont want to talk to me... )

I am also waiting for babu to make a new id and claim "I am from udaipur and I know better than you Insaap"....

OK now since Mr. Insaf has posted, we are waiting for babu, mumu, azgar killer, mukhlish etc. etc. to come and ridicule the reformists in general and Mr. Insaf and Mr. Engineer in particular. We are so anxious to hear from them allegations like "you are playing politics", "this is a big failure for you" etc. etc. We have also become addicted to the sweet and melodious slogans like "jalee kya", "jalte raho-jalte raho", "pant geeli" etc... . Oh babu dear, jaldi post karo pleeez...I can't wait!!

No need to ridicule Tahir in particulr bcz ur above post suggests that u have already realized ur would be existance in Hell and seems u like all applicable words on u "pant gilli" "jalee kya" etc.

btw, Mr. In Saap, u r fortunate enough to get very loyal pet dog

Insaaf,

They have written several letters to Sayedna Saheb requesting him in most honorable way to arrange dialogue to resolve the dispute

As you have quoted in your post that you all reformist want to resolve the issue with dialogues. Can u let me know few things,
Have your reformist got any sort of respect for Moula. If yes then tell me why all the reformist abuses him time to time. You claim that your main issues are with the currupt kotharis and not with Sayedna Saheb right. But if we go across any of the posts on this site we will find lots and lots of abuses for Moula.
After doing such things you claim to resolve the issues with dialogues.
Its like a war between Pakistan(Reformist) and India(Bohris). At one side pakistan claims to resolve the issues by peace talks and on the other hand he sends his militants to carry out terrorist activities in India.
You all just have one issue in your mind and that to destroy the upcoming community (Bohras), for which you do not hesitate to use the old british formula of "Divide and Rule".

I do not know what committment he made to Shekhawat and got caught but I still feel he was caught unaware as he could not understand the politics played by Sayedna Saheb.

Mr.Insaap,
Ek kahawat suni hein naa....Hindi mein "Khisyani BILLI khamba noche". We too have learned STORY WRITING in the primary classes. but u r really great at writing such stories. Give us at least one genuine reason what forced GULAM MANAGER sacrifice his prinicpals and commitment towards you people that just by the words of any CM he crossed the BORDER without thinking about Bohra youth. If this is true then i m really impressed with CM Bhairon Singh. We need few more BhaironSingh's to give you SHOCK AFTER SHOCK.
Ek kaam karo INSAAP.
Akhbaar chhapte chhapte tum kahaniyan likhna acchi tarah jaan gaye ho...kiu nahi ek film ki SCRIPT likh dete...PICTURE khoob chalegi !!!

Originally posted by S. Insaf ( Diffrent posts ):
1. There a hospital behid Saifee Hospital known as Hinduja Hospital. It learnt that the staff, the machinaries and equiptments were brought from this hospital to Saifee hospital to show it to the public that Saifee hospital is already functioning.
2. After 15 days constant efforts he could manage to call back only 134 persons out of 7000 reformist in Udaipur.
3. The Udaipur Urban Cooperative Bank has opened new branches
4.Where as the members of Shabab are still holding their prayers and other functions in wadis of Hindus and Sayedna Saheb has not cared for them
5. Today you find many new faces in Udaipur pulling ricksaws or doing labour jobs.
6 . As for Bohra Youth's strength in number is concered, many youngster have taken higher education and have moved to to USA, UK and Kuwait.

To,
Insaaph Saap ,
What do you think ? Readers of this Forum are Chakrams ? yaar hosh di dawaa karo ,
Tuusse Great ho , Kuch bhi Kar Sakde ho Mogembo ki tarah,

1. Hospitals nu showroom banaa deettaa, you Said they brought the instruments on rent / Udhaar, its Difficult or impossible to digest by any one , its enough for someone to laugh on you and the Reporter who was paid by you . you should regret on it.

2.The Figure 134 is totally wrong .see this post from the fellow who is on the same Rikshaw (humsafar yaar )

Originally posted by Humsafar:
It is true that reformists in Udaipur have dwindled in numbers over the years

3. A Velly Chimple Question: Is the Urban Co-operative Bank is working under Islamic Law ?
4. The Shababs Prayers and other functions were held in Ajanta Hall,Burhani Hall and Tayebiyah School and these are not Hindus wadi/property.
5. There is no human pulling Rikshaw or even Cycle Rikshaw in Udaipur, Its not permitted by the Govt. from where did you got this news?
6. Many youngster are headed to abroad, correct; do they join any religious activity ?

Now a 'Suggestion' of course totally free of charge :
Plan a visit to Udaipur (Zaraa Haqeeqat se bhi DO DO Haath ho jaye, AASRA ke Airconditioned chamber se bahar nikal kar bhi dekh lo duniya kaisee hai )

Give us at least one genuine reason what forced GULAM MANAGER sacrifice his prinicpals and commitment towards you people that just by the words of any CM he crossed the BORDER without thinking about Bohra youth

azgar killer,
just think of the reasons why so many believing bohras stood against the "maula" and became reformists breaking the oath of "misaq"....and they didnt need the words of any CM!!

babu,
just a query...are u from baswara, sagwara or pratap pur and presently based in Kuwait or Saudi??...no seriously...I am genuinely impressed to see that "wagadiyas" are so intelligent and "well informed"....