Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.

Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby porus on Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:54 am

al zulfiqar,

I implore you to reconsider your decision to quit this forum. Your contributions have stirred many who I know frequent these forums.

Humsafar is one of excellent contributors and his posts generally are thought-provoking as are yours. You both bring great value here. Disagreement and debate are part and parcel of internet discussion boards. While you may not wish to engage in discussion with some here, I would not become too reactive. Keep your goal in mind and whatever little you can achieve will go a long way, especially, for others.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby accountability on Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:39 am

Mubarak saheb: Dr engineer is a renowned personality, last time he visited toronto, I had the oppurtunity to listen to him, i found him quite scholarly and well informed. I have not read raj saheb's book, but keeping in view the antagonism, dont you think that it should be taken with a grain of salt. Your comparison also weaken your own argument in late shaikh's favour.

so far as I understand, Mr Engineer, or Mr Insaf do not claim to have any spiritual or religious sanctity. Rather they profess a reformist agenda of accountabiltiy and fairness to all our bohra.

As I said, in one of my previous post, that Shaikh Raj remained in the fold during the time of syedna tahir saifuddin, and accepted his claim of Ilah ul ard. He did not raise his voice against the so called claim. He also may have witnessed very closely, what happened to Syedna Saheb's mother. He did leave the fold in protest, rather it was his ouster, which infuriated him, and led him to join reformists.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby accountability on Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:41 am

my apologies, please read "he did not leave" instead of "did leave".
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby anajmi on Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:04 am

Al Zulfikar is a coward. He runs from those that can respond to his posts and posts only for the abde retards!!
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Aftab on Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:50 am

Well said anajmi. Could not have said it better myself. This relentless critism of the reformists - should do this and should do that - and that too in the name of constructive critism is absurb. Kennedy said "Think what you can do for the country ..........."

He has been corrected many times but to no avail. He just does not get it. I hope he does this time. Perhaps he deserves the retards as you so rightly mentioned.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Humsafar on Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:27 pm

Zulfiqar,

You come to this board with a purpose, and all I would say is that don’t allow anybody to distract and deflect you from that. If you do then it would reflect on the level of your commitment to the cause.

It’s not that I can’t take criticism of reformists, in fact I’m the first one to acknowledge their shortcomings. What I take issue with is the ridicule you heap on them – and it hurts especially when it comes from a sympathiser and fellow-traveller.

Also, understand that reformists – in the West or elsewhere - do not operate like a well-oiled machine the way the Kothar does. We do not have a full-time team of people devoted to running and managing the movement 24/7. Nobody is “in charge” here, nobody is telling others what to do. We all bring our individual commitment and energy to the movement. We all do whatever we can. Some are more committed than others, this is a simple fact of life.

So, there’s little point in saying what reformists ought do or complain about their lack of action. The point is to say what you – or anyone else – can do. That is the starting point. I know and appreciate the energy and enthusiasm you bring to your posts. And although I do not quite agree with the aggressive style and antagonistic tone you employ, I believe you have a lot to contribute.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Aftab on Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:18 pm

See how he has reacted. He has been dishing criticism galore at the reformist and now I hope he has realized what it is to be on the receiving end. If you had just bothered to find out how we operate, you might have taken a different stance. And all those who criticize our movement on this web site, a little search will enlighten you of our challenges.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Aarif on Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:00 pm

It’s not that I can’t take criticism of reformists, in fact I’m the first one to acknowledge their shortcomings.
Are you sure about that?? From all your posts that I have read so far in the past 3 years, it gives me an impression that you have a pretty strong bias when it comes to "reformists of Udaipur". Anybody says anything against them, and you react almost instantanously using all your brain power and sophisticated language. Your posts give me an impression that it might be quite possible for "Allah" to make a mistake once in a while but impossible for the reformists living in Udaipur to make any..
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Aarif on Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:04 pm

Br. AZ,

I would request you to reconsider your decision. I don't think that you should get bogged down by such stray posts...

There is a sher in Urdu which might be apt for this situation:

“Girte hain shahsawar hi, maidan-i-jang mein,
woh tifl kya gire, jo guthno ke bal chale”.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Aarif on Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:19 pm

If you had just bothered to find out how we operate, you might have taken a different stance.
Aftab,

With only 67 posts to your credit it is quite obvious that you have not bothered much yourself to spread any sensible awareness of your movement on this forum. Also, what have you done so far on this forum, apart from criticizing the people on the other side of the fence???
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Humsafar on Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:42 pm

Arif,

Do not depend on your impressions too much, it is never a good way knowing and understanding anything. I only try to correct the ignorance and misinformation people have about Udaipur reformists. I'm sorry that you see it as a strong bias. Please read my posts again and see how I have critiqued reformists.

Again, it is not a good idea to judge people's reformist credentials by the number of posts here. There is more to the reform movement than what happens here. As far as I know Asghar Ali Engineer has never visited this site, would you then condemn him for doing nothing to spread awareness of the movement?
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Danish on Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:46 pm

Who is the one among below three mentioned names that will decide if any matter is intellectually right or wrong?

1. Sayyedna Mohammed Burhannuddin Sahib
2. Dr. Mr. Asghar Ali Engineer
3. Allah
Obviously 2.

Khamar = Ummul badi
Alcohol = mother of all evils

The biggest enemy of Intelligence is ‘Daru’ (Alcohol),
Any tangible substance when consumed that alters consciousness/alertness for “pleasure” causing harm than good. Statistically though, alcoholic beverages remains on the peak for being abundantly and freely available (the cynical government). According to the Quran and of course realistically, intoxication bears some goodness. From the impalpable and rather sentimental side, the biggest enemy of Intelligence is the 'human' itself.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Aarif on Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:16 pm

Do not depend on your impressions too much, it is never a good way knowing and understanding anything.
Humsafar,

My impressions are not formed out of nothing. They were "based" on what you write on this forum.

As far as I know Asghar Ali Engineer has never visited this site,
As far as you know is unfortunately not good enough. Mr. Engineer is member of this forum. Below is an URL which has one of his posts.

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000111#000000

Also, Mr. Engineer does not need any introduction or any site to show his worth. People who do not visit this site also know him and Mr. Insaf very well. So his example does not make much sense in this context.

Again, it is not a good idea to judge people's reformist credentials by the number of posts here. There is more to the reform movement than what happens here.
I agree with you on that. However, when people make statements like "And all those who criticize our movement on this web site, a little search will enlighten you of our challenges" this, it makes me write what I wrote. I mean this forum can be used to spread awareness rather than expecting people to go out and find out things on their own. Just passing the buck around does not make any sense.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Danish on Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:13 pm

I personally admire and understand Zulfiqar's posts for his relentless wits, antagonizing fuels and frustrations pumped out towards "Taheri Regime" whilst at the same time throwing high-ended "certain" pitches as glitches towards reformist's cause. That must not come as a “shock-n-awe” for any reformist, but rather contemplated and understood as a “gesture” to accommodate CHANGE because reformists DO have problems of their own. After all, the progressives are not infallible to their cause towards reformation just because they segregated from the mainstream/orthodox for obvious reasons.

This must not perturb or agitate an individual reformist whatsoever, but rather come to a consensus for his appropriations and better understandings, since both have contributed tbeir reformists' parts.

I respect Humsafar's posts as much as Zulfiqar's (and a few others), and recommend both to reconcile your personal grudges by PMs or emails, as both are relentless and active reformists, much respected and deliberate in causing a CHANGE for the betterment of all Dawoodi Bohras as per Quranic injunctions, humanitarian grounds and natural and logical renditions.

@ Zulfiqar: I'd advise to stay within the framework of progression rather than aquittance. Trust me, even though I am out of the fold of religious beliefs altogether, I have continued to support the Dawoodi Bohra Reformists since over 10 years now (they were either not available to me or I was simply not aware of the "reformists movement"; but nevertherless I did and still continue to fight them within my own resources). I have managed to not only shake the foundations of but convert many into "progressive Bohras or "simple muslims". I have yet to invite countless Bohras (family members, relatives, friends, acquaintences and referrals) to this forum but have been somewhat hesitant. Take it easy bro and hope to read more of your "Harvard English" posts. ;) (just kidding!)
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby like_minded on Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:58 am

I agree with bro danish and areef

Bro Zulfi, you should not quit this forum, This would be a set back for all of us who are fighting relentlessly against the hierarchy.

Your contribution, especially your post revealing the dark-side of the late taher saifuddin was indeed an eye-opener, I personally have great respect and admiration for you, and would be very sad not to find your postings and views hereafter.

PLEASE DONT LEAVE US.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Aftab on Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:55 am

I agree with you on that. However, when people make statements like "And all those who criticize our movement on this web site, a little search will enlighten you of our challenges" this, it makes me write what I wrote. I mean this forum can be used to spread awareness rather than expecting people to go out and find out things on their own. Just passing the buck around does not make any sense.

We know a hell lot more about the Koathar than one can imagine. We make it our business to know, even though we are barred from even entering the Masjids. Than and than can we speak about them per say. Similarly, it is no secret where we operate from, our membership list is open and available; unlike the main stream Masjids, any body can participate in our functions. Therefore it is not so difficult to find out what we do. This site, as Humsafar says, is not the sum total of the reformist movement. There is much more to this than what you see here.

So my intention is not to pass the buck but to invite other people who have problems with us to come and talk to us first hand. A case in point is when Dr. Engineer was in Toronto recently, we publicized his visit on this web to invite any body who wishes to know. Some times what one writes here and explains here would not be the same.

Dr. Engineer has been here many times. Mostly for 2-3 days on the invitation of the Government of Canada, Universities and this time by The Noor Cultural Centre. We handle his time when ever he is here, and the pressures are enormous – from the media, interest groups and this time through public lectures at Noor. Did we notice any so called active members on this web site show any interest? Did we notice any Bohras at any of his public lectures? Yes, we do not know you, but chances are if you were there we would have bumped in to each other. I mean this is just one example to cite. You can not just reply on the entries on this site and make value judgments. If you show interest, than that interest has to manifest in to actions. And that action is not just to reply to entries here. You will be amazed at the volume of inquiries we have from all walks of life for Dr. Engineer’s time.

Now you might react and say you do not care about Dr. Engineer. But there is some thing that you care and ticks your inquisitiveness?
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Hussain_KSA on Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:15 am

Dear brother Al Zulfiquar,

Every one has his own perception & point of view, wherever the word board, fourm, group or society or movements comes the individualism lost its importance. On various occasion many has criticized you. Why you are taking it so hard this time. Your posts are like an animation for us to re energies ourselves. I personally, appreciate your courage and devotion towards the cause. You have given much time and energy in writings unlike some other seasonal visitors. Your decision of leaving the board might make some people happy but majority will be missing you. Please re consider your decision.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Aftab on Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:04 pm

You have said it nicely, you have used the word “might make”. This is a perception and appreciate where you are coming from. Nobody has asked Al Zulficar to leave, it is his own decision. There are many in the progressive fold who would put Hamsafar to shame in their ability to write, and they never do. I am just a messenger so please do not shoot me. The reason they do not write is they find this site meaningless. These people are committed and have a conviction, and they would rather act than write. Even if they wrote, it would be after much deliberation. This is in response to the many criticism that people have about reformist not visiting this site. And on numerous occasions, Humsafar has pointed this and he has been criticized for speaking such.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Humsafar on Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:57 pm

and recommend both to reconcile your personal grudges

I've no grudges - personal or otherwise - against anybody. I can't understand why Zulfiqar made such a big deal out of the whole thing. He expressed his opinion and I expressed mine. We can continue have debate and discussion - and this is exactly what this forum is meant for as porus said. What is the need to sulk and quit.

This forum belongs to Zulfiqar as much as it does to anybody else. We can agree to disagree, and yet continue to be part of this great virtual family. As it is reformists are hard to come by, and given the various constraints and limitations we have to work under, we cannot afford to have sensitive egos, we cannot afford the luxury of quitting. We must find common ground to work together despite our differences because no personal opinion or ego must be allowed to take precedence over the cause. I've seen enough of prima donnas doing damage to the movement over petty differences. Let's not repeat the same mistakes.

All of us - inside or outside - have one overriding goal, and let's not lose focus of that. So Zulfiqar, if your commitment and conviction are strong then you would stop playing hard to get. Just get back to what you do best: write with fire and frisson. You brought a fresh energy to this forum and I would hate to see it disappear. And I would hate it more to be blamed for it.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Fatwa Banker on Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:52 am

Stop coddling the guy, if he is a big boy he will shake it off and jump right back into it. His posts are largely forgettable and often hateful. If he chooses to sulk away, more power to him.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby babu on Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:26 pm

hahahaha , where r u going , Check the heading yaar ,
In hindi they said...
" Aaye they hari bhajan ko otan lage kapaas." ;)
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Mubarak on Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:48 pm

Originally posted by Humsafar:
Zulifqar,

About Shaikh Ahemd Ali, Mubarak is simply beating a dead horse. Shaikh sahab for all his knowledge and scholarship, and perhaps because of it, was a conservative man, quite out of step with the times. The “shariyate mohamadi” he is talking about his nothing more than a crude blend of jamia orthodoxy, misogyny and social conservatism.
Salam alekum va Rehmatullah va Barkatahu

“Rabbe zidni ilman war zukni fihman, wa salle ala Mohammedin wa aale Mohammad”
O’ Allah give me more and more knowledge/wisdom and give me more intellegience to accept and practice that knowledge/wisdom.

Dear respected brother Mr. Humsafar,

I looked for the meaning of word “conservative” in Microsoft Word, it means – “middle of the road”, translate this in Lisan-a-Dawat it will be = “Bohra”.
People have wrong perception that “Bohra” was the name given to our community because most of its members were in some sort of businesses. Bohras means those who follow the Middle Path.
Examples:
1. We neither do ‘Klu’ nor ‘Glu’.
Klu: Those who decreased Mola Ali (a.s.) in hierarchy - like Sunni.
Glu: Those who rose Mola Ali (a.s.) beyond his hierarchy - like Nuseri – who consider Ali = Allah (Mazallah).

2. We neither do grave worship like Sunni and Ithnashari Shia nor do we abandon it completely like Wahabies (mostly in Saudi Arabia).

Thus, I whole heartedly agree with you when you say that Al Alimul Jayyed Darza Awwal, Sabik Ustad, Al Mukkaddas, Al Fazil, Aali Janab Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj was ‘conservative’ because: Conservative = follower of middle of the road = Bohra = The Only Right Sect of Islam.
I also agree when you say that Shaikh Sahib knowledge and scholarship made him conservative – Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) and the progeny of Molatina Fatima (a.s.) and whomsoever they have appointed are all rightly knowledgeable and scholar. Anyone out of the line and enemies of Progeny of Molatina Fatima (a.s.) are all ignorant and/or bear wrong knowledge though they may be Caliphs/dictators (As 2nd Calips Omar always used to say – “agar Ali na hote to Omar halak ho chukka hota”.

“…quite out of step with the time”
Shariyat-a-Mohammadi means rules and regulations as ordered by Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) and progeny of Molatina Fatima (a.s.) and their appointees. When you stereotype a strict follower of ‘Shariyat-a-Mohammadi’ as an out of steps of time then dear brother Mr. Humsafar you knowingly or unknowingly imply following:

Rules and regulations ordered for every walk of life by Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) and Molatina Fatima (a.s.) progeny were workable only in their times and now after 1400 years they have become outdated (as judged by you) and amendments must be made in ‘Shariyat-a-Mohammadi’ to keep abreast with modern time. This hypothesis is also proactively professed by Dr. Mr. Asghar Ali Engineer and his pupils. If you advocate this hypothesis then you are knowingly or unknowingly claiming:
1. Dawoodi Bohra Ismailiya Mustali Shia’s faith is: Prophet Mohammed (a.s.), his successor Mola Ali (a.s.) and the progeny of Fatima (a.s.) - Imam Tayyeb (a.s.) and till the 100th Imam and their Huzzat and Babul Abwab are all ‘Masoom’ i.e. they cannot make any errors/mistakes. If they cannot make any mistakes then they cannot order any rules and regulations (i.e. Shariyat) which will become outdated. The rules were applicable from the beginning of the era of Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) till the Imam Quaim (the 100th Imam). And if you and Dr. Mr. Asghar Ali Engineer claims that Shariyat-a-Mohammadi now has become outdated then you are claiming that Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) and the progeny of Molatine Fatima (a.s.) were not ‘masoom’ as they have given erroneous Shariyat that become outdated!

2. Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) and progeny of Fatima (a.s.) were not enough intelligent and ordered such rules and regulations (Shariyat) that will not last with time and will require amendment by man like Dr. Mr. Asghar Ali Engineer and respected brother Mr. Humsafar!

3. You are more intelligent then Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) as you are deciding that now former orders have become outdated!

Dear brother Mr. Humsafar, think deeply on your claim that the Shariyat-a-Mohammadi and their followers are out of steps with time – isn’t this implies serious religious wrongs on the above three grounds?

Jamia Orthodoxy
The school of Jamiya-tus-Saifiya was established by the 42nd Dawat-a-haq Molana, Sayyedna, Aaka, Abd-a-Ali Saifuddin (r.a.) and we as a Dawoodi Bohra Ismailiya Shia are greatly indebted to our 42nd Dawat-a-haq to establish such school which will educate mumeens. When Mola Ali (a.s.) became Caliph i.e. he became zahiri ruler of more than half of world, he ordered all his Aamils that make sure that none of the infant in your district should remain illiterate otherwise you will be considered as responsible. Thus Mola Ali (a.s.) was the first person on Earth to make the primary education compulsory. And what our Mola Sayyedna Abd-a-Ali Saifuddin did was to follow the footsteps of Mola Ali (a.s.). And what are taught in the Jamia are the true rules and regulations (i.e. Shariyat) as ordered by Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) and the progeny of Fatima (a.s.). However, now days especially after Y.N. become the rector, the Jamia is leaving the right orthodox values and shifting to self made rules of Sayyedna Burhannuddin sahib which is wrong and for which we want ‘sudhar’ essence of ‘Sudhar Wadi Andolan’, In Jamia Shariyat-a-Mohammadi must be taught in the orthodox way the way it is supposed to be taught and NOT as per the SELFISH whims and fancies of Molana Sayyedna Burhannuddin sahib!
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Mubarak on Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:14 pm

Originally posted by Al Zulfiqar:
Originally posted by Humsafar:
[b]Zulifqar,

humsafar,

I am neither for, nor against sheikh raj, he is way before my youth for me to know much about him, but what i do know is that were it not for his unorthodox daring and bravery in getting things done without raza and providing the crucial spiritual support in the initial stages, the youth would not have had the guts to seize control over bohra properties in udaipur. that is the single greatest victory that any reformist jamaat has achieved anywhere in the world. it is unparalleled in the annals of the movement and a direct blow to the syedna's establishment. hats off to them. [/b]
Dear respected brother Mr. Zulfiquar

Thanks for your 100% right inference. Alhamdolilahe Rabbil Aalameen. May Almighty Allah bless you with ‘afzalul zaza’ and ‘kher’.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Mubarak on Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:05 pm

Originally posted by accountability:
Mubarak saheb: Dr engineer is a renowned personality, last time he visited toronto, I had the oppurtunity to listen to him, i found him quite scholarly and well informed. I have not read raj saheb's book, but keeping in view the antagonism, dont you think that it should be taken with a grain of salt. Your comparison also weaken your own argument in late shaikh's favour.

so far as I understand, Mr Engineer, or Mr Insaf do not claim to have any spiritual or religious sanctity. Rather they profess a reformist agenda of accountabiltiy and fairness to all our bohra.

As I said, in one of my previous post, that Shaikh Raj remained in the fold during the time of syedna tahir saifuddin, and accepted his claim of Ilah ul ard. He did not raise his voice against the so called claim. He also may have witnessed very closely, what happened to Syedna Saheb's mother. He did leave the fold in protest, rather it was his ouster, which infuriated him, and led him to join reformists.
Dear brother Mr. Accountability,

Yazeed ibn Mawiya the killer of Imam Hussain (a.s.) too was a renowned personality, indeed he was king of more than half of the world. (FYI: Imam Temmai is the inspirational guru of Dr. Mr. Asghar Ali Engineer, and this Imam Temmai says that “Lanat us per jo Yazeed per lanat padhe”). Abu Baqr (lanat) & Omar (lanat) (1st & 2nd Caliph) - the killer of Molana Mohsin s/o Ali ibn Abi Talib and Molatina Fatima (a.s.) too were and indeed are very renowned personalities. But, does being a renowned personality make anyone right?

As you write that Mr. Engineer and Mr. Insaaf are not claiming any religious sanctity. If we assume your claim to be right then it implies that duo is not qualified to comment on the matter of religion. Isn’t? If the duo is advocating ONLY agenda of fairness and accountability then we all are with the duo. If the duo toe anything against the faith and rules and regulations (i.e. Shariyat) of Dawoodi Bohra Ismailiya Mustali Shia then we will fight tooth and nail.

Brother our LOYALITY is with the Shariyat of Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) and the progeny of Molatina Fatima (a.s.) and their appointees. We do as Shariyat orders us and we abstain if Shariyat orders us. Thus, the need is to learn what the right Shariyat is. As you say Dr. Mr. Engineer and Mr. Insaaf do not bear any religious sanctity thus the right Shariyat cannot be learnt from them. Then who will teach the right Shariyat? Answer is Al Alimul Jayyed Darza Awwal, Sabik Ustad, Al Mukkaddas, Al Fazil, Aali Janab Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj. He has written more than hundred books, two years Moharram Majlis (each majlis of two hours audio), full audio of commentary on Quran (Ismaili Tafseer), audio on how to perform Haj and Ziyarat, etc are available on the address written in my earlier posts.

“...As I said, in one of my previous post, that Shaikh Raj remained in the fold during the time of syedna tahir saifuddin, and accepted his claim of Ilah ul ard. He did not raise his voice against the so called claim.”

Moosa (a.s.) not only accepted Firaun as the God but also preached that there is no God but Firaun and that too for THIRTY LONG YEARS. And when the right time came Moosa revolted, debated and defeated Firaun. Many of our Fatimi Imams went in seclusion i.e. they didn’t preached openly and counter wrong version of Islam but when time came Fatimi Imams established their sultanate and spread the right version of Islam. Likewise, Al Alimul Jayyed Darza Awwal, Sabik Ustad, Al Mukkaddas, Al Fazil, Aali Janab Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj and Martyr the Great Shaikh Sajjad sahib, Al Fazil Shaikh Ali Ahmed sahib and Al Fazil Shaikh Hasan Ali sahib like their able predecessor kept tolerance/acceptance like Moosa and Fatimi Imams did and when time came right they like Moosa debated and defeated selfish Sayyedna Molana Burhannuddin Sahib.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Fatwa Banker on Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:37 am

Originally posted by Mubarak:
As you write that Mr. Engineer and Mr. Insaaf are not claiming any religious sanctity. If we assume your claim to be right then it implies that duo is not qualified to comment on the matter of religion. Isn’t?

As you say Dr. Mr. Engineer and Mr. Insaaf do not bear any religious sanctity thus the right Shariyat cannot be learnt from them. Then who will teach the right Shariyat?
Your view of who one can learn from is overly simplistic and hence the problem at hand with the Bohra community. Is merely "claiming" religious sanctity good enough for you ? Is it an accurate assumption then that you will only learn religion from those who claim authority or are appointed to do so ?
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Hussain_KSA on Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:23 am

Originally posted by Mubarak:
The school of Jamiya-tus-Saifiya was established by the 42nd Dawat-a-haq Molana, Sayyedna, Aaka, Abd-a-Ali Saifuddin (r.a.) and we as a Dawoodi Bohra Ismailiya Shia are greatly indebted to our 42nd Dawat-a-haq to establish such school which will educate mumeens. , In Jamia Shariyat-a-Mohammadi must be taught in the orthodox way the way it is supposed to be taught and NOT as per the SELFISH whims and fancies of Molana Sayyedna Burhannuddin sahib![/QB]
Mubarak,

Abde Ali Saifuddin was 43rd Dai. You seems to be very close to Shaikh Ahmed Ali. If the teaching in Jamia is according to Sydena Burhanuddin's Selfish whims and fancies why did Shaikh Ahmed Ali wanted to aplogies, and tried very hard to get pardon from Kothar. Dear brother it is fact that Shaikh Ahmed Ali had no option left but to leave the efforts and start his own life. He did not leave the jamia by himself but was expelled and despite of his best efforts he was not taken back.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Hussain_KSA on Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:31 am

Originally posted by Mubarak:
.

As you write that Mr. Engineer and Mr. Insaaf are not claiming any religious sanctity. If we assume your claim to be right then it implies that duo is not qualified to comment on the matter of religion. Isn’t? If the duo is advocating ONLY agenda of fairness and accountability then we all are with the duo. If the duo toe anything against the faith and rules and regulations (i.e. Shariyat) of Dawoodi Bohra Ismailiya Mustali Shia then we will fight tooth and nail.

.[/QB]
Do you agree that recent innovations and practices in dawoodi bohra sect is according to Sahriyat of Imailiya mustali shia jurisprudence? The reform movement is not against shariate muhammadi but apposing the misuse of office of dai and unaccountabilty and other mal practices. The titles you are attaching with shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj is similar to what abde syedna do with their demi god.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby accountability on Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:22 am

Yazeed ibn Mawiya the killer of Imam Hussain (a.s.) too was a renowned personality, indeed he was king of more than half of the world. (FYI: Imam Temmai is the inspirational guru of Dr. Mr. Asghar Ali Engineer, and this Imam Temmai says that “Lanat us per jo Yazeed per lanat padhe”). Abu Baqr (lanat) & Omar (lanat) (1st & 2nd Caliph) - the killer of Molana Mohsin s/o Ali ibn Abi Talib and Molatina Fatima (a.s.) too were and indeed are very renowned personalities. But, does being a renowned personality make anyone right?
Mubarak saheb: this is the rhetoric that I despise so much. Cursing and name calling, using so called historical refrences to drive your point of view, rather forcing it on others. It is in the same line with the present bohra administration. you have mixed history and twisted analogies therin to fit your whim. Shiekh saheb is a respected aalim, let him be so.

Now replying to your other point, Then imam hussain should not have stood fast, and waited till the time was ripe, Rasulilah SAW should not have declared islam, rather waited for oppurtune time, Jesus should not have been crucified, but waited till the time comes. I see waiting for oppurtune time as cowardice, and honest and steadfast humane being will always stand tall against all odds for truth and jsutice.
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby Mubarak on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:20 am

Originally posted by Hussain_KSA:
Originally posted by Mubarak:
The school of Jamiya-tus-Saifiya was established by the 42nd Dawat-a-haq Molana, Sayyedna, Aaka, Abd-a-Ali Saifuddin (r.a.) and we as a Dawoodi Bohra Ismailiya Shia are greatly indebted to our 42nd Dawat-a-haq to establish such school which will educate mumeens. , In Jamia Shariyat-a-Mohammadi must be taught in the orthodox way the way it is supposed to be taught and NOT as per the SELFISH whims and fancies of Molana Sayyedna Burhannuddin sahib!
Mubarak,

Abde Ali Saifuddin was 43rd Dai. You seems to be very close to Shaikh Ahmed Ali. If the teaching in Jamia is according to Sydena Burhanuddin's Selfish whims and fancies why did Shaikh Ahmed Ali wanted to aplogies, and tried very hard to get pardon from Kothar. Dear brother it is fact that Shaikh Ahmed Ali had no option left but to leave the efforts and start his own life. He did not leave the jamia by himself but was expelled and despite of his best efforts he was not taken back.[/QB]
In the name of Allah. The Compassionate, the Merciful.

“Rabbish rahli sadri wa yas sirli amri wah lul uk datam mil lisani yaf kahu kauli wa salle ala Mohammadin wa ale Mohammad”
- Moosa (a.s.) ki dua in Quran

A Allah is kaam ke liye mere seene ko khol de, aur mere kaam ko aasan kar de aur meri jaban ki girha ko khol de taki yeh log meri baat ko samaj sake. Aur Nabi Mohammad wa unki aal per salwat.

Dear respected brother Hussain_KSA,

Inputs from: Nafisa masi d/o Al Alimul Jayyed Darza Awwal, Sabik Ustad, Al Mukkaddas, Al Fazil, Aali Janab Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj and bhai Sajjad KG (close pupil of Sheikh sahib)– both in Udaipur.

This is 100% true that Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj was EXPELLED and the reason for expelling was: Sheikh Ahmed Ali and his fellow three great Ustad didn’t bow to the wrongs against ‘Shariyat-a-Mohammadi’ instigated by selfish Sayyedna Burhannuddin and YN. These four always registered their protest on all the wrongs that Kothar did. These four Ustad do not wanted to leave the main fold like their able predecessor as they were afraid that should they leave then there can be chaos in the society, like same chaos that occurred few years ago during the time of Molana Tahir Saiffuddin when the scholars of that time abandon Molana Tahir on his open claim that he is not a fake Dai-ul-mutlaq and is the Dai appointed by ‘nuss’ from the beginning i.e. in unbroken chain from 46th Dai-ul-mutlaq Molana Aaka Mohammed Badruddin sahib (r.a.), when those scholars left a sizeable jamat of Mumeens too left with those scholars – a new sect was born thus creating a bifurcation in the Dawoodi Bohras. These four Ustad do not want to create chaos and do not want to repeat the same bifurcation and wanted peace in community – thus these were the reasons that Sheikh Ahmed Ali wanted apologies, and tried hard to get pardon from Kothar.

In the ‘Mafinama’ (letter of apology) Sheikh Ahmed Ali requested for pardon but CATEGORICALLY mentioned in the ‘mafinama’ that he was, is and will always be on the facts and proofs (details in book: Sansanikhez Hakaik) mentioned herewith will consider Molana Burhannuddin as Dai-a-Nazim and not a true Dai-ul-mutlaq. On this ‘mafinama’ Mr. Yamani, the secretary of Molana Burhannuddin sahib said to Sheikh Ahmed Ali Sahib: “tare cheere nakhis” (will cut you in pieces). Do remember that just few days back Molana Burhannuddin and YN got the great Sheikh Sajjad sahib martyred.

Very few people has shown courage to tell truth going against Kothar on the face of Molana Burhannuddin sahib and Sheikh Ahmed Ali sahib showed that bountiful courage to tell Molana Burhannuddin on his face during the trial of his ‘mafinama’ that you are not the true Dai-ul-mutlaq based on testimony from your so and so family members, so and so book, evidence and proofs (all detail in book: Sansanikhez Hakaik) and you did so and so wrong against the Shariyat-a-Mohammadi.


Mubarak Inputs:
Molana, Sayyedina, Aaka Abde Ali Saifuudin sahib was 43rd Dai, sorry for the typing error. Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) said that should you be addressing any religious head irrespective of he belonging to any religion (Yahood/Nasara/anyone) you must address him with dignity and respect. In my personal opinion as a matter of etiquettes should anyone be a Dawoodi Bohra Ismailiya Mustali Shia then he/she must name Dawat-a-haq Molana Abde-a-Ali aaka with respected titles along with his name.

Example of interest clash between Burhannuddin sahib and Sheikh Ahmed Ali: Sheikh Sahib and his three fellow scholars were strictly against the breast beating in the name of Hussain (a.s.) as this was against the orders of Sayyedna Molana Aaka Abd-a-Ali Saiffuddin sahib.
Aaka wrote in his book that the ‘Matam’ means ‘Shok sabha / sadak allah or to cry or make face like crying on remembering the martyr of Imam Hussain and ‘Matam’ does NOT mean to do breast or head beating with hand or any instrument. In Arabic, breast beating is termed as ‘Ladam’ and head beating is termed as ‘Sadam’ (Saddam Hussain).
Aaka Abd-a-Ali Saiffuddin sahib has said: do only ‘Matam’, and never do ‘Ladam’ or ‘Sadam’ – they are ‘fitnat’ of Ithanshari Shia’s.
People wrongly use word ‘Matam’ for chest beating. Chest beating is against the orders of Molana Abd-a-Ali Sahib. Thus, Sheikh Ahmed Ali sahib was following the orders of Dawat-a-haq Molana Abd-a-Ali Saifuddin sahib.

Sayyedina Burhannuddin Sahib can’t do public speaking orally and have to look in paper word for word. Do great orators look in paper word for word? Nevertheless, many bhaisahib’s commented that Mola’s speech is boring and make listeners fall asleep. So to counter this lacuna and weakness in his public speech Molana Burhannuddin sahib introduced breast beating and maliciously termed it as ‘Matam’. Now whenever he found that public falling or near to asleep he triggered breast beating. Now this breast beating created agitation and awakes public from sleep. This was against the Shariyat-a-Mohammadi and Sheikh Ahmed Ali Sahib countered it. However, breast beating was prime requirement of Molana Burhannuddin sahib so to stop people from falling asleep. Thus there erupted a clash in the interest and Molana Burhannuddin chosen SELFISH course and not followed the orders of true Dawat-a-haq Molana Abd-a-Ali Saiffuddin Sahib to not to do breast beating.
Mubarak
 
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Re: Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

Unread postby porus on Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:54 pm

In the name of Allah. The Compassionate, the Merciful.

“Rabbish rahli sadri wa yas sirli amri wah lul uk datam mil lisani yaf kahu kauli wa salle ala Mohammadin wa ale Mohammad”
- Moosa (a.s.) ki dua in Quran

A Allah is kaam ke liye mere seene ko khol de, aur mere kaam ko aasan kar de aur meri jaban ki girha ko khol de taki yeh log meri baat ko samaj sake. Aur Nabi Mohammad wa unki aal per salwat.
This dua is from Sura Taha (20:25-28).
The ,proper transliteration is as follows:

qala rabbi ishraH li Sadri
wa yassir li amri
wa aHlul Uqdatan min lisaani(spoken: waHlul Uqdatm mil lisaani)
yafqahu qawli

The final "wa salle ala Mohammadin wa ale Mohammad" does not appear in the Sura. Please be careful when you quote Quran and render the transliteration more accurately.

That Sayedna Abdali had ruled against breast beating for Husain is great news. If confirmed that it is authentic Fatimid tradition, then Bohras can be spared this ugly demonstration every day. Which book of the late Sayedna are you quoting from?
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