Page 1 of 3
IMAM
Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 5:31 pm
by observer
I have been thinking about the Imam in purdah. Now since the last Imam Tayeb was an arab did this lineage continue among the arabs. If so then our next imam would be arab. So how would the indian dias then fit in? Now what if the imam has intermarried and has emigrated to live in Sweden. Could our next imam be European? Then there may be some truth in the Aga Khan as Imam. Just kidding! It is hard to believe that there is an Imam in purdah with whom our Moula is in contact. All this is so damn confusing!
Re: IMAM
Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 4:29 am
by Momin
Imam can be of any race, culture, and tradition. We are all the children of God.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 6:22 pm
by observer
Can you imagine our imam to be European. We will all be flocking to Geneva maybe for Ashura or again to Toronto if he is Canadian. What would he be eating? Would he be dressed in sayo topi etc. What if he is African? We could be going to Sudan for Ashura maybe. Will we still eat in thals then? Since there is already one Imam on earth (Aga Khan) would they start fighting? Will Ismailis tehn join us? It will be an interesting time!
Re: IMAM
Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 5:04 pm
by serendipity
RE: "What if imam is African? We could be going to Sudan for Ashura maybe."
Dear observer, that's not so far fetched! After all, Tayyeb originally entered purdah IN Africa. And racially he was already part African or Sudanese, through his great grandfather Imam Mustansir's mother. But then he was ALSO part Arab, part Persian, part Armenian, and part Greek (so there's your European as well!) Seeing how varied his own ancestry was, his descendents could easily include many MORE nationalities, including Indian. Isn't that the point? We're not into some exclusive trip, like Jews or Arabs who think that just because the Prophets appeared among them, they are the "chosen people"!
Re: IMAM
Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 9:04 pm
by observer
Interesting serendipity. A lot of mixture. Then why do we not intermarry? Or why when someone wants to get married out of our sect there is so much resistance by the powers that be.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 3:41 am
by anajmi
serendipity,
Can you tell me which Arab you have spoken to who has said that they are the chosen people as against all Muslims? Or you may direct me to someplace where you may have read something to that effect?
Re: IMAM
Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 3:07 pm
by serendipity
RE: "Interesting serendipity. A lot of mixture. Then why do we not intermarry? Or why when someone wants to get married out of our sect there is so much resistance by the powers that be."
Good question. I hope it isn't for ethnic or racial reasons! I am assuming it's strictly a doctrinal thing...because personally I don't care if the Imam is black, brown, or white.
RE: "serendipity, can you tell me which Arab you have spoken to who has said that they are the chosen people as against all Muslims?"
Unfortunately some Palestinian lads who in the heat of trying to convert me said that the shiites (of lebanon) were not really arabs, and therefore not "real muslims".
Re: IMAM
Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 3:20 pm
by anajmi
It is unfortunate that some arabs think that way. I have been to a lot of mosques and heard a lot of speakers over the years and I have never heard anyone say anything like that.
So please do not club all Arabs together cause most of them do not believe what you say they do.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 11:44 pm
by Average Bohra
Re: IMAM
Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 11:54 am
by khan19922001
Get real. There is no Imam in purdah. This is just a money making ploy by the Bohri's.
Regards
Re: IMAM
Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 5:24 pm
by anajmi
And that is why the great leader President Bush has decided to stay the course and get rid of all the muslims.. I mean all the muslim leaders and establish parking lots... I mean democracies in muslim countries.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 5:25 pm
by anajmi
I am inclined to say it again "The world is a much better place now that Saddam Hussein is gone"
Re: IMAM
Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 5:44 pm
by serendipity
RE: "Get real. There is no Imam in purdah."
Spoken like a true doubter (fortunately there are also some believers). Of COURSE it's easy to discount another's experience of what is real, if it isn't your own experience. Happens all the time!
Re: IMAM
Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 6:20 am
by khuzema
How about Imam born in USA and living in USA? Imam might be contacting Dia, via online chat. In emergency Dia might be seeking help from Imam by calling him on his cell phone. What kind of car Imam might be driving? BMW, Toyota, Ford
If Imam is American then definitely he will not have beard or mustache.
What would be his name Samuel Software Walla?
Re: IMAM
Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 3:15 am
by serendipity
I think USA would be nicest place for Imam to "come out". He can do do so without cell phone or BMW though, thank you.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 2:56 am
by observer
Here is something else to think about. Both the Bohoras and Ithaneshris are waiting for their Imam. Ithnaeshris are looking for him since Musa Kazim went into seclusion. We are looking for ours since Imam Tayeb went into seclusion. When the Imam comes out (zohoor) will he be common to both groups or is each one going to doubt the other. Logically there should be only one Imam if he is a direct descendant of Mohamed, right. Then whoever rises first shoudl be the Imam. If teh Ithneshris Imam comes first are we going to disown him. Why? There shoudl only be one Imam. Someone explain.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 6:39 pm
by serendipity
RE: "Here is something else to think about. Both the Bohras and Ithaneshris are waiting for their Imam. Ithnaeshris are looking for him since Musa Kazim went into seclusion." (Actually, since the death of Hasan al-Askari, their 11th imam...Musa Kazim was their 7th.)
"We are looking for ours since Imam Tayeb went into seclusion. When the Imam comes out (zohoor) will he be common to both groups?" (The descendant of Tayyeb who finally "comes out" will be a man of his OWN generation, not the ancient mahdi of the twelvers who's supposed to be the SAME guy who disappeared in 873 C.E.)
"Logically there should be only one Imam if he is a direct descendant of Mohamed, right?" (Actually there are ALOT of so-called sayyeds who claim descent from Muhammad, so this isn't really the issue.)
"Then whoever rises first should be the Imam." (You know my friend, I think you're right. That's the BEST solution because if his "rising" is successful it will be because of Allah's blessing and the PROOF provided that he is the real McCoy!)
Re: IMAM
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 7:05 pm
by Muslim First
.
Br. Serendiptity wrote:
"Then whoever rises first should be the Imam." (You know my friend, I think you're right. That's the BEST solution because if his "rising" is successful it will be because of Allah's blessing and the PROOF provided that he is the real McCoy!)
What kind of proofs you will need to call him real McCoy?
Wasalaam
.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:10 pm
by serendipity
It will be clear enough if he is blessed by Allah in what he is doing. He will also be able to prove who he is, so that anyone "rejecting" him will have to do so in the face of authenticated documentation!
Re: IMAM
Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 3:24 pm
by Ismailite
Couldnt the work of Imam Shah Karim (Aga Khan) through his AKDN and humanitarian institutions be interpreted as a 'rising'?
His efforts have been succesful in bettering the conditions of the world - isnt this a blessing?
Or is this so-called rising supposed to take place in one night?
Re: IMAM
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:56 pm
by Mal
Imam or No Imam,
Get rid of Dai ...... he is sham, arrogant, tyrant, thug ........ he is no spokesman of Imam, if Imam is of that importance, let him come out, enough is enough, why is he is Parda, why, what are the reasons now ... the time is ripe and there is lot of religious freedom, IF one wants to do or say something .... so its time he should come out and let people decide .... let people accept or reject him. If Agha Khan is Imam and if some people accept him, FINE, if some donot, FINE then too. Dai has had enough ....... for himself, for his family of thousands, for his henchmen .... enough of loot .... Today, religion is one's private and personal affair. Today, religion is not a must. It was required during old days. Believe in God and thats it, do good things ....... why do we need people like Dai, Mazoon, Mukasir, Bhai Sahibs (in hundreds), Shaikhs and Mullas (in thousands). Bohras have a tiny community and that too has a big BIG CASTE system. See how people of so-called Royal Family and Bahi Sahibs and Bahan Sahebas treat ordinary Bohras, thats insulting. BARAT them, its time ordinary bohras do BARAT of all of them .......!!!!!!!
May God give Hedayat and Hemat to all of us, Ameen.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:01 pm
by Africawala
I was very impressed by Serendepity's knowledge of Imams' maternal background i.e. the Imams had inter-married. Serendepity, if it is not too much, can you please tell me where you found this information as I would like to get a copy of that book. Imam Hussein's wife, Sherbanu was a Persian princess. Even the Prophet (PBUH) had a Jewish and a Coptic wives. Some of the Imam's
wives never converted to Islam.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:48 pm
by serendipity
Dear Africawala,
Re: "I was very impressed by Serendepity's knowledge of Imams' maternal background i.e. the Imams had inter-married. Serendepity, if it is not too much, can you please tell me where you found this information?"
Thanks very much. It' nice when we have the chance to enrich one other's knowledge...so please tell me more of what you know too! I'm away from my "library" but off the top of my head, here are some of the connections you asked for. The mother of Imam Hakim (AS) was a Greek Byzantine princess. His son, Imam Zaahir (AS) had a black Sudanese wife, who was presented to him as a gift. She was the mother of Imam Mustansir (AS). Imam Mustansir (AS) married his son Imam Mustali (AS) to the daughter of al-Afdal, who was a full-blooded Armenian. Therefore, Imam Aamir (AS) had ALL of the above in his bloodlines.... So if nothing else, I think this is a wonderful "metaphor" for the universality of Imam's guidance.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:34 pm
by Africawala
Dear Serendipity,
You did not tell me where you got your information from. The information which you provided is very true. What I am trying to find out is whether the Bohoras are aware of this bloodline. If they are, then why do they discourage inter-marriages and why do they force people to convert. I know a bohri who was getting married to a Hindu, but the Hindu man was forced to take mithaq and become a bohora. Soon after that they got married according to Hindu tradition. The Hindu is following his own religion and so are his children. Isn't this a mockery of bohora dai and his religion? This is just one example. There have been interfaith marriages with Christians, Sunnis and other Shias and all of them revert to their own religion after the Mullah takes money from the families to perform Nikah. I think the bohris are the only ones who extort a considerable amount of money to perform Nikah, especially if there is an inter-marriage.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:33 pm
by serendipity
Dear Africawala
Re: "What I am trying to find out is whether the Bohoras are aware of this bloodline. If they are, then why do they discourage inter-marriages and why do they force people to convert...all of them revert to their own religion after the Mullah takes money from the families to perform Nikah. Isn't this a mockery of bohora dai and his religion?"
(Again I apologize that I don't have my books handy where I am living now...I'm sure some of the info I mentioned can be retrieved by surfing the Net though.) As to the LARGER issue you raise, no I'm not happy with this money-grubbing nonsense. It's time we either REVIVE the vision of what the Dawat is all about or stop pretending to believe in it just for the sake of exacting a TARIFF from people!
Re: IMAM
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:07 pm
by Muslim First
.
Brothers Mal and Serendipity;
AS
Appearance of Imaam is interesting concept and is common for both Shias and Sunnies. Only problem is that this Imaam is acceptable to all. I am posting one of sunni group’s belief about reappearance of Imaam.
APPEARANCE OF IMAAM MAHDI (ALAIHI SALAAM)
The first major sign of the signs of Qiyaamah is the appearance Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam). 'Mahdi' is the title to one who guides. According to the dictionary meaning, every Aalim who possesses the correct and true knowledge is called a 'Mahdi', in fact every true and complete Muslim is a 'Mahdi'. However, the Mahdi, who is spoken about in the Ahaadith, is the one who will appear close to Qiyaamah, and it refers to one particular person. He will be from the progeny of Hadhrat Faatimah (radhiAllaahu anha). His name will be Mohammed, his father's name will be Abdullaah and his mother's name will be Aaminah. In external appearance and character, he will resemble Rasulullaah (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam). He will be a resident of Madinah and will make his appearance in Makkah. The pious people and the Abdaals (Levels in Sainthood) from Shaam and Iraq will take Ba'it (pledge allegiance) at his hands. The "Taaj-e-Kaabah" (Crown of the Kaabah - those, treasures that are buried underneath the Kaabah) will come out and it will be distributed amongst the Muslims. He will first become the king of the Arabs and then of all the Muslims around the world. The world will permeate with justice and peace, just as how its opposites, i.e. oppression and tyranny, had reigned (previously). The Shariah of Muhammad (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) will be rejuvenated. During the time of Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam), dajjal will make his appearance. It will also be during his reign that Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) will descend from the heavens onto the eastern minaarat of the Masjid in Damascus, and he will read his Salaah behind Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam). Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam) will fight the Christians and conquer Constantinople (Istanbul).
IMPORTANT NOTE:
It is the firm belief of the Ahlus Sunnat Wal Jamaat that the emergence of Imaam Mahdi close to Qiyaamah is Haqq. It is necessary to bring faith and believe in this. The appearance of Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam) is verified in authentic Ahaadith and there is a consensus of opinion of the Ummat on this. With regards the descriptions and explanations of Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam), although there are few single reported Ahadith on the matter, this has come down to us right through the ages from the time of the Sahaabah, Taabi'een and all the pious Ulama throughout the east and west in all eras.
(This probably will leave out Aga Khanis)
Wasalaam
.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:46 pm
by Mal
Borther Muslim First
Thank you very much for this input.
Christians beleive that Christ will come and conquer.... and indeed it is our belief too that Christ will come ..... he will pray behind Mahdi or not, is different and difficult issue. BUT all the religions agree that one Messiah will come when the end of the world is near. And all will be good before the Last Day.
Then why are so many sects today ...??!!! Well, it is for power and power only. I have no right to criticize others as i donot much about them but as for Bohras, I am POSITIVE they are wrong in so many ways as of today..!!!
Wassalam
Re: IMAM
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:35 pm
by Africawala
Dear Muslim First,
I have heard of Mahdi and as far as I remember about the Prophet's prediction, He had said that it would be 300 years after him, i.e. Mahdi will rise in the Maghrib, and his name would be Mohammed and his father's name would be Abdullah. However, some Sunni friends have said that it is mentioned in the Koran also that Mahdi will come towards the end of time and Jesus will rise also. I have not seen it but may be you can tell me since you seem to know so much. By the way, why do you think the Aga Khanis should be left out? Is it because they have an Imam? If so, then the Bohoris and Ithnasheris, also have an Imam, albeit in seclusion.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:22 am
by anajmi
Mal,
All the three major religions in the world believe that the Messiah will come to establish the kingdom of God on earth.
Look at it from this point of view, why is the Messiah going to come?.. To establish the kingdom of God, to help those in need, to free those who have been enslaved, to free the oppressed and punish the oppressors.
Now consider the three religions, Jews, Christians and Muslims and look at the world around you, do Jews need the help of a messiah to free them? Lord Sharon does not, with his bulldozers and tanks taking on kids with stones!!
Nor do the christians with Bush already doing the work of God in establishing his kingdom by killing thousands of innocents with carpet bombs and bunker busters.
Now look at the muslims, oppressed by the Jews, oppressed by the christians and oppressed by other muslims who are their so called leaders. So if the Messiah is going to come, it should be obvious that it is going to be for the muslims.
Re: IMAM
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:56 pm
by Mal
Anajmi,
Your comments make sense...!!!!
I will write some more details as soon as I get some time (and I may have some questions, queries - say I have quest to learn..!!)
