Page 1 of 1

Caste system in the community

Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:48 pm
by Rebel
I was wondering if we have created a caste system in the community. Will we always differentiate our bloodline from other community people such as Khachi, surti, udaipuri, godhrawala, ujanwala this puri and that wala...and the list goes on...will we always have to kiss the feet of the surti bhaisahebs? Will there ever be equality and justice in the community? Didn't our Prophet abolish the cruel caste system? Didn't he create equality and justice in society where people of all religion lived in harmony without being persecuted by another?

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 4:56 am
by fustrate_Bohra
Their practices reminds me of Ummayad dynasty

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 7:02 am
by HMALAK
Rebel wrote:Will we always differentiate our bloodline from other community people such as Khachi, surti, udaipuri, godhrawala, ujanwala this puri and that wala..
And DAHODIYA tooo.... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 11:52 am
by Rebel
I guess then we would have to tolerate the caste system and live with it. No way out from this dogma in the present age and time.....

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:15 am
by tasneempati
Rebel wrote:I was wondering if we have created a caste system in the community. Will we always differentiate our bloodline from other community people such as Khachi, surti, udaipuri, godhrawala, ujanwala this puri and that wala...and the list goes on...will we always have to kiss the feet of the surti bhaisahebs? Will there ever be equality and justice in the community? Didn't our Prophet abolish the cruel caste system? Didn't he create equality and justice in society where people of all religion lived in harmony without being persecuted by another?
It is not only caste system in our community has been created but class categories too is there.
if you pay hefty money you are given place in front rows even during prayers.
If someone is poor he/she will not find place in mosque but has to sit outside.

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:42 am
by Invictius
tasneempati wrote:
Rebel wrote:I was wondering if we have created a caste system in the community. Will we always differentiate our bloodline from other community people such as Khachi, surti, udaipuri, godhrawala, ujanwala this puri and that wala...and the list goes on...will we always have to kiss the feet of the surti bhaisahebs? Will there ever be equality and justice in the community? Didn't our Prophet abolish the cruel caste system? Didn't he create equality and justice in society where people of all religion lived in harmony without being persecuted by another?
It is not only caste system in our community has been created but class categories too is there.
if you pay hefty money you are given place in front rows even during prayers.
If someone is poor he/she will not find place in mosque but has to sit outside.
Rubbish. There is no such thing. There is no discrimination based on place of origin/descent. There in NO caste system. And there can never be a truly egalitarian society. Those who serve the community and give their time and effort for the welfare of the community will be elevated to higher positions in society. I do not understand what you find wrong with this system.

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:46 am
by tasneempati
Ha Ha Ha Ha. Only "Hard Core foolish abde" believe so. truth is just opposite.
Invictius wrote:
tasneempati wrote: It is not only caste system in our community has been created but class categories too is there.
if you pay hefty money you are given place in front rows even during prayers.
If someone is poor he/she will not find place in mosque but has to sit outside.
Rubbish. There is no such thing. There is no discrimination based on place of origin/descent. There in NO caste system. And there can never be a truly egalitarian society. Those who serve the community and give their time and effort for the welfare of the community will be elevated to higher positions in society. I do not understand what you find wrong with this system.

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:20 am
by humanbeing
Invictius wrote: Rubbish. There is no such thing. There is no discrimination based on place of origin/descent. There in NO caste system. And there can never be a truly egalitarian society. Those who serve the community and give their time and effort for the welfare of the community will be elevated to higher positions in society. I do not understand what you find wrong with this system.
A dishonest denial !

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:33 am
by AgnosticIndian
Yup we have no such system. "Rubbish" as it was put.
We dont have a color coding based on parameters like Dhari which will then make it difficult when you go out on ziarats etc.

We dont have Aayan System of thals where the fat arses sit separately in may be an air conditioned area while the rest sweat it out. They also get soft drinks, soda, special tarkari roti whole the rest make do with the rice.

Yeah we dont have people "privileged" to occupy first row with the "afzal" right hand side of the saf during ramzan even if they otherwise dont come during other days.

No we dont have "safed patti" system during majlis or waaz.

No we dont have special kadambosi passes, ziafats for only fat arses.

No we dont have problems during kadambosi bethaks where fat arses are specially called/hand picked,accompanied by aamils/shezadas/kotharis while "aam bohri" is blocked,crushed,made to soak in the sun by Burhani Guards in the name of "Nizam".

No we dont habe any discrimination in our community

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 1:51 pm
by Rebel
tasneempati wrote:
Rebel wrote:I was wondering if we have created a caste system in the community. Will we always differentiate our bloodline from other community people such as Khachi, surti, udaipuri, godhrawala, ujanwala this puri and that wala...and the list goes on...will we always have to kiss the feet of the surti bhaisahebs? Will there ever be equality and justice in the community? Didn't our Prophet abolish the cruel caste system? Didn't he create equality and justice in society where people of all religion lived in harmony without being persecuted by another?
It is not only caste system in our community has been created but class categories too is there.
if you pay hefty money you are given place in front rows even during prayers.
If someone is poor he/she will not find place in mosque but has to sit outside.
Tasneem Pati, I agree with you there is a whole class system developed to control us and make community people feel inferior from mullahs and kothar. We have created a superior and inferior class system. All bhaisahebs, mullahs are superior who can only drink milk and coconut water and other community people plain water. No respect for people who have are needy and poor. I have seen people who never ever to come for masjids but they are shks cos they give more money and have ability to perform Ziyafats.

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 1:56 pm
by Rebel
AgnosticIndian wrote:Yup we have no such system. "Rubbish" as it was put.
We dont have a color coding based on parameters like Dhari which will then make it difficult when you go out on ziarats etc.

We dont have Aayan System of thals where the fat arses sit separately in may be an air conditioned area while the rest sweat it out. They also get soft drinks, soda, special tarkari roti whole the rest make do with the rice.

Yeah we dont have people "privileged" to occupy first row with the "afzal" right hand side of the saf during ramzan even if they otherwise dont come during other days.

No we dont have "safed patti" system during majlis or waaz.

No we dont have special kadambosi passes, ziafats for only fat arses.

No we dont have problems during kadambosi bethaks where fat arses are specially called/hand picked,accompanied by aamils/shezadas/kotharis while "aam bohri" is blocked,crushed,made to soak in the sun by Burhani Guards in the name of "Nizam".

No we dont habe any discrimination in our community
Very good observations...true we have a class system against the principles of Islam. Prophet ended this class system with the introduction of Islam and made everyone equal from whichever clans people belonged from and the kothar recreated the class and clan system to rule our minds and hearts and draw us back into the age of ignorance.

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:44 pm
by ghulam muhammed
The below mentioned article doesn't deal with the Bohra caste system but it gives interesting insight into the manner in which the whole caste system is managed, something similar to Bohras who take pride in claiming to be from the lineage of Brahmins :-

WHO ARE THE BRAHMINS?
The word Brahmin incorporates all the upper-caste Hindus of India. They claim that, because they were made from God Brahma's head, they are the chosen people of God. Worshipping a Brahmin is akin to worshipping God incarnate. Serving a Brahmin and offering him alms is like serving God himself. These are in the beliefs that are included in the minds of all other people, especially in the low caste Hindus. As a result 5% of the Indian population have psychologically enslaved the other 95%.

The Brahmins are the "ARYANS" invaders of India who entered the country thousands of years ago via the Khyber Pass. Over the centuries they have established themselves firmly on Indian soil by ruling over, and enslaving, the country's original inhabitants.

More on Caste System.
The most significant feature of the Hindu social system is what is called 'caste' under which the people are divided into various groups. The status of an individual in the society is determined by the caste in which he is born. A Hindu is born in a caste and he dies as a member of that caste. There is no Hindu without a caste and being bound by caste from birth to death, he becomes subject to social regulation and tradition of the caste over which he has no control.

A person born in a caste carries the name of that caste as a part of his surname [Swami Dharma Theertha, History of Hindu Imperialism, Madras, 1992, p. 187.]. The division of the people into various castes is said to be eternal so that no act of virtue or vice in this earthly life is enough to make any change in the caste or social status of a man or woman. The caste system of India has generally been regarded as an absurd, unhealthy social phenomenon, without parallel elsewhere in the world.

On the top of the caste hierarchy is the Brahman and at the bottom is the Untouchable (Dalit) and in between are the Kshatriya, the Vashya, and the Sudra in a descending order. According to the Hindu scriptures, the Brahmans have been sprung from the mouth of Brahma (Hindu god), the Kshatriyas from his arms, the Vashyas from his thigh and the Sudras from his feet.

Broadly, Hindus are divided into two groups: caste Hindus (also varna Hindus) and low-caste Hindus. The former includes the Brahman, the Kshatriya and the Vashya who are the descendants of the fair-skinned Aryan invaders and the latter includes the Sudras, who are dark in skin and are the offspring of the original inhabitants of India. In this group is also included the most unfortunate Dalit who is outcaste because he falls outside the original fourfold groupings. He is untouchable because his touch is bound to pollute the other castes and that is why he must always remain at a sufficient distance from them.

The fourfold division is not the end of the caste system; the community is subdivided into thousands of sub-castes (gotras). According to a survey undertaken by the Anthropological Survey of India during 1985-92, those who are called Hindu are divided among 2,800 unique communities. The so-called low-caste Hindus are officially divided into three broad groups, namely Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and Other Backward Classes. According to this survey, these groups are subdivided into [Scheduled Castes-450,] , [Scheduled Tribes-461], and [Other Backward Classes-766] distinct communities respectively [Dalit Voice, 15:4, p. 20.].

The great distinctions of caste are to be maintained not only in the earthly life, but also after death. According to Markandaya Purana, after death, the virtuous Brahman goes to the abode of Brahma, the good Kshatriya to that of Indra, the worthy Vashya to that of the Maruts, and the dutiful Sudra to that of the Gandharvas [John C. Oman, The Brahmans, Theists, and Muslims of India, Delhi, 1973, p. 50]. Apparently, the Untouchable (Dalit) does not deserve any place in any heaven, may be because of his untouchability.

ORIGIN OF THE CASTE SYSTEM
'Caste' is a Portuguese word, used by the Portuguese as equivalent of 'varna' (a Sanskrit word, which means 'colour'). They used this word to designate the peculiar system of religious and social distinction which they observed among those who are called Hindu. Caste originally was a colour-bar, and in India, as later in America, served at first to separate free men from slaves. Gradually, the Brahmans made it a religiously ordained social fabric for the Hindu society. Manu, a Brahman, gave in his book, Dharma shastra, details about the caste system.

When the fair-skinned Aryans invaded India, about two thousand years before Jesus Christ (pbuh), they defeated the dark-skinned indigenous people, Dravidians, who were the founder of the Indian Civilization. The Aryans subjugated them, learnt many things from them and built up another civilization which came to be known as the Ganges Valley or Hindu Civilization. To perpetuate the enslavement of the original inhabitants of India, the Aryans created the caste system, and thereby excluded them from their own society with the name of Sudra (which means slave).

In the words of S.V. Theertha, "When the ancient priests set themselves up as an exclusive caste of Brahmans in order to establish their self-assumed superiority, they had to inflict degradation on all other Hindus (i.e., original Indians) and press them down to various layers of subordination. They had to keep the people divided, disunited, weak and degraded, to deny them learning, refinement and opportunities of advancement, and permanently and unalterably to tie them down to a low status in society. The Hindu social organization based on hereditary castes was evolved by the Brahmans with the above object and was enforced on the people with the help of foreign conquerors." [Theertha, p.1 64.]

CASTE DETERMINES DUTY
In Hindu community, the basic duty of every individual is determined by his caste. The Brahman is the rightful possessor of the Veda and is the chief of the whole creation. He has the exclusive right to become a priest. It is through his benevolence that other mortals enjoy life.

The Kshatriya is described as the dispenser of justice, particularly as the one whose duty it is to punish law-breakers; he exercises the civil power and to his tender mercies the Brahmans could hand over law- breakers. He has to see that the various castes attend to their prescribed duties; but in doing this work he must abide by the decisions of the Brahmans.

The Vashya comprises the merchant, the agriculturist, and the keeper of cattle. His chief work is keeping cattle.

The Sudra has been created to serve the other three castes (i.e., the fair-skinned Aryans). "He is spoken of as a slave, his property, as well as his person, being at the disposal of his master." [Wilkins, Modern Hinduism, London, 1975, p. 247.]

The Untouchable (Dalit) is to perform the most unpleasant tasks: cleaning lavatories, carrying night soil, skinning carcasses and making footwear.

SOCIAL, ECONOMIC & OTHER ASPECTS
The social, economic and other aspects of life are controlled by the caste regulation. Caste differences are largely invoked while arranging marriages and eating together. For rural Indians, castes shape almost every aspect of their lives: the food they eat and who can cook it; how they bathe; the colour of their clothes; the length of a sari (cloth worn by a woman); how the dhoti (cloth worn by a Hindu man) is tied; which way a man's moustaches are trimmed and whether he can carry an umbrella. Everything is determined by caste and nothing is left to chance.

Caste regulations formulated by Manu are discriminatory in nature; they favour the Aryan Hindus and discriminate against the so-called low-caste Hindus. In teaching the duties of the 1ow-caste people concerning marriage, Manu declares that a man aged thirty may marry a girl of twelve, and a man of twenty-four years may marry a girl of eight. He, however, is very particular about the marriage regulations of Brahmans. A Brahman must avoid marrying a girl whose family has produced no sons, that which has thick hair on the body, or is afflicted with hereditary disease. Let him choose for his wife a girl whose form has no defect, who has an agreeable manner, who walks gracefully like a young elephant, and whose body has exquisite softness [ Ibid., p. 196.].

Punishment for offence is also determined by discriminatory caste regulations. A crime against a man of his own caste by a Sudra is venial offence; but a similar offence committed against a man belonging to so- called higher caste is proportionately greater. If a Sudra through pride dares to give instructions to priests concerning their duty, hot oil will be dropped into his mouth and ears. A high-caste man having intercourse with a Sudra woman is to be banished; a Sudra having intercourse with a woman of the superior castes is to be put to death. Whatever a Brahman's offence, the king must on no account put him to death; he may, at the most, banish him, allowing him to take his property with him. Further, in case of wrongdoing against him, a Brahman need not approach the civil court, he is free to take vengeance upon the offender [See Wilkins, 1975, pp. 239-40; Oman, p. 52.]

Inferiority of The Dalit
The so-called Dalits (Untouchables) are the most pitiable victims of the obnoxious and pernicious caste system. Manu has little to say about them. He affirms that the members of three castes, the Brahman, the Kshatriya, and the Vashya, are twice-born; the fourth, the Sudra, once-born; there is no fifth.' All others are outcastes. The common name Dasyas (slaves) is applied to them all. [Wilkins: Modern Hinduism, London: 1975, p. 263]

The treatment accorded to the Dalit is simply inhuman. According to Manu Smriti, 'Outcasted persons have no share in inheritance.'[ John C. Oman, The Brahmans, Theists, and Muslims of India, Delhi, 1973, p. 47.] The orthodox Brahmans still believe, if the shadow of a Dalit falls on them, they are polluted and will have to purify them by sprinkling over themse1ves water from the holy river, the Ganges [F.M. Sandeela, Islam, Christianity and Hinduism, Delhi, 1990, pp. 69-70]. 'You may breed cows and dogs in your house,' wrote Mr. M.C. Raja. 'You may drink the urine of cows and swallow cowdung to expiate your sins, but you shall not approach an Adi Dravida [i.e., original Indians: Dalits, Sudras, tribal people].

These people are still denied the use of public wells and tanks and at the same time stigmatized as unclean. They are still kept out of schools and colleges maintained by public funds and at the same time despised as ignorant and illiterate. They are still Shut out from temples, and yet branded as ungodly and unfit to associate with. For access to public roads and even for spaces to bury the dead, they have to depend much on the capricious benevolence of their caste-Hindu neighbours. [Swami Dharma Theertha, History of Hindu Imperialism, (Madras: 1992), pp. 184-85, quoted from P. Chidambaram Pillai's Right of Temple

I had posted the above article on viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6324&p=86917&hilit=brahmins#p86917

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 10:59 pm
by Rebel
GM-very informative article....and yes, I have had an opportunity to speak with someone who identified that all our rulers, kothar and company were at one time Hindu Brahmins before being converted to this deviant cult therefore they tend to rule us and many other bohras were low caste Hindus so they are bound to obey all the orders of their rulers. How sad. Prophet broke the chains and kothar fastened us again in caste and class system.

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 5:25 pm
by ghulam muhammed
There is No Caste System in Islam

Islam from day one has been proclaiming Tawheed – oneness of God and oneness of humanity and alhamdulillah – all praise be to God – there has been no compromise on this fundamental principle considered by all as the lifeline of the Islamic faith.

“There is no difference between an Arab and a non-Arab” is the famous golden saying of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be to him). But unfortunately the concept of kufu, which works like a caste system, has crept into the Muslim society somehow or the other.

A section of the Ulema is responsible for it. They believe and preach in total disregard to the Islamic values that we must follow some rules and principles in matrimonial affairs to maintain and strengthen the family system and save it from chaos and disintegration. Thus they have framed some rules based on ancestry, financial background, occupation, etc. This is against the very letter and spirit of the Holy Qur'an and Ahadith and a blot to the fair name of Islam. They have not quoted the Holy Qur'an or Ahadith for these rules of kufu.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be to him) has said that if a man of good faith and character seeks alliance; give your daughter in marriage to him. Even in many states in India inter-caste marriages are encouraged by giving awards to the couples of such marriages. It is here we see the Islamic light.

History is testimony to the fact that Islam has influenced people of different cultural and social backgrounds in different countries.

The Holy Qur'an and Ahadith say that the differences we see among the people of the world are just for the sake of identification and the best among us are only those who are pious and God-fearing. We cannot underestimate or consider any section of people lower or inferior. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be to him) not only preached equality among the people, Arabs and non-Arabs, but also actually practised and implemented it in his innumerable actions and deeds. Everyone still remembers and gets inspired how Bilal, a black slave, was liberated and elevated to the high position of Muazzin in Makkah and how revolutionarily the Prophet arranged the marriage of his cousin, Bibi Zainab – a Quraish lady – with Zaid bin Haritha – his liberated slave and his “adopted” son.

Islam also made history when Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be to him) and his companions migrated to Madinah. How the Muslims in Madinah came forward to sacrifice everything for the migrated Muslims is something unprecedented and unheard of in the annals of the world history. The Muslims, spread the world over, are to a great extent a beautiful community of multi-cultural heritage. The religion of Islam which has embraced the whole world under its catholic and universal codes of brotherhood cannot and does not give importance to any sectarian or caste consideration.

The meaning given to a ghair kuf by some as “someone below one’s status in terms of caste, family or occupation” is misleading and Brahmanic in nature! Only those who have an Aryan attitude can think so.

There are many instances of the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be to him) to prove that the concept of kufu as propagated by a section is nothing to do with Islam and in fact it is an innovation detrimental to the human society and pristine pure Islamic values of equality and brotherhood.

When Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be to him) asked the respected tribe Banu Biyaza to give any one of their women in marriage to Abu Hind, a slave and barber, they wanted to know if they should marry their daughters to their slaves. At this time the verse was revealed, “O man! Behold, we have created you all out of a male and a female and have made you into nations and tribes so that you might come to know one another. Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all knowing, all aware (Al-Quran, Al-Hujjaraat 49:13) This verse has rejected the concept of castes and biradaris. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be to him) praised Abu Hind as a man of strong faith and character. There is no question of any religious importance being given to ancestral, financial or occupational status. The only criterion is religiosity and piety on which most religious scholars agree.

The castes, biradaris, etc. found among the Muslims are their own making and Islam is not responsible for it. Islam stands for oneness of God and mankind.

http://www.radianceweekly.com/206/5466/ ... islam.html

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:03 pm
by Rebel
GM- thank you for sharing such a good article. "Islam stands for oneness of God and mankind". "There is no difference between an Arab and a non-Arab". But we do have huge differences between kothar and community people. I feel that kothar consider themselves to be superior to the other community members. They act and show themselves that they are superior to others. Why do we have so much division and disharmony in our community? I guess then it is not our community that has class and caste system there are other Muslims who have this thriving in their communities as well.

Re: Caste system in the community

Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:17 pm
by Rebel
I agree, their free will and their capacity to think rationally and logically has been obliterated by mullahs. I am amazed to see that people living in the western culture cannot raise their voice against the injustices of the mullahs.