Obviously the bohras were at home sleeping that night!!he continued throughout the night till fajar azan and by that time the bayan was not completed,
Proof for Bro Ghulam Mohammad about Matam
Re: PROOF FOR BRO GHULAM MOHAMMAD REF MATAM
Re: PROOF FOR BRO GHULAM MOHAMMAD REF MATAM
yes people like anajmi who tries to intermingle with bohras and poke their nose in bohras affairs unnecessarily and uninvited.
Re: PROOF FOR BRO GHULAM MOHAMMAD REF MATAM
Actually all bohra affairs are my affairs. Most of my family is still bohra and the ignorance that I hear them utter about deen, Islam and Quran is mind boggling. Statements like "sorry sir i dont know or may not be permitted to share that" are the mark of one who is a con artist. Allah says in the Quran
2:159.
Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidence and guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones cursed by Allah and cursed by the cursers.
2:160
Except those who repent and do righteous deeds, and openly declare (the truth which they concealed). These, I will accept their repentance. And I am the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.
So salaar, if you don't want to be from those who have been cursed, do not make idiotic statements like "may not be permitted to share". Whoever has denied you this permission is cursed and so are you, by Allah himself!!
2:159.
Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidence and guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones cursed by Allah and cursed by the cursers.
2:160
Except those who repent and do righteous deeds, and openly declare (the truth which they concealed). These, I will accept their repentance. And I am the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.
So salaar, if you don't want to be from those who have been cursed, do not make idiotic statements like "may not be permitted to share". Whoever has denied you this permission is cursed and so are you, by Allah himself!!
Re: PROOF FOR BRO GHULAM MOHAMMAD REF MATAM
Of course, now salaar will say that you have to read between the lines of the Quran. These people are good at ignoring the actual lines and always reading between the lines!!
Re: PROOF FOR BRO GHULAM MOHAMMAD REF MATAM
Salaar u are a pathetic loser, u started with ALIF laam MIM, failed miserably, and now jumping around with usual rhetoric.
its a shame
its a shame
Re: Proof for Bro Ghulam Mohammad about Matam
fools you try all your life to learn the meaning of alif laam meem or other initiating letters and you will roam round and round without success.
Re: Proof for Bro Ghulam Mohammad about Matam
A person who tries all his life to learn the meaning of Alif Laam Meem is better in status in the eyes of Allah than the one who hides the meaning of Alif Laam Meem. The one who searches for knowledge is commended in the Quran and the one who hides it is cursed. It doesn't matter whether you find the meaning or not. The search itself is rewarding.
Re: Proof for Bro Ghulam Mohammad about Matam
go ahead its your destiny
Re: Proof for Bro Ghulam Mohammad about Matam
I am. My destiny is golden inshaAllah. There is a reason why I can quote the relevant ayahs and you always hide behind hidden meanings that obviously, no one knows including your Imam who himself is hiding.
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ghulam muhammed
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Re: Proof for Bro Ghulam Mohammad about Matam
An article which appeared on this forum some time back :-
Maatam, as an expression of spontaneous grief, first occurred among the Ladies of the Ahl-e-bayt on the day of martyrdom of Husain (a.s.). Imam Zain al-Abideen (a.s.) joined them in expressing the grief. Beating parts of body like cheeks, breasts or thighs during grief was a common custom amongst Arabs and there is a hadith regarding Prophet (s.a.w.) himself beating his thighs in grief.
During the 200 years following the death of the Prophet (s.a.w.), before the Shia identity had completely solidified, there was much jockeying for political power amongst various groups of Muslims. One manner in which groups shape a unique identity is through rituals. Re-enacting Zainab’s and Zain al-Abideen’s laments lent themselves as a fodder for a unique ritual and the leaders of the nascent Shia community took advantage of this episode to fashion this maatam ritual. Its primary purpose was to focus the group’s attention towards wresting political power for their leaders from their rivals.
It so happened that the power was won by ahle-hadith, a rival to the Shia. Ahle-hadith were able to rule the majority of Muslims, who by default, accepted the ruling elites’ bias and became ahle-hadith or, as we now know them, Sunnis. People forget that this was purely a political victory and they think that because this group is in the majority, it is true Islam. Nothing is further from truth. Originally, both Ahle-hadith and the Shia were equal in numbers. Majority of either are not thinkers, they are followers.
The Shia group split into Ithna-asharis and Ismailies. Ithna-asharis remained in political doldrums in the hostile Sunni Abbasid environment and their leaders used Maatam as a counterbalance to the Sunnis with the ultimate aim to secure power for the family of the Prophet (s.a.w.). Ithna-asharis are still engaged in this power play.
Ismailies, on the other hand, were successful in establishing an empire in North Africa, the Fatimid dynasty. Thus the use of the ritual of maatam declined as a political tool to overthrow rival dynasties like the Abbasids. Fatimids were too busy consolidating their own empire. Thus, maatam lost its force during the Fatimid period.
Thus, amongst Ismailies, Bohras and Khojas, maatam did not have the same intensity as amongst the Ithna-asharis. Maatam was re-introduced amongst Bohras because of their closeness to Ithna-asharis in India. While Ithna-asharis had a clear focus to regain power for the family of the Prophet (s.a.w.), Bohras have no such purpose. Their maatam is simply a ploy that the ruling class uses for their own purpose. This is, as others have rightly pointed out, to keep Bohras in subjugation.
Bohras have disgracefully turned maatam into Ibaadat. This has no sanction from Quran or from Imams. We know that at least one Dai has sought to ban the practice altogether.
Immediate expression of grief when a calamity befalls is understandable. But to create a ritual drama with steady and gradual increase in violence of self-flagellation for an ancient calamitous event has no place in a civilized society. Continuous output of marsiyas, breast beating, etc with no objective to plan for recovering the power, is a tool of subjugation; a tool for retaining power by Kothar over Bohras. Bohras should wake up and stop it, one person at a time."
Matam is just a great tool in the hands of user masters to keep the crowd (masses) in line and in tune. This is just for controlling mass psychology. You keep the group of people 'combined' and 'attached' to ONE thing for which they are willing to do anything. Its like when a Leader is giving speech and in between resorts to chanting slogans (singing, dancing etc too).
These people are clever hence they say Ghum-e-Hussain is extreme and no Ghum equates that Ghum so at no other time or Ghum one feels the need to do Matam.
Secondly, the masses always need a Martyr, hence you should provide one, once you have an 'established' Martyr, you need a flag bearer of that Martyr so that people can associate and connect to that Martyr. Hence Dai is the Flag Bearer of Hussain (a.s.) .......... if you LOVE the Martyr you have to love the flag bearer.
Also, you need to have an 'Enemy' identified for masses ....... where will the anger go, where it will be pointed to ....... if there is Martyr, who was the bad guy ........ again, these guys are so clever, with Yazid (they know most of the Muslims would agree Yazid was evil) it will not work that good (and masses MAY connect to Other Muslim sects), you need to have your OWN enemy, hence create hatred for First Three Caliphs (serves two purposes - provides a 'powerful' enemy AND disconnects abde syednas from all other muslim sects).
Maatam, as an expression of spontaneous grief, first occurred among the Ladies of the Ahl-e-bayt on the day of martyrdom of Husain (a.s.). Imam Zain al-Abideen (a.s.) joined them in expressing the grief. Beating parts of body like cheeks, breasts or thighs during grief was a common custom amongst Arabs and there is a hadith regarding Prophet (s.a.w.) himself beating his thighs in grief.
During the 200 years following the death of the Prophet (s.a.w.), before the Shia identity had completely solidified, there was much jockeying for political power amongst various groups of Muslims. One manner in which groups shape a unique identity is through rituals. Re-enacting Zainab’s and Zain al-Abideen’s laments lent themselves as a fodder for a unique ritual and the leaders of the nascent Shia community took advantage of this episode to fashion this maatam ritual. Its primary purpose was to focus the group’s attention towards wresting political power for their leaders from their rivals.
It so happened that the power was won by ahle-hadith, a rival to the Shia. Ahle-hadith were able to rule the majority of Muslims, who by default, accepted the ruling elites’ bias and became ahle-hadith or, as we now know them, Sunnis. People forget that this was purely a political victory and they think that because this group is in the majority, it is true Islam. Nothing is further from truth. Originally, both Ahle-hadith and the Shia were equal in numbers. Majority of either are not thinkers, they are followers.
The Shia group split into Ithna-asharis and Ismailies. Ithna-asharis remained in political doldrums in the hostile Sunni Abbasid environment and their leaders used Maatam as a counterbalance to the Sunnis with the ultimate aim to secure power for the family of the Prophet (s.a.w.). Ithna-asharis are still engaged in this power play.
Ismailies, on the other hand, were successful in establishing an empire in North Africa, the Fatimid dynasty. Thus the use of the ritual of maatam declined as a political tool to overthrow rival dynasties like the Abbasids. Fatimids were too busy consolidating their own empire. Thus, maatam lost its force during the Fatimid period.
Thus, amongst Ismailies, Bohras and Khojas, maatam did not have the same intensity as amongst the Ithna-asharis. Maatam was re-introduced amongst Bohras because of their closeness to Ithna-asharis in India. While Ithna-asharis had a clear focus to regain power for the family of the Prophet (s.a.w.), Bohras have no such purpose. Their maatam is simply a ploy that the ruling class uses for their own purpose. This is, as others have rightly pointed out, to keep Bohras in subjugation.
Bohras have disgracefully turned maatam into Ibaadat. This has no sanction from Quran or from Imams. We know that at least one Dai has sought to ban the practice altogether.
Immediate expression of grief when a calamity befalls is understandable. But to create a ritual drama with steady and gradual increase in violence of self-flagellation for an ancient calamitous event has no place in a civilized society. Continuous output of marsiyas, breast beating, etc with no objective to plan for recovering the power, is a tool of subjugation; a tool for retaining power by Kothar over Bohras. Bohras should wake up and stop it, one person at a time."
Matam is just a great tool in the hands of user masters to keep the crowd (masses) in line and in tune. This is just for controlling mass psychology. You keep the group of people 'combined' and 'attached' to ONE thing for which they are willing to do anything. Its like when a Leader is giving speech and in between resorts to chanting slogans (singing, dancing etc too).
These people are clever hence they say Ghum-e-Hussain is extreme and no Ghum equates that Ghum so at no other time or Ghum one feels the need to do Matam.
Secondly, the masses always need a Martyr, hence you should provide one, once you have an 'established' Martyr, you need a flag bearer of that Martyr so that people can associate and connect to that Martyr. Hence Dai is the Flag Bearer of Hussain (a.s.) .......... if you LOVE the Martyr you have to love the flag bearer.
Also, you need to have an 'Enemy' identified for masses ....... where will the anger go, where it will be pointed to ....... if there is Martyr, who was the bad guy ........ again, these guys are so clever, with Yazid (they know most of the Muslims would agree Yazid was evil) it will not work that good (and masses MAY connect to Other Muslim sects), you need to have your OWN enemy, hence create hatred for First Three Caliphs (serves two purposes - provides a 'powerful' enemy AND disconnects abde syednas from all other muslim sects).
Re: Proof for Bro Ghulam Mohammad about Matam
salaar wrote:fools you try all your life to learn the meaning of alif laam meem or other initiating letters and you will roam round and round without success.
and you already found its meaning? what isit?
Re: Proof for Bro Ghulam Mohammad about Matam
you already have my answer dont you? i again repeat there is a match going on between a cricket and a football team on one ground both follow different rules both have different expertise what is common to debate about.
Re: Proof for Bro Ghulam Mohammad about Matam
Actually, it is more like one team is playing cricket and hitting sixes and the other team is playing chuppa chuppi and hiding behind the hidden Imam!!
Re: Proof for Bro Ghulam Mohammad about Matam
dont we have same GOD same Prophet and Same book of ALLAH?salaar wrote:you already have my answer dont you? i again repeat there is a match going on between a cricket and a football team on one ground both follow different rules both have different expertise what is common to debate about.
how can we be different?