Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

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dal-chaval-palidu
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#661

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:21 pm

Sceptical wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:40 pm The existence of God can not be proven by the scientific method, nor his non-existence.

Fact : Scientific theory shows that our universe could appear without the need of a creator.

Reasoning by analogy (chair therefore creator, universe therefore creator) leads to errors of logic.

The only point I agree with STF when he says that God is beyond understanding. Believe in God is an act of faith. Period.
Referring to the sentence in Green above, I agree. Belief in God is an act of Faith; unlikely to be proved one way or the other in a logical sense. There is a hadith of Rasullah (SAW) related to the same, I think. I saw it in a (non-Bohra) masjid a while back. It was along the following lines (from memory):

"What is Faith? It is to believe that there is a God, even though you cannot see him, to believe in is angels, the day of judgement, .. ".

It may be related to the following (from Sahih Muslim)

http://www.iupui.edu/~msaiupui/001.smt.html

From the above reference:

One day we were sitting in the company of Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) when there appeared before us a man dressed in pure white clothes, his hair extraordinarily black. There were no signs of travel on him. None amongst us recognized him. At last he sat with the Apostle (peace be upon him) He knelt before him placed his palms on his thighs and said: Muhammad, inform me about al-Islam. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Al-Islam implies that you testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and you establish prayer, pay Zakat, observe the fast of Ramadan, and perform pilgrimage to the (House) if you are solvent enough (to bear the expense of) the journey. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (Umar ibn al-Khattab) said: It amazed us that he would put the question and then he would himself verify the truth. He (the inquirer) said: Inform me about Iman (faith). He (the Holy Prophet) replied: That you affirm your faith in Allah, in His angels, in His Books, in His Apostles, in the Day of Judgment, and you affirm your faith in the Divine Decree about good and evil. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (the inquirer) again said: Inform me about al-Ihsan (performance of good deeds). He (the Holy Prophet) said: That you worship Allah as if you are seeing Him, for though you don't see Him, He, verily, sees you

It might be from the above hadith, but I am no expert on religion.

objectiveobserver53
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#662

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:32 pm

Biradar I understand enough of quantum physics and cosmology and I do study the Bohra theory of creation as well and I have learned enough to see parallels in both. Conversion of “energy” to matter factors into both theories. One factors in the hand of the creator and the other does not. That is the biggest difference. Your ad hominem is wasted on me. The more I know, pthe more I am willing to acknowledge how little I know and the more I make room for a higher power. My faith stems from knowledge not ignorance. That is not to say that the faith of those who do not do not seek evidence of God is less, perhaps it is greater.

ajamali
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#663

Unread post by ajamali » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:39 pm

When was the last time Mufaddal Saifuddin generated such thoughtful discussion? Kseeker is right. Give credit where it is due.

RedBox
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:41 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#664

Unread post by RedBox » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:25 am

until taher acknowledges failures and faults of his dad and uncle and accepts the blunders, he cant be trusted at all. this all youtube thing is to attract people in to his fold.

speak truth first and accept how they did blunders to get more and more money from people and kept them ignorant from deen to milk them.

Crater Lake
Posts: 359
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#665

Unread post by Crater Lake » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:11 am

ajamali wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:39 pm When was the last time Mufaddal Saifuddin generated such thoughtful discussion? Kseeker is right. Give credit where it is due.
When was the last time Mufaddal Saifuddin generated any thought of the Almighty at all?? It always stops at Mola Mola with him.....He is slave to the Strongmen of this Earth - dirty politicians and filthy power brokers. Far be it for him to spare a thought for the sublime.

And by “dirty,” I mean stained with the blood of innocent people.

Biradar
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#666

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:01 pm

kseeker wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:05 pm .... therefore, your question of "who made the creator?" becomes invalid.. this statement was made to give a daleel that there is a creator.. the argument ends there. your question is now a completely separate matter to which the Quran says " the creator is incomprehensible" ....

...

I do not believe either TF or MS are the rightful Dais.. both are just power hungry people, like their fathers and grand fathers before them.. but one needs to give credit where it's due..coming out to explain the ideas of cosmology and creation from an Fatimid perspective in a simple manner is a great step...

All this aside, if you have any material worth sharing (Islamic or otherwise) which would give a good explanation of theories of creation/evolution, I would be glad to read...
Thank you for reading and raising interesting and thoughtful questions.

First, if one can say "the creator is incomprehensible" then one can also say that "the vacuum from which the universe arose is incomprehensible". Once one accepts that there is one thing that is incomprehensible, then there is no reason to assume there are not other things that are incomprehensible.

Second, you say that Qur'an says "the creator is incomprehensible" but clearly that is a false statement, isn't it? The Qur'an is the word of the Creator and we comprehend it, at least to some level. So clearly the creator is comprehensible in this sense. I believe the Qur'anic verses should be interpreted as saying that the act of creation described in the Qur'an (for example, Quran 36:82) is something which remains a mystery (not that the creator himself is incomprehensible).

There is actually some depth to the cosmological principles in Islam, specially in Ismailism (though this is not unique as many other branches of Islam have complex and well-developed philosophical systems). I will be happy to share some documents on this and other things, something I have meaning to do for a while. In short, put up papers, excerpts from books etc somewhere online so people can read and explore for themselves. Let us see.

As I said in my original post "Overall, I think this lecture series is a good idea". But, the reality of the matter is that these type of questions (of cosmology, free-will, evolution etc) can't be answered from religious texts or by religious leaders any more. Sure, they can inform some historical understanding, but to claim that they can reveal some truth to us is to betray a lack of understanding of the tremendous progress made in the last few decades in these fields. During the time of the Imam and the early du'at there was not much quantitative knowledge of cosmology or physics. Hence, they operated in a vacuum and made speculations. 1000 years later we don't need to speculate. Reality is that the picture revealed to us by modern physics is much more deeper and quantitatively accurate, than from any ancient text. Mathematics is the language of modern physics and cosmology. If one want to really understand one must learn this language and become somewhat proficient in it.

In any case, my other point was to simply point out that being fanboys of STF or Muffy or any other SXX is not a good idea. The Creator has given each of us a brain and instructed us to use it. So let us use it. All these SXXs will tell us "trust us and believe us blindly" or "sajda mujhe waajib hay" or something like that. We need to realize that these people are also just human, perhaps even more flawed than ordinary people in that their greed for power and money exceeds all bounds of modesty and reasonableness, and as such have no moral or ethical high-ground from which to expect others to follow them uncritically.

Biradar
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#667

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:11 pm

Sceptical wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:40 pm The existence of God can not be proven by the scientific method, nor his non-existence.

Fact : Scientific theory shows that our universe could appear without the need of a creator.

Reasoning by analogy (chair therefore creator, universe therefore creator) leads to errors of logic.

The only point I agree with STF when he says that God is beyond understanding. Believe in God is an act of faith. Period.
Yes, it is actually completely clear at this point that our universe could appear without the need of a creator. Not only that, the evolution of the universe is in essence determined by some (in principle) "simple" laws of physics. It is also true that the systems which emerge are complex and perhaps can't be immediately understood from first-principles, but there is no reason to think that there are no first-principles in the first place.

But the reality of the matter is that the resistance you see here is that if something as fundamental as the existence of a creator can't be proved, how can one the follow the minute nitty-gritty details of religious law? Does the creator (who may or may not exist and likely has little role in the created universe) really care if you have a beard, or put weight on your left foot when you use the bathroom? Or that you recite some sentences in a language you don't even understand while cleaning yourself after? It is all absurd. Hence the deep fear that some believers have of even broaching these topics. Better to remain blind and unthinking lest a little bit of logic destroy the house of sand you are now occupying.

MohammedG
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#668

Unread post by MohammedG » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:47 pm

Do we have free will? Or is everything determined by destiny (naseeb)? Do we have a destiny (naseeb)?

If our fate is predetermined then how can we be rewarded or punished for our actions?

Both destiny and free will are asserted by the Quran: Which one is it?

https://youtu.be/qOMKZp-rgOI

Second video in the Majalis al Hikma series

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOMKZp-rgOI

RedBox
Posts: 260
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#669

Unread post by RedBox » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:31 pm

COVID19 Assistance
26 March 2020

Syedna Fakhruddin TUS is concerned for the wellbeing of all Mumineen, especially those who are struggling to meet their day to day needs because of the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. Syedna TUS has directed all community welfare organizations, volunteers, and Mumineen in general, to help those who need assistance in any way possible.

Those requiring support and assistance during this time of need, can contact the dedicated Fatemi Dawat Help Desk through ncovresponse@fatemidawat.com or by WhatsApp +91 8828227864.

ajamali
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#670

Unread post by ajamali » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:43 am

EC2C4F45-890A-4E4B-B212-EAF176076FF1.jpeg
*Majalis al Hikma*
*مجالس الحكمة*

All links point to YouTube videos

*Dawat ni Zabaan*
majl.is/1dz Khuda chhe toh kahaan chhe?
majl.is/2dz Insaan Ne Ikhtiyaar Chhe Ke Nahin?
majl.is/3dz Zindagi No Maqsad Su Chhe?
majl.is/4dz Aql Su Cheez Chhe?
majl.is/5dz Haqq Ni Falsafat Su Chhe?
majl.is/6dz Mushkil Haalaat Ma Sukoon Kem Haasil Karvu?
majl.is/dz YouTube playlist of all Dawat ni Zabaan majalis

*English*
majl.is/1 Where is God?
majl.is/2 Do We Have Free Will?
majl.is/3 What is the Purpose of Life?
majl.is/4 What is the Origin of the Intellect?
majl.is/5 What is the Philosophy of Dawatul Haqq?
majl.is/6 How can you get peace of mind in times of difficulty?
majl.is/english YouTube playlist of all English majalis

SBM
Posts: 6468
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#671

Unread post by SBM » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:41 am

*English*
majl.is/1 Where is God?
SITTING IN SAIFEE MAHAL and THANE
majl.is/2 Do We Have Free Will?
NO- because you call yourself ABDE and AMTE
majl.is/3 What is the Purpose of Life?
Majlis-Maatam and Jaman
majl.is/4 What is the Origin of the Intellect?
Dai Ul Waqat(according to cult leaders)
majl.is/5 What is the Philosophy of Dawatul Haqq?
Collect as much as Wajebaat and Rule like king
majl.is/6 How can you get peace of mind in times of difficulty?
By remembering Allaha and his Barakat and get away doing Moula Moula-Aqa Moula

Crater Lake
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#672

Unread post by Crater Lake » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:52 am

SBM wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:41 am *English*
majl.is/1 Where is God?
SITTING IN SAIFEE MAHAL and THANE
majl.is/2 Do We Have Free Will?
NO- because you call yourself ABDE and AMTE
majl.is/3 What is the Purpose of Life?
Majlis-Maatam and Jaman
majl.is/4 What is the Origin of the Intellect?
Dai Ul Waqat(according to cult leaders)
majl.is/5 What is the Philosophy of Dawatul Haqq?
Collect as much as Wajebaat and Rule like king
majl.is/6 How can you get peace of mind in times of difficulty?
By remembering Allaha and his Barakat and get away doing Moula Moula-Aqa Moula
I think you should take the lesson before trying to attempt the Quiz. 8) :D You will be surprised that you are wrong in the assumptions that you have made. I believe you are extending the faults of the bumbling Muffy regime to STF.

SBM
Posts: 6468
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#673

Unread post by SBM » Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:37 pm

Sr CL
The Quiz is so simple that one really does not need any lessons :D If one has not learnt for past century of being called Abde or Amte then one will never learn. To expand my knowledge, how do the followers of STF call themselves, Abdes/Amtes or some other titles

Crater Lake
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#674

Unread post by Crater Lake » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:38 pm

SBM wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:37 pm Sr CL
The Quiz is so simple that one really does not need any lessons :D If one has not learnt for past century of being called Abde or Amte then one will never learn. To expand my knowledge, how do the followers of STF call themselves, Abdes/Amtes or some other titles
I don’t think we waste even a minute worrying about what we call ourselves. We call ourselves what we please. No one holds a gun to our heads ordering us to call ourselves one thing or another. We do spend a lot of time thinking about what we want our community to be like. We have a visionary at the helm and we like to think we take our cues from him but we have never felt that we are without a voice. Some of us also have a very clear idea about where we DO NOT want to go and what we do not want to be.

SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#675

Unread post by SBM » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:15 am

Sr CL
good response bypassing my simple question. :D :) :P

Crater Lake
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#676

Unread post by Crater Lake » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:36 am

SBM wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:15 am Sr CL
good response bypassing my simple question. :D :) :P
So I will answer it more directly. I don’t call myself amate Syedna because that’s just something I have never been comfortable doing. However that does not mean I do not have utmost faith in STF’s leadership or that I doubt that I benefit from his dua or that I benefitted from SKQs or SMB’s duas. Quite honestly, nobody has ever given me any trouble that I do not sign my name a certain way.

But then that’s not to say that other people among STF’s following do not choose that designation for themselves. I just don’t know. Perhaps they do. One thing I can tell you is that it is not of much significance whether you do or not.

Biradar
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#677

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:03 pm

In his last zikr of the series "Majalis al Hikma" STF explained the importance of the month of Ramadan, and why it is more afzal than other months of the year. His explanation is rather interesting, at least in the sense of understanding something of Ismaili ta'wil and its numerology. Some key points with elaborations not present in his lecture for those who are interested.

He says that Ramadan is the ninth month of the year, and is considered the month of Allah. Why is this the case? And why fast in this month? S. Hussain the 8th da'i al-mutlaq says that this ninth month of the year corresponds to the rank of the Prophets' successor and wasi, Maulana Ali bin Abi Talib. It alludes to the shaan of M Ali. The numerical correspondence for this is that Ali is the ninth wasi. This is an allusion to the Ismaili interpretation of the cyclical nature of prophethood and, in this particular case, of each prophet's successor, his wasi. So, Adam had two wasis, Noah had one, Ebrahim had two Moosa had two and Isa had one. Hence, the wasi of Muhammad was the ninth wasi in the series, and also their seal and most exalted one of them, their master (sayyid al-awsiya).

In this scheme, according to, for example, S. Qadi al-Nu'man, the twelve months of the year symbolically correspond to the twelve companions of the Speaker Prophets (i.e. the major Prophets who brought a new religious law or shariaa). Hence, the ninth month is most exalted as it corresponds to the rank of Ali, who is the chief of all the companions of all the Speaker Prophets.

Incidentally, S. Qadi al-Nu'man also mentions in his book Ta'wil al-da'aim that the position of Ramadan being the ninth month corresponds to the position of M. Ali, however the knowledge of this is a secret of the da'wa and is protected by its ta'wil. There are many such correspondences, including the days of fasting, of the Eid at the end of the month and the time between the Eids etc in S. Qadi al-Nu'man's books which would be very tedious to repeat here at present.

A second point STF says is that in the Qur'an it is said (for example, Surah Al-Baqarah verse 185) that the Qur'an itself was revealed in the month of Ramadan. However, historically, the Qur'an was revealed physically piecemeal to the Prophet over a period of 23 years. What is the explanation for this seeming contradiction? According to the da'is this is because the Qur'an in reality was revealed as a "madeh" to M Ali himself. (The Arabic word madeh means "praise"). STF calls this the real and exalted meaning of the phrase that "The month of Ramadhan is that in which was revealed the Qur'an".

In another way, he says, the month of Ramadan corresponds to the Imams from the progeny of Ali and Fatema and, according to STS also is a madeh to them.

(This may sound preposterous to those who do not fully comprehend the position of Ali in the scheme of things for the Shi'a and Ismailis in particular. M. Ali himself has said that he is the speaking Qu'ran and that there was no verse revealed to the Prophet for which the Prophet did not teach him its innermost secrets and meanings).

Hence, the importance of Ramadan is that it corresponds and indicates the position of Ali and the Imams, who are the awliaa Allah. They teach how to do the tawheed of Allah and how to recognize and worship him. Through them one can recognize Allah. STF says that these things are secret matters and should not be taught to those who do not keep love (walaayat) of awliaa in their hearts.

In fact, the taw'il meaning of fasting is to maintain secrets of awliaa and their teachings. Here STF quotes the Qu'ran from Surah Maryam verse 26 which says "So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful that I will fast, so I will not speak today to any man.'" Again, this seems like a contradiction: in one phrase Allah instructs Maryam to eat and drink but in the very next phrase tells her to not speak as she is fasting! The meaning of this is that one must protect the secrets of daw'a and ensure that it does not reach unworthy people, and that the purity of the knowledge is maintained.

In general, in Ismaili philosophy and theology many rituals of shariaa point to the da'wa hierarchy which exists both in the physical as well as the world of subtle beings. Hence, the fasts of Ramadan indicate indirectly the various beings in this celestial hierarchy, who serve as the qibla for believers and through whom worship of Allah can be performed correctly.

The rest of his lecture is exhortation to perform the rituals with conviction and not out of a feeling of compulsion. At one point he says that it is better to fall asleep with conviction rather than pray while in doubt

Overall, these lectures are pretty good, and give a good view into the philosophical underpining of the Tayebbi and Ismaili systems of Islam. Though, many of the interpretations of the Qu'ranic verses and rituals of the shariaa is somewhat of a stretch, requiring some leaps of imagination. However, the Ismailis are not unique in this and Sufis (both Sunni and Shi'a) also interpret the Qu'ran and shariaa in similar symbolic manner. The greatest and most influential of Sufi teachers, Ibn Arabi, for example, was a master at symbolic interpretations and delineating the paths on which a seeker could tread to achieve annihilation with the Divine Beloved, the ultimate goal of both Ismailis (in their cosmological myth of Fall and Reunion with the demiurge, Aashir Muddabir and hence upwards rank by rank toward their original position in the da'wa of the Third Emanation) as well as the Sufi seeker.

dal-chaval-palidu
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#678

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:59 pm

Allah knows that I have love for Maulana Ali in my heart, but I must admit that these numerology is just an enormous stretch of imagination; and I am frankly skeptical of it. And it is interesting how we typically only use the addition ("+") operator in our Ismaili numerology.

Respectfully, I would say that with the use of all the mathematical operators (a few example could be addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponential, logarithms, square root, cube root, ...), a combination of numbers can be reduced to almost anything.

The book of Allah is simple and for all to understand. The basis meaning of the Sura 3, Verse 7 is one from which I take a lot of solace.

Below is a translation from A. YUSUF ALI:

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not of well established meaning. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical (not of well established meaning), seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Respectfully, why not leave it at the above? And if you don't agree with this translation, look at a few others below [thank you, Google]. The translated language may be different, but the message is the same.

I respect STF, believe that he is the correct 54th dai. [As SKQ was most likely the true 53rd dai.] But these interpretations, I take them with caution. I could be wrong, but just my 2 bits. And Br. Birader, I appreciate your post and the explanation.

-------------------------- Some more translations of this verse -------------------------------------

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

ABDUL HALEEM
it is He who has sent this Scripture down to you [Prophet]. Some of its verses are definite in meaning- these are the cornerstone of the Scripture- and others are ambiguous. The perverse at heart eagerly pursue the ambiguities in their attempt to make trouble and to pin down a specific meaning of their own: only God knows the true meaning. Those firmly grounded in knowledge say, ‘We believe in it: it is all from our Lord’- only those with real perception will take heed-

DR. GHALI
He is The (One) Who has sent down upon you the Book, whereof are clear signs (i.e. Éayah = verses) that are the Essence (Literally: the Mother) of the Book, and others cosimilar (Or: ambiguous). So, as for (the ones) in whose hearts is swerving, they ever follow whatever (parts) of it are cosimilar, (inequitably) seeking temptation (to sedition), and (inequitably) seeking its interpretation; and in no way does anyone know its interpretation except Allah. And the ones firmly established in knowledge say, "We have believed in it; all is from the Providence of our Lord." And in no way does anyone constantly remember except the ones endowed with intellects.

MUHSIN KHAN
It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari).

PICKTHALL
He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

SHAKIR
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

MUFTI TAQI USMANI
He is the One who has revealed to you the Book (the Qur’ān). Out of it there are verses that are MuHkamāt (of established meaning), which are the principal verses of the Book, and some others are Mutashābihāt (whose definite meanings are unknown). Now those who have perversity in their hearts go after such part of it as is mutashābih, seeking (to create) discord, and searching for its interpretation (that meets their desires), while no one knows its interpretation except Allah; and those well-grounded in knowledge say: “We believe therein; all is from our Lord.” Only the men of understanding observe the advice.

ABUL ALA MAUDUDI(WITH TAFSIR)
(3:7) It is He Who has revealed the Book to you. Some of its verses are absolutely clear and lucid, and these are the core of the Book.5 Others are ambiguous.6 Those in whose hearts there is perversity, always go about the part which is ambiguous, seeking mischief and seeking to arrive at its meaning arbitrarily, although none knows their true meaning except Allah. On the contrary, those firmly rooted in knowledge say: 'We believe in it; it is all from our Lord alone.'7 No one derives true admonition from anything except the men of understanding.

DR. MUSTAFA KHATTAB, THE CLEAR QURAN
He is the One Who has revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Book, of which some verses are precise—they are the foundation of the Book—while others are elusive. Those with deviant hearts follow the elusive verses seeking ˹to spread˺ doubt through their ˹false˺ interpretations—but none grasps their ˹full˺ meaning except Allah. As for those well-grounded in knowledge, they say, “We believe in this ˹Quran˺—it is all from our Lord.” But none will be mindful ˹of this˺ except people of reason.

RedBox
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:41 am

Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#679

Unread post by RedBox » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:49 am

Ismaily are most bored and full of time people it seems, they have added subtracted and divided things when it was not even needed.

why do you need to have a connection of Imam Ali to everything

I remember they also says surah ahad and ayatul kursi is also represeting Imam Ali

I mean why and how

and why you need to do that.

Imam Ali is well established in Islam by his akhlaaq and way of life, I request Ismailis to stop passing time and not to try to equate Ali with Allah Nauzobillah

If Ali will be here he would behead this mullah instantly, he hated such equate in his life and wanted people to go to Quran and not to fantasy.

SBM
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#680

Unread post by SBM » Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:45 am

Biradar
However, the Ismailis are not unique in this and Sufis (both Sunni and Shi'a) also interpret the Qu'ran and shariaa in similar symbolic manner
Br Biradar
If we accept Ismailis and Sufi's version of Interpretation of Quran and still consider them Muslims then why the Muslim world calls Ahmedis (Qadiyanis) as Kaafir because they have their own interpretation of Quran and Mehdi
I did ask a very active member of Ahemdiyya community if they believe Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) to be the last messenger and he unequivocally said YES, he said where they differ with main stream Muslims is the Zahoor of Mehdi, they consider their leader to be Mehdi ( I am not sure if I agree to that, since according to my limited knowledge Zahoor of Mehdi will the end of world as we know and Mehdi is not supposed to die while their first leader Ghulam Qadyani died )

Biradar
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#681

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:23 am

dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:59 pm
The book of Allah is simple and for all to understand. The basis meaning of the Sura 3, Verse 7 is one from which I take a lot of solace.

Below is a translation from A. YUSUF ALI:

... but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
Actually, this verse shows exactly the opposite of what you are trying to prove. First: clearly the Qu'ran itself alludes in places that there are verses that are symbolic and not easy to understand. For example, in the early phrase of the verse you quoted.

The issue, however, is that the the punctuation you have used (and used by most exoteric translators of the Qu'ran) put the pause (full-stop) in the wrong place. The verse should really read:

"... but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge. Say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." The last phrase "those of understanding" clearly indicates that the zikr of Allah in the Qu'ran won't be understood except by those who posses an intellect.

In fact, STF also says this in the lecture I described. He says the Qu'ranic message is only understood by those possessing an intellect and that "logic" is needed. The logic may appear strange to you, but there is a systematic logic behind this and it is well founded.

The Qu'ran is a subtle and difficult book. It's verses are very hard to interpret and many incidents described in it have peculiar and magical character. Consider, for example the story of Moses when he meets a stranger (unnamed in the Qu'ran) as described in Surah al-Kahf verses 60 onwards. This shows that even major Speaker Prophets often had encounters with men who were even more exalted them them, who understood the inner meaning of things better than they did.

Also, the position of Ali is truly such that it is hard to grasp. Recall that the time of the Prophet was unique in that all Five of the panjatan were revealed at the same time. His companion and brother, Ali was the one who revealed the inner, secret meaning of the Qu'ran, while the Prophet was the recipient of the Revelation itself. Not only that, Ali was the Foundation of the Imammat and occupies a position that is higher than that of any Imam in his progeny. There are many hadith from Ali himself that show the unique and singular position Ali occupies in Islam. I can quote some later in a separate post.

In any case, there is an inner logic to all this. It is not pulled out of thin air. It is up to you to accept or not.
Last edited by Biradar on Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Biradar
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#682

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:45 pm

SBM wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:45 am
Biradar
However, the Ismailis are not unique in this and Sufis (both Sunni and Shi'a) also interpret the Qu'ran and shariaa in similar symbolic manner
Br Biradar
If we accept Ismailis and Sufi's version of Interpretation of Quran and still consider them Muslims then why the Muslim world calls Ahmedis (Qadiyanis) as Kaafir because they have their own interpretation of Quran and Mehdi
I don't understand what you are trying to say. Also, why are you concerned about calling someone kaafir? It is not your or my job. To enter the circle of Islam is simple: one simply needs to recite the shahaada. Thats all.

Islam is a complex religion and the Qu'ran is a very complex and subtle book. If anyone tells you otherwise he/she is a fool. Consider the most widely read tafsir of the Qu'ran by ibn Kathir. It runs into 10 printed volumes with copious footnotes and references to hadith. Fully reading it in detail is a long and arduous job. So clearly, a book that needs that much explanations to just understand it's outward meanings can't be simple. Naturally, hence there is no such thing as an official interpretation of the Qu'ran. So calling someone kaafir just because they interpret the Qu'ran differently than someone else is foolish.

RedBox
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#683

Unread post by RedBox » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:16 pm

Quran is most simple book if you believe it to be word of GOD.

Quran is complex only for fools who wants to doubt on each word of it. Then obviously it needs complex and lengthy explainations.

So fools dont be fool and believe in Quran as word of GOD and your life will be much easier and beautiful.

ajamali
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#684

Unread post by ajamali » Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:26 am

RedBox wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:16 pm Quran is most simple book if you believe it to be word of GOD.

Quran is complex only for fools who wants to doubt on each word of it. Then obviously it needs complex and lengthy explainations.

So fools dont be fool and believe in Quran as word of GOD and your life will be much easier and beautiful.
So how many days did it take Allah to make this universe? What does it say in the Quran? I believe it says Kun fa ya kun in one place and 6 days in another.....

RedBox
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#685

Unread post by RedBox » Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:44 am

ajamali wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:26 am
RedBox wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:16 pm Quran is most simple book if you believe it to be word of GOD.

Quran is complex only for fools who wants to doubt on each word of it. Then obviously it needs complex and lengthy explainations.

So fools dont be fool and believe in Quran as word of GOD and your life will be much easier and beautiful.
So how many days did it take Allah to make this universe? What does it say in the Quran? I believe it says Kun fa ya kun in one place and 6 days in another.....
it does not affect to me if it took instant or 6 or 60 days to create the world.

I know world was created by ALLAH

RedBox
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#686

Unread post by RedBox » Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:51 am

btw time does not even exist, so now go and search for more things to create doubts in heads :lol:

ajamali
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#687

Unread post by ajamali » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:30 am

RedBox wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:51 am btw time does not even exist, so now go and search for more things to create doubts in heads :lol:
It’s not about raising doubts... you said the Quran was a simple book but apparently it is complex and full of contradictions that need to be explained. You yourself cannot resolve this one simple contradiction. Everyone knows that time did not even exist. So why would the Quran say it took six days? Simple, huh?

Biradar
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#688

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:44 am

ajamali wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:30 am

It’s not about raising doubts... you said the Quran was a simple book but apparently it is complex and full of contradictions that need to be explained. You yourself cannot resolve this one simple contradiction. Everyone knows that time did not even exist. So why would the Quran say it took six days? Simple, huh?
Why are you arguing with low-IQ mummy's boi? This coward is like a nasty virus that infects every conversation. In fact, this coward, as you know well, gets so ashamed of his pathetic behavior that he frequently changes his ID to hide his shame from his previous vomit on this board. Just put him on ignore list.

Anyway, in one question you have exposed the fools who think that the Word of Allah is "simple". Good job. His below room-temperature IQ has not even allowed him to understand the question. But best to put this virus mummy's boi on ignore and focus on positive things and learn and teach.

RedBox
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#689

Unread post by RedBox » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:56 am

ajamali wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:30 am
RedBox wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:51 am btw time does not even exist, so now go and search for more things to create doubts in heads :lol:
It’s not about raising doubts... you said the Quran was a simple book but apparently it is complex and full of contradictions that need to be explained. You yourself cannot resolve this one simple contradiction. Everyone knows that time did not even exist. So why would the Quran say it took six days? Simple, huh?
Yes Quran can be contradict to many people.

Quran also says that we give hidayat to many and we make gumrah to many. And I can easily see how gumrah guys acts on this very thread by name calling and idiotic posts trying to show they know much but in reality Allah has taken their bashirat and they are blind and Quran seems to very difficult and complex book them. Lol

This happens when their heart are black and their face are buring in hell fire. I have seen many such people in real life as well. They act like they know much but they are in the lowest level of hell and Allah has made them blind deaf and dumb and they cant make out any thing out of Quran or deen.

RedBox
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Re: Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

#690

Unread post by RedBox » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:06 am

I repeat my words. Quran is very simple book for believers but shyateen will find it very difficult and complex and at a time they wont even find it realistic.