Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
SBM
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#31

Unread post by SBM » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:02 pm

AbdeYamani wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:38 pm
SBM wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:05 am
Mine is True, my initials represent my full name :D
Syedna Burhanuddin Moula?

Why don't you reveal the name and residential address.. Let's see for how long you live after that.
Great number of people on this forum know my identity and what I do including members of Kothari Mafia and I am still alive and breathing :D :D

anajmi
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#32

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:21 pm

The link you posted talks about the infallibility of the ahlul bayt and Dai is not ahlul bayt.

AbdeYamani
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#33

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:34 pm

anajmi wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:21 pm The link you posted talks about the infallibility of the ahlul bayt and Dai is not ahlul bayt.
You were asking for proof of Infallibility of Ahl al Bayt(as) from Quran.

That is why I shared that link.

and here is the link for proof of Imamat in Quran

https://www.al-islam.org/man-and-univer ... amat-quran
Last edited by AbdeYamani on Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AbdeYamani
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#34

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:36 pm

SBM wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:02 pm
AbdeYamani wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:38 pm

Syedna Burhanuddin Moula?

Why don't you reveal the name and residential address.. Let's see for how long you live after that.
Great number of people on this forum know my identity and what I do including members of Kothari Mafia and I am still alive and breathing :D :D
Let's make it public then..

I am pretty sure a jununi Bohra will kill you for Sawab ae Azeem.

zinger
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#35

Unread post by zinger » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:00 pm

AbdeYamani wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:36 pm
SBM wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:02 pm
Great number of people on this forum know my identity and what I do including members of Kothari Mafia and I am still alive and breathing :D :D
Let's make it public then..

I am pretty sure a jununi Bohra will kill you for Sawab ae Azeem.
hey chump, words are cheap. why dont you walk the talk?

Let's start with you first. Why dont you reveal your identity first since you are so obsessed with it

SBM has nothing to fear by the way. i have not always seen eye to eye with him but he has the balls to be open about who he is and if nothing else, i have immense admiration and respect for that

BTW, his identity, and the fact that he visits here is open knowledge to Kothar. so he has nothing to hide.
But then again, he has nothing to prove to cowards like you either

SBM
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#36

Unread post by SBM » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:02 pm

I am pretty sure a jununi Bohra will kill you for Sawab ae Azeem.
Good Try. there are no more Jununi Bohras that Kothari Goons and they know who I am and where I live :D :)

AbdeYamani
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#37

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:07 pm

zinger wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:00 pm
AbdeYamani wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:36 pm

Let's make it public then..

I am pretty sure a jununi Bohra will kill you for Sawab ae Azeem.
hey chump, words are cheap. why dont you walk the talk?

Let's start with you first. Why dont you reveal your identity first since you are so obsessed with it

SBM has nothing to fear by the way. i have not always seen eye to eye with him but he has the balls to be open about who he is and if nothing else, i have immense admiration and respect for that

BTW, his identity, and the fact that he visits here is open knowledge to Kothar. so he has nothing to hide.
But then again, he has nothing to prove to cowards like you either
Calm down, first read the whole thread and then comment.

anajmi
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#38

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:08 pm

"You were asking for proof of Infallibility of Ahl al Bayt(as) from Quran."

I was asking for proof of Dai’s infallibility from the Quran. You provided a Shia quote of the prophet (ﷺ) and an ayah referring to the household of the prophet (ﷺ) in which Allah is talking to the wives of the prophet (ﷺ).

Want to try again? Maybe the third time might be a charm?

SBM
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#39

Unread post by SBM » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:17 pm

Thanks Zinger

AbdeYamani
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#40

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:30 pm

anajmi wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:08 am
Ambassador_Mumbai wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:53 pm



I would love for you to post the ayahs of the Quran that extensively prove the institution of Imamat.
https://www.al-islam.org/man-and-univer ... amat-quran

AbdeYamani
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#41

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:33 pm

anajmi wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:08 pm "You were asking for proof of Infallibility of Ahl al Bayt(as) from Quran."

I was asking for proof of Dai’s infallibility from the Quran. You provided a Shia quote of the prophet (ﷺ) and an ayah referring to the household of the prophet (ﷺ) in which Allah is talking to the wives of the prophet (ﷺ).

Want to try again? Maybe the third time might be a charm?
Why would I spend a second of my life proving something I do not believe in.

Try being humble and polite next time, nobody cares about how high you think of yourself.

anajmi
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#42

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:44 pm

Can I assume now that you have given up on proving the Dai's infallibility from the Quran?

As I mentioned in my previous post, that ayah has nothing to do with Imamat unless you do a lot of jugglery like the author of that article has done. In that ayah Allah is talking to the wives of the prophet (ﷺ) and his household. That is it!! The word Imamat isn't even mentioned. Besides, there hasn't been an Imam for hundreds of years. He is in hiding just like I am the richest person on earth, but my billions are currently in hiding!!

anajmi
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#43

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:45 pm

AbdeYamani wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:33 pm
anajmi wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:08 pm "You were asking for proof of Infallibility of Ahl al Bayt(as) from Quran."

I was asking for proof of Dai’s infallibility from the Quran. You provided a Shia quote of the prophet (ﷺ) and an ayah referring to the household of the prophet (ﷺ) in which Allah is talking to the wives of the prophet (ﷺ).

Want to try again? Maybe the third time might be a charm?
Why would I spend a second of my life proving something I do not believe in.

Try being humble and polite next time, nobody cares about how high you think of yourself.
hmm, didn't you post multiple responses already? I am assuming that took more than a second.

Biradar
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#44

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:56 pm

Ya Allah! I am gone for a few weeks and now I see anajmi has done zuhur! Mubarak, mubarak. Anyway, nice to see you!

Da'i is not only not infallible but on the other hand very much fallible. Just witness the antics of Muffy and his dad. Both loved luxury, caused serious chaos and hardship to people's life. In Islam there are actually very few infallible persons: the Prophet and his immediate family (that is those who appeared with him in his lifetime and immediately after). That is all. Everyone else is fallible. There is no need to look into yellowing pages of worm eaten books. Common sense and logic shows this is true just looking at the behavior of the characters involved.

BTW: I am not sure why this fetish to prove something from books. Why does it matter? Who cares what some obscure person in some Yemeni tribe or Indian village said say 1000 years ago? Unless there is clear and unambiguous evidence from the Qu'ran itself there is no need to worry about it.

anajmi
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#45

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm

Thanks bro Biradar,

There is actually clear unambiguous evidence from the Quran itself that no one other that the Prophet (ﷺ) of Allah is infallible and this evidence is in the ayah often quoted by the Bohra clergy to demonstrate their own authority and infallibility. Ayah 4:59. But read the full ayah and not half of it which the Bohra's use to manipulate the simple Bohra mind.

AbdeYamani
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#46

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:21 am

anajmi wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm Thanks bro Biradar,

There is actually clear unambiguous evidence from the Quran itself that no one other that the Prophet (ﷺ) of Allah is infallible and this evidence is in the ayah often quoted by the Bohra clergy to demonstrate their own authority and infallibility. Ayah 4:59. But read the full ayah and not half of it which the Bohra's use to manipulate the simple Bohra mind.
Superiority complex that you guys suffer with is very much similar to Bohra clergy Mafia that you guys hate so much.

SBM
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#47

Unread post by SBM » Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:25 am

AbdeYamani wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:21 am Superiority complex that you guys suffer with is very much similar to Bohra clergy Mafia that you guys hate so much.
Do check yourself in the mirror before accusing others of Superiority Complex

AbdeYamani
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#48

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:13 pm

SBM + HUMSAFAR + BIRADAR + ANAJMI = Self-Proclaimed Progressive Mafia on DBF.

Biradar
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#49

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:54 pm

Qur'an 4:59 is:
O believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. Should you disagree on anything, then refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you ˹truly˺ believe in Allah and the Last Day. This is the best and fairest resolution.
I believe anajmi is referring to the second clause of this verse, in which it is said that if one has disagreements to "refer to Allah and His Messenger" and not "those in authority among you". There are a few points I would like to make about this verse:
  • Who are "those in authority among you"? Actually, M. Ali already answered this by referring to the previous verse, in which Allah "commands you to return trust to their rightful owners and, if you judge between men, to do so with justice". Hence, only those leaders who are trustworthy and deal with people justly can be considered as proper authorities. Clearly, none of the current incumbents or claimants to the position of da'i are either. They have milked the community and created vast wealth for themselves and lived a life of luxury and decadence. As to justice, less said the better.
  • Now, the second half of the verse may indicate that ultimately there are only two real sources of infallible knowledge: Allah and the Prophet, i.e. in practice the Qu'ran and the Prophetic hadith. However, in the same surah there is another verse (Q 4:83) in which it says that "... if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them ...". Hence, in this place the two sources of knowledge are the Prophet and "those of authority". Now one can argue that this verse is specific to some incidences of military battles and rumors of defeat and victory spread improperly, but a general principal of Qu'ranic interpretation is to also consider the generic meaning of most verses and not just the specific circumstances in which it was revealed.
In any case, the bottom line is that the Bohra da'is can't claim any sort of infallibility. As has been documented in excruciating detail they have made many mistakes, have many weakness, lust after power and wealth and are, specially in the case of SMB, megalomaniacs who think they hold heaven and hell in their hands. In fact, there are about 4-5 Bohra da'is and claimants: Muffy, STF, Alavi da'i, Sulaimani da'i and also others like Mehdibagwalas etc. Clearly, they all disagree about nass and so at least in this fundamental respect they are not infallible!
They all can be wrong (and are) but they can't all be right. In this situation it is best to not pay any attention to them and instead look at the fundamental sources of knowledge, i.e. "Allah and His Messenger".

Even the basic Ismaili tenets set down in ancients books are not necessarily "true" (whatever "true" means). In fact, the writings of the post Imam Jafar as-Sadiq era are highly superstitious and full of insane fairy-tale things. To based one's Islamic understanding on these is hazardous, to say the least. Again and again as I say: there is no need for obscurantist mullahs and their strange and fanciful interpretations. Yes, no harm in studying our heritage and reflecting on it, but just because it is "our heritage" (i.e. we were born into the community) does not make it right, or even Islamic.

Biradar
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#50

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:00 pm

AbdeYamani wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:13 pm SBM + HUMSAFAR + BIRADAR + ANAJMI = Self-Proclaimed Progressive Mafia on DBF.
Thanks for the implicit acknowledgment that your brand of fanaticism, derived from fanatical mullahs who were kicked out from the Jamia and/or the mad Kotharis (it is hard to know you exact affiliation), is not welcome amongst us. You clearly don't like the Bohra clergy either, but you want to instead become the authority and have everyone bow down to you. Recall that the general principle is we reject all clergy, including the type you represent. Islam has no formalized ordained clergy. There is no need to have any special permission to pray, fast, give zakaat etc. That is the main beauty and simplicity of Islam not present, for example, in Catholicism. You would have us have a central authority, preferably with you or those you like to be in charge. We say "no, thank you, we have a brain and are commanded by Allah to use it." You call us "Mafia" for that. Thank you for the compliment and the acknowledgment of defeat.

And anyway, what is your position on infallibility of the da'i, the topic of this post? Or is it that you just wish to throw a tantrum in every thread now that you realized no one really cares about what you have to say?

anajmi
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#51

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:13 pm

Now, the second half of the verse may indicate that ultimately there are only two real sources of infallible knowledge: Allah and the Prophet, i.e. in practice the Qu'ran and the Prophetic hadith. However, in the same surah there is another verse (Q 4:83) in which it says that "... if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them ...". Hence, in this place the two sources of knowledge are the Prophet and "those of authority". Now one can argue that this verse is specific to some incidences of military battles and rumors of defeat and victory spread improperly, but a general principal of Qu'ranic interpretation is to also consider the generic meaning of most verses and not just the specific circumstances in which it was revealed.
Yes but the same command as 4:59 would apply here too. If after referring it back to those in authority, you disagree with them, then refer back to Allah and his prophet(ﷺ).

4:83 is just a subset of 4:59 and does not override it. 4:59 says if you disagree on ANYTHING, refer back to Allah and his messenger (ﷺ). Which implies it is possible to disagree with those in authority about anything including whatever 4:83 is referring to.

Another interesting aspect of the translation is also to be understood. The translation of 4:83 says refer it to the prophet(ﷺ) OR those in authority. 4:59 is translated as Allah AND his messenger(ﷺ). If you can refer it to the prophet(ﷺ) you do not need those in authority cause you might disagree with them.

anajmi
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#52

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:17 pm

And yes you may claim that the translation can say AND, but then that would not be accurate. It has already been established that it is possible to disagree with those in authority.

anajmi
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#53

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:26 pm

Mohd Asad does translate 4:83 with an AND. The harf used is waw harf ataf. So I think AND is more accurate.

AbdeYamani
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#54

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:47 pm

Biradar wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:00 pm
AbdeYamani wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:13 pm SBM + HUMSAFAR + BIRADAR + ANAJMI = Self-Proclaimed Progressive Mafia on DBF.
Thanks for the implicit acknowledgment that your brand of fanaticism, derived from fanatical mullahs who were kicked out from the Jamia and/or the mad Kotharis (it is hard to know you exact affiliation), is not welcome amongst us. You clearly don't like the Bohra clergy either, but you want to instead become the authority and have everyone bow down to you. Recall that the general principle is we reject all clergy, including the type you represent. Islam has no formalized ordained clergy. There is no need to have any special permission to pray, fast, give zakaat etc. That is the main beauty and simplicity of Islam not present, for example, in Catholicism. You would have us have a central authority, preferably with you or those you like to be in charge. We say "no, thank you, we have a brain and are commanded by Allah to use it." You call us "Mafia" for that. Thank you for the compliment and the acknowledgment of defeat.

And anyway, what is your position on infallibility of the da'i, the topic of this post? Or is it that you just wish to throw a tantrum in every thread now that you realized no one really cares about what you have to say?
Thanks for the implicit acknowledgment that your brand of fanaticism, derived from fanatical mullahs who were kicked out from the Jamia and/or the mad Kotharis (it is hard to know you exact affiliation), is not welcome amongst us.

Well, concept of Imamat in the progeny of Rasulullah(SWA) is the foundation in Nizam e Ilahi, if believing in that or having good opinion about those who believed in it is fanaticism, then I take your slander as a compliment,
and I am more than happy to be not welcomed amongst those whose creed is similar to those of Saudi-Salafi-Nasibis.


You clearly don't like the Bohra clergy either,

Recently I came across the reality of deen and its system as per true teachings of Ahl al bayt(Who are true inheritors and guardians of deen) and how things took an ugly turn after 47th and the extent to which Sayedna and his family are exploiting people by propagating false deen and filling up their cofferes. I think that that current leadership is like Banu Abbas following politics of Banu Umaiyya misguiding people like rabbi of Bani Israel. After knowing all this it is impossible for me to like or approve the Syedna System.


But you want to instead become the authority and have everyone bow down to you.

No I do not want that, I do not have the knowledge and skills required to pull-off something like this even if I would want to, which I do not.
What I truly want is to expose the corrupt practices and distortion of religion done by Syedna.Inc
but this can't be the end in itself rather it should be a means to something more.
Today, when I see that most of the people who left main-stream for whatever reasons have even gone far away from basic tenets of our creed.
I believe that every profession has evil people but that does not make that profession evil in itself, just because Syedna.Inc and most of its office bearers are corrupt does not mean that everyone is like that and that the community does not in need of guidance from pious and Allah-Conscious people. As per Qawl of Moula Ali(as) Faqih Kullu Faqih, and if communities would not take care of fuqohas that it produces than those who are evil will capture the mimbar and would lead them astray.

I believe that instead of progressive the community need Islah movement, which cannot be achieved without aid of pious well versed scholars who are taken care of and not abused like you guys prefer to do all the time.

Reason I use this platform for sharing and discussing what I know is not for 5 musketeers but I know that posts on this forum makes its way to other social media platforms. But, I truly wonder as to why the admins do not intervene when posts which are completely opposite of mission statement on this forum.

I do not want you to bow down before anyone, infact I want nothing from you or anyone like you. My posts and quesitons are for those who still believe in concept of Walayat of an Infallible Imam(as) from the progeny of Rasulullah(SWA)


Recall that the general principle is we reject all clergy, including the type you represent. Islam has no formalized ordained clergy. There is no need to have any special permission to pray, fast, give zakaat etc. That is the main beauty and simplicity of Islam not present, for example, in Catholicism.

I do not know why you are asking me to recall this and from where... this makes no sense to me at all.
I believe in system of Walayat of an Infallible Imam(as) and his dawat administered by his hudud in his presence or absence. Challenge is to address the question of what to do in absence of Imam(as) when the chain of hudud is also broken. Can we adopt a system like wilayat e faqih like ithna Asharis... not sure about that.. but I hope to have it someday.


You would have us have a central authority, preferably with you or those you like to be in charge. We say "no, thank you, we have a brain and are commanded by Allah to use it.

Honestly I would have you and others like you to not take every topic of discussion off-track by your personal remarks and display of supremacy by ridiculing and bullying people who might have an idea different from yours.


" You call us "Mafia" for that.

No, I call you and the three other musketeers Mafia for shutting down others, ridiculing them, making slanderous remarks, and bullying them to the point that people stop contributing on this Forum. Just like Bohra Clergy that you all hate so much. In the case of Rashida Ben Saheba or whoever that person is, instead of discussing the expose that person did, you guys started making fun of her language.

Thank you for the compliment and the acknowledgment of defeat.

I am not a teenager looking for a fight to gloat over wins and cry over defeats.. So don't know what defeat you are talking about.

And anyway, what is your position on infallibility of the da'i, the topic of this post?

Dude, go read my posts, you will know I am strong critic of this false claim and trying my best to expose this lie.


Or is it that you just wish to throw a tantrum in every thread now that you realized no one really cares about what you have to say?

Again, not worthy of any reply. But at personal level I do respect you for the knowledge you posses and your command over the language.

Infact you and Kseeker are the only two people on this Forum whose posts are atleast worth a read.

SBM
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#55

Unread post by SBM » Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:25 pm

making slanderous remarks, and bullying them to the point that people stop contributing on this Forum.
Please enlighten who are those people who stop contributing because of bullying

Biradar
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#56

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:31 pm

My friend AbdeYamani. Thanks for clarifying your position. I understand you better now. The point you raised of an imam in the progeny of the Prophet is an interesting one. In theory. However, I hope you agree there is no manifest imam at present. Also, there is no need that just because you were born in the Bohra maslaq the imams in the line of Imam Ismail are the correct ones. I am not saying they are not correct, I am just saying that because we are born into some particular system it does not mean our particular system is correct. I mean an accident of birth can't determine truth!

But again, the concept of Imam does not mean we need an ordained clergy. Your statement "Can we adopt a system like wilayat e faqih like ithna Asharis... not sure about that.. but I hope to have it someday" betrays you, though. Sorry, but this means you just want to set up another system where fanatic mullahs would control our lives. This is something we reject. No mullah, however learned he thinks he is, can control our lives. That is just the plain and simple facts. Also, don't throw out "Saudi this" and "Saudi that". First, they are not much worse or better than the mullahs and "scholars" you think should run our lives. All fanaticism we reject, including the Saudi sort.

Incidentally, I understand something about Iranian history and politics. The reality is that "wilayat e faqih" is hated in Iran and unlikely to survive the death of the Ali Khamenei. It was put forward by Khomeini and has no basis in any Islamic tradition at all. Why would you want that? Makes no sense. Iran was a vibrant and modern country and they were already on the way towards a constitutional monarchy (like in UK where the monarch is just a figure head but power wielded by an elected parliament) when Khomeini took them back to the stone age.

As I said before: mullahs are needed to provide guidance in understanding some aspect of religion and leading prayers etc. However, they should be in the subordinate and submissive role. When the prayers are over, they should sit in the corner and let elected members of the jamaat run the administrative affairs. In case of disagreements they should have no power to bully (in the real sense) members. If they do, then they should be removed and their power to lead congregational prayers etc taken away. This way the mullahs will be prevented ever from recreating a tyrannical system the Kotharis have created.

As to bullying. Don't you think mullahs are the biggest bullies? Or you think a poor couple of guys exercising their right to express their opinions are the bullies? What sort of insane inversion of power is this? You simple want the luxury of not having your views challenged. Yes, it is a type of tantrum when you plead the Admin should censor us. If you want to be unchallenged, please make a website and forum where you can talk to yourself and Rashida "bensaheb" all day and night also. Anyway, who is she? When did I say anything to her on this thread? Don't get befuddled and confused.
Last edited by Biradar on Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Biradar
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Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#57

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:39 pm

anajmi wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:17 pm And yes you may claim that the translation can say AND, but then that would not be accurate. It has already been established that it is possible to disagree with those in authority.
"And" is the translation which is most likely. Yes, I understand logically AND and OR are different! I mean, I don't want the AND gates in my chip to suddenly switch to OR gates and cause chaos :)

But I think where I agree with you that there is no members of the set "those in authority" at present who can decide such questions for us. No manifest imam is present and no claimant to da'i is anything but a power-hungry tyrant. No Bohra mullah can claim to be in this either. Hence, sadly, we are on our own. But not to despair! Islam in these situation does provide a simple, ethical and truly free path that one can follow. Never mind what the hair-splitting obscurantist mullahs say!

kseeker
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#58

Unread post by kseeker » Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:18 pm

Rashida Behnsaheba wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:07 pm Afsus Aa Waat Par Thaey Chey Ke DB Progressive Website Par Ismaili Tayyabi Aqaid par Tanqid ane Bahass Karnar Ahwa Lugu Chey Je Dawat Ni Kitaboo Tu Door Ni Waat basic Aqaid ni details pan nathi janta.

Progressive movement Ibtida ma Dawat Na Ulama si guidance leta. Burhanpur Dargah Case ane Chanda Bhai Galla Case Ne Agar Aaje Koee Parhse tu Dawoodi Bohra History and Aqaid si Ahne Ghani malumaat milse. Kem ke sagla Ulama case ma shamil hata ane arguments religious points par thatee.

Aaj halat kharaab che. roshan khiyaal ni jamaat na bara ma miansaheb Abdeali Madaarwala ye bayaan ma kaho hatu ke ye logu Aqida par amal karnaar chey magar Udaipur no haal barbaad chey. Lucknow si shia na molvi ne bolawi muharram kare chey. Kala kapra Bani Abbas Na libaas pahne chey. Miabhai jewo haal che. Jamea si 2 ustaad Udaipur jaee was magar su thayu ? Bechara bani ne rahya. karan ke lugo ye Aa misal treatment kido ke tamaro kaam mayyat ni namaz, misaq, nikah and masjid ma namaz ane bayaan cheh. baqi hamne jemarzi ma awse karisoo.

Eyj misal yaha zabardasti ni waat karnaar lugu ni bhar maar chey. Jamea and Badri Mahal na 2 - 3 lugu pan active che. Tahir Fakhruddin Na agent bhi ahnu baju bajaway chey. Wahabi balao pan Zahar ghule Che ane suna par suhaga alif be ni khabar nathi ane comments karnaar har topic ma bakwaas kare chey. Movement ni Maut nu Aa saglu ahtimaam che. Jo agar rules huta ke faqat ilm ane daleel si waat thase tu Aaje Asar nazar Aaotu. Pan educated bhi message board par visit karwo pasand nathi karta. Aa website chalaonaar sagla ghoor karjo. Tamara waqt, ane raqam zaya kem thaee che.

Dawat ni Kutub na makhtutaat Duniya ni Ghani Universities ane liberaries ma alag alag saal ma likha huwa mujud chey. Cairo and Labanon si pan published thae chuka chy. Ahma add karwo possible nathi.
Could you tell me where I could access the case details and notes of the Chanda bai galla case and Burhanpur Dargah case?

Biradar
Posts: 955
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#59

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:07 am

Reading some of the responses from AbdeYamani and Rashida so-called Behnsaheba one concludes that the choices between Kothari Mafia and Ustadi Borhas (a new term I am coining to describe chelas of Four Ustads thrown out of the Jamia) are that either accept tyranny from (a) Da'i and his family and Kothar OR (b) Ustadi Bohras. Both want power to lead the community and both feel they are have the right to dictate other people's thoughts and actions. Unfortunately for both these groups neither option is acceptable as both want to create a tyranny, just with their own preferred guru-devs.

The reality is that the Bohras are under a demographic decline. It is unlikely they will survive in strength for much longer. Birth rates are low (as is the case generally across the world) and most young people born into the Bohra community, specially the West, dislike the mullahs. Alavi da'i is already crying "uncle" and asking people to have more kids to keep their community from going extinct. Muffy Bohras went from a million a decade ago to about 700,000 according to recent E-jamaat numbers given by Muffy himself. FD has at most a few hundred followers, though maybe a few thousand sympathize with their cause. However, it is again a family business which is run by four brothers and their sisters. Same old model created over the last 150 years or so, to keep power and wealth in the hands of a few.

Let us look at Ustadi Bohras: where can we find them? In tiny little groups in places like Malegaon, with little broader appeal anywhere else, including in Udaipur. So again, a tiny group with no broad appeal and no chance of winning over anyone to their cause.

So clearly, the situation for each of the groups (Muffy Bohras, FD Bohras, Ustadi Bohras) look bleak. Each is a different manifestation of the simple desire to control other people's lives that is a hallmark of all totalitarian systems. Sadly, Bohraism which should be considered a different religion, essentially a type of hybrid Hindu-Manichean-Zorastrian cult, with little connection to Islam, has this unfortunate centralizing tendency in it. On the other hands there are thousands of Sufi orders all living (mostly) harmoniously and with mutual respect for each other. They have a certain simplicity in their appeal which allows them to attract millions towards them, both Muslim and non-Muslim. Hence, to succeed and attract members, the XXX Bohra group would have to relax, setup a secular system of running administrative affairs, and keep the mullahs in a submissive role. Clearly, this is not acceptable to any of the groups! So I guess we are at a stale-mate with each heading towards a demographic demise.

As to the topic of this thread: I think everyone (of all persuasions) agrees that da'i is not infallible. So I guess at least in this topic there is consensus! But the movement started by Ustadi Bohras after the death of S. Mohammad Badruddin is basically over and throughly and totally defeated by the Kothari Mafia. They are clutching at straws at this point. Sadly, it is possible that there is no way to stop this attrition of Bohraism and we may be in a terminal decline stage which no amount of arguments can fix.

AbdeYamani
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:08 am

Re: Ismah- Is Dai al Mutlaq in Daur As Satr Infallible?

#60

Unread post by AbdeYamani » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:53 pm

Biradar wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:07 am Reading some of the responses from AbdeYamani and Rashida so-called Behnsaheba one concludes that the choices between Kothari Mafia and Ustadi Borhas (a new term I am coining to describe chelas of Four Ustads thrown out of the Jamia) are that either accept tyranny from (a) Da'i and his family and Kothar OR (b) Ustadi Bohras. Both want power to lead the community and both feel they are have the right to dictate other people's thoughts and actions. Unfortunately for both these groups neither option is acceptable as both want to create a tyranny, just with their own preferred guru-devs.


The reality is that the Bohras are under a demographic decline. It is unlikely they will survive in strength for much longer. Birth rates are low (as is the case generally across the world) and most young people born into the Bohra community, specially the West, dislike the mullahs. Alavi da'i is already crying "uncle" and asking people to have more kids to keep their community from going extinct. Muffy Bohras went from a million a decade ago to about 700,000 according to recent E-jamaat numbers given by Muffy himself. FD has at most a few hundred followers, though maybe a few thousand sympathize with their cause. However, it is again a family business which is run by four brothers and their sisters. Same old model created over the last 150 years or so, to keep power and wealth in the hands of a few.

Let us look at Ustadi Bohras: where can we find them? In tiny little groups in places like Malegaon, with little broader appeal anywhere else, including in Udaipur. So again, a tiny group with no broad appeal and no chance of winning over anyone to their cause.

So clearly, the situation for each of the groups (Muffy Bohras, FD Bohras, Ustadi Bohras) look bleak. Each is a different manifestation of the simple desire to control other people's lives that is a hallmark of all totalitarian systems. Sadly, Bohraism which should be considered a different religion, essentially a type of hybrid Hindu-Manichean-Zorastrian cult, with little connection to Islam, has this unfortunate centralizing tendency in it. On the other hands there are thousands of Sufi orders all living (mostly) harmoniously and with mutual respect for each other. They have a certain simplicity in their appeal which allows them to attract millions towards them, both Muslim and non-Muslim. Hence, to succeed and attract members, the XXX Bohra group would have to relax, setup a secular system of running administrative affairs, and keep the mullahs in a submissive role. Clearly, this is not acceptable to any of the groups! So I guess we are at a stale-mate with each heading towards a demographic demise.

As to the topic of this thread: I think everyone (of all persuasions) agrees that da'i is not infallible. So I guess at least in this topic there is consensus! But the movement started by Ustadi Bohras after the death of S. Mohammad Badruddin is basically over and throughly and totally defeated by the Kothari Mafia. They are clutching at straws at this point. Sadly, it is possible that there is no way to stop this attrition of Bohraism and we may be in a terminal decline stage which no amount of arguments can fix.
You forgot to mention Biradari Bohra... who never listen to any nasihat, infact they totally reject lun of haqiqat na gul.. anyways Sheikh Sahib which silsila would you recommend? The one through Abu Bakr(LA) or the one through Hasan al Basari(LA).. both were enemies of ahl al bayt btw.