One step that will change your life and bring more understanding about Islam

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: One step that will change your life and bring more understanding about Islam

#31

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:10 pm

{It is reported that Ali and his slave Qanbar brought the completed text (which apparently was very voluminous) but the people rejected it. Ali then exclaimed that "By God! You will never see it again. My duty was only to inform you when I had collected it".}

I believe this entire incident to be a fabrication.

Consider what Allah says about those who hide the word of Allah. Although this is in reference to the Jews and Christians who revealed the message so as to gain maximum profit, kind of what the Bihar Dai does today.

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ (2:79

Woe, then, unto those who write down, with their own hands, [something which they claim to be] divine writ, and then say. 'This is from God,' in order to acquire a trifling gain thereby; woe, then, unto them for what their hands have written, and woe unto them for all that they may have gained!

There are other ayahs saying the same thing.

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: One step that will change your life and bring more understanding about Islam

#32

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:48 pm

It is hard to tell what is a fabrication and what is authentic after so many centuries have passed. However, this specific case (Ali having his own recension of the Quran) is very likely true. Many Companions of the Prophet had variant readings of the Quran in the early years, and Ali being extremely close to the Prophet (I mean, he grew up in the Prophetic Household and married the Prophet’s daughter!) must have also had his own private notes and understanding of the Quran. (These multiple versions and the fact that many early Quran reciters died or were killed in battle, specially in the Battle of Aqraba/Yamama, caused the early Muslim community to make a canonical recession of the Quran in the first place).

In fact, in many hadiths from the Imam’s it is mentioned that Ali’s recession had notes both in the horizontal and vertical margins. (This is a common thing in old manuscripts where one finds marginal notes in the side of the page, sometimes even in a different language). Further, the Prophet has said two things are joined together for eternity, the Quran and his Household. Obviously the latter includes Ali as its foremost representative. In fact, in Shia tradition Ali is the one who reveals the tawil of the Quran while the Prophet is the one who brought the tanzil.

Also, curiously, there is recorded in the canonical Sunni hadith books about an incident that occurred: Ali offered Uthman the text of the Prophet’s guidelines to tax collectors. Uthman, however, rejected it saying he did not needed it and so Ali took the documents he had prepared back with him. This could be the origin (modified obviously) to the tradition of Ali having offered to Uthman the whole text of his version of the Quran itself.

In any case, all these are just discussion points. The Quran as we have it is accepted by everyone, though obviously there are divergent interpretations specially of certain verses. We should focus on the commonalities and not create more fitna and chaos by focusing on the differences. Bigger picture is to counter the doctrine in which some religious leaders want to create vast wealth for themselves by taking the name of the great Islamic personalities. We all know such people from our own community. Clearly they are astray completely! These theological arguments are completely moot in that context. I mean, if a community leader invites the Butcher of Muslims, i.e. Modi, to his bhashan sabah during the days of Muharram and gives him crores of rupees then we have a bigger problems at our hands than (however enjoyable) historical discussions!

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: One step that will change your life and bring more understanding about Islam

#33

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:33 pm

The fact that the Quran was revealed upon the Prophet (ﷺ) is mentioned in the Quran. The Quran wasn't revealed BY the prophet (ﷺ). It was revealed TO him. But the taawil wasn't revealed to Ali. It was revealed BY Ali!! What does that mean? Ali is the better than Allah?

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: One step that will change your life and bring more understanding about Islam

#34

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:58 pm

anajmi wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:33 pm The fact that the Quran was revealed upon the Prophet (ﷺ) is mentioned in the Quran. The Quran wasn't revealed BY the prophet (ﷺ). It was revealed TO him. But the taawil wasn't revealed to Ali. It was revealed BY Ali!! What does that mean? Ali is the better than Allah?
A nice syllogism, but false. When one says “Ali revealed (or brought) the tawil of the Quran” it does not mean that he invented it from scratch by himself! The Prophet was also a master of tawil and it was he who taught it to Ali based on the revelation he received. Amongst the Bohras (unlike some branches of Ismailis) the position of Ali is subservient to that of the Prophet. I have never heard any Bohra aalim say otherwise. However, I think there are some Ali based cults who do think that Ali was superior to the Prophet. I do not believe that this is the Bohra position.

(Incidentally, I think some of the stories and myths that surround the person of Ali in these Ali-cults are certainly far-fetched. Weirdly some of these stories have made it to the “popular culture” of the Bohras, though I have never seen them in serious literature, even in haqaiq literature. I consider the haqaiq literature to be mostly invalid ravings of over-imaginative and superstitious minds. I do not believe it is of much value. Perhaps it entered the Ismaili mainstream due to the contact with remote tribes in Yemen or other places that brought their own superstitions and mixed it with Islam to make them sound less crazy than they really were.)

bohra_manus
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: One step that will change your life and bring more understanding about Islam

#35

Unread post by bohra_manus » Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:58 pm

Thank you Br SBM for the response.
Jazkallah!

bohra_manus
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: One step that will change your life and bring more understanding about Islam

#36

Unread post by bohra_manus » Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:01 pm

Biradar wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:36 pm Wow!
Thank you Br Biradar for the detailed explanation.
Jazkallah!

bohra_manus
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: One step that will change your life and bring more understanding about Islam

#37

Unread post by bohra_manus » Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:06 pm

Thanks Br Anjami for your explanation.
Jazkallah!

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: One step that will change your life and bring more understanding about Islam

#38

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:00 pm

Bro Biradar,

Thanks for clarifying your stance. Everything Ali knew about the Quran, he was taught by the prophet (ﷺ). I am 100% in agreement with that. However, whatever was taught to Ali was by no means special or only for Ali. It was being taught to every other Sahaba who cared to learn from the Prophet (ﷺ). If they didn't, then that was their own fault. There is no knowledge that was especially for Ali. If that were the case, what would be the purpose behind it? Remember Allah has warned those who hide his knowledge for any gain (Allah refers to this gain as trifling 'Thamanan Qaleelan', doesn't matter how much it is) about a severe punishment.

As mentioned in Surah Baqara (2:185) and many other places, the Quran has been revealed as a guidance for all mankind. Not just for the Shia's or Sunnis or Bohras or Ali (ra).

bohra_manus,

you are very welcome.

TalibBhai
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:16 am

Re: One step that will change your life and bring more understanding about Islam

#39

Unread post by TalibBhai » Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:19 am

I am very happy that this topic has pick the pace and people are wanting to read Quran in real terms with Translations.

Shukran

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: One step that will change your life and bring more understanding about Islam

#40

Unread post by SBM » Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:50 pm

Glad Anajmi and Biradar are still on the forum. Wish Porus and Muslim could still be around to add more to this conversation