Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

[ghulam muhammed]

we are exhorted that "aa to Hussian nu maatam che, kari lo, apna Dai ghana khush thai che" and i see nothing wrong in it.

What about the true lessons which have to be learnt from the karbala episode ? It is proved beyond doubt that the true message from Imam Hussain (a.s.) was 'sacrifice', 'total submission to the will of Allah (swt)' and 'Islam zinda rahe'. Why does the dai not lay emphasis on the most important part and say 'Aa Mohurrum na muqaddas din chhe.............'Islam ne zinda rakho, ena beshumar tukda na karo', 'Deen-e-Islam par mari mito' and instead just plays the psychological game of emotional blackmail ? Is matam more beneficial or educating the masses on the true message of karbala more beneficial ?................................ He does not and WILL NEVER ever lay emphasis on the core message because he needs to practice first before preaching which he is not ready to do.

[like_minded]

This is an addiction and Kotharis are purposely poisoning abdes and amtes for their ulterior vested interests. It is high time that people understand this and stop for a while and think ..... think where all this is going??!! What they do not understand is that there are no free lunches .......... what you are trying to 'buy' from Dai & Co is actually not available with them, it is not a saleable commoditiy and yet you all are paying a hefty price for this.

The ultimate prize (which people are trying to get) seems to be Janat, and the price tag for this is simple Taqwa and good deeds. Janat is the thing not guaranteed by even greatest of Prophets, so how can a mere self-proclaimed dai can guarantee this??

Bro JC

Basically behind all this madness by the abdes, there are two things deep-rooted and that is fear and greed! The only way for each and every follower of this so-called dawat is to understand... understand... become aware of their fear and greed, stop worrying about something which does not exist... These negative feelings only exist in them, In reality it is not there, So, get in touch with reality.

They are worried about Life after Death.... Why not focus on Life before Death?

[JC]

Very tru bro Like Minded

What religion in essence tries to sell is fear, fear of Unknown - may the intention is good, to streamline and bring semblence in the society, this fear is a stick by which you can make them stay in line. But the flip side is that cunning people like so-called royals have changed this fear into greed ......... I mean, with fear there was a reward attached if you abide by the conditions, now this reward has been turned into greed, Yeah Dil Mangay More....!!

I fully agree that nobody cares for this life as much rather people worry much about lifeafter (which may or may not exist).

My two cents - if this life is made worth living can this be not the Janat God has promised, and if we fight and loot others for our own vested interests, will this life not become living hell as God has cautioned??

[like_minded]

we are exhorted that "aa to Hussian nu maatam che, kari lo, apna Dai ghana khush thai che" and i see nothing wrong in it.

What about the true lessons which have to be learnt from the karbala episode ? It is proved beyond doubt that the true message from Imam Hussain (a.s.) was 'sacrifice', 'total submission to the will of Allah (swt)' and 'Islam zinda rahe'. Why does the dai not lay emphasis on the most important part and say 'Aa Mohurrum na muqaddas din chhe.............'Islam ne zinda rakho, ena beshumar tukda na karo', 'Deen-e-Islam par mari mito' and instead just plays the psychological game of emotional blackmail ? Is matam more beneficial or educating the masses on the true message of karbala more beneficial ?................................ He does not and WILL NEVER ever lay emphasis on the core message because he needs to practice first before preaching which he is not ready to do.

GM bhai

A very good post!!

I believe that these Self-appointed priests (dai/pope/pandits etc) are the biggest criminals on this planet. They are the ones who purposely misguide the masses for their personal gain.

Put the fear of God in them.... control their minds to the extent that they never ponder on the gift that every individual has (the ability of understanding, awareness)

Make the followers greedy by promising them something which is abstract, something which does not exist, except that it exists in the minds of the followers....

[humanbeing]

Hi MN

You are agreeing with members POV on Matam becoming an act of imitation, lacking emotions. and yet you are saying you don’t agree !! which POV you specifically not agreeing with.

You are using words like “Frenzy” , “Carried Away” and still say that Matam during majlis is out of emotions motivated by orator ?

You are mentioning you don’t believe and ignore parts of the Bayaan, which links Imam Hussain to Dai , then how does that make you POV different than mine or other’s on this forum.

You or me is least bothered what is going on in next person’s mind, correct ? But what matters is, what we are told to do when we sit in majlis, because that concerns our conscience ! Do you start doing maatam moment you are exhorted or cajoled to do, whether you genuinely feel the grief or not ?

[humanbeing]

AZ, my definition of Mass Hysteria is based in the context of people getting whipped (pun unintended) into a frenzy and others getting carried away with it.

Which part I m not understanding well !! aren’t you admitting here, people getting carried away !! carried away with what !! seeing other do genuine grief into frenzy ?? and follow because there is “mass hysteria” created by orator. Listen to the words which orator uses to create mass hysteria !!

Words are : “Mumino Maula ne khush karwa mate matam kari lo, zor se, aur zor se, etlo zor se matam karo maula tak maatam pohche” “ Arre mumino tame maula ne khush karwa chaaho cho ne ?? .. “ Have aaakhri maaatam che ! mumino, apne sagla zorr c maatam kare, aa maatam maula ni lambu umar maate karisu, sagla mumeen khaamoshi naa saaathe ek leh maa zorr c maatam kare !”

Mustafa bhai ! I cant create the same environment in words here, but you visit the waaz and majlises. There is maataam now and then, in context and out of context. I don’t have to put my words in your mouth. You mentioned that people get ‘carried away’ due to frenzy and mass hysteria.

I m not talking about your personal behaviour during such mass hysteria. We are talking about general people. And I don’t have any intention to manipulate your words. I took that word, ‘carried away’ and expressed my opinion. If I m wrong or misunderstood you. I m sorry about that.

How do you claim this

Sorry, but this where i disagree with you. Maatam might be emotionless, regimented, coaxed, ritualistic and orchestrated for you, but not for us.

You are referring “US” then we are talking about those mataameen who thinks that doing maatam is an act of impressing Allah to grant long life to Maula. To this I said :

A person cannot get carried away within minutes in extreme grief of gam-e-hussain and start pounding chest. And moment “Wada-e-funa” is recited, it takes seconds for sad & grieving mumins to form thaal or look for friends and relatives as if lost in a carnival aka mela. The mass hysteria is superstition created by the orchestra master sitting on the takht.

During Muharram matam is not a small part, infact waaz or bayan is small part done between maatams.

Dear MN, I was not discussing your personal choice of expressing your grief, you are surely a genuine person and would express true grief for Imam Hussain and Shaheeds. If you are defending genuine maatam karnaar out of pure grief those would be very less ppl in the masses attending the majlis. Then I retract my words and I sincerely apologize. But unfortunately I see more of phoney and imitating “carried away” people doing maatam to be part of the mass hysteria or frenzy as you say in positive context. Either this people are wrong or the orator.

[humanbeing]

Hi MN
Lets not debate on me twisting your words or whatever. I apologize if you thought so !

Again, and i will admit, we abde's are a little selfish that way, that we do Maatam to ask Allah to grant long life to our Dai, but that is only for about 5 minutes, towards the end, on the 10th day. The rest of the maatam is entirely for Imam Hussain

I have empteen times said, Maatan is an act of grief and pain to acknowledge Gam-e-hussain and shaheeds. Arent we distorting it as a prayer to please Allah to grant our wishes (primary being long live Sayedna Saheb) ?
Ok I have a genuine question here :
As I have observed : Why does orator tells mumin to do Maatam silently in last 5 minutes to be dedicated to Sayedna’s long life ?

Again, i would partly agree and partly disagree. Yes, i agree that it would be nice if we learnt more about the events which led to Ashura. And there will always be a few people who run to catch a place in the thaal, but there are also hundreds of other people, khidmat-guzaars who work their butts off. So it is eventually dependant on the intention of the people

I too wish if I could learn more about the events related to karbala ! we sit for 3 hours approx for 9 days and 5 – 6 hours on Ashura; to remember, listen, acknowledge, feel and express Gam-e-hussain. I agree the story is not gonna change just because someone wants to here new stuff every year. But the content is so less, information is so limited and story so vaguely told, I used to be an eager audience at Muharram waaz, listening with attention, but year after year its getting so much into self glorification.

Khidmatguzars are gem of people ! I don’t think so they can be compared with what we are discussing.

I guess eventually, you see what the mind wants you to see. If you see more and more people who "seem to be phoney's and imitating getting carried away", then i would attribute it to the fact that you are moving away from the Orthrodox Bohra sect and heading more into reformist territory, so your mind is translating what you see, in light of what your new mindset is becoming

I m expressing what my instincts says is not right ! I m not condemning true maatam or objecting to pray to allah for sayedna’s healthy life. My mindset, dilemma is story of many young bohras in the community. I m not saying this out of my whim and fancy, But its out of discussions we have away from this forum, much before I got to know progressives exist or even this site.

[Al Zulfiqar]

We as abde's have a different viewpoint of Maatam

CORRECT! the abde viewpoint promoted by their syedna and his nefarious family and hired goons -amils - is that: 1. hussein actually accepted shahadat so that the syedna could enjoy a long life and fill his coffers with billions of rupees.
2. abdes could experience new cultures, countries, cuisines and shopping in exotic locations every year wherever syedna chooses to hold his annual muharram picnic. according to the abde viewpoint it is much more rewarding spiritually when maatam is done for hussein in a different country everytime.
3. according to the abde viewpoint, muharram and maatam is when the maximum number of miracles occur at the hands of syedna.
4. according to the abde viewpoint, hussain gave up his head so that abde dawoodis could do maatam for him but by some miraculous twist, the 'benefit' of that extreme mourning will result in their dai's longevity ta qayamat. the logical conclusion therefore being that the more maatam and shedding of tears that slaves of syedna do for hussain, the longer the syedna lives and the more his family earns and becomes prosperous. therefore: murder of hussain=life for syedna, murder of hussain=big bucks for syedna, murder of hussain=jannat for sinner abdes, murder of hussain=picnics for abdes,... should i carry on?

[ghulam muhammed]

according to the abde viewpoint, hussain gave up his head so that abde dawoodis could do maatam for him

According to abde viewpoint, Hussain (a.s.) gave up his head so that abde dawoodis could put their own heads on their master's feet (sajda).

Also according to abde viewpoint, the copyright of karbala story has been exclusively given to the dai by Hussain (a.s.) and the dai alone has the right to 'sell' it during mohurrum to whichever jamat he wants to and at whatever price he feels is reasonable (various jamats bidding for the vayez and the bids are Rs.50 crore upwards).

[Al Zulfiqar]

according to abde viewpoint, the copyright of karbala story has been exclusively given to the dai by Hussain

good one bro. gm...!

[JC]

A new slogan is just on its way to be added to long list of already existing slogans for Matam Bidat .........

Burhan-ul-huda, Al-Jadeed ........... Qutub-ul-huda, Al-Shaheed, Burhan-ul-huda, Al-Jadeed .........

[Al Zulfiqar]

according to a DABR on this forum, (i dont remember on exactly which thread) the maatam to mourn hussein's shahadat is a celebration of syedna's long life and is a path to jannat....

can it get any better than this?

[ghulam muhammed]

according to a DABR on this forum, (i dont remember on exactly which thread) the maatam to mourn hussein's shahadat is a celebration of syedna's long life and is a path to jannat....

can it get any better than this?

No wonder the solemn month of mohurrum is refered to as "Ashara Mubarak".

[profastian]

according to a DABR on this forum, (i dont remember on exactly which thread) the maatam to mourn hussein's shahadat is a celebration of syedna's long life and is a path to jannat....

can it get any better than this?

No wonder the solemn month of mohurrum is refered to as "Ashara Mubarak".

Ignorant gits like you should first learn what Mubarak means before commenting.

[ghulam muhammed]

Ignorant gits like you should first learn what Mubarak means before commenting

Please enlighten us with your "intellectual" version of Ashura Mubaraka.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Ignorant gits like you should first learn what Mubarak means ...

please explain why we shouldnt refer to you as "HIMAAR MUBARAK"..??

[profastian]

Ignorant gits like you should first learn what Mubarak means ...

please explain why we shouldnt refer to you as "HIMAAR MUBARAK"..??

I thought you had all rights reserved to that title. I wouldn't mind it if you can sell the copyrights to me..

[Al Zulfiqar]

[please explain why we shouldnt refer to you as "HIMAAR MUBARAK"..??

I wouldn't mind it if you can sell the copyrights to me..

prof,

what more proof does one require of your gullibility and naivette'?

how can i sell you the copyrights to a title you already indisputably own?? that you were awarded by syedna?

[mmv]

"Mataam Majlis in Shukur of Huzurala Tus 101mi Milaad in Surat" .

[humanbeing]

100 minutes Maatam Majlis for Long Life Prayer of Sayedna Saheb. Is being conducted in Kuwait.

[Al Zulfiqar]

100 minutes Maatam Majlis for Long Life Prayer of Sayedna Saheb. Is being conducted in Kuwait.

100 minutes only?? is that all??!!

it shud be atleast 1000 hours..

[Al Zulfiqar]

i've reliably learnt that maatam has already started in several towns to celebrate syedna's 102nd birthday and will end only on the actual day of his birth.

all momeneen are requested to do the same, whether they are at work, at home or on a picnic, travelling or in hospital.

muffy mola has been informed by bro. hoze' that imam hussain too will be joining in this maatam in jannat.

[Al Zulfiqar]

we need the scholarly comments of our great friend adam on this thread.

nothing in this universe can be understood without him.

[Liberalguy]

I am really happy that these points are being brought forward and discussed.
Actually these are group dynamics misused by powerful people only to control and exploit.
As someone pointed out about pledge and national anthem, yes these too are group dynamics but neutral. Group dynamics are genereal, common and neutral psychological phenomena. Wherever there is any organization, leader, follower/memebers, there are group dynamics.

The difference between normal/legitimate dynamics and exploitaion/mind control can be obvious as well as blurry.
The techniques used by DB leaders are harmful, exploitative and sinister, but DB leaders are not unique in using these techniques, though they have evolved so much throughout history that they are damn good at it.
like any mind control groups, members are unable to spot it and even if they do have doubts, they are countered by other techniques.

The first step to deprogramming could be START READING ABOUT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY FROM NEUTRAL SOURCES, AS THEY TRY THEIR BEST TO CONTROL INFORMATION AND WOULD DISCOURAGE YOU TO READ ANYTHING AGAINST THEM AND WOULD MAKE YOU IMMUNE TO TRUTHS AGAINST GROUP, EVEN IF YOU DO READ, YOU WOULD START RUNNING THE GROUP'S DEFAULT SOFTWARE AND DISMISS IT. But over time one can overcome it through intense research.

Remeber that you'll find group dynamics wnerever there are groups, but there is difference between mind control and general group dynamics.

I would like to address matam issue. Matam, ie mourning, in this case for the imam hussain, is faith based and CANNOT BE CONSIDERED MIND CONTROL IF ONE IS DOING IT ON HIS OWN AND NOT FORCED THROUGH GROUP/AUTHORITY. Now devout DBs would say that we are doing it voluntarily and not forced upon. Actually this is the remarkable trait of mind control that subject doesn't even know that he is forced upon.
Matam can be considered one of the many mind control physical exhaustion and emotional arousal techniques used by cults and other mind control groups. Like a yoga cult would use over breathing and thought stopping meditation techniques to not let member think critically and physical exhaustion.

NOW REMEMBER THAT ALL MIND CONTROL TECHNIQUES CAN BE USED IN DAILY LIFE WHICH MAY NOT MEANT TO BE USED FOR ANY EXPLOITATIVE PURPOSE, BUT ITS SUBTLE AND ONE NEEDS TO RESEARCH MORE ONLY TO UNDERSTAND CONTEXT AND RELATE IT.

There can be nothing wrong with matam, if one does in his home alone thinking about atrocities imam husain beared, but it starts becoming mind control if someone starts building guilt in you if you don't do it daily' every now and then and forces you to shed tear and beat chest vigorously even if you are not at that time feeling it that intensely.
MOURNING IS AND EMOTIONAL AND PERSONAL THING WHICH SHOULD NOT BE FORCED THROUGH GROUP THINKING.

don't you think that DB leaders had made it more mechanical and ritualistic rather than a deep sorrow, personally felt by an individual, it has been associated with DB leader and group. It is no longer a direct sorrow one feels over imam hussain' but intermingled with bohra leader.
To conclude, matam, in DB has become mind control technique rather than a personal, religious and pious activity. Thanks to syedna.

[Liberalguy]

the practice of self-inflicted violence, either on an individual basis spurred on by psychological aberrations, or indulged in en masse' and encouraged by the state or religious leaders, is nothing new. there are detailed studies showing its physical and mental effects on society and the purposes for which they have been cunningly used over centuries.

here is a compilation of material from various sources, although many comments/observations are mine. before i post it here, it will be pertinent to discuss the reply of sister mass on public and pvt expressions of grief from islamic history. the significant difference here is that the incidents she has posted relate to 'incidental' grief, i.e. for the moment and temporary, as opposed to ritualistic, annual and institutionalised displays of grief en masse', which are generally political in nature and are sinister tools exploited by the state and religion to manipulate the minds of people.

Those who engage in self-harm face the contradictory reality of harming themselves whilst at the same time obtaining relief from this act. It may even be hard for some to actually initiate cutting, but they often do because they know the relief that will follow. For some self-harmers this relief is primarily psychological whilst for others this feeling of relief comes from the beta endorphins released in the brain. Endorphins are endogenous opioids that are released in response to physical injury, act as natural painkillers, and induce pleasant feelings and would act to reduce tension and emotional distress. Many self-harmers report feeling very little to no pain while self-harming and, for some, deliberate self-harm may become a means of seeking pleasure.

Alternatively, self-harm may be a means of feeling something, even if the sensation is unpleasant and painful. Those who self-harm sometimes describe feelings of emptiness or numbness (anhedonia), and physical pain may be a relief from these feelings. "A person may be detached from himself or herself, detached from life, numb and unfeeling. They may then recognise the need to function more, or have a desire to feel real again, and a decision is made to create sensation and 'wake up'."

As a coping mechanism, self-harm can become psychologically addictive because, to the self-harmer, it works; it enables him/her to deal with intense stress in the current moment. The patterns sometimes created by it, such as specific time intervals between acts of self-harm, can also create a behavioural pattern that can result in a wanting or craving to fulfill thoughts of self-harm.

The perspective of Western cultures is not favorable toward self-injury. However, the perspective of other cultures differs. Some cultures use self-injury as a form of identification for family or tribal units, whereas others use self-induced scars as a sign of adulthood, a symbol of beauty, or a rite of passage (Kehrberg, 1997). Self-injury behavior first appeared in clinical literature in 1913 (Shaw, 2002). Historically, the significance of blood as a method of payment for or forgiveness of wrongdoing (sin) is recorded extensively throughout biblical and extra-biblical literature. In the fifth century B.C., Herodotus in his Book 6 of History described a Spartan leader who cut himself with a knife. Hippocrates in 300 B.C. developed a theory that people could be rebalanced through bloodletting, blistering, vomiting, and so forth to cleanse the body (Clark & Henslin, 2007).

During the first century A.D., Christian clergy and laity practiced self-flagellation. Early Church martyrs, such as the Desert Fathers, promoted penance through self-flagellation with small leather whips (Favazza, 1996). In the 13th century, the religious orders renewed this practice, which spread and continued into the next century, especially in response to the bubonic plague because followers believed the plague called for penance (Favazza, 1996; Levenkron, 1998). Favazza reports that this continues today, “particularly during the Lenten season prior to Easter, in areas such as the Philippines, Mexico, and some parts of the United States” (p. 40).

Self-injury for religious reasons is not unique to Christianity. The Abidji tribe on the Ivory Coast cut their abdomens with knives while entranced to celebrate the New Year festival, believing this will assuage guilt and anxiety and bring about healing for the entire tribe. Many shamans practice self-sacrifice to promote healing of self and others (Favazza, 1996; Strong, 1998). According to Hinduism, suffering and sacrifice are intended to help one identify with the cycles of creation and destruction and maintain control over these cycles. The followers of Shia Islam practice self-flagellation and self-infliction of wounds. Another Islamic sect, the Sufic brotherhood Hamadsha, conducts healing rituals in which they seek union with God by slashing their heads, eating spiny cactus, and drinking boiling water. Suffering is a way of penance for these followers and, according to their beliefs, perhaps even the path to salvation (Favazza, 1996).

Now in a Manchester courtroom a Shia Muslim has been found guilty of child cruelty because he made two teenage boys take part in a self-flagellation ritual using a whip made of knife blades. Syed Mustafa Zaidi's defence was that this is a traditional ceremony commemorating the death of Hussein, Muhammad's grandson, at the massacre of Karbala in AD 680.

On the day of Ashura some devotees whip their own backs with bunched knives known as zanjirs; others beat their chests rhythmically with their hands. Sunni Muslims and some Shia condemn the ritual as barbaric. But it would be a mistake to think it exceptional in religion generally. Christianity and Hinduism can offer examples that make zanjir self-flagellation look like a haircut. In the Hindu festival of Thaipusam a ritual known as kavadi is performed. It ranges from carrying heavy weights uphill to piercing the body, face and tongue with skewers, or dangling from meat hooks passed through the back and legs. “The greater the pain,” one text says, “the greater the god-earned merit.”
In the festival for the goddess Draupadi, believers walk on red-hot coals as an act of devotion or penance. Descriptions claim that devotees feel nothing, having entered a trance-like state; which would seem somewhat to reduce both the devotional and penitential value.

The overall conclusion that one can derive is that the practice or deliberate encouragement and provocation of self-flagellation is nothing but torture in one of its various forms. By associating it either with masochism - a display of male virility, or linking it with appeasement and placation of a supreme being and thus earning spiritual salvation, is a political strategy to enhance power, to erode the subjects, to humiliate, to create dependence, to intimidate, to restrain, to control, to paralyse.

All religions have in the past carried out extreme forms of torture for these express purposes. In fact, it is widely believed that human sacrifice preceded animal offerings to buy salvation and appease the gods. Thus the story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son Ismail, who was then substituted by a sheep at the last minute.

In the case of the bohras, they are being cruelly and very cleverly manipulated to believe that regular and ritualistic self-torture of themselves (for which the kerbala incident has become a convenient handle to exploit, and if that did not exist, something else equally expedient would have been found) will bring them the khushi of maula and Allah and they are therefore encouraged to engage in more and more inflictment of self-violence.

Any sane person should be asking this logical question, Would Allah who is an all loving, benevolent being who wishes for our well-being, derive his own happiness from seeing us inflicting pain upon ourselves? Can that make any religious sense?

If the British courts eventually convicted Zaidi for inflicting cruelty on his sons, setting aside his defense of religious beliefs as it did not involve informed acquiescence of his sons who are minors , would any bohra/s have the daring to file suit against syedna for being an instigator of sado-masochistic torture as a form of enslavement??

This research is amazing! It signifies the whole sado-masochistic relationship between leader and follower in DBs and matam actually strenghtens it at unconscious and subliminal level.

[Al Zulfiqar]

its amazing and quite telling that not one abde was converted inspite of this detailed expose' on self-flagellation and hypnosis induced self-inflictment of pain and torture upon one's body, the same body which is god's gift to us, the same body which if subjected to a failed attempt at suicide is considered a criminal offense in many countries and subject to strict penal codes.

as the bohras are being subtly led deeper into the abyss of self-torture and exhorted evermore to seek salvation, mola's khushi and sehato aafeeyat ta qayamat by indulging in incessant maatam, they are being dumbed down as their brain receptors become addicted to this daily dose, nay 5 daily doses (not forgetting frantic beating of chests at the end of every namaaz),

what better slave than a self-confessed one?

[ghulam muhammed]

what better slave than a self-confessed one?

Slavery in bohras is the most unique one, something which cannot be found in any pre historic books. The very defination of slavery is changed i.e. Normally a master buys slaves but in bohras, the slave himself "BUYS" his own slavery, by way of multiple unheard of taxes imposed upon him !

[Al Zulfiqar]

this may be an apocryphal example, but perhaps most apt;

enjoy the services of a prostitute and then demand that she pay you for the sharaf!

substitute abde for .... any need to elaborate??

[Al Zulfiqar]

abdes are eloquent with their silence on this thread.

conclusions are obvious.

[SBM]

Now Abdes do Maatam in front of some stone

http://www.zeninfosys.net/zi6/sites/zen ... ic%209.jpg