Tarikh of STS & SMB By Al Aalim

[profastian]

In all your posts., you all complain that the DAI did something to you or someone else. So you are against him.
Tell me, hypothetically, if you were in the prophet's era, and the prophet called you up and
had a go on you with a stick, tell you are barely alive. And then he lets you go without giving any reason at all.
Would you still believe in him and love him or would you renounce him and why?
Let me give you my answer, I would still love him. Because i would think that what he did was to my betterment.
And I would think this,only because ,I had listened to him and had known that he had much much more knowledge then me,
and he would know better. So the only thing that would impress me, would be the ilm.
If on the other hand, any other person, who prayed five times a day, kept rozas , had perfect etiquette but no ilm
would do such a thing to me. I would retaliate, because he possesses nothing substantial to impress me.
And that was the difference between Abu Bakr and ALI. Abu Bakr may have done everything endorsed by the Prophet(though he didn't)
but his ilm was just of no comparison to ALI(Not that he had no ilm, Omar and Usman were Jahil though). Similarly this is the difference
between yours and ours idealogy and thinking. Yours is based on actions. You get impressed by outwardly appearances. Whereas our ideology
is based on ilm and the Syedna being the ultimate Aalim. We bohras, haven't found any one who has more ilm than the DAI.(Mind you there are a lot of highly educated
bohras out there, much more than you guys).If we find someone who possesses more ilm than our Syedna(we wouldn't), we would surely follow him.
Now you guys answer my question
Would you still believe in him and love him or would you renounce him and why?

[Smart]

profastian wrote,

Told you dude, he doesn't mean the money. BTW, what is the link of knowledge and money any way. Just shows your materialistic mentality.
Do you believe that Prohpet had all the knowledge? If you do, then by your logic ,all the world's money should have come his way. And as he was the most generous, the Muslims in his
time wud all have been prosperous. No need of Zakat, then.

My question does not show my materialistic mentality. it is the syedna and his establishment that is being materialistic. I will give you some examples:
1. Look at the extortion going around. Only the blind and the prejudiced will say there is no extortion. it is not only at the lower levels and in some places. It is everywhere and at all levels, right to the top.

2. Why do the sons and family members of the syedna call themselves, shahzadaas? Is being a shahzaada a spiritual and knowledgeable position or does it have connotation to money and power?

3. What ilm are you talking about? The so called ilm is trivia posited as deep knowledge. Just look at the mathematical vaez, on close scrutiny it turned out to be a dud. The whole world view that is propagated by the syedna's establishment is a neo platonic cosmology, which almost a thousand year old, the world has progressed much beyond that.

4. if the ilm, is so profound, why is everybody so reluctant to open up to scrutiny? Why do you have to be a completely brainwashed abde to be able to get it? The peddlars of so called 'ilm' know what is the worth of what they dish out, so are reluctant to share openly and hide under such tranparent ruses of taqiya and maslehat and what not.

My question about money, was only to bring to your attention the extortion that is being done in the name of Islam and deen. It is your lords and masters who are materialistic and not me. It is they who sell titles, it is they who go only to houses of rich bohras and after negotiating for najwas, it is they who measure abdes not by their piety and knowledge, but how much money they have.

[profastian]

My question about money, was only to bring to your attention the extortion that is being done in the name of Islam and deen. It is your lords and masters who are materialistic and not me. It is they who sell titles, it is they who go only to houses of rich bohras and after negotiating for najwas, it is they who measure abdes not by their piety and knowledge, but how much money they have.

If you have ever attended the waaz, you will see that students and the teachers of Jamia sit in front of all the Sheikhs. Hence the importance of ilm over money in our creed.
And what aspects of platonic cosmology do we preach which have been proven to be false by modern science? I

[accountability]

And what aspects of platonic cosmology do we preach which have been proven to be false by modern science?

profastian

You are right, nothing is taught in madrasa except madehs. so the question of proven wrong does not arise.
The analogy in your above post is irrelevant. First prophet would never ever touch you without reason. Prophet's whole life is manifest of tolerance, forgiveness and kindness. He has never hurt a person in his entire life. He had not outcasted even his worst enemies. After fateh makka, he forgave every one who fought against him. It is even blasphameous to give such an example. On the other hand you are trying to equate syedna saheb with Rasulillah. That is also very wrong. According to mustali tayebi dawoodi bohra faith, dai is the summoner to shariate mohammadi.
That is all. Dai has a status of naib to present secluded imam. His duties are to summon the faithfuls to imam's dawat. He can not claim any prefrence over imam, let alone Rasulillah.
These and other kinds of examples are routinely doled out to justify the rowdy and corrupt attitude of present bohra administration.

[profastian]

And what aspects of platonic cosmology do we preach which have been proven to be false by modern science?

profastian

You are right, nothing is taught in madrasa except madehs. so the question of proven wrong does not arise.
The analogy in your above post is irrelevant. First prophet would never ever touch you without reason.

I said hypothetically, what if? You can certainly conjure up such a scenario in your mind.

[accountability]

Dont hypothesise on Prophet. Religion should not be based on hypothesis. If all your examples are based on hypothesis, then they are all worthless. Syedna cannot claim to be all knowing. Only God and only God knows all. Even prophet did not claim to be all knowing.

[Smart]

profastian wrote,
If you have ever attended the waaz, you will see that students and the teachers of Jamia sit in front of all the Sheikhs. Hence the importance of ilm over money in our creed.

Oh that is a token, a hypocrisy. Now tell me how many houses the syedna has gone for ziyafat, especially houses of jamia students, without being paid a najwa? Such hypocrisy is rampant. Don't they use Islam and deen and quran and distort all the concepts so as to be able to extract all possible amounts in all possible ways?

Such token actions and hypocrisy is necessary to project the divinity of their mission. It is like the heads of vaishnav maths, claiming that they are the reincarnation of Krishna and their beautiful devotee is Radha, when they want to rape her. What is he difference? Physical rape there, financial rape here.

[Smart]

@profastian,
And what aspects of platonic cosmology do we preach which have been proven to be false by modern science?

The neo-platonic cosmology that the present establishment believes and propounds is a geocentric system based on the concepts of Ptolemy and the mathematics of Euclid. The seven heavens are based on the concept of perfect solids.

This concept is derived from the cosmological sections of the "Ikhwanus Safaa", which was the collection of upto date knowledge when it was written.

Of course, the language they are couched in is different.

This concept of the structure of the Universe was first superseded by the heliocentric concept about 500 years ago. Things have advanced much more after that.

And, you call somebody stuck with antediluvian ideas as the "Ultimate Aalim"?

[profastian]

@profastian,
And what aspects of platonic cosmology do we preach which have been proven to be false by modern science?

The neo-platonic cosmology that the present establishment believes and propounds is a geocentric system based on the concepts of Ptolemy and the mathematics of Euclid. The seven heavens are based on the concept of perfect solids.

This concept is derived from the cosmological sections of the "Ikhwanus Safaa", which was the collection of upto date knowledge when it was written.

Of course, the language they are couched in is different.

This concept of the structure of the Universe was first superseded by the heliocentric concept about 500 years ago. Things have advanced much more after that.

And, you call somebody stuck with antediluvian ideas as the "Ultimate Aalim"?

(Nice copy paste).I know what neo-platonic cosmology very well. Thank you. What I asked was which aspects of it do we preach that have been refuted by modern science. Name just one please.

[profastian]

@profastian,
And what aspects of platonic cosmology do we preach which have been proven to be false by modern science?

The neo-platonic cosmology that the present establishment believes and propounds is a geocentric system based on the concepts of Ptolemy and the mathematics of Euclid. The seven heavens are based on the concept of perfect solids.

This concept is derived from the cosmological sections of the "Ikhwanus Safaa", which was the collection of upto date knowledge when it was written.

Of course, the language they are couched in is different.

This concept of the structure of the Universe was first superseded by the heliocentric concept about 500 years ago. Things have advanced much more after that.

And, you call somebody stuck with antediluvian ideas as the "Ultimate Aalim"?

Are you insane, Have you heard anyone preach geocentri-ism? we are the true believers of Helio-centricism. In fact, in this moharram, I heard a Shahzada talk about the earth revolving around the sun. I don't know who puts ideas in your head.

[Smart]

I am not insane. Ask your Zaada, if he was teaching from his geography text book or Iqhwanus Safaa? The concept of seven heavens is an outcome of the Ptolemic system.

By the way, my post was not a cut and paste job. Calling me insane and such other names does not make you intelligent.

If you think I was wrong, give some reference to the Bohra cosmology or put up your ideas.

Your 'Zaadas are confused for sure. They are semi-literate at best. They can't be held up as a reference. The only redeeming feature about a majority of them is that they are from the family of the syedna, nothing less, nothing more.

[accountability]

Prof... I could second smart, I have heard in waeez, quotes from ikhwan us safa that sun and all others planets are moving around earth. That is geo centrism. Actually it is also in quran part 13, Sura Abraheem - 14, Verse 23
It says sun and moon moves around earth.
It is obvious shahzadas do not have much familarity with science and geography, so far as I know, they have not been to any modern university or college. so if they are discussing it accroding to ikhwan it is what they are taught.
Lot of things which are taught in jamea and in sabaqs are quite contradictory. The authenticity of the text neither is required nor desired.
Daim ul islam written by syedna qadi noman are nowhere to be found in a book form, rather what jamea has is unauthenticated scriptures by unknown sources.

[anajmi]

accty,

Please do not make things up about the Quran

This is what 14:23 says

Asad
ASAD:But those who shall have attained to faith and done righteous deeds will be brought into gardens to abide by their Sustainer's leave, and will be welcomed with the greeting, "Peace".
YUSUFALI: But those who believe and work righteousness will be admitted to gardens beneath which rivers flow,- to dwell therein for aye with the leave of their Lord. Their greeting therein will be: "Peace!"
PICKTHAL: And those who believed and did good works are made to enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow, therein abiding by permission of their Lord, their greeting therein: Peace!
SHAKIR: And those who believe and do good are made to enter gardens, beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them by their Lord's permission; their greeting therein is, Peace.

There is no mention of sun and moon in this ayah. At least look up an ayah before you reference them over here to verify if they actually say what you claim they say. Another thing to do would be to always paste what an ayah says whenever you reference an ayah, that way, you won't make these silly mistakes or commit gross sin.

You are no better than any Amil out there in interpreting the Quran.

[accountability]

anajmi i am sorry i quoted the wrong ayah.
Here is the ayah "And you might have seen, the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left."

[Soorah al-Kahf 18:17]
He has described the declining and turning away as descriptions of the sun, and that is a proof that the movement was from the sun. If it was a description of the earth, He would have said: Their Cave declined from it. Likewise, describing the sun as rising and setting proves that it is the sun which revolves, even though the indication of the may be less than the indication in His Words: "declining" and "turning away from them."
this is from Ash-Shaykh Muhammad bin Saalih al-`Uthaymeen

[accountability]

Now dont ask me who is the sheikh, this is the link from wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_al_Uthaymeen. he is a wahabi scholar.

[anajmi]

accty,

You are talking about people in the 14th century, I will prove it to you that people even today believe that the sun revolves around the earth. Look at this website

http://www.sunrisesunset.com/custom_srss_calendar.asp

It will tell you sunrise and sunset times in the 21 st century. What a bunch of idiots. Only the 2 of us are the smart ones. And look at this link

http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/C ... 2875&hl=en

People are asking google to provide a sunrise and sunset calendar. What a bunch of idiots. Don't they know that the sun doesn't rise and set but it is the earth that revolves around the sun?

Even the department of defense and naval command in the US have sunrise and sunset calendars

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.php

Oh My God what is happening to the world. They are all talking about sunrise and sunset. How could this be happening??? Don't they know that the earth revolves around the sun?

[accountability]

sheikh was not from 14th century, he was very much around in 20th century. He was from saudia, spoke and understood the same language, he was one of the scholar, and he made out from the ayah that he said. You from india, do not speak the same language as quran, but you claim to deny what he is saying, and you are not "the scholar" in islamic fiqah. Logically whose words should carry more wieght.

[accountability]

besides what is wrong in believing that sun moves around earth, hasn't science been proved wrong many a times.

[porus]

This is getting a bit silly. The concept of relative motion has been around since the time of Galileo. You can choose any frame of reference and arbitrarily consider any spot in the universe stationary and you can measure motions of other objects relative to that spot.

Since Einstein, we have learned that there is no absolute space, no absolute time, and no absolute motion. So, anything can be moving or stationary with respect to everything else, depending on your location.

If you are on earth, sun moves. If you are on the moon, earth moves. If you are in the middle of Milky Way, the whole solar system moves. If you are in the middle of Andromeda Galaxy, the Milky Way moves and so on.

[anajmi]

accty,

The question is, do you trust the sheikh absolutely or do you trust yourself? If the sheikh says that according to the Quran the sun revolves around the earth, then the sheikh doesn't know what he is talking about.

I am asking you, what do you think the Quran is saying?

besides what is wrong in believing that sun moves around earth, hasn't science been proved wrong many a times.

Then why bring it up in the first place?

That particular ayah of the Quran is simply suggesting that the cave is facing north, based upon where the sun is rising and where the sun is setting so that the people of the cave were always in the shade. If you are better than that shiekh, please try to understand ayahs before posting them.

Logically whose words should carry more wieght.

Logically, what has been proven should carry more weight.

[Muslim First]

That particular ayah of the Quran is simply suggesting that the cave is facing north, based upon where the sun is rising and where the sun is setting so that the people of the cave were always in the shade. If you are better than that shiekh, please try to understand ayahs before posting them.

Here is Maudidi's explaination
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem. ... e=13&to=17

(18:17) Had you seen them in the Cave12 it would have appeared to you that when the sun rose, it moved away from their Cave to the right; and when it set, it turned away from them to the left, while they remained in a spacious hollow in the Cave.13 This is one of the Signs of Allah. Whomsoever Allah guides, he alone is led aright; and whomsoever Allah lets go astray, you will find for him no guardian to direct him.

*12 It has not been mentioned that in accordance with this mutual resolve, they left the city and went to a secret Cave in the mountains in order to escape from death or forced apostasy.

*13 This is to show that the mouth of the Cave faced the north. That is why the light of the sun could not enter inside the Cave and the one who passed by it could not see who was inside it.

[accountability]

I agree with your porus, I am out.

[Smart]

Agree with Porus too. It is the relative motion, which depends on your frame of reference

@anajmi,
Your posts ridiculing the heliocentric system, over looks that fact that all humans are confined to the earth and this frame of reference is convenient for practical purposes. It does mean that these organisations consider the earth to be centre of the Universe.

For your kind information the mass of the sun is 99.86% of the entire solar system. The rest of the 0.14 consists of all the planets, their satellites and asteroids etc. Even if consider the metacentre, it would be almost near the centre of the sun.

[profastian]

anajmi i am sorry i quoted the wrong ayah.
Here is the ayah "And you might have seen, the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left."

[Soorah al-Kahf 18:17]
He has described the declining and turning away as descriptions of the sun, and that is a proof that the movement was from the sun. If it was a description of the earth, He would have said: Their Cave declined from it. Likewise, describing the sun as rising and setting proves that it is the sun which revolves, even though the indication of the may be less than the indication in His Words: "declining" and "turning away from them."
this is from Ash-Shaykh Muhammad bin Saalih al-`Uthaymeen

What a worderful interpretation
Actually,according to newton, both the sun and earth revolve around each other. Its only because the gravity of the sun is much larger than the earth, that the apparent motion seems to be the earth revolving around the sun.
As for Ikhwan-us-Safa, what it says is that the heavlenly bodies have their effect(Taaseer) on the earth, and in that way the earth is at the center.
I have the English translation of the Ikhwan if you want to verify.

[accountability]

it is a good idea, why dont you post ikhwan's english translation, may be admin will help you put on the site.

[profastian]

profastian wrote,

My question about money, was only to bring to your attention the extortion that is being done in the name of Islam and deen. It is your lords and masters who are materialistic and not me. It is they who sell titles, it is they who go only to houses of rich bohras and after negotiating for najwas,it is they who measure abdes not by their piety and knowledge, but how much money they have.

Extortion: outwresting, and/or exaction is a criminal offense which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion. (www.wikipedia.com)
Coercion: is the practice of compelling a person or manipulating them to behave in an involuntary way (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, intimidation, trickery, or some other form of pressure or force. These are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in the desired way. (www.wikipedia.com)

Are their any threats to arrange a ziyafat. Is anyone compelled to give ziyafat. In fact, there is a queue of Bohras willing to give ziyafats. So where is the extortion?