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Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:52 pm
by monginis
Bismillah,
this riwayat was told in our madressa when I was kid.
some DAI (dont remember his name most probably he was father of qutbuddin shaheed) was praying salah and his kid fell in well, but he didnt bothered to look for child well being but he continued his salah.
now this sounds like he was respecting salah over his son but actually it is absurd.
Imam Hussain broke his tawaaf just to help some momeen, while this DAI didnt broke his salah even when his son life was in danger?
I dont think ALLAH want such salah?
any one can explain this?
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:01 pm
by seeker110
If it doesn't make sense with science, logic and God given common sense, than don't be bothered with fairy tales.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:29 pm
by monginis
one more riwayat which is really amusing.
some dai was under heavy debt of some lender and he was so threaten he was not able to come out of his house or leave his devri, now it is pretty clear that money was taken on INTEREST.
how come dai take money on interest?
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:31 pm
by monginis
while we are kid we dont give much attention on these riwayats, but when we grow older and if we recall, this all looks really funny.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:08 am
by Habeel
It was Dai Dawood bin Qutubshah. My friend, history is full of contradictions ,facts and contexts. One can prove anything based on what he/she believes. As an example, Abdul Mutalib (AS) did not bother to save kaaba when king abrahat attacked kaaba. Ibrahim Nabi (swt) denied help from Jibraeel (as) while Nimrod throwing him in fire. Each situation is unique and contextual. These questions never ends, one after another it reappears in different form. After accepting belief with conviction, trust is the key. I don't mean to have belief with blind eyes but belief is necessary and fundamental building block of the faith and structure of religion.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:17 am
by shehzaada
Bro monginis,
When you reject the truth going after baseless "riwayats" confusion is what happens , people of Haqq are in certainty of faith and its scriptures , not just by emotions but by verifiable proofs.
Remember if db are not on haqq it means the entire chain of daee are also not on haqq , and they would infact be adversaries to the saved sect. Hence enemies of Allah and his messenger.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:37 am
by monginis
Habeel wrote:It was Dai Dawood bin Qutubshah. My friend, history is full of contradictions ,facts and contexts. One can prove anything based on what he/she believes. As an example, Abdul Mutalib (AS) did not bother to save kaaba when king abrahat attacked kaaba. Ibrahim Nabi (swt) denied help from Jibraeel (as) while Nimrod throwing him in fire. Each situation is unique and contextual. These questions never ends, one after another it reappears in different form. After accepting belief with conviction, trust is the key. I don't mean to have belief with blind eyes but belief is necessary and fundamental building block of the faith and structure of religion.
In the riwayat I am talking about, DAI is portrait like holier than thou, while IMAM HUSSAIN action was exactly opposite.
what IMAM HUSSAIN did shows HUMANITY and life of HUMAN comes first, than any kind of worship, this kind of attitude is more suitable for modern world, and not some kind of extremism.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:34 am
by humanbeing
There are few riwayats we can discuss;
Sayyeda Fatema, collecting tears all her life in a glass jar and requesting Imam Ali to place it in her grave, so she could save the mumineen ( specially abdes) from hell fire by sprinkling those tears ; “Shafa’at”
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A childless couple approaching prophet muhammed for praying to Allah to grant them a child, Prophet Muhammed expressed helplessness to couple citing it is a Allah’s decision not to grant them child, meanwhile, Imam Hussein (a child) pledges that couple with 7 children, while prophet muhammed explains to Imam Hussein; that it is against Allah’s will, everytime Prophet tries to stop Imam Hussein, He keeps increasing the number of children to 7. Moral of the riwayat was to emphasize importance of Imam Hussein in eyes of Allah.
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Prophet Muhammed knew the future of Imam Hussein and Imam hassan’s martyrdom. With that reference, there are few instances orated wherein Prophet Muhammed expresses his grief over future events.
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One Dai is manning his shop and there is a time for prayer, a thought comes to his mind to spend some more minutes doing business, then he approached a well to get some water to make ‘wudu’ to his surprise, he gets a bucketful of gems. He is dismayed and understands his mistake. He prays for forgiveness and request for water to make ‘wudu’.
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Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:19 am
by monginis
humanbeing wrote:There are few riwayats we can discuss;
Sayyeda Fatema, collecting tears all her life in a glass jar and requesting Imam Ali to place it in her grave, so she could save the mumineen ( specially abdes) from hell fire by sprinkling those tears ; “Shafa’at”
seems this is used as a metaphorically but these new guys used it to exploit people.
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A childless couple approaching prophet muhammed for praying to Allah to grant them a child, Prophet Muhammed expressed helplessness to couple citing it is a Allah’s decision not to grant them child, meanwhile, Imam Hussein (a child) pledges that couple with 7 children, while prophet muhammed explains to Imam Hussein; that it is against Allah’s will, everytime Prophet tries to stop Imam Hussein, He keeps increasing the number of children to 7. Moral of the riwayat was to emphasize importance of Imam Hussein in eyes of Allah.
This sounds awkward, after all prophet is above all.
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Prophet Muhammed knew the future of Imam Hussein and Imam hassan’s martyrdom. With that reference, there are few instances orated wherein Prophet Muhammed expresses his grief over future events.
this is possible, foresightedness is found in all prophets and pious people.
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One Dai is manning his shop and there is a time for prayer, a thought comes to his mind to spend some more minutes doing business, then he approached a well to get some water to make ‘wudu’ to his surprise, he gets a bucketful of gems. He is dismayed and understands his mistake. He prays for forgiveness and request for water to make ‘wudu’.
this is also possible, ALLAH can take exams of awliyah ullah.
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Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:57 am
by Akhtiar Wahid
Shia schism was intentionally divided by jews, Jews have purposely spread false stories and riwayats about our ahle-e-bayts and Imams to create more confusion and ultimately new sects in Shia Islam. The only problem with Shia muslims is that they give importance to other elements and Sahebs above par. As you can notice in our waazes and bayans most of the time importance is given to sahebs and less is spoken about Imams, Ahle bayt and Prophet Mohammed (SAW) the messenger who brought Islam.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:36 am
by AgnosticIndian
Dawat was in debt for a long time till 40 odd dais IIRC. Debt to whom remains a question. If the debt was owned to any DB, and if the Misaq was there back then, then the Dai could have called upon to pledge it all in the "Khidmat" of Dawat. So it all makes no sense. Where things don't make sense, they will say its all to do with "Hikmat" and you need more "Ikhlas" to understand and need more higher level of learning.
So basically our stuff is not for ordinary mortals like us but only "higher ups". AamBohri has to shut up and follow what he is told and also pay up when told to
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:48 am
by monginis
AgnosticIndian wrote:Dawat was in debt for a long time till 40 odd dais IIRC. Debt to whom remains a question. If the debt was owned to any DB, and if the Misaq was there back then, then the Dai could have called upon to pledge it all in the "Khidmat" of Dawat. So it all makes no sense. Where things don't make sense, they will say its all to do with "Hikmat" and you need more "Ikhlas" to understand and need more higher level of learning.
So basically our stuff is not for ordinary mortals like us but only "higher ups". AamBohri has to shut up and follow what he is told and also pay up when told to
ROFL
its just proves how much history is distorted in last 150 years.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:33 am
by monginis
this is some mind blowing news
mahabharata character is alive from last 5000 years and he comes regularly to do puja in this temple.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nASdVsHLT6M
not trying to compare anything, but just amused by this report.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:31 am
by salaar
by the way the riwayat initially quoted by monginis about pulling the son out of well is not associated with any Dai but it is related with Imam Ali Zainul Abideen who completed his prayers and then gave his hand to pull up his young son Imam Mohammad ul Baqir out of the well.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:37 am
by monginis
salaar wrote:by the way the riwayat initially quoted by monginis about pulling the son out of well is not associated with any Dai but it is related with Imam Ali Zainul Abideen who completed his prayers and then gave his hand to pull up his young son Imam Mohammad ul Baqir out of the well.
Thanx bhai salaar, its been 20 years I left madressa and as usual we dont have books which we can read and recall things.
but if person in riwayat was Imam, then this gets more interesting, apologies but I am trying to dissect things in rational way.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:49 am
by humanbeing
monginis wrote:humanbeing wrote:There are few riwayats we can discuss;
Sayyeda Fatema, collecting tears all her life in a glass jar and requesting Imam Ali to place it in her grave, so she could save the mumineen ( specially abdes) from hell fire by sprinkling those tears ; “Shafa’at”
seems this is used as a metaphorically but these new guys used it to exploit people.
One must listen to the orators, they say it as a fact, rather than a metaphor ! even metaphorically it may be objectionable, as one is responsible for their own deeds. However concept of Shafa’at has been discussed in detail on this thread.
Apart from baraat (excommunication), Shafa’at ( intercession) is second biggest tool in hands of kothar to scare and control abdes !
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monginis wrote:humanbeing wrote:A childless couple approaching prophet muhammed for praying to Allah to grant them a child, Prophet Muhammed expressed helplessness to couple citing it is a Allah’s decision not to grant them child, meanwhile, Imam Hussein (a child) pledges that couple with 7 children, while prophet muhammed explains to Imam Hussein; that it is against Allah’s will, everytime Prophet tries to stop Imam Hussein, He keeps increasing the number of children to 7. Moral of the riwayat was to emphasize importance of Imam Hussein in eyes of Allah.
This sounds awkward, after all prophet is above all.
One can understand the zeal of the orator to thump down importance of Imam Hussein, but to a sane mind, it rather presents arrogance against Allah’s will. It would have been more appropriate story if it was ; Imam Hussein prays to Allah to bless the childless couple and Allah fulfilling Imam Hussein’s wish.
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monginis wrote:humanbeing wrote:Prophet Muhammed knew the future of Imam Hussein and Imam hassan’s martyrdom. With that reference, there are few instances orated wherein Prophet Muhammed expresses his grief over future events.
this is possible, foresightedness is found in all prophets and pious people.
This is not foresightedness ! It was a factual event many years later. It defeats the spirit and moral of Prophet and his family’s struggle & determination in face of unknown atrocity or challenge. Characters are built in face of adversity !
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monginis wrote:humanbeing wrote:One Dai is manning his shop and there is a time for prayer, a thought comes to his mind to spend some more minutes doing business, then he approached a well to get some water to make ‘wudu’ to his surprise, he gets a bucketful of gems. He is dismayed and understands his mistake. He prays for forgiveness and request for water to make ‘wudu’.
this is also possible, ALLAH can take exams of awliyah ullah.
A good lesson metaphorically !
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:20 pm
by Saeed al Khair
80 % dawoodi bohra literature are based on khurafaat and fabricated stories in which clergy added text as per the requirement of the time. Syedna burhanuddin and mufaddal bhai read so many riwayaat from bihaarul anwaar in waez of muharram and other days.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:28 pm
by JC
The whole Shia and Bohra ideology is based on Fairy Tales ............. there is no truth whatsoever.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:42 pm
by james
JC wrote:The whole Shia and Bohra ideology is based on Fairy Tales ............. there is no truth whatsoever.
Stop being butthurt. ( No pun intended )
Are you well read on Sunni views on homosexuality ?
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:48 pm
by JC
james wrote:JC wrote:The whole Shia and Bohra ideology is based on Fairy Tales ............. there is no truth whatsoever.
Stop being butthurt. ( No pun intended )
Are you well read on Sunni views on homosexuality ?
Yes I am well aware ...!!!
My teacher taught me 100 things, I follow my teacher 95% ..... will I get any credit for that 95% or I will be for ever beaten to death for balance 5%??? I CANNOT follow that 5%, period and I have been very honest about it.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:54 pm
by james
JC wrote:
Yes I am well aware ...!!!
It seems otherwise. Anyways what do you make of Sunni doctrine ? Is it based on Fairy Tales ?
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:56 pm
by james
JC wrote:
My teacher taught me 100 things, I follow my teacher 95% ..... will I get any credit for that 95% or I will be for ever beaten to death for balance 5%??? I CANNOT follow that 5%, period and I have been very honest about it.
Who is this teacher that you speak of ?
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 3:33 pm
by true_bohra
@jc
If you blame that shia ideologies are based on fairy tales then you are required to read sunni versions too...
Discussion will follow after that
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 3:39 pm
by ghulam muhammed
Lets accept the fact that many shia and sunni riwayats are based on fairy tales and for which one should not blame the sect itself but the vested interests who have distorted pieces of history to suit their own agendas. If that was not the case then we wouldn't be having so many sects of Islam, each one blowing its own trumpet !!
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 3:49 pm
by JC
My teacher is Prophet Mohammad and I have read him thru Quran and his Sunnah. I have read and heard Shias, Sunnis and Wahabis all. I use my brain in analyzing issues, facts and ideas, I put them in perspective and then move on .......... Grave Worshipping, Mortal worshipping etc do not make sense at all. As Bro GM has put it - nobdoy is 100% Right or Wrong but whatever we see today being practiced by Shias and specially Bohras are mostly non-sense and looks like fairy tales. Just see now Bohras have gradually eliminated Sunnah Namaz from their Masjids ........ after Fard, they immediately stand up (ofcourse after Matam) to pray Two-Rakkah for Mr. Burhanuddin and then immediately pray Two-Raka of Tawasul for Mr. Muffadal .......... WHAT IS THIS?? Nobody questions and ACTS as being told ... like sheep..... this shows a trend, a dangerous trend.
To me Islam was compeleted on Mohammad, after him there is nothing divine, all history. Quran is the book to follow, learn Arabic to read Quran, and if you read translations, try to read of translators accross the board and see all are same or what majority has said, then apply your knowledge and brain. God will help on Right Path; because after Mohammad NO divine individual has to come.
Re: Riwayat which bothers me almost every day
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 5:39 pm
by ghulam muhammed
The Quran described the Prophet as the Muallim (teacher) of Allah's Book and its Wisdom and as such his sayings and doings constitute an exposition of the philosophy of the Quran. This also means that no Prophetic saying or deed can go against the Quran, for how could the Messenger violate the very Message he brought?
But what if there are Ahaadith which contradict the Quran? Of course they need to questioned and their authenticity examined because it is possible that such traditions may have been wrongly attributed to the Prophet what he did not say or do. Muslim scholars have rejected several Aahaadith on this basis without their Eeman or motives being questioned. Therefore, it must be understood that rejection of questionable Ahaadith does not amount to the rejection of the Prophet. It only amounts to a rejection of unreliable reports wrongly attributed to our beloved Prophet.
Examples of doubtful Aahaadith
1.The missing verse
2. Humans made in the Image of God?
3. Will Allah put his foot in Hell?
http://twocircles.net/node/237414