Questions for Team SKQ

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Humsafar
Posts: 2573
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#121

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:03 pm

Crater Lake wrote: Everything Burhanuddin Moula did was in moderation.
Not true. There is enough evidence to give a lie to this statement. I'm noticing that in this rivalry between the acolytes of these two davedaars, Burhanuddin Saheb is getting a free pass. Suddenly his (and his father's) misdeeds are being whitewashed and he is being presented as a poster boy of virtue and kindness. Let us not forget that he had presided over the cretinisation and Talibanisation of Bohras. Mufaddal is just inheriting his legacy and taking it to ridiculous extremes. We remember how Burhanuddin saheb stood silently and witnessed the beating of Udaipur women and children in Galiyakot. He did not show any qualities of compassion, goodness or mercy.

AmmarHussaini
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:37 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#122

Unread post by AmmarHussaini » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:09 pm

when they want money they make people emotional by talking Imam Ali and Imam Hussain, but when they want to do ayyashi they suddenly forget those personality???

fustrate_Bohra
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:46 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#123

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:37 pm

People like adam and like minded are defending their masters

Hunting trip
Lavish lifestyle
acceptance of expensive gifts
forcefully extortion of money

Is these qualities they seek in religious leader?

Am 100% sure that they are on kothar payroll otherwise they would never ever come up to defend their master, instead all of them would have shut up theirs mouth.

Am also having strong gut feeling that now even die hard followers had put on their thinking cap and started seeing the wrong/idiotic things going in our community.

fustrate_Bohra
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:46 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#124

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:51 pm

Humsafar wrote:
Crater Lake wrote: Everything Burhanuddin Moula did was in moderation.
Not true. There is enough evidence to give a lie to this statement. I'm noticing that in this rivalry between the acolytes of these two davedaars, Burhanuddin Saheb is getting a free pass. Suddenly his (and his father's) misdeeds are being whitewashed and he is being presented as a poster boy of virtue and kindness. Let us not forget that he had presided over the cretinisation and Talibanisation of Bohras. Mufaddal is just inheriting his legacy and taking it to ridiculous extremes. We remember how Burhanuddin saheb stood silently and witnessed the beating of Udaipur women and children in Galiyakot. He did not show any qualities of compassion, goodness or mercy.
I too agree on this, people(followers of sts and smb) who are showering anger on ms and his lavish lifestyle have to give a thought that they had not become billionaire in 6 months but it is the brain work and far sightedness of earlier 2 dais especially STS(policy maker) which had bought them here at this stage.

UnhappyBohra
Posts: 607
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:23 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#125

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:30 pm

Humsafar wrote:
Crater Lake wrote: Everything Burhanuddin Moula did was in moderation.
Not true. There is enough evidence to give a lie to this statement. I'm noticing that in this rivalry between the acolytes of these two davedaars, Burhanuddin Saheb is getting a free pass. Suddenly his (and his father's) misdeeds are being whitewashed and he is being presented as a poster boy of virtue and kindness. Let us not forget that he had presided over the cretinisation and Talibanisation of Bohras. Mufaddal is just inheriting his legacy and taking it to ridiculous extremes. We remember how Burhanuddin saheb stood silently and witnessed the beating of Udaipur women and children in Galiyakot. He did not show any qualities of compassion, goodness or mercy.
What was this incident Hamsafar bhai?

saminaben
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:57 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#126

Unread post by saminaben » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:52 pm

Humsafar wrote:
Crater Lake wrote: Everything Burhanuddin Moula did was in moderation.
Not true. There is enough evidence to give a lie to this statement. I'm noticing that in this rivalry between the acolytes of these two davedaars, Burhanuddin Saheb is getting a free pass. Suddenly his (and his father's) misdeeds are being whitewashed and he is being presented as a poster boy of virtue and kindness. Let us not forget that he had presided over the cretinisation and Talibanisation of Bohras. Mufaddal is just inheriting his legacy and taking it to ridiculous extremes. We remember how Burhanuddin saheb stood silently and witnessed the beating of Udaipur women and children in Galiyakot. He did not show any qualities of compassion, goodness or mercy.
So hungry and thirsty we are in our tribe for an idol to worship, even where it seems impossible that our tribe were capable of further idolizing Burhanuddin maula, we most certainly have dug ourselves deeper. All we have is a shovel, and that's all we know how to do - dig ourselves deeper inthe hole.

However, Fret not, bro Humsafer, the more the Kothar tries to pair and show similarities between SMB and SMS, the whole thing will collapse in the hearts of mumineens. SMS will do far more damage to SMB and STS reputation, than They both could ever do in their combined lifetime and rule spanning over a 100 years. Just wait and see. Its been only 6 months, and see how much the powers to be are fretting and fuming and tyring to minimize their losses. There are bridges and ladders and social media and these forums that are already enlightening and Re-tooling us abdes and amtes. Us abdes and amtes are hardly reliant on ITS and Misaal for the "truth from god". Brains have been activated. And these same "activated brains" are what they- the kothar agents, call "Shaitan". And that's why we see so many clumsy repair attempts and programs of Migzal for home science

Lo and behold, we have a new Dushman, Shaitan, Ccording to Kothar: : "your brains and your capacity to exercise judgement and higher order thinking"

Humsafar
Posts: 2573
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#127

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:14 pm

UnhappyBohra wrote: What was this incident Hamsafar bhai?
The incident is related here: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/about_us/jama ... history_1/
It is an excerpt from the excellent book The Bohras by Asghar Ali Engineer. It should be required reading for every Bohra, especially now when there is turmoil and confusion. It is important that Bohras get a handle on their history, their past and see how far they have strayed and where they are headed.

Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#128

Unread post by Adam » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:20 pm

@Crater Lake
Please view Humsafars post on what more others on this Forum think of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA. I absolutely don't agree with it. But it is a reflection of how you conveniently twist his memory to insult Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS.
Both their lives are identical. (Others will agree)
And they are 100% justified according to me. (Others may disagree)


@think_for_yourself
As Burhanuddin Moula's Mazoon of fifty years his word is enough for me.

Well, since Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA performed Nass multiple times, what you are actually saying is:
"KQs words are more important to me than Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin's RA. And I will follow what KQ says and not Syedna RA".

Do you Qutbi's agree with hunting? YES or NO?

think_for_yourself
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:12 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#129

Unread post by think_for_yourself » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:41 pm

If the cold blooded murderers of my father, bring my drugged and ailing father strapped to a chair in public, stick a paper in front of him from which he reads partially and then painfully questions, then those are not his words, they are the murderer's words and I certainly don't believe them. And I don't know what the "Qutbis" think of hunting. We are not ALL one brainwashed lot thinking alike, dressing alike, eating alike. Some of us may hunt dear in hunting season and others may abhor senseless taking of life of endsngered species but may be ok with regulated hunting. Outside your bubble dear sir people still have individual opinions.

truth seeker100
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#130

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:15 am

Adam wrote:@Crater Lake
Please view Humsafars post on what more others on this Forum think of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA. I absolutely don't agree with it. But it is a reflection of how you conveniently twist his memory to insult Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS.
Both their lives are identical. (Others will agree)
And they are 100% justified according to me. (Others may disagree)


@think_for_yourself
As Burhanuddin Moula's Mazoon of fifty years his word is enough for me.

Well, since Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA performed Nass multiple times, what you are actually saying is:
"KQs words are more important to me than Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin's RA. And I will follow what KQ says and not Syedna RA".

Do you Qutbi's agree with hunting? YES or NO?
Adam I have said it before and will say it again burhanuddin never did Nass on your fake fraud muffy. muffy set it up, because burhanuddin couldn't even speak.

zinger
Posts: 2086
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#131

Unread post by zinger » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:36 am

Burhanuddin Maula RA did nass on Muffadal Maula. there is no question or confusion about it.

whether it was forced or voluntary is another discussion.

but given that the only person who could have answered this question is no more, the onus is on you to accept it or reject it. but fact remains. Nuss was done!!!

You can, BTW, ask Anajmi. he to has verified that he could make out the words "Mufaddal bhai, nuss nu taaj, pehnawu"

And yes, for the record, i never believed it until i ACTUALLY heard the words myself 2 or 3 months ago when i kept watching the video over and over again, on the fatemidawat site as well.

What my stand on the current Dai is, is however, my personal opinion and POV

think_for_yourself
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:12 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#132

Unread post by think_for_yourself » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:27 am

zinger wrote:Burhanuddin Maula RA did nass on Muffadal Maula. there is no question or confusion about it.

whether it was forced or voluntary is another discussion.

but given that the only person who could have answered this question is no more, the onus is on you to accept it or reject it. but fact remains. Nuss was done!!!

You can, BTW, ask Anajmi. he to has verified that he could make out the words "Mufaddal bhai, nuss nu taaj, pehnawu"

And yes, for the record, i never believed it until i ACTUALLY heard the words myself 2 or 3 months ago when i kept watching the video over and over again, on the fatemidawat site as well.

What my stand on the current Dai is, is however, my personal opinion and POV
Zinger Bhai to be completely factual, what you actually heard was "Mufaddal Bhai ne nass nu taj" and then a few seconds of...."naam su che?", "su naam che?", "Mohammed naam che?" You never did hear him finish the sentence. Never heard him say "pehnawu chu"/ "nathi pehnavto..." nothing...

truth seeker100
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#133

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:35 am

zinger bhai burhanuddin would never do Nass on such person like muffu who has no qualifications to be a dai. he is just a chor who wants everyone to make rotis and give him money. can you give me five qualifications of a dai that muffy has?

Moiz_Dhaanu
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#134

Unread post by Moiz_Dhaanu » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:53 am

Adam wrote:@Moiz_Dhaanu
Thank you for your lengthy post.
The opinions were hypothetical "what if". No one doubts he was appointed as the Mazoon, just as no one has doubts that is is not true that - every mazoon MUST become the Dai without any Nass.
Agreed, but then in dawat's history , whenever such "fitnat" about Nass has arose, the common man has always(as per protocol- "system" in your lingo) gone to the second highest in command(Mazun) to figure out who is next Dai, and not the son(like Shz MS) or Grandson(Jaffer) . Also, you might be surprised to know that whichever Dais till Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin(RA) we have been following is because of the acceptance of our ancestors who went(agreed) with the decision of the (Mazun) of those times. I dont think you can deny that. (I can provide historical references).
Adam wrote:
What you are mistaken is that:
1) Dawat Books including Daim ul Islam stress on Nass & Tawqeef (informing others).
2) There has NEVER been a Nass in the history of Dawat without Tawqeef (appointing witnesses in Private or Public). KQ's claim that the 7th Dai did so is a very delibarate misunderstanding of the text. 1) The Risala text has been translated incorrectly, and is very clearly written that the witnesses were made in secrecy, but THERE WERE WITNESSES. And other books such as Muntaza confirm that there were witnesses. This will also be confirmed in court, soon.

Ghadeer or No Ghadeer - Following Moulana Ali or not is their choice -BUT- There was a Nass (before and in Ghadeer) & there WERE witnesses.
There were winesses of Moulana Ali giving bayt to "Awwal" in a fully publicised gathering(Everybody has heard this in Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin(RA)) bayan). So then based on your logic about witnesses(and correct system), we all too should be following 1,2,3.
Moulana Ali kept his mutthi(palms) closed while giving him bayt, and this only we know by bayans of Imams and Dais. but for general public like those present in Awwals court that day , everyone must have seen Moulana Ali accepting Awwal as his superior. You need to be practically sitting beside Moula ALi to know that he had kept his hands closed.
Doesn't this remind us all of the scenario played out in the Fatemi masjid grand Nass staged by Shz MS and his coterie. All except those who wanted Shz.MS to be Dai (for their personal gains) were hovering around Aqa Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin(RA). General Public were sitting much far or either seeing it on Screens, to understand whats going on. But as you know , even then ppl around the world were not convinced about that staged drama, and today we have further proof (laid down by the gaffes) of Shz MS, that somethig is not right.
In any case, i assue you are on those ppl who are in the misclaimed awe of the Publis "Staged" Nass, so only allah can show you the truth.I can only Try, by presenting you certain aspects of what has happened.
Adam wrote:This is all according to Dawat practices.
Where as KQ's claim is against that system.
Syedna Mufaddal TUS's Nass happened, and there were witnesses = Correct System.

Apologies for replying n behalf of Alam. This forum is very difficult to keep up, and know who's supposed to answer what. And I don't have time to read every single thread.

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#135

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:56 am

Adam wrote:Since you brought up the Private Jets and trips to Africa.
2- Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA and Syedna Mufaddal's trips to Africa are actually sponsored voluntarily by wealthy Mumineen Businessmen in those areas. It is their wish and happiness to sponsor this. They do it purely out of their own free will. They did it in the past and are continue to do till today.
A sign of moral depravity
Adam wrote:Each time they spend more and the organization keeps improving. Neither you nor me have lost a cent in this. So chill.
Please enlighten how does organization keeps improving by funding ayyashi of Kothari royals ! in fact it is worsening the situation because along with Kothari royals, 2 paisa amils, sheikh and mullahs are also getting spoilt watching their bosses’s luxuries and crave for it, furthermore exploiting and skinning abdes of their monies.
Adam wrote: 1- Dawoodi Bohra faith has NO issues with spending money and pomp. The Quran instructs of it
قل من حرم زينة الله التي اخرج لعباده
And Moulana Ali also guides his followers to live the best life, eat the best food, live like "kings" and leave this world having lived liked kings and getting najaat as well.
سكنوا الدنا بافضل ما سكنت.....
Best Life, means a life of austerity, simplicity and compassion. Hunting, Feet Kissing, Money Laundering, Laanat Baazi, Embezzling and other vices that Kothari Royals indulge into cannot be called best life, instead they are living the life of opulence, extravagance and excesses. Quran, Prophet and Imam Ali denounces such Life of Excess.
More to kothar’s hypocrisy; they talk about Imam Ali eating “sukho - aato” and wearing “Fatela-Kapda” … Talking of previous duaats like Fakhruddin shaheed, Qutbuddin Shaheed, Hasanjee Peer and many more shedding crocodile tears are now quoting Imam Ali to justify their ayyash (haram) lifestyles ! shame !
Adam wrote:2 - Wealth is relative:
A private Jet may seem extravagant to you and me the same way a Mercedes Benz may seem to a homeless person, but not to Warren Buffet or a Russian millionaire who goes to space for a tourist trip.
In the same way a Multi-story residence built by the Ambani's (Reliance) may seem extravagant to you and me, the same way a decent farm house in Thane would seem to a homeless person.
Wareen Buffet, Bill gates, Ambani or any Russian millionnairs are shrewd, calculative, manipulative businessmens, who made money out of their businesses and worked their butts off to get where they are now. Also they are accountable of their wealth to government, shareholders and others stakeholders. They also pay taxes and are liable to be sued over fraudulent acts. They do not shout or cry infallibility !
Adam wrote:So according to your logic, isn't KQ also living extravagantly when there are homeless people around him? Instead, he should sell his property in Thane and live in a slum in Juhu. He must sell his Mercedes Benz and travel by foot, bus or in the most extreme case, by Taxi.
Exactly ! That is what previous duaats worth their merit, character and position did, go and look at the houses of previous duaats, one can realize the simplicity they lived with. Many duaats houses have even perished, whereas Kothari royals have established “maula-no-bunglows” at almost every city.
More to kothar’s hypocrisy; they talk about Fakhruddin Shaheed’s travels to remote villages of waagar to spread islam causing blisters in his feet even though he hailed from princely family.
Adam wrote:3 - Each time calls for appropriate actions. Rasulullah and Moulana Ali's policies were best according to their times. Sulaiman & Yusuf Nabi's glory was according to their times. Fatimid Imams glory was according to their times. Every deed has a right place and a time.
According to this idiotic philosophy, kothar must stop branding itself as “hussain-na-dai” or “Imam Ali-na-Dai” or “Rasullullah-na-dai”

Moiz_Dhaanu
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#136

Unread post by Moiz_Dhaanu » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:09 am

zinger wrote:Burhanuddin Maula RA did nass on Muffadal Maula. ......
whether it was forced or voluntary is another discussion.
I respect this particular statement of yours, Inshaalah we will be shown the right path by allah, but for this we have to keep our minds open, and not get overwhelmed by constant barrage of Hate spewing out of kothar against the other side.
Can we even imagine, what would be our plight when it became evident that nass was forced. How would we show our faces to Imam if we showered our choicest of Laanat on his true Dai.
It is because of the infinite love we all have for Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin(RA) that even though our logical part of the mind keeps on telling us that something is not right. We keep following the crowd and dont give a damn for a second opionion.

Ozdundee
Posts: 889
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#137

Unread post by Ozdundee » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:30 am

Ozdundee wrote:
Ozdundee wrote:Can someone reliable explain what is SKQ position on these matters:

1. SMB sporting desire to hunt wildlife
2. Cursing or signalling cursing of the Khalifas during sermon
3. People his followers performing sajada to him,
4. His position on fgm being practised in western countries
5. Being transparent and accountable on the wajebat that he has instructed that he should be recipient, will he show where the money will be used.
6. Does he actually communicate with the Imam Zaman and can he explain how?
7. Does he consider himself as Ilah Ardh, Haqiqi Kaba, as does SMS as did SMB
8. Does he consider dreams as serious matters of public discussions.
9. Does he consider himself immortal, he has not appointed a successor in public, what happens if the most unexpected happens.

There is more doctrine questions that will come up ?
I have not had one question answered ! Why ? Yet people associated with SKQ do come and blog and comment. What is there to fear if you are confident that you are propagating Allah's message .

If you think the above rituals are acceptable as per the doctrine then I would have grave concerns . We would have not really reformed spiritually ...our centre of gravity must be Islam .
Still no response...silence is consent ?

i close the case that if SKQ condoned everything SMB did whether society judged it right or wrong. If that is the case how can SKQ claim to be the rightful Diai to lead Bohras on the right path of Islam. Whether it is popular or not he needs to make a stand as Imam Husain AS did on principles. As a reformist not a member of PDB he has yet to convince me he is my Islamic leader first and then the son of STS or brother of SMB, many don't care if he is related or a clever person. SKQ may be learned, compassionate and have many good qualities of a pious Muslim, but he cannot cover up the gross injustices and wrongs of the past and claim elgibility. If he does speak out and right the wrongs may be I will reconsider my position, until then follow the Perfect Book.

Meanwhile SMS is NOT or NEVER going to be my leader until he passes the credibility and capability test too. He has to seek forgiveness for so many ills.

And those who naively think SMB would not do a nass on any of his son and pass on the power to his step brother however qualified he is, is foolishly, day dreaming. It is very likely SMB betrayed SKQ and STS and passed on the reigns to his son SMS. However it is such an emotionally difficult fact for both Muffy and Qutbi Bohras to contemplate, because it destroys the core of their faith, which is completely based on glorified image of SMB. SKQ cannot publicly say so because his followers are foremost loyal to SMB first , while on the other side SMS is getting a free ride by just claiming to be the son of a Diai and rightful heir and his brothers endorse him. Bohras are mentally tuned to acceptance via inheritance of dawaat from father to son. SKQ is spoiling the smooth transition !
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 2 Surah Baqarah verse 170-171: When it is said to them, "Follow the Commands that Allah has sent down", they reply, "We will follow only what we found our forefathers practicing." Well, will they go on following their forefathers even though they did not use common sense and did not find the Right Way! The mental condition of those who rejected the way of Allah may be likened to that of the cattle whom the shepherd calls but they hear nothing except the sound of shouts and cries. They are deaf, they are dumb, they are blind; therefore they do not understand anything.
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 7 Surah Al Aaraf verse173-174: This We did lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were unaware of this thing." Or lest you should say, "Our forefathers started the practice of 'shirk' before us and we were born after them to their descendants. Do You, then, punish us for the sin that was committed by the wrong-doers?" Behold, this is how We make Our Signs clear, so that these people may return to Us.
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 21 Surah Anbiyaa verse 52-54: Recall to mind the occasion when Ibrahim said to his father and his people, "What are these images to which you are so devoted?" They replied, "We found our forefathers worshipping them." Ibrahim said, "You have gone astray and so had your forefathers manifestly deviated from the Right Way."
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 26 Surah Shuaraa verse 69-82: And tell them the story of Ibrahim, when he asked his father and his people: "What are these things that you worship?" They answered, "These are idols which we worship and we serve them devotedly." Ibrahim asked, "Do they hear you when you call on them? Or do they bring any good or harm to you?" They replied, "No, but we have found our elders doing the same." At this, Ibrahim said, "Have you ever seen with open eyes the things which you and your elders have been worshipping? They are all enemies to me, except the One Lord of the Worlds, Who created me, then He it is Who guides me, Who gives me food and drink, and Who gives me health when I am ill, Who will cause me to die and then will give me life again, and of Whom I expect that He will forgive me my errors on the Day of Judgment."
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 31 Surah Luqman verse 21: And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has sent down", they say, "We shall only follow that upon which we found our forefathers." What! Will they still be following them even if Shaitaan had been calling them to the raging Fire?
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 34 Surah Saba verse 43: When Our clear Revelations are recited to these people, they say, "This person only wants to turn you away from those deities whom your forefathers have been worshipping."
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 43 Surah Zukhruf verse 22-25: Nay! But they say, "We found our forefathers on a way and we are only walking in their footsteps." Even so, whenever before you We sent a warner to a habitation, its people of means said, "We have found our forefathers on a way and we are only following in their footsteps." Every Prophet asked them, "Will you still go on following the same old way even if I guide you to a more right way than that you found your forefathers following?" They replied, "We disbelieve the religion with which you have been sent." Consequently, We took vengeance on them. Just consider what was the end of those who denied.

Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#138

Unread post by Adam » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:55 pm

Since this is a Qutbi topic. I will answer those who claim to be Qutbi Bohras. Because it's a waste of time to debate with others as these topics can go on forever.

@think_for_yourself
And I don't know what the "Qutbis" think of hunting. We are not ALL one brainwashed lot thinking alike, dressing alike, eating alike. Some of us may hunt dear in hunting season and others may abhor senseless taking of life of endsngered species but may be ok with regulated hunting.

- Dressing Alike: It was Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA who started the tradition of Libaas al Anwar (Saya Kurta / Rida). Aren't you supposed to follow him?
- About hunting. Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA and Khuzaima Qutbuddin used to go hunting. Aren't you supposed to follow them and accept it?

Please confirm if you are a Qutbi Bohra or follower of Khuzaima Qutbuddin. If you are not, then I don't need to continue.

@Zinger Bhai
Correction. The audible words are "Mufaddal Bhai ne Nass nu Taaj".
That still means the same thing. But just correcting.
Khuzaima's name not heard anywhere.

@Moiz_Dhaanu
Agreed, but then in dawat's history , whenever such "fitnat" about Nass has arose, the common man has always(as per protocol- "system" in your lingo) gone to the second highest in command(Mazun) to figure out who is next Dai,

INCORRECT.

Throughout Dawats history, the Saheb al Zaman (Imam or Dai) has informed the people or his witnesses who his Mansoos is.
No one else has declared the Mansoos on their own without any instructions, witnesses or evidence fro the Saheb. Not even the Mansoos himself. He must be appointed by his predecessor. If the Mazoon of the time informed the people that X was the Mansoos. That also means that Mazoon was the WITNESS of the Nass on someone else. It was his responsibility to inform the people of his predecessors choice. Then that refutes KQ's theory about not having any witnesses.

On the contrary, if you claim to have any evidence to this fact, please provide it. So that we can evaluate.

There were winesses of Moulana Ali giving bayt to "Awwal" in a fully publicised gathering(Everybody has heard this in Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin(RA)) bayan). So then based on your logic about witnesses(and correct system), we all too should be following 1,2,3.

NO.
1. Moulana Ali did not "give Bay'at" to Awwal. He closed his hand. That means he DID NOT give Bay'at, no matter what anyone thinks of that gesture.
2. Moulana Ali already had Nass from Rasulullah prior to that, on multiple occassions, with numerous witnesses. That is the key.
3. It is not "based on MY logic about witnesses". It is based on Dawoodi Bohra texts and beliefs that witnesses should be appointed.

NOW.
Please think about the following for a second. Remove all hatred, all names and sides from your head just for a bit.

If a Dai and his Mansoos wrere aware that 99.99% of their closest companions, hudood, family and their followers hated the Mansoos and were conspiring against his life. And despite ALL this, if he still intended to appoint him as the chosen Mansoos, the only logical thing to do would be to:
- Gather the few trusted people loyal to his Mansoos and do Nass on the Mansoos, and inform them of his wishes. (As Rasulullah did in Mecca on Moulana Ali)
- Inform the others who hate his Mansoos (privately or publicly) and make them attest that they have heard or witnesses this appointment. This evidence could be used against them should they default. (As Rasulullah did. He prepared a document and made 10s of people sign on it, and then handed it over to Moulana Ali - Ref Sharh al Akhbar)
- Prepare some evidence. A document, an Audio, a video to show to the people of his appointment. If he feared for his or his Mansoos's life, he could have instructed to make this evidence public after his death.

KQ doesn't have anything!

IF As KQ claims, 99.99% of the people hated him in Syedna's RA time. Why on earth would they believe him after his death? Especially after Syedna RA publicly appointed someone else, with evidence to prove it!
Even If there wasn't another public appointment, or any witnesses or any other evidence from the other side. If they genuinely hated KQ, they still wouldn't have followed him! They would have remained lost and without a leader, and allow their beliefs of all the Nass till date to come crashing down.

Think about it. Just a bit of common sense wont hurt.

On what basis should anyone accept KQ as their Dai? ZERO.

SKQ Fan
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:51 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#139

Unread post by SKQ Fan » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:14 pm

Brother Adam

What a fallacious and senseless post (IF As KQ claims, 99.99% of the people hated him in Syedna's RA time) whoever told you that ? It was only Y Najmudin and his brothers who were blinded by greed and jealousy on Sayedna Qutuddin being appointed mazoon .As a matter of fact 99.5% of the general Bohra population had never even heard of your imposter, globe trotter, roti king, hunter Dai,( that is before he forced himself on us as a self appointed mansoos ) ,they loved and respected their mazoon .You should have seen the crowds waiting to do deedar on Friday afternoons when he used to visit Raudat Taherq
I apologise if I have hurt your sentiments by calling you dai names you may not like.
We followers of the true dai Syedna Qutbuddin try to keep the debates civil and always refer to your dai as Muffadal Bhai Saheb, what caused me to do this is by you referring to Sayedna Qutbuddin as a Dawedar and by name

Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#140

Unread post by Adam » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:17 pm

@SKQ Fan
Apologies for the 99.99% number.
Choose any percentage you wish. The above post can remain the same.
Thanks

There's nothing wrong with the word "Dawedaar". It just means a person who claims to be the Dai - because according to us, that's what he is.
Thank you for being civil. I appreciate it.
You can also refer to Abu Bakr as Hazrat Abu Bakr while you're at it.


alam
Posts: 713
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#141

Unread post by alam » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:11 pm

Adam wrote:@SKQ Fan
Apologies for the 99.99% number.
Choose any percentage you wish. The above post can remain the same.


Adam, I don't care about labels such as Qutbi, Mufadddali, reformist etc. we are all Dawoodi Bohras. Our concerns are as humanbeings belonging to the Dawoodi Bohra community.

Majority of the Bohras don't even know Mazoon Saheb during his tenure as Mazoon. Majority of the Bohras had no issue with internal politics within the Syednas family. Only after wafaat, it became an issue of their imaan because it was the 2nd in command who raised the issue. . All they know is they gave misaaq to Maazoon Saheb. , andj after wafaat, Mazoon Saheb step up and claim about private Nass. So now, with burhanuddins Maulas stroke, Nass declaration on SMS, etc, etc. vast majority of people don't have hatred in their hearts. Vast majority of people are tired of the hatred among the upper echelons of Syednas family, the laanats erc, and Kothar supported/condoned social boycott and excommunication. Vast majority of people are shaken, and in turmoil, even though they publicly "go with the massess". They are in turmoil because they are In touch with ground reality MINUS THE POLITICS, the ground reality being their rojas, Namaaz, silat, sense of community, family etc.

Adam, Common sense is not always so black and white as you make it out to be, nor as black and white as SKQ side might make it out to be. Common sense is also not clouded with political alliances and systematic cover ups. Sooner or later people begin to sense something's off, even if they dont have the grit of solid evidence or proof of brainwashing. They have common sense because they are In touch with the ground reality of everyday suffering and turmoil at the hands of the establishment.

Nass issue is not the only nor main issue discussed here. Majority of Mumineen are fed up with dadaagri from local jamaats they belong to. As simple as that. Majority of Mumineen are fed up with hatred and Laanats happening in masjids,even when they do accept SMS as the Dai. So your conclusion of "genuine hatred toward KQ" is more a reflection of the rhetoric and narrative spread by a very small .01% of the bohra congregation who happen to have the power and resources to promote any propaganda, schemes, and brainwashing tools they desire. The vast majority of the common Mumin uses their common sense to live their lives simply, without much of a fluff. Unfortunately, it is the ordinary Mumin who is victimized the most and have lost their voice.

So Adam, I request you to occasionally get off your high horse of framing this exclusively as a Nass dispute, which I agree, is largely a trigger, for the broader issues of rampant abuses in our community.

Even your claiming 99% (which later you retracted readily) of people hating maazoon Saheb is an example of careless, arbitrary accusations and assumptions that the ordinary Mumin gave no grit power to standup to and confront.

Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#142

Unread post by Adam » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:19 pm

The Nass issue is important for followers of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA and after him SYedna Mufaddal TUS and followers of Khuzaima Qutbuddin.
Because our faith is based on the Haq na Saheb.

For everyone else (Progressives). It isn't important.

SBM
Posts: 6467
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#143

Unread post by SBM » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:08 pm

For everyone else (Progressives). It isn't important.
because we are smart and free :mrgreen:
Adam
I asked you a question on a special thread Please do opine on that

You can run but can't hide---Ronald Regan

alam
Posts: 713
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#144

Unread post by alam » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:45 pm

Adam
You skirt real and logical discussions under the guise of labelling groups as progressive or qutbi, or whatever suits and reiforces your own narrow vision at the moment. If Haq is an important issue for you, you would not be skirting the discussion and arbitrarily selecting your audience. Haq is only important issue for you to the degree that the discussion focuses on EXTREMELY Polarized form of Ardent supporters of SMS or SKQ.

You seem to be simply avoiding and using another excuse to address the points raised by me and others. Speciically, the whole point was your sweeping assumption that majority hated Mazoon Saheb in SMB lifetime, therefore they would not accept him as mansoos anyway. To your credit, you later retracted your 99.99% assumption to "choose any percentage you wish". If you were not confronted on this faux pas on a public forum, you likely would go on with your own narrow-minded and reckless accusation and assumption.

Which is the central point anyway - that Kothar is bent on demonizing and spreading hatred in a reckless, careless and arbitrary way. You seem to have demonstrated it very elegantly. Take away lesson for all: Confront and stand up to irresponsible accusations and statements in your local jamaats.

Adam, Max, etc, You don't get it, that most people who have accepted SMS are very disturbed and in turmoil due to the vicious demonisation of the mazoon to whom they gave misaq to. With your attitude you are only further alienating those whom you think you are defending. You can't expect the ordinary mumin, who now has far more common sense than you assume them to have, to cast aside the issues raised here as simply "progressive" or simply "reformist" or simply "Qutbi". The issues raised are issues of truth/haq, and there is more to haq than mere labeling of groups, regardless of what you say.

SBM
Posts: 6467
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#145

Unread post by SBM » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:56 pm

Br Alam
Unfortunately Adam will not talk to me or engae with me since I have not committed my life and wealth of either of them
But you raised very valid points, Many people are coming out of the closet and getting courage to confront this narrow minded people example is resignation letter of Anwer Bodbhal who was an ardent Abde and finally decided enough is enough
Remember the dialogue from movie Network " I Had Enough and I can't take it anymore" that is what is slowly spreading in the followers of SMS

Crater Lake
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#146

Unread post by Crater Lake » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:00 pm

Adam wrote:

On what basis should anyone accept KQ as their Dai? ZERO.
Adam Bhai there is only one basis on which we accept that nass was done of Syedna Qutbuddin TUS. He says it was. The merits (or lack of) of all the cooked up and coerced audio/video have been discussed ad nauseum. We don't accept them. Move on. Like I told you in the PM. Feel free to follow your clown and leave us alone.

AmmarHussaini
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:37 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#147

Unread post by AmmarHussaini » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:41 pm

mufaddali and qutbis are funny, after all both follows self proclaimed dais who are internally one and the same.

both wants importance and wants to install fear in heart of their follower so they can live lavish life all their life.

both wants sajdas and both wants complete submission, while both denies to prove any connection with Imam.

until any one of them prove connection with Imam none is worth your misaaq.

let them bring dalil to be true Imam dai.

till then its all cat and dog show.

ps - if rasullah (s) can bring dalil to be true prophet why these dais cant bring any dalil? why follow them blindly?

zinger
Posts: 2086
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#148

Unread post by zinger » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:24 am

@ adam bhai and think for yourself....

let me view the video once again. if both of you say the same thing, then perhaps i am mistaken, although i think i head the words nuss nu taaj "pehnawu", but nonetheless, let me see it again

truth seeker100
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#149

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:42 am

Adam bhai your stupidity is hilarious. just goes to show how blind and brainless the followers of muffy are.

Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Questions for Team SKQ

#150

Unread post by Adam » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:55 am

Crater Lake wrote:
Adam wrote:
On what basis should anyone accept KQ as their Dai? ZERO.
Adam Bhai there is only one basis on which we accept that nass was done of Syedna Qutbuddin TUS. He says it was. The merits (or lack of) of all the cooked up and coerced audio/video have been discussed ad nauseum. We don't accept them. Move on. Like I told you in the PM. Feel free to follow your clown and leave us alone.
So no one in the future should listen to the Dai instead?
So you're saying that from now on. Any Mazoon can proclaim himself as the Dai? Because he's always right?
Why didn't the Imams or the Dais of the past appoint themselves?
Shall we just disregard the whole concept of Nass and Tawqeef (informing others) - As prescribed in Fatemi Books?

If Syedna RA knew that there were certain people against his Mansoos, the LEAST he could do was inform someone other than the Mansoos or prepare some evidence.
Rasulullah says that:
It is the responsibility of a Muslim not to sleep without his Wasiyat written under his pillow. Even for normal inheritance there must be evidence and witnesses. Are you saying that Syedna RA didn't carry out his basic responsibilities as a Dai? By doing this he left everything in doubt?

He didn't He appointed his Mansoos Syedna Mufaddal TUS multiple times.
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