Shirk of Abde Bohras and Muslim world

[Nafisa]

The best way to protect Bohras from Shirk is to inform Muslim world what Dawoodi Bohra administration (the Kothar) teach and preach. Found Dawoodi Bohra Dai and his army in white dress, white cap, beard and Tasbeeh and Arabic names of occasions, Muslim majority consider them staunch followers of Islam. Muslim world is unaware with the Mushrik creed Aqaid of Abde Bohras, as they believe Syedna =Khuda.
I hope some competent should draft a letter on the Mushrik creed of renegade Dawoodi Bohras (the Kothar) and post it on forum, for further addition. Final draft should be post to media/Muslim Ulama and scholars worldwide, so they should see the ugly face of bohra clergy and what is going on under instruction of Mufaddal Saifuddin, Dai number 53.

[wise_guy]

The best way to protect Bohras from Shirk is to inform Muslim world what Dawoodi Bohra administration teach and preach. Found Dawoodi Bohra Dai and his army in white dress, white cap, beard and Tasbeeh and Arabic names of occasions, Muslim majority consider them staunch followers of Islam. Muslim world is unaware with the Mushrik creed Aqaid of Bohras, as they believe Syedna =Khuda.
I hope some competent should draft a letter on the Mushrik creed of renegade Dawoodi Bohras and post it on forum, for further addition. Final draft should be post to media/Muslim Ulama and scholars worldwide, so they should see the ugly face of bohra clergy and what is going on under instruction of Mufaddal Saifuddin, Dai number 53.

I strongly oppose your views here... Your suggestion will not do anything as if the Sheikhs of Saudis or Muslims of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigera etc etc are on the right path.. What do you think we should do? Go seek help from the retarded Ulema of Deoband or go to Al-Qaeda/Taliban (The true bearers of Islamic Faith who justify killing of non muslims) to solve this problem ? They are more astray than the Bohras.

Other Muslims just don't do sajda, etc... but they are also astray.. Go see any normal muslim (Miyabhai as they are called in India)... and you will know their mindset... majority of them have a fundamentalist mindset, live in Ghettos, doing labour jobs, not interested in education whatsoever, involved in underworld/anti social activities.. the list is long...

[zinger]

Nafisa ben, i guess you forgot that you are a Bohra too.

I guess you also forgot how Bohras are being targetted in Pakistan.

So if your intention is to have the community targetted for attack, then i suggest you make yourself competent enough to draft the letter.

since you hate us, and by default, yourself so much, why not just leave???

Most people here talk about reforming. you on the other hand are talking about calling trouble on to the community.

I think a change in attitude where you work towards improving things within the community rather than calling trouble upon it would help a lot

[zinger]

The best way to protect Bohras from Shirk is to inform Muslim world what Dawoodi Bohra administration teach and preach. Found Dawoodi Bohra Dai and his army in white dress, white cap, beard and Tasbeeh and Arabic names of occasions, Muslim majority consider them staunch followers of Islam. Muslim world is unaware with the Mushrik creed Aqaid of Bohras, as they believe Syedna =Khuda.
I hope some competent should draft a letter on the Mushrik creed of renegade Dawoodi Bohras and post it on forum, for further addition. Final draft should be post to media/Muslim Ulama and scholars worldwide, so they should see the ugly face of bohra clergy and what is going on under instruction of Mufaddal Saifuddin, Dai number 53.

I strongly oppose your views here... Your suggestion will not do anything as if the Sheikhs of Saudis or Muslims of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigera etc etc are on the right path.. What do you think we should do? Go seek help from the retarded Ulema of Deoband or go to Al-Qaeda/Taliban (The true bearers of Islamic Faith who justify killing of non muslims) to solve this problem ? They are more astray than the Bohras.

Other Muslims just don't do sajda, etc... but they are also astray.. Go see any normal muslim (Miyabhai as they are called in India)... and you will know their mindset... majority of them have a fundamentalist mindset, live in Ghettos, doing labour jobs, not interested in education whatsoever, involved in underworld/anti social activities.. the list is long...

Hi Wise-Guy, her post has pinched me a lot too. but one small request, and this is something that i actually learnt from this site, is respect for a fellow-Muslim.
one of the things i stopped doing is calling a Sunni Muslim as a miyabhai. While i agree you may not view it as being derogatory, fact of the matter is that IT IS a derogatory term.

Also, while i agree that there is wrong in our community, pulling another down by saying that they are underworld, anti-social etc is not nice. we cannot make oursleves look better by making someone else look ugly

nafisa ben is probably extremely frustrated right now, she will hopefully cool down over time

Regards
Z

[wise_guy]

The Subject of the post is Shirk of Bohras... I just wanted to point out that other muslim sects/communities are no saint either... She brought the topic of outsiders here of 'reporting to the Muslim world' etc...

Hi Wise-Guy, her post has pinched me a lot too. but one small request, and this is something that i actually learnt from this site, is respect for a fellow-Muslim.
one of the things i stopped doing is calling a Sunni Muslim as a miyabhai. While i agree you may not view it as being derogatory, fact of the matter is that IT IS a derogatory term.

Also, while i agree that there is wrong in our community, pulling another down by saying that they are underworld, anti-social etc is not nice. we cannot make oursleves look better by making someone else look ugly

nafisa ben is probably extremely frustrated right now, she will hopefully cool down over time

Regards
Z

[think]

The day we bohra's declare that there is none better than the other bohra , that mullahs, amil's , sheikh.s, ,bhaisahebs, zadas are all equal fellow human beings is when the bohra religion will be true islam, until then we should be prepared to remain as slaves of the zadas and their children and hopefully we can visualize and understand the meaning of the word slave which is so commonly used in the bohra voccabulary i.e. abde. and our misaak and marraige vows also asks of us as such.

[shabbir4u]

But who is Nafisa?

[seeker110]

Air-hostess ni kaki ma.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Syedna=Khuda? I don't think that is the Bohri creed at all, at least I haven't heard this from anyone. The Bohri do put Aqa on a pedestal which is way too high, but not that high.

The truth is that nobody can help our community from the outside. If we want reform, it must come from within.

[anajmi]

The dawoodi bohra creed is Syedna = khuda. An abde syedna bohra is knowledgeable enough to know not to agree to this directly, but it is very easy to get the truth out of them with clever games. A few months back I had asked a couple of questions on this forum when it was overwhelmed by abdes. These were the two questions.

Do you believe that you can enter Jannah solely with the grace of Allah almighty, without any help from your Syedna?

Will Allah be able overrule the Dai on the day of judgment?

The answer to number 1, as expected from abdes was "NO". Allah Almighty's mercy is not enough to get you into jannah. You need permission from Syedna. Without permission from Syedna, even Allah is powerless to allow you entry into jannah. Hence Syedna = Khuda or Syedna > Khuda.

The answer to number 2 was, again as expected, "NO". The abdes had this to say - Whatever Allah wills is the will of Dai,,And whatever Dai wills is the will of Allah.......

Hence Syedna = khuda and hence abde syedna = mushrik.

[Grayson]

A well asked question that highlights how low Deen has descended for the fanatics. The lack of belief in Tawheed, is disconcerting, and I agree with your evaluation in attributing such thoughts to Abde Syedna's.

But I could say and think with atleast some assurance, that a good chunk of people (although not the majority) aren't fanatic enough to believe in those answers, despite belonging to this specific faith. There's no excuse for considering anyone's words over Allahs.

Believing in an Imam and his Dai doesn't mean they're the greatest authority ever. According to our beliefs, that doesn't mean they're not any sort of authority either. They're our leaders and we need to respect their position as such, not worship them for it and leave them unquestioned.

[seeker110]

Why wont the Dai set the record straight for the fanatics?

[Qutbi-Hero]

The dawoodi bohra creed is Syedna = khuda. An abde syedna bohra is knowledgeable enough to know not to agree to this directly, but it is very easy to get the truth out of them with clever games. A few months back I had asked a couple of questions on this forum when it was overwhelmed by abdes. These were the two questions.

Do you believe that you can enter Jannah solely with the grace of Allah almighty, without any help from your Syedna?

Will Allah be able overrule the Dai on the day of judgment?

The answer to number 1, as expected from abdes was "NO". Allah Almighty's mercy is not enough to get you into jannah. You need permission from Syedna. Without permission from Syedna, even Allah is powerless to allow you entry into jannah. Hence Syedna = Khuda or Syedna > Khuda.

The answer to number 2 was, again as expected, "NO". The abdes had this to say - Whatever Allah wills is the will of Dai,,And whatever Dai wills is the will of Allah.......

Hence Syedna = khuda and hence abde syedna = mushrik.

Two very silly questions with even sillier answers. People with limited education will be easily confused by such queries, so will give you the response you require to satisfy your hatred for them.

In reality, they are just saying Syedna=Interceder. Intercession is one of the fundamental beliefs of Shia theology so this cannot be argued. What can be debated is whether a Dai has the necessary divine 'rank' as this means equivalence to the Imams.

[seeker110]

Divine rank? This Dai doesn't even have basic education.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Divine rank? This Dai doesn't even have basic education.

In what way do you mean? That he doesn't have basic Islamic knowledge?

[seeker110]

As instructed in the holy Quran, read, understand, practice and then teach. Brakes are put on after read. Either he understands but does not want the abdes to understand, or he doesn't understand himself. Any video to prove me wrong?

[badrijanab]

As instructed in the holy Quran, read, understand, practice and then teach. Brakes are put on after read. Either he understands but does not want the abdes to understand, or he doesn't understand himself. Any video to prove me wrong?

How will you assure that you have understood the way that Allah wanted?

[seeker110]

When Allah orders, you obey. It will come to you. Otherwise you will end up understanding someone else's version. This book is for ALL means all of us. Would be meaningless if it was meant for few. I try with small stuff (small suras). Also we all develop our own liking to stuff we are interested, anyway. Read the meaning of things you say in namaz. Boy, I miss Br Abbas Aurangabadi, he was my Guru in my childhood. He spent a good amount of time explaining wazoo and I still enjoy the things that stuck.

[anajmi]

Two very silly questions with even sillier answers. People with limited education will be easily confused by such queries, so will give you the response you require to satisfy your hatred for them.

Limited education is what the Syedna is banking upon. Even someone with a little more education than the abdes will be able to figure these out.

Intercession is one of the fundamental beliefs of Shia theology so this cannot be argued.

This displays your limited education. No wonder Syedna has you under his thumb after projecting himself as your intercessor!!

What can be debated is whether a Dai has the necessary divine 'rank' as this means equivalence to the Imams.

So according to you, the Imam is divine?

[badrijanab]

When Allah orders, you obey. It will come to you. Otherwise you will end up understanding someone else's version. This book is for ALL means all of us. Would be meaningless if it was meant for few. I try with small stuff (small suras). Also we all develop our own liking to stuff we are interested, anyway. Read the meaning of things you say in namaz. Boy, I miss Br Abbas Aurangabadi, he was my Guru in my childhood. He spent a good amount of time explaining wazoo and I still enjoy the things that stuck.

Use prefix "Shaheed" with name of respected Janab Abbas Aurangabadi sahib. May Allah bestow afzalul zaza and kher to his rooh & rihiyaat.

Allah says, he is Mola of only those who tendered Iman and did good deeds, Mola of balance all is their 'Tagooth'; Allah is not their Mola. Quran is not for all, it is for believers.

Should you read books meant for pursuing MBBS degree or books meant for doctorate level in Economics - will Government or anyone let you to practice profession of Doctor or Economist?!!! You can purchase book but cannot understand it by reading it without guide/authorize person to teach. Further, you still cannot practice unless the authority (university/college) approve you/grants degree or license. In same way you can get Quran from book shop and read but you cannot correctly and completely understand the subject until guided by authorized person.

You try with small stuff or big, how will you DECIDE if your version of understanding is correct or not?????? Have Allah commanded you to use your "rai" or "qayas" to take any subjective religious decision?!! You have to understand Quran as the authorized person (Aayat 4:59) commands by the will of Allah: Mohammed, Ali , Hasan, Hussain, ...Imam Tayyeb a.s. and their authorized persons.

[Grayson]

badrijanab,

In the future when you mention an Aayat in your arguments, can you also provide it in it's entirety instead of just referencing the Sura and Aayat numbers? It makes it easier to refer to. Thanks.

[anajmi]

Should you read books meant for pursuing MBBS degree or books meant for doctorate level in Economics - will Government or anyone let you to practice profession of Doctor or Economist?!!! You can purchase book but cannot understand it by reading it without guide/authorize person to teach.

I have heard this example given by every single mullah out there. Not just shia mullah but even sunni mullas give this exact same argument. And I do not agree with it.

Consider that you want to become a doctor. You purchased all the books, you paid the fees to the university, then at the beginning of the school year, you reach the class and find out that the teacher who was supposed to make you a doctor has gone into hiding and appointed a peon in his place. The teacher who went into hiding is the Imam and the peon he appointed is badrijanab!!

Now, would you prefer to learn from the peon or from the books that you purchased???

[anajmi]

Here is another reason why this analogy is idiotic. Most people want to study the Quran not to become Mullahs and perform Nikaah and burial, but to understand their own religion, understand what it is that God is telling them. Not many people want to read the Quran to figure out how to perform a nikaah. Similarly, if I am not interested in performing a brain surgery, why do I need to go to a class? I just want to understand how a brain functions. All I need is a book. I don't need to do MBBS for that!!

[seeker110]

Thousand apologies for not writing the word shaheed.

[badrijanab]

Should you read books meant for pursuing MBBS degree or books meant for doctorate level in Economics - will Government or anyone let you to practice profession of Doctor or Economist?!!! You can purchase book but cannot understand it by reading it without guide/authorize person to teach.

I have heard this example given by every single mullah out there. Not just shia mullah but even sunni mullas give this exact same argument. And I do not agree with it.

Consider that you want to become a doctor. You purchased all the books, you paid the fees to the university, then at the beginning of the school year, you reach the class and find out that the teacher who was supposed to make you a doctor has gone into hiding and appointed a peon in his place. The teacher who went into hiding is the Imam and the peon he appointed is badrijanab!!

Now, would you prefer to learn from the peon or from the books that you purchased???

Above is UNREAL and UNTRUE situation in your corrupted mind. Your imagination cannot happen in any university, a teacher appointed will deliver what he is asked by the management of that college. To begin, teacher do not have any authority to appoint someone including peon in his place except if dictated by the management of college, then that peon become the authorized person appointed by the management of that college and his teaching responsibility is that of college management.

Prophet taught the introductory (Kindergarten) course, the 1st class was taught by Mola Ali a.s., the 2nd class by Imam Hasan a.s., .... till the year 1200AD world has sufficiently mastered.... to further carry on sub-ordinate (2nd tier / Dai) of teacher (Imam) was appointed by college management (Allah).. and at point of time (year 1900 AD) college management have even stopped the 2nd tier of teachers.... in present time the AUTHORIZED LITERATURE (Fatimi Dawat) is available along with TOXIC (adulterated and unauthorized literature by all others) so college management (Allah) has made facility of library available where one can have access to authorized literature to read and if something one cannot understand then college management have provided free lancers (nek/good mumin) who can be approached, they are not authorized to give their personal "rai" or "qayas" (opinions) but they can point answers to questions asked in the authorized literature. So though we in present time is far from 'gangotri' (Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w.) however (for Fatimi Dawat followers) the water is filled at Gangotri in good bottle, preserved & passed it to Ali, to Imam Hasan.... to those authorized books - so we Bohra Mumin drink the very water that was originated at the Gangotri which is ELIXIR for roohani health of mumineen. Where else for others their water though originated from Gangotri but got adulterated and polluted in the way by Abbasi / Ummaiyaad/etc and now in current time what they are having is the water of 'Hooghli River' extremely toxic for roohani health of all other sects.

[ghulam muhammed]

Prophet taught the introductory (Kindergarten) course, the 1st class was taught by Mola Ali a.s., the 2nd class by Imam Hasan a.s., .... till the year 1200AD world has sufficiently mastered.... to further carry on sub-ordinate (2nd tier / Dai) of teacher (Imam) was appointed by college management (Allah).. and at point of time (year 1900 AD) college management have even stopped the 2nd tier of teachers....

But I was under the impression that Allah (swt) told Prophet (s.a.w.) that I (swt) have COMPLETED my Deen with you !!

[ghulam muhammed]

so we Bohra Mumin drink the very water that was originated at the Gangotri which is ELIXIR for roohani health of mumineen. Where else for others their water though originated from Gangotri but got adulterated and polluted in the way by Abbasi / Ummaiyaad/etc and now in current time what they are having is the water of 'Hooghli River' extremely toxic for roohani health of all other sects.

What is "Hooghly" for you is "Gangotri" for the vast majority and vice versa.

[badrijanab]

Prophet taught the introductory (Kindergarten) course, the 1st class was taught by Mola Ali a.s., the 2nd class by Imam Hasan a.s., .... till the year 1200AD world has sufficiently mastered.... to further carry on sub-ordinate (2nd tier / Dai) of teacher (Imam) was appointed by college management (Allah).. and at point of time (year 1900 AD) college management have even stopped the 2nd tier of teachers....

But I was under the impression that Allah (swt) told Prophet (s.a.w.) that I (swt) have COMPLETED my Deen with you !!

GM bhai,

It means the deen is complete - but does that also mean that world will understand instantly everything in reference to deen? Courses and books are there but we require AUTHORIZED teachers to teach the same in periods. Does a kindergarten kid is taught books meant for Nuclear Science? Islam was newly introduced for many the then people... we know not all who take admission in kindergarten studies till matriculation, neither all who passes matriculation goes till graduation.... So Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. has introduced the basic (kindergarten), those who want to attend to next class their teacher is Mola Ali a.s..... So deen (course) is complete but before world graduate it has to pass several classes and every class will be taught by different teachers appointed by school management (Allah).

[badrijanab]

so we Bohra Mumin drink the very water that was originated at the Gangotri which is ELIXIR for roohani health of mumineen. Where else for others their water though originated from Gangotri but got adulterated and polluted in the way by Abbasi / Ummaiyaad/etc and now in current time what they are having is the water of 'Hooghli River' extremely toxic for roohani health of all other sects.

What is "Hooghly" for you is "Gangotri" for the vast majority and vice versa.

GM bhai, your above contention is not matching with Hadees of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. "All sects (72) of Islam will burn in hell, except for one sect that will go into paradise." Where else my original contention precisely reflects Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. indication that Bohra maslak is the sect to enter paradise, we have elixir of Gangotri and VAST MAJORITY (72 sects) have water of Hoogli (will burn in hell as per Prophet s.a.w.w.)

Think about it GM bhai. Don't look Bohra faith with the glasses of Kothar - they are like Hindu and Muslim sadhu and baba's whose business is to con common men and to pocket their money! Look Bohra maslak minus Kothar = the only maslaq in compliance with the Quran or true Islam indeed.

Thanks

[seeker110]

You will not be judged by what side of the fence you were standing, but how much of the fence you help to remove.