Intercession and divinty

[anajmi]

Well, this is how we started.

DB said

Shia believe in Intercession and yes, our Imams are divine.
Shia theology is clearly justified and authenticated in the Quran.

When asked to prove this from the Quran since it is supposed to be in the Quran, DB came back with a portion of 33:33, his interpretation of which was easily dispatched. When unable to produce evidence from the Quran, he came back with questions suggesting other stuff is also not in the Quran. Hence, we can now safely conclude that his original assertion about shia theology being clearly justified and authenticated in the Quran was untrue.

[seeker110]

Yehan tuo sarae he Haidery khare hain.............

Kash mei Ali ke gali ka kuta hota...............................Shahbaz qaladar.

[Qutbi-Hero]

This is astonishing! A Sunni actually admitting that the blood family of the Prophet are more important than his wives! Congratulations for seeing the light!
Now that you have accepted that the Ahlul Bayt are most certainly Imam Ali, Bibi Fatima, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain, will you also accept them as one of the two weighty things too?

As they say, doobte ko tinke ka sahara chahiye. I said that for a man, his blood is more beloved. If you had read my post clearly it says "basic human (or animal) nature. " This isn't Islam, it is basic human or animal nature. It is like banging my head against a wall. Since I am willing to give my life for my kids, they are divine as per your idiotic logic!!

I see, so a man loving his blood family makes him an animal lol. No wonder so many of you Sunnis are terrorists.
I shall follow the example of the Prophet and love my family too, you continue following the example of Abdul Wahhab.

And that in short is the shia faith for you. Pick a word from here, pick a word from there and create a fairy tale.

For Sunnis it is pick an Abu Bakr from here, pick an Umar from there and merrily do the work of Shaytan.

No problem, as soon as you answer the question which I'm now asking for the third time - what Ayats do you refer to when pronouncing the Shahadah, performing Wazoo, praying Namaaz, completing Hajj?

Is Hajj mentioned in the Quran? - Yes
Is Wudhu mentioned in the Quran? - Yes (5:6)
Is Tawheed (Shahadah) mentioned in the Quran? - Yes (Surah Ikhlas and dozens of other places) The Shia shahadah which includes the name of Ali is not mentioned or referenced. The Sunnis have six different shahadah and portions of each shahadah are taken from ayahs of the Quran.
Is Namaaz (Salah) mentioned in the Quran? - Yes (dozens of times including mentioning of ruku, sujood and qiyam)
Is divinity of the Imam mentioned in the Quran? - No

As you are no doubt aware, these Ayats do not detail how to perform anything. Please provide the Ayats that do.
While you're at it, why not give the Ayats which declared your 3 beloved Caliphs as 'Rightly Guided' and the one that Abu Bakr was the successor.

If it is no loss to you then why do you feel the need to try?

Well, as Krishna said to Arjun - Karm kar, phal ki chinta mat kar.

Are you a Hindu convert?

So you Sunnis have supposedly 'proven' the Tragedy of Karbala as being right, have you?

Huh?

Why the confusion? Surely you have a perfectly logical explanation for why the massacre of the Prophets family was so very "Rightly Guided"? Please do reveal the Sunni truth on this matter.

If the Shia have gone astray (apparently by the choice of Allah) and nobody can guide them - why are attempting to do so?
Are you an Arab from Saudi? Will King Abdullah pay you a handsome reward?

As per the Quran, the job of the messenger was to deliver the message. Conversion is in the hands of Allah and reward is with Allah. Imagine if the prophet were a shia and thought the same way? What if he had said, why should I attempt to guide those who have gone astray? Not just you, but even I would've been doomed.

You do remember this was your point which I replied to lol?
Again you didn't answer, are you an Arab from Saudi?

[Qutbi-Hero]

Are you an Arab from Saudi? Will King Abdullah pay you a handsome reward?

Investigating Officer of the Scotland yard Mr.DB Londoner has yet another assignment for the sunday.
You must be emplaning for Saudi now to get on the trails of the above case. All the very best.
And yes, just to remind you of the other pending case of identity check of Muslim First. Gonna be busy today, I guess.

I wonder why you Sunnis have so much to hide?

[Qutbi-Hero]

Well, this is how we started.
DB said

Shia believe in Intercession and yes, our Imams are divine.
Shia theology is clearly justified and authenticated in the Quran.

When asked to prove this from the Quran since it is supposed to be in the Quran, DB came back with a portion of 33:33, his interpretation of which was easily dispatched. When unable to produce evidence from the Quran, he came back with questions suggesting other stuff is also not in the Quran. Hence, we can now safely conclude that his original assertion about shia theology being clearly justified and authenticated in the Quran was untrue.

Lets recap shall we.
Your fantasy opinion is that 33:33 was referring to the wives of the Prophet as his Ahlul Bayt.
You then declared that Mubahala ensures the wives of the Prophet cannot be Ahlul Bayt.
Most amusing lol. Wahhabis make the best stand-up comics.

Anyway, whether you accept this Ayat is not my concern. You are free to misinterpret as you see fit lol.

[Madam T]

I have heard this example given by every single mullah out there. Not just shia mullah but even sunni mullas give this exact same argument. And I do not agree with it.

Consider that you want to become a doctor. You purchased all the books, you paid the fees to the university, then at the beginning of the school year, you reach the class and find out that the teacher who was supposed to make you a doctor has gone into hiding and appointed a peon in his place. The teacher who went into hiding is the Imam and the peon he appointed is badrijanab!!

Now, would you prefer to learn from the peon or from the books that you purchased???

Above is UNREAL and UNTRUE situation in your corrupted mind. Your imagination cannot happen in any university, a teacher appointed will deliver what he is asked by the management of that college. To begin, teacher do not have any authority to appoint someone including peon in his place except if dictated by the management of college, then that peon become the authorized person appointed by the management of that college and his teaching responsibility is that of college management.

Prophet taught the introductory (Kindergarten) course, the 1st class was taught by Mola Ali a.s., the 2nd class by Imam Hasan a.s., .... till the year 1200AD world has sufficiently mastered.... to further carry on sub-ordinate (2nd tier / Dai) of teacher (Imam) was appointed by college management (Allah).. and at point of time (year 1900 AD) college management have even stopped the 2nd tier of teachers.... in present time the AUTHORIZED LITERATURE (Fatimi Dawat) is available along with TOXIC (adulterated and unauthorized literature by all others) so college management (Allah) has made facility of library available where one can have access to authorized literature to read and if something one cannot understand then college management have provided free lancers (nek/good mumin) who can be approached, they are not authorized to give their personal "rai" or "qayas" (opinions) but they can point answers to questions asked in the authorized literature. So though we in present time is far from 'gangotri' (Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w.) however (for Fatimi Dawat followers) the water is filled at Gangotri in good bottle, preserved & passed it to Ali, to Imam Hasan.... to those authorized books - so we Bohra Mumin drink the very water that was originated at the Gangotri which is ELIXIR for roohani health of mumineen. Where else for others their water though originated from Gangotri but got adulterated and polluted in the way by Abbasi / Ummaiyaad/etc and now in current time what they are having is the water of 'Hooghli River' extremely toxic for roohani health of all other sects.

Only the fools believe that what they know and their way is only the right way and everyone else is a fool. We bohras r like ostrich, by hiding our head under sand we feel there was no sand storm. I guess only by being open to others opinions can we increase our knowledge as well as know the faults in our system.

[anajmi]

DB

So if the entire shia faith is based upon your interpretation of a part of 33:33, I am golden. I am glad I got out. I am hoping you guys have more than a misinterpreted portion of a part of an ayah to stake your faith upon. Although, having dealt with better and more knowledgeable shias on this forum, I know you don't.

[anajmi]

Imam of MY shariah is ALI and Imam of MY tariqah is ALI.... with my every breath comes ALI ALI ALI.

Allah says in the Quran that he hasn't created man and Jinn for anything but to worship him. If with your every breath comes ALI ALI ALI, when do you get the time to worship Allah?

[Qutbi-Hero]

Why did you not reply to my previous posts, point by point? Have you run out of steam already?

So if the entire shia faith is based upon your interpretation of a part of 33:33, I am golden.

There is a lot more to Shia theology than just 33:33, but unlike you I'm not interested in converting anyone. To each, their own, and Allah knows best.
Incidentally have your copious efforts on this forum borne any fruit, or do the Shia here just ignore you or treat you like the village idiot?

I am glad I got out.

You've been on this forum for over a Decade and have more than Ten Thousand posts to your name.
It appears you may have left Shia belief but you certainly haven't left us lowly Shias lol.
Why not be true to your word and genuinely get out?

I am hoping you guys have more than a misinterpreted portion of a part of an ayah to stake your faith upon. Although, having dealt with better and more knowledgeable shias on this forum, I know you don't.

Like most confused Sunnis, you do have the habit of calling people Kafir. Thankfully the Admin is now deleting these posts of yours.

For future reference, here are a few Hadiths from your Sunni books which you may want to bear in mind before committing Takfir.

Call not the people of who face the Kaaba for prayer as Kafir.

Whoever attributes Kufr to a believer, he is like his murderer.

Withhold your tongues from those who say "There is no god but Allah" and do not call them Kafir. Whoever calls a reciter of "There is no god but Allah" as a Kafir, is nearer to being a Kafir himself.

A man came to the Prophet SAW and said "O Prophet of Allah, this man is a Munafiq!"
The Prophet SAW said "Does he say that he loves Allah and his Messenger?"
The man said "Yes".
The Prophet SAW said "Woe to you. Do not call him a Munafiq!"


Have a good Sunniday, I mean Sunday.

[shapur]

DB London wrote:
Are you an Arab from Saudi? Are you a Hindu convert?

Looks like you did'nt get much success in Saudi and are now you are ready to go to India to investigate Anajmi. Apparently you are an equally incompetent detective as well.

By the way, you must know that the antecedents of the bohras in India lie in hinduism and by and large all are descendents of hindu converts of the time.
Only it seems that you are a very recent convert considering your philosophy of attributing divinity to the created rather than the creator.

[shapur]

DB london wrote :
A man came to the Prophet SAW and said "O Prophet of Allah, this man is a Munafiq!"
The Prophet SAW said "Does he say that he loves Allah and his Messenger?"
The man said "Yes".
The Prophet SAW said "Woe to you. Do not call him a Munafiq!"


By quoting this saying of the prophet , it implies that you believe in it too. Then why do you indulge in hatred of the non-shiite sects of Islam against whom you have used the choicest of words.
According to this hadees we are expected to treat the above qualification as a bottomline for a believer thereby underlining the commonality and universality among them.
This saying of the prophet is very much in tune with what God has commanded in the Quran to his believers.

[as2153]

Its also unclear to me why a sunni would come to a website dedicated to "progressing" bohras. Its apparent that there is a vast opportunity for progression in the sunni faith too including the tolerance of extremist view-points that damage the reputation of all muslims including the largely peaceful (progressive and traditional) bohras .

[anajmi]

I am a bohra who has progressed. Once a bohra progresses, he wishes for the others to progress as well. Un-progressed bohras are not interested in converting anyone and that is actually a good thing. Why should they pull others down with them eh?

There is a difference between a munafiq and a mushrik. Look it up. I didn't call you a munafiq. A munafiq cheats knowingly. You are just an ignorant person with 2 or 3 talking points (like the feminine to masculine crap that you threw out without any understanding of either) beyond which you know nothing.

[as2153]

"I am a bohra." Based on your stated beliefs, this is clearly untrue.

[anajmi]

Well, at least I used to be. But you are right. I am no longer a bohra. And I am glad I no longer have to bow down in front of humans.

[Mustansir]

Still garbage coming out from THE troll/village idiot on this forum.. yeah, now a days he only bows down to his imaginary father figures, not the humans who claim to represent them.. It's like a slave saying that now I only bow down to one true master over all others...but of course, I still am a slave...tremendous "progress".

[anajmi]

Aah the coward returns to run once more. Apparently, the last time you were here you said one could find the evidence in 30 seconds for whatever it was that we were discussing. How long ago was that? More than 2 years ago. Looks like you could do with some progress.

[Qutbi-Hero]

DB London wrote:
Are you an Arab from Saudi? Are you a Hindu convert?
Looks like you did'nt get much success in Saudi and are now you are ready to go to India to investigate Anajmi. Apparently you are an equally incompetent detective as well.

Well I'm a Doctor by profession so need to know as much as possible about my sick patient, before I can give a diagnosis lol.
Now tell me, who are you and where are you from? Or is that a big Sunni secret?

By the way, you must know that the antecedents of the bohras in India lie in hinduism and by and large all are descendents of hindu converts of the time.

No way, really? Do Bohras eat Daal, Chawwal and Paleedu too?

Only it seems that you are a very recent convert considering your philosophy of attributing divinity to the created rather than the creator.

Simple-minded Sunnis love to tell Allah what he can and cannot do...
Do you believe Jesus Christ was not divine? Was he not born of a virgin and performed miracles as per the will of Allah? Or is that something you want to play semantics with as well?

[Qutbi-Hero]

DB london wrote :
A man came to the Prophet SAW and said "O Prophet of Allah, this man is a Munafiq!"
The Prophet SAW said "Does he say that he loves Allah and his Messenger?"
The man said "Yes".
The Prophet SAW said "Woe to you. Do not call him a Munafiq!"

By quoting this saying of the prophet , it implies that you believe in it too. Then why do you indulge in hatred of the non-shiite sects of Islam against whom you have used the choicest of words.
According to this hadees we are expected to treat the above qualification as a bottomline for a believer thereby underlining the commonality and universality among them.
This saying of the prophet is very much in tune with what God has commanded in the Quran to his believers.

I will always criticise the Wahhabis (as they quite rightly deserve it) but still accept them as Muslims none the less.
Anajmi on the other hand loves to call people Kafir, so why not take him under your wing and teach him the commonality and universality of Islam instead?
Despite some being closer to the truth than others, we are all Muslims here, don't you agree?

[Qutbi-Hero]

I am a bohra who has progressed. Once a bohra progresses, he wishes for the others to progress as well. Un-progressed bohras are not interested in converting anyone and that is actually a good thing. Why should they pull others down with them eh?

Now we're getting somewhere. With this post we get a clearer picture of why you are here.
Since you've decided that the murder of the Prophets family was a good and righteous thing, you've obviously become alienated from your family, friends and community. They have ostracised you and you've become very lonely and bitter.
Therefore you come here because (for some reason) this forum actually 'tolerates' you, whereas nobody else you know does.

This also explains your deluded nonsense about the love of family being a low form of human behaviour. You believe this because it helps you cope with being disowned. You have my deepest sympathies and I hope you can put the broken pieces of your life back together again eventually.

There is a difference between a munafiq and a mushrik. Look it up. I didn't call you a munafiq. A munafiq cheats knowingly. You are just an ignorant person with 2 or 3 talking points (like the feminine to masculine crap that you threw out without any understanding of either) beyond which you know nothing.

Oh wise Sunni Scholar of Islamic Truth lol! You have yet to prove a single thing and seem to only spout contradictions.
Ayat 33:33 and that "feminine to masculine crap" is but a stepping-stone. One of many that I'm sure you are aware of, and have just as inconclusively dismissed to further your hatred of the Ahlul Bayt. You may not accept who they are, but those who knew better had no doubt.

Here is your beloved Aisha narrating from your 'authentic' Sahih Muslim:
The Prophet SAW came out wearing a black cloak, then al-Hassan Ibn Ali came and the Prophet accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Hussain came and entered the cloak, then Fatima came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then Ali came and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited: “Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O’ People of the House and purify you a perfect purification"

On second thought, seeing as you have so little understanding of Islam and feel the love of family is not a facet of being a good Muslim... you are actually far more suited to breeding hatred for the family of the Prophet, so should remain a Sunni no matter what.

Carry on as you were soldier lol.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Imam of MY shariah is ALI and Imam of MY tariqah is ALI.... with my every breath comes ALI ALI ALI.

Allah says in the Quran that he hasn't created man and Jinn for anything but to worship him. If with your every breath comes ALI ALI ALI, when do you get the time to worship Allah?

It's the other way around. The Shia worship Allah but also find the time to honour and respect his chosen messengers to humanity.
You Sunnis on the other hand, say Allah Akbar all day long, usually while committing murder and mayhem. Please try and stop that eh.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Still garbage coming out from THE troll/village idiot on this forum.. yeah, now a days he only bows down to his imaginary father figures, not the humans who claim to represent them.. It's like a slave saying that now I only bow down to one true master over all others...but of course, I still am a slave...tremendous "progress".

Is there a specific reason why these Anti-Shias are allowed on this forum? Is it out of pity because they have nowhere else to go lol.

[Nietzsche]

Yes

[Nietzsche]

There is no "proper" interpretation of the Quran. Never has there been. There has never been a proper "face of Islam". Even during Mohammed's time, there was internal unrest, which led to the split. Today, these branches have, unfortunately....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/28/world/meast/iraq-violence

http://m.aljazeera.com/story/2013638206949585

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/us/ex ... d=all&_r=0

Honestly people, this is what you all call a religion.

[anajmi]

Do you believe Jesus Christ was not divine?

You mean this "divine" = http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/divine ?

you've obviously become alienated from your family, friends and community

Not really. All my family has progressed, most of my friends have progressed and the community still has people like you.

Since you've decided that the murder of the Prophets family was a good and righteous thing,

Actually, you have decided that on my behalf. That is what people like you normally do.

Ayat 33:33 and that "feminine to masculine crap" is but a stepping-stone.

Absolutely right. That interpretation of 33:33 is definitely a stepping stone into crap.

The Prophet SAW came out wearing a black cloak, then al-Hassan Ibn Ali came and the Prophet accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Hussain came and entered the cloak, then Fatima came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then Ali came and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited: “Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O’ People of the House and purify you a perfect purification"

Whoa - Fatima was also in the cloak? Even after the change from feminine to masculine?

[ghulam muhammed]

Whoever chooses to follow the right path, follows it for his own good; and whoever goes astray, goes astray at his own peril; no bearer of burdens shall bear the burdens of another. Al Quran 17:15

[ghulam muhammed]

There are so many different ways that the “Ulema” argue to this day who is right and who is wrong. They fight and curse each other, calling each other “kaafir”. Is that the way of the Prophet (s.a.w.) ?

The whole Shia/sunni/fatimid business is a confused mess—a mumbo-jumbo of contradictory dos and don’ts even in simple acts of worship. But it doesn’t stop here: The literature has made a beast out of the mullah who was born as a human being! Now he screams at everyone who says anything that makes sense.

Not only Hadith/sectarian literature, Allah makes no mention of ANY of the concepts that have now gained tremendous popularity and have been made a part of the Islamic belief system.…..Today people can’t even think of Islam without believing in these things that have absolutely no Qur’anic basis!!!


And the Qur’an makes no mention of the names of the noble Companions either ---No Abu Bakr, no Umar, no Uthman, no Ali !!!

Contrary to the incessant complaints from both Sunnis and the Shias, the Qur’an calls itself “completely detailed (6:114)” and “without missing ANYTHING “tibyanan likulli shay”.

Looks like Allah is on one side and Sunnis/Shi’as are on the other. Allah says yes the Sunni/Shia says no.

[humanbeing]

DB-L
According to Ayat 33:33, it is revealed by Allah that Family of Prophet Muhammad is purified from all “Rijs” (impurity). In definition of family, is wives included ?

[zinger]

@ Human Being:

My friend, you have been around for a year and a half now.

You have been read all the conversations that go on.

The answer to your question, even you know, is different depending on whether you ask a Shia or a Sunni.

So already knowing what the answer might be im wondering what exactly are you trying to get at by asking this question.

Anyways, just to answer your question, a Shia will most probably say "NO" and a Sunni will probably say "YES"

Chalo, let the same old ghissa-pitta debate start... again

[humanbeing]

Dear Zinger
Yes, your observation is correct,
topic is old, but the member is new !
this debate has been around since 1000+ years.
------------------------------------------------------------------
@DB-L
Is wife of Prophet Muhammad, Mother of Sayyeda Fatma Zahra included in Ahlul Bayt ?