Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

[UnhappyBohra]

I think that once the dust settles and intelligent minds realize that Mr. Mufaddal and company actually believe that nass IS retractable, the case - whether it is won in court or not - will be won in the minds of the faithful.

Since they have made such a point of retraction, are they admitting that the private nass was done and that private nass is valid? Is Adam huffing and puffing for no reason? Have his masters already admitted that the private nass was done, is valid and then was retracted? Retraction seems like a covering of bases move by MS. A fall-back plan.

[DisillusionedDB]

Regarding the issue of whether or not nass can be revoked, I see references that during the Nizari-Mustali schism, there was acceptance that nass had been done on Nizar but was then replaced by nass on Mustali - does that not count as a revocation?

Coincidently, today itself I stumbled upon the same thing (while reading about some other history). The screen grab attached is from a Wikipedia article. I don't know how far this is true or false.

[Crater Lake]

Regarding the issue of whether or not nass can be revoked, I see references that during the Nizari-Mustali schism, there was acceptance that nass had been done on Nizar but was then replaced by nass on Mustali - does that not count as a revocation?

Coincidently, today itself I stumbled upon the same thing (while reading about some other history). The screen grab attached is from a Wikipedia article. I don't know how far this is true or false.

Bohra belief is that nizar was never the mansoos. The nass had always been done on Mustaali. Our belief is that imamat is transferred at birth.

[Adam]

The Dawoodi Bohra faith does not believe this was the case. But apparently Adam and Mr. Mufaddal and company do, that's why they have stated to the court that nass IS retractable.
If Adam has the guts, let him repudiate this instead of spewing his hatred all over the board! So, Adam? What's the truth behind this? !

Since they have made such a point of retraction, are they admitting that the private nass was done and that private nass is valid? Is Adam huffing and puffing for no reason? Have his masters already admitted that the private nass was done, is valid and then was retracted? Retraction seems like a covering of bases move by MS. A fall-back plan.[/b]

Hi Haqniwaat
The entire details of the case are un-known to me. I will only comment on what I know.

The issue of retracting of Nass was actually brought up by KQ himself. He said he had a private Nass (without any evidence or witness) and just because he says so, there was a Nass. AND A Nass cannot be retracted.

From Syedna TUS side, all KQ's claims have been proven wrong with substantial evidence from Dawat books (which he is also bound to follow).
1. Nass CANNOT take place in private (without witnesses and evidence). Therefore KQ's entire claim is wrong. (They have misundestood and tiwsted the text of Syedna Taher Saifuddin risala). This has been proven in courts.
2. Retraction of Nass:
Since KQ and team have seen Syedna Burhanuddin RA perform the Nass in Raudat Tahera, and also saw him in the hospital capable of speaking (which they claimed he couldn't have). IT IS THEM who have accepted that a "second Nass" took place. And they brought up this whole idea that since KQ "supposedly" got a Private Nass, it cannot be revoked.

Based on this, Dawat books answer this issue from the case of Imam Mustansir and the story of Nizar.
As Crater Lake has correctly said the following:

Bohra belief is that nizar was never the mansoos. The nass had always been done on Mustaali. Our belief is that imamat is transferred at birth.

Even then, The Nizari's do believe that there was a prior Nass on Nizar. Based on that claim, a book called Hidayat Amir (name maybe spelled wrong), was written during the 20th Imams time to prove that IF the Nizaris claim that there was a Prior Nass, then it is is possible that it can be revoked.

NO WHERE is ANYONE accepting there was a Prior Nass on Nizar.
NO WHERE is ANYONE accepting there was a Prior Nass on KQ.

But, to cover all ends in the legal case, Syedna's TUS side has clarified the position of Dawat texts, that IF (big IF) there was a Nass on KQ, it can be revoked, since it is 100% clear to the courts that the incidents in Raudat Tahera and the Hospital did take place.

[haqniwaat]

But, to cover all ends in the legal case, Syedna's TUS side has clarified the position of Dawat texts, that IF (big IF) there was a Nass on KQ, it can be revoked, since it is 100% clear to the courts that the incidents in Raudat Tahera and the Hospital did take place.

-- says Adam.
So after going round and round in circles, he admits that mufaddal bs and his followers in fact believe that nass IS retractable!
Case closed.

[UnhappyBohra]

The Dawoodi Bohra faith does not believe this was the case. But apparently Adam and Mr. Mufaddal and company do, that's why they have stated to the court that nass IS retractable.
If Adam has the guts, let him repudiate this instead of spewing his hatred all over the board! So, Adam? What's the truth behind this? !

Since they have made such a point of retraction, are they admitting that the private nass was done and that private nass is valid? Is Adam huffing and puffing for no reason? Have his masters already admitted that the private nass was done, is valid and then was retracted? Retraction seems like a covering of bases move by MS. A fall-back plan.[/b]

Hi Haqniwaat
The entire details of the case are un-known to me. I will only comment on what I know.

The issue of retracting of Nass was actually brought up by KQ himself. He said he had a private Nass (without any evidence or witness) and just because he says so, there was a Nass. AND A Nass cannot be retracted.

From Syedna TUS side, all KQ's claims have been proven wrong with substantial evidence from Dawat books (which he is also bound to follow).
1. Nass CANNOT take place in private (without witnesses and evidence). Therefore KQ's entire claim is wrong. (They have misundestood and tiwsted the text of Syedna Taher Saifuddin risala). This has been proven in courts.
2. Retraction of Nass:
Since KQ and team have seen Syedna Burhanuddin RA perform the Nass in Raudat Tahera, and also saw him in the hospital capable of speaking (which they claimed he couldn't have). IT IS THEM who have accepted that a "second Nass" took place. And they brought up this whole idea that since KQ "supposedly" got a Private Nass, it cannot be revoked.

Based on this, Dawat books answer this issue from the case of Imam Mustansir and the story of Nizar.
As Crater Lake has correctly said the following:

Bohra belief is that nizar was never the mansoos. The nass had always been done on Mustaali. Our belief is that imamat is transferred at birth.

Even then, The Nizari's do believe that there was a prior Nass on Nizar. Based on that claim, a book called Hidayat Amir (name maybe spelled wrong), was written during the 20th Imams time to prove that IF the Nizaris claim that there was a Prior Nass, then it is is possible that it can be revoked.

NO WHERE is ANYONE accepting there was a Prior Nass on Nizar.
NO WHERE is ANYONE accepting there was a Prior Nass on KQ.

But, to cover all ends in the legal case, Syedna's TUS side has clarified the position of Dawat texts, that IF (big IF) there was a Nass on KQ, it can be revoked, since it is 100% clear to the courts that the incidents in Raudat Tahera and the Hospital did take place.

Ohhhhh Myyyy Goddd! You guys are a piece of work! I heard a wise man say that a cult is one which has a doctrine that is so convoluted, it can be twisted to explain ANYTHING! Man oh man. I thought that imamat is determined at birth. Wasn't there a story about Moulana Abdullah walking around shining bright before Rasulullah's conception. So much so that some woman wanted to marry him pre-conception and wanted to have nothing to do with him after because of the lost opportunity of birthing an imam. It was always something that intrigued me everytime I heard this bayan from Aqa Moula Burhanuddin RA. So then how can Nizar have been made imam and nass retracted? Makes one want to not believe in ANYTHING!!!

[haqniwaat]

I told you mufaddal bs and company are nuts. They love changing tenets of the faith that have been in place for a thousand years.

And Mr. Adam, about believing Syedna Qutbuddin, who was mazoon, over believing mufaddal bs, who has no rutba, it doesn't take a scientist to figure it out. Yes, I believe him just because he says so, witnesses or no witnesses! Who is more worthy of being a witness than a mazoon himself! And you Wahabis who will make fun of this, let others read my post for a change before you post your great comments. Thank you!

[next_generation2014]

Did anyone have update for today's court case?

[Adam]

@haqniwaat
Please read the Dawat books before blurting with ignorance.
Namely "Hidayat Amiriyah" which discusses this concept very clearly.

[maethist]

@haqniwaat
Please read the Dawat books before blurting with ignorance.
Namely "Hidayat Amiriyah" which discusses this concept very clearly.

In what language is "Hidayat Amiriyah"? Is it Arabic, lisan-e-dawat etc.? And where can I get a copy?

Thanks

[Al Zulfiqar]

From Syedna TUS side, all KQ's claims have been proven wrong with substantial evidence from Dawat books (which he is also bound to follow).

so now here is the opportunity to prove that this slimy snake who speaks with a forked tongue and poisonous fangs is so wrong. when convenient this rascal quotes from dawat books and specifically emphasises that they are absolutely to be followed by EVERYONE, but when inconvenient he asserts that the dai of the time has the right to change and alter things according to the needs of his time.

so what about the most important dawat book - daimul islam - wherein 99 qualities and parameters are clearly mentioned which a dai should possess? but no, our pet dog will avoid commenting on that!

what about the fact that sajda is prohibited to anyone other than allah and that even the prophet and ali himself forbade it as a sign of shirk, and this lap dog will start spewing bull such as sajda e ubudiyya wal taqriman wa taziman etc crap to justify sajda to his slave masters.

what about shaikh sadiqali's nasihats wherein he has clearly mentioned that the dai's line ends at 46th? our cowardly hired muscle of mufatlal will avoid commenting on that.

i have challenged this 2 bit street urchin who throws stones and runs to face me several times, but this lily-livered goon has no guts and hides with his stump of a tail between his legs. typical behaviour of an arse licking abde. over the years everyone on this forum has learnt that adam is a cheap sidekick of the tyrannical dawat.

[maethist]

Al Zulfiqar,

I admire your writing skills and you appear to be making some valid points for Adam to consider. But you also appear to be quite abusive in your tone against Adam.

I would understand it if he hesitates from contributing because he may not have quite as thick a skin as the illustrious authority on the Quran, Islam and Bohras, Sheikh anajmi (SAW, TUS etc.)

[ghulam muhammed]

DONT WORRY ABOUT THE CASE !!

[Al Zulfiqar]

maethist,

with all due respect, although my post may sound pretty harsh against adam, you have to understand the root cause of my ire against him.

adam has knowledge of deen and arabic. he also seems to be a reasonably intelligent fellow, but he uses his ilm to mislead people and spread shirk and kufr by supporting anti-islamic practices and blatant violations of the bohra deen by him whom he considers the representative of allah, such as sajda to dai, referring to him as ilah ul ardh, haq na saheb, mojiza na saheb, haqiqi kaaba, natiqe quran and many more kufr-filled epithets in his praise. its one thing to have knowledge and another to cunningly and deliberately misuse it to support the rascals of kothar who live a life of yazidiyat, shooting and killing animals, travelling first class or charter, by luxury cruise liners, buying up multi-million dollar properties across the globe, bribing officials, hobnobbing with goondas and corrupt politicians etc to further his influence and power.

even the quran states unequivocally that those who lead the faithful astray whilst in possession of ilm and in a position to guide people towards the truth, these will be the first to be hurled into the fires of hell, they will be the first ones chosen to taste the severe agony of its most intense heat.

i can tolerate a lot of fools and idiots, but this guy is no fool and no ignorant simpleton. he has made it his life's mission to lie, deceive and take people astray in service of his dishonest masters. for someone such as him, i have not an iota of mercy nor even a tiny bit of respect. adam is someone who has sold his soul to the devil.

[haqniwaat]

This is exactly where Adam and I differ. Adam believes the Nizaaris and we believe in the Dawoodi Bohra belief, which is the belief of Syedna Qutbuddin TUS. Adam and his leader Mr. Mufaddal Saifuddin believe the same as the Nizaaris.

[Adam]

This is exactly where Adam and I differ. Adam believes the Nizaaris and we believe in the Dawoodi Bohra belief, which is the belief of Syedna Qutbuddin TUS. Adam and his leader Mr. Mufaddal Saifuddin believe the same as the Nizaaris.

Haha! You're a real joke.
It's actually what KQ claims that is identical to Nizari belief. Please get your facts straight.
If you're ignorant in Dawat texts, please remain silent or ask KQ.

It is according to Dawoodi Bohra doctrine that Nizar was NEVER the Mansoos, just as KQ was NEVER the Mansoos.
Both, Imam Mustansir and Syedna Mufaddal TUS were appointed through a Nass with witnesses.

@maethist
Hidayat Amiriyah is written in Arabic. It was written during the 20th Imam, Imam Amirs time (hence the name "Amiriyah")

@JavedhJuma
Imamat by birth simply means the Imam is born an Imam. Nizar was NEVER the Mansoos.

[kimanumanu]

So answer this direct question: According to your understanding, can a nass be revoked?

[UnhappyBohra]

Adam you have stated that according to Hidayat Amiriyah nass can be retracted.... How can it be if imamat is determined at birth? That is akin to saying that the imam made a mistake the first time....

[adna_mumin]

Order in Bombay HC website for the 14 Oct hearing

CORAM: G.S. PATEL, J
DATED: 14th October 2014
PC:-

1. Time for the Defendant to comply with the previous order for marking of the relevant paragraphs of the written statement in the court copy is extended till 31st October 2014.
2. Office to allow the Defendant to carry out that marking as indicated in the earlier order.

[Crater Lake]

Order in Bombay HC website for the 14 Oct hearing

CORAM: G.S. PATEL, J
DATED: 14th October 2014
PC:-

1. Time for the Defendant to comply with the previous order for marking of the relevant paragraphs of the written statement in the court copy is extended till 31st October 2014.
2. Office to allow the Defendant to carry out that marking as indicated in the earlier order.

All these months and they could not mark the copy?! I guess they needed more time to empty out the purses of the bohras, make rotis and slaughter elephants.

[adna_mumin]

From Syedna TUS side, all KQ's claims have been proven wrong with substantial evidence from Dawat books (which he is also bound to follow).

what about shaikh sadiqali's nasihats wherein he has clearly mentioned that the dai's line ends at 46th? our cowardly hired muscle of mufatlal will avoid commenting on that.

Who is the person referred to here, Shaikh Sadiqali?

If the reference is to Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb RA who is famous for his nasihats and who is madfoon of Surat then the comment attributed to him seems erroneous.
He lived during the lifetime of 3 duat mutlaqeen - 42, 43 and 44.

How and where has he "forecasted" what you attribute to him, if it is indeed this person?

[JC]

Before proceeding to MuffatDal and KQ, and even to Nizar and Mustansir ............... think about this ...... if Imam is by birth, then how come Ismail died before Jafar-us-Sadiq? How come JS did Nass on Ismail? this proves JS did not know (very true) about timelines of his son's death. Nass was retracted and Musa Kazim was made next Imam (now Ismailis will disagree with this). Majority went with Musa Kazim. If Ismail nominated Mohammad as next Imam, how could have done that in life time of an Imam, that be Jafar-us-Sadiq?? Ismail could not have 'become' Imam in lifetime of his father, Imam JS, hence how could he have done Nass on Mohammad, if he did, it was not valid simply because he had not attained Imamat when he did nass on Mohammad.

If you disagree on Musa Kazim and disagree that Nass can be retracted than Imamat stopped at Imam Jafar-us-Sadiq.

[system5]

Language used by AZ is perfectly correct for so called royals of saifee mahal. If we followers of Bohra sect can be treated like dirt and untouchables, should we be still giving them importance in our daily life? Respect and honour can only be given if you are respected and honoured. These so called alims and priests are criminals and thieves in white beard and white robes. They should be shown their right place and time is over where they can lord over us. We should stop taking their threats and lies anymore.

[ghulam muhammed]

Respect and honour can only be given if you are respected and honoured.

Respect is "Commanded" and not "Demanded" !!

[system5]

GM wrote
Respect is "Commanded" and not "Demanded" !!

very true

[kimanumanu]

This thought occurred to me today - why are all the court cases in India? Is it because Dawat is HQed there? Why can't a case be brought up in the US or UK?

[ghulam muhammed]

This thought occurred to me today - why are all the court cases in India?

Because there is only one Narendra Modi and BJP government in this world !!

[Moiz_Dhaanu]

Mr.Adam
Can you please avoid blabbering baseless jargon and stop going around the bush when someone asks a particular question.
The best advice someone can give you is "Nothing is better than nonsense"
You seem to be always making an all out effort to derail the topic at hand.
So this time i would like you to answer just 2 simple questions , which have been lingering around this forum for a long time. I hope u can answer them in a clear and consise manner(keep it to the point)

1) State 5 attributes/qualities which DMBS has or has shown which can make us believe that he is dai-material?
2) Did you beleive or now believe in Zahir-batin theory regarding Mazoon and Muqasir rutbas which all qasre-aali and DMBS have propogated ?

if you cannot anwser these above 2 questions i would request you to shut your frontal orifice and bark some place else(not on this forum) where ppl(abdes) are dumb enough to accept your verbal diarrhea.
P.S. DMBS = Dawedaar Mufaddal Bhai Saheb

[mumin4mumin]

The most pressing question on the survey was the applicability of the survey to those who are Regular attenders of mainstream Bohra masjids. The data from the survey were filtered to address this specific question. See new post on http://www.mumineens.com/frequent-attenders/

[babdeen]

jo apne baccho ko sambhal naa paya aur unkaa dil naa jhit paya, wo 10 lakh logo ko kaise manage karenga?

Don't worry. They are not unterested in managing people; Just their money.