what happens when you die

[profrog]

this is question i would like to know the answer of,please somebody help

[SBM]

I thought you are supposed to learn that in your SABAQ, Why ask Reformist when you call them all kinds of names
But again here is the FROGGY BRAIN....

[seeker110]

Br Pro Frog.
See the only way is to carry o lot of white envolopes.Also dont forget your wallet.Aqa moulla will meet you there at the gate.There will be fifteen little kids around him.Doesnt matter who or whose kids.But that the way it is being sold here.Why any diffrent over there.Sorry Br., just being sarcastic.

[profrog]

hey donkey maybe later on i will learn in my sabaq but my question is now ,there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable progs so please one of you answer me,not the donkey

[SBM]

Hey Forggie
What happens after you die
This question should not have been asked from a frevelent follower of Aqa Moula.
Reason being after your death, Aqa Moula will be waiting for you to guide and take you to Jannat
SO DONOT WORRY BE HAPPY AND DIE SOON TO BE MET AT THE GATE OF JANNAT
( we are told in Waiz and Sabaq that this world is temporary and the rewards of Jannat are better then I wonder why do Aqa Moula wants a long life to live till Qayamat)

[kalim]

Dear profrog: First, let me congratulate you on being a perfect example of a follower of the sayedna. Yes, followers of a messenger of peace, an angel of mercy, one who gives you jugs of milk if you ask for a sip of water, all must study your profound and erudite contributions on this board and try and emulate them.

Anyway, your question has a very simple answer, specially if you accept the scientific method of knowing. After death the body decomposes and the materials it was made up of gets recycled into other things. Consciousness ceases as there is no evidence that consciousness can occur in anything but material brains. That is it. But you may want to ponder that the very atoms in your body are all the decomposed remains of a long dead star.

Now such an explanation may not satisfy you, for you may ask, what about the virgins? Who will de-flower them if your sexual organs have all turned into carbon? How will you ogle at the comely boys like scattered pearls, if your aqueous-humor has all but evaporated? Then there is another fairy-tale and romantic explanation which may be more comforting to you. You will spend about three days in your grave then a part of your soul will rise to the moon, queuing up with the other recently-dead, to await whatever comes next. Then the small amount of your soul remaining in your grave will join the rest of you again after forty nights. During this time of separation, whether you will suffer from a dualist confusion, is not written in any haqaiq kittab. Never mind, you will then meet Aqa Maula at the gates of heaven (of which there are eight, gates i.e. not Aqa maula) and you shall be led to your share of virgins and boys. Of course, whether you can get an erection in this ghostly/spiritual state is also not written in any haqaiq kittab.

There is some confusion among the great exponents of the past. Some say you will become a part of the Imam of the time who will in turn become a part of the Qaim al-qiyamat and then with him rise up to join aashir-muddabir, the tenth Intelligence. Aashir, in his turn, will rise, one step at a time, till he achieves his proper position in the decade of Intelligences, i.e. the third. Thus, one cycle of the Heavenly-Drama, which was started eons ago by a newly emanated but befuddled aashir, will finally come to an end.

However, if you are to believe Imam Ahmad al-mastur, the issuer of the epistles of the Ikhwan al-Safa, then after you die heaven will consist of an eternity of pleasant philosophical discussions with greats like himself, Socrates, Aristotle and other thinkers. Hell will be an eternity with Anajmi, discussing the finer points of Shahi Bukhari. For Anajmi, of course, heaven will be discussing the finer points of Shahi Bukhari and hell debating with Average Bohra, Humsafar and myself. As John-Paul Sartre says, hell is the other.

So I have offered four options, feel free to select whichever makes you happy.

[tahir]

Life After Death: The Wheel of Rebirth

KARMA and REINCARNATION

meaning and consequences

[accountability]

kalim: nicely put. so, where will I be. I think, i am in middle between you guys and anajmi and co.
Do you know anything in between heaven and hell.

[anajmi]

kalim,

I would appreciate it if you do not take potshots(which seems to be the only debating capability you still have) at me when you don't have the balls to reply to any of my posts directed to you.

[anajmi]

Kalim,

I apologize for bringing your balls out into the open, unfortunately, if I am to continue participating on this board, I will need to deal with all kinds of people, including the ones that you mentioned and the ones sitting on the fence torturing their own genitalia. I cannot be loosing my cool every time. Hence I apologize again.

[kalim]

Dear Anajmi, I am not interested in debating with you. Dialog, yes, debate no. Debate seems too aggressive. After more than five years on this board (of which I have posted only for a year) I know precisely what you will say. Of course, you also know what I will say. I have made my stand very clear several times. There is also another reason: to discuss anything beyond the narrow interpretation you would present you need to have a proper grounding in Islamic history and philosophy, in addition to modern philosophy and science. As this is a bohra board you also need to know genuine Ismaili philosophy and history (not the junk produced by Africawala et. al.). You do not have the inclinations to acquire such knowledge. You are content with shahi hadith. So we will both waste our time debating.

Anyway, I was certainly not taking any potshots. I meant that as a compliment. I was just trying to fool around with profrog. So no need to get so worked up. Your apology is not accepted, though, for I did not feel offended. You response was quite funny, actually. Nice relief after a tiring day: besides work, I have been rock climbing quite a bit and am specially exhausted tonight. But really, what could be worse hell for a bohra than listening to you expound on Shahi Bukhari?

[tahir]

Originally posted by accountability:

Do you know anything in between heaven and hell.

YES, her name is Hellen .

[anajmi]

Dear kalim,

So if you are not interested in debating with me, how can I be in hell debating with you, unless you don't know the difference between your front and your back? And if listening to Bukhari is hell, wait till the real thing comes around, then you will really be in hell...well..

And I am heartbroken that my "apology" was not accepted.

And please, don't mind me, produce the "genuine" Ismaili history and philosophy.

You know what, just forget it. There is no point in wasting everybody's time.

[accountability]

Tahir: Is it a place or huri,

Tell her not to dress properly. I'll like her, if she is not a lady.

[profrog]

thanks donkey for telling what will happen to me when i die but i was intrested in knowing what is the progs belief about what will happen to them when they die,will insaaf or asger save or not,am expecting a lot of abuses by the donkey

[profrog]

hey donkey where are you lost looking for somebody to save you or what

[SBM]

Froggy
I didnot know you missed me. Atleast it proves a point you do like abuse as you said in your previous post. AND YOU SHOULD BE IMMUNE TO ABUSE AS KOTHAR HAS DONE A GOOD JOB IN ABUSING YOU

[profrog]

like i said no answers only abuses,donkeys oh sorry progs will never answer anything only deal in obtuse claims like iblis shaitan,why are you afraid to answer on what will happen to you when you die

[Muslim First]

Brother profrog
AS

Since you have been asking since 7/12/06.

Following will help.

Only Allah knows what happens to us after we die. There is is some material available in Qur’an and Ahadith.

Here are few links you can study.

Life after Death
How Do Muslims View Death?
http://www.islam-guide.com/life-after-death-by-wamy.htm

Death in Islam
http://arabicpaper.tripod.com/malik.html

HEAVEN, HELL AND DEATH
http://www.submission.org/hhd.html

Islam and death
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... rev3.shtml

What Happens After Death?
Written by Patrick Zukeran
Differing Perspectives on Death
http://www.probe.org/content/view/14/77/

I know for sure and I have posted it somewhere else that it is impossible that HH Maulana will (definitely) not meet you at the gate of Jannah. Whatever happens the following is truth as far as Muslims are concerned.

Somebody asked:

What is it that keeps us from entering Heaven?

Worship of anyone other than Allah is the greatest sin. It is called shirk, and this is not forgiven except through repentance.
http://sultan.org/articles/ISLAMFAQ.html

With this knowledge, please go and ask your Amil same question.

So brother, Stop worshipping Graves, Saints, Imams and Die. Worship Allah alone.
Wasalaam
.

[kalim]

Dear MF: Why do you think your version of Islam is more correct than the Bohra? Your trust in the interpretation of the Quran and hadith presented by Sunni exponents is blind. You have nothing but faith to go by. So your belief that only allah knows best or the Bohra belief that the Sayedna will meet them at the pearly gates is completely equivalent: both are equally ridiculous. Both are not based on evidence but simply on faith, i.e. belief without proof. Obviously, one can not use scripture as proof as they themselves are of doubtful provenance. So in a way you and the Bohras and the Ismailis and other religious people are all trapped in a form of nihilism.

For the Bohras the actions and the words of the Imam and the da'i are have equal value as the Quran. Now understand that trying to find proof of this from the literal text of the Quran is futile. First, one must accept that the Imam and the da'i hold the same value as the Quran and then everything else follows. Also understand that your belief in the Quran is exactly the same: you first accept the Quran as a postulate and then develop a system of belief. So both are identical, as both are based on an initial act of faith.

However, both can not be correct at the same time, but both can be wrong. This is my position. Any belief system based on blind faith can not be easily judged in comparison of the other. The correct way to develop a set of ethics is through a proper rational and scientific understanding of the human conditions and recognizing that the only fundamental truth is that we are all humans. We may not be created equal (for example, some people may be genetically predisposed to certain types of behavior), but recognizing that even these are humans we can develop a sense of compassion towards them. Such universal ethics have been worked out many times, for example, by Bharuch Spinoza, for an early example, and by many others in modern times. Of course, to one steeped in the self-righteous belief in the correctness of his own religion such claims are quite heretical.

Anyway, this talk about shirk, graves, heaven, hell etc. hold as much value as a ponderous discussion on the length of Santa Clause's beard or how many angels can dance on a pin head. Leave people alone to believe their own fairy tales if you choose to believe in one your self. If you want to criticize someone else's beliefs first prove your own using an objective, independent method of proof, without using any unreasonable baseless postulates.

[Muslim First]

.
Br Kalim
AS
I must have caught you after another rock climbing exercise.

Your statement “ For the Bohras the actions and the words of the Imam and the da'i are have equal value as the Quran" is quite amazing. Even Prophet did not claim his actions and words were equal to Qur'an.

So what happens to a Bohra after he dies. Do you have any answer for profrog?

Or when HH Maulana says 'I will meet you at the gate and take you to Jannah',you take it as fact, since by your statement his words are as good as Qur'an!

Please post if Bohra belief is any different then link I posted and repeated below;

Life after Death
How Do Muslims View Death?
http://www.islam-guide.com/life-after-death-by-wamy.htm

Wasalaam
.

[SBM]

Br. Kalim
Salaams
I am amazed by your words that for Bohra "word of Dai or Imam is same as Quran"
There are two ways to look at it , if the word of Dai and Imam is same as Quran then Dai or Imam is basing all his information on words of Quran so whatever Dai speaks he is replicating Quran as you mentioned that they are equal
The other side is I donot think that any Dai including the current one ever has said that my word is more important than Quran or I speak for Quran. Whatevery differences we might have with current Dai but I have never heard him saying that.On the contary this Dai has repeatedly asked Bohras to read and recite Quran even has gone as far to say that Bohras should memorize Quran, So your impresseion is totally misguided

[SBM]

Froggy
I cannot answer to that question because I simply donot know. What I read and understand from Quran is after my death, depending upon my deeds, either I will be fried in Hell or I will have fun in Jannah
In this current world we have enough problems to worry about and I honestly donot have time to worry about what happens after death.
BTW you didnot comment on other thread" MILAD 95 IN NY about Moula's farman about respecting other people and their belief

[kalim]

Dear MF: Yes, I wish you had caught me on a rock-climbing exercise! You should try it sometime: quite refreshing and helps keep the flab away. It is also a nice way to meet pretty girls. Of course, if you already have your share of four then this would be quite useless.

Anyway, I already outlined 4 options in a previous post in this thread. I may have put it in a light-hearted fashion but the last three are genuine bohra beliefs. I do not subscribe to any of them, but am at present inclined to accept the first in view of all known physical evidence. Please point out a repeatable and objective experiment to show consciousness exists independently of matter if you know of one.

Your point of the Prophet's words and action not having the same status as the Quran is quite surprising. Then why follow the hadith in the first place? Why defend the hadith and Sharia with the same vigor as the Quran? Obviously, the Sharia is codification of the Prophet's action and words and is immutable because it is divinely inspired. The Bohras also hold this view but in addition add the living guidance of the Imam and, in the Imam's absence, the da'i as having the same status as that of the sharia. So trying to show that the da'i's behavior is not correct is not possible because by definition his action is correct. He defines what is correct and incorrect. As I once told you, the Bohras are not very different from the Sunnis in their outward practice. You should just ignore some silly things they do now and then.

So even if in principle you do not equate the Prophet's words and action with the Quran, in practice you do not make any difference between the two.

Anyway, I am not inclined to read all those links you posted. I may later, so thanks for posting them.

Friend Oma: There is a difference between outward practice and philosophy among all Ismailis, including the Bohras. Please try and read some haqaiq works of the Fatimid times to understand the true position of the Imam and the da'i. One major mistake the Progressives make is to assume that the da'i's position during satr (i.e. when the Imam is not physically present among the followers) is the same as that of a da'i when the Imam is present. They are not. For all practical matters, the da'i is the Imam during satr. Now try and find what Sayedna Moyad and Kirmani say about the Imam in their philosophical works. Then apply the same to the present da'i. Also, many popular madheys say quite openly that the da'i is a Quran-e-natiq and a "bolta" Quran.

[seeker110]

Can I use the excuse that because of my nature,I only believe half of what I read or hear,and most of all I see.

I did not meet anybody coming back from jannat or jahanam,I am not sure it exists.The only thing I see is nature and feel His presence.So I can be judged about those things only.

Not a single religion I know is completely followed by the people of that belief.Thre is alway a group who says the otherside is wrong.Like ying and yang.

I hope I am not alone in this.

Salam

[anajmi]

seeker,

I hope you don't meet people of Jannat and Jahannum after it is too late!!

[anajmi]

kalim,

Please point out a repeatable and objective experiment to show consciousness exists independently of matter if you know of one.

Statements like these demonstrate ignorance of science as well as religious philosophy. You should stick to just one and forget about trying to figure out the other.

[profrog]

ok donkey we now know that you know nothing about death but what about your other progs like insaaf or engineer can they answer on what is going to happen to them after death or they just believe being burried in bohra cemetery will solve everything

[feelgud]

the question was already replied by AKBAR ALLAHABADI years back:

BATAOON BAAD MARNE KE AAPKE KYA HOGA
PULAAO KHAAYEINGE AHBAAB AUR FATIHA HOGA

[Humsafar]

Kalim,

Let me intervene here. MF was asking for clarification for this statement of yours "For the Bohras the actions and the words of the Imam and the da'i are have equal value as the Quran," not about the actions and words of the Prophet as compared to the Quran.

As far as myths – understood as stories surrounding one's beliefs - go, they are by definition all valid. No one myth is truer than the other. But let's also accept that within Islam's doctrinal framework some myths are more equal than the others. In other words, there's a certain hierarchy of importance assigned to beliefs and icons within this doctrinal system. For example, the Quran and the Prophet form the bedrock of Islamic belief from which spring various other traditions such as the sunni, shia, sufi, etc. Now, it’s true that the concept of the Imam is central to shia belief but this belief is ultimately subordinate to and an offshoot of the fundamental Islamic doctrine originating from the Quran and the Prophet. This means the belief in the imam and his word is only second to the belief in the Quran.

Given this hierarchical structure, it is troubling – even heretical - for most Muslim to learn that “the words and actions of the Imam and Dai are equal to that of the Quran.â€