How I trurnedfrom Hussain

[serendipity]

JC, I'm GLAD you have the courage to challenge the Fundamentalist notion of "straights" having a corner on all the pleasures of Jannah!!! {I AGREE with you.) But Idiot_bohra, who started this thread, CRITIQUES the whole Karbala event from the comforts of his own "modern American" bourgeois existence (kind of like my stepchildren, who say "yawn, it's BORING", because it happened to OTHER people long ago!)

We need to say that Karbala continues to happen EVERYWHERE on this planet, ALL THE TIME; and YES, THANK YOU SAIF...to the ZAYNABS AS WELL AS THE HUSAYNS! (I love your quote: "Its responsibility rests on the fine shoulders of Zaynab, a woman...[whose] mission is MORE difficult and heavier than that of her brother. Those who have the courage to choose their own death have simply made a great choice. But the responsibility of those who SURVIVE is heavy and difficult. Zaynab has survived. The caravan of the captives follows behind her. The ranks of the enemy, as far as the eye can see, are in FRONT of her. The responsibility of conveying her brother's message rests solely upon HER shoulders. Leaving behind a red garden of shahadat and the perfume of roses, spreading from her skirts, she enters the city of crime, the capital of power, the center of oppression and execution."

BOY, do we KNOW that "city of crime, the capital of power, the center of oppression"!!! One other note, all you Bohras.... The ONLY reason you're even AROUND today is because Imam Amir(AS) underwent a SHAHADAT just like his ancestor Husayn. He FORESAW and had the courage to ACCEPT his death, just like Husayn. And he UNDERSTOOD that the responsibility of conveying HIS (as well as Imam Husayn's) message rested solely on the "fine shoulders" of (you guessed it) ANOTHER WOMAN.

[Average Bohra]

I have often wondered what causes the Wahabis to be so ignorant and misguided, and now I see this “map” and it is getting clearer. A conventional map has a starting point and an ending point, and the road you take depends on both; this map has a destination only. These folks are tripping all over themselves trying to find their destination, but they are utterly lost on this utopian road with no intersections, speed bumps, traffic lights, pot holes or detours marked. On top of that, they can’t find this road cause they don’t know where they are (this map does not have a “YOU ARE HERE “ marking), just a road that no one can find and an ever elusive destination of Jannah.

Porus has peaked my curiosity with this interminable sex thing. Is this for real in Jannat ? If so, I'd like to get some.

Anajmi, pretty please, post a map of the inside (with pictures) since you are in the know.

[JC]

Serendipty,

Hey i hope i have spelled ur name correctly..!! Thanks for agreeing, yeah, we ought to have some courage and guts to question .... we have to keep in mind the ground realities and seek more information. And Why Not ..??!!! My point is: Mohammad had the guts and courage to challange the authority at that point in time for betterment of masses, so did Ali, so did Hussain and every big man who dreamed of something and had the guts to achieve or alteast try to achieve that. I am NOT saying, I am of that stature, I am very low, very low - but i want to see and think differently too. As i said, people say Gays are bad, i ask WHY, they are not by choice - and whatever reason they give me, i say see it rationally, IF once thinks it is wrong, then earthquakes are wrong, floods are worng, tsunamis are wrong. We have to ACCEPT things with time.

OK, Hussain was greatm he did what he was suppose to do. Zainull Abideen, Bakir, Jafar Sadiq all were good. BUT i think, may be in successors - Imams had many sons, right, so the descendants would be many - may be in some one's mind the idea of revenge came, may be Walee Kay Ghar Shaytan Paida Ho Gaya - and he started all this dramatization of Karbala. Who knows?

How relevant religions are today???

Average Bohra

I must say, u write and u write good...!!!! But why are u so sarcastic about Wahibis ??? Try to understand, they are right in many ways. We MUST see what is best for human race ... take that, keep them and ACCEPT what may not be good, but is there as we may not have any choice in and at any given period of time.

And man ....!!! Zainab did the good job (IF whatever we have heard and read is correct) but Imam Amir made a mistake .... Huratul Malika screwed it up ....!!!! and yeah, who knows may be she was right ..... Zoaib, Hatim and Yemeni Dais, Qutub Din and Indian Dais were good, may be. But u see what has beocme of it today... Maual, Maula, Aqa Maula, Zeyafat, Zeyarat, Matam, Jaman, Wajeebat, Nazrul Mukam ..... all BS which has no value.

[Average Bohra]

JC,

But why are u so sarcastic about Wahibis ??? Try to understand, they are right in many ways.

That blanket statement applies to every individual, including the Dai but you claim “Burhan and clan will go to hell”. Hope you get my point…..

We MUST see what is best for human race ...

What I know is that it isn’t Wahabism as the failed Taliban and Saudi Arabian societies have proven. Wahabism is a failed political and social system; if you want to practice it like a religion in the privacy of your home or place of worship then have at it with all due respect and consideration as any religion deserves, but you lose that priviledge when you enforce the belief sytem to govern others, forcibly and violently.

Regards,

-AB

[JC]

AB,

Thanks for the reply.

a. When i say burhan and clan will go to hell, i m trying to repay in the same coin. honestly, that is what i write in ager (not good.!!) - i donot know what will happen coz i m even not sure of life hereafter ..!!! i mean to say their wrongs are so many and so obvious that in day to day language and understanding one can say they will go to hell.

About Wahabism - well, u r right to some extent. I totally agree that nothing should be forced upon - i beleive in 'suggestion' and not 'supression', i believe in 'democracy' and not 'theocracy', i bleive in 'ballot' not 'bullet' - yes, they are wrong when it comes to enforcing - it should be open for every one to believe, practice and preach what one feels is right. In the same time Wahabis have right to preach. Taliban were wrong and they are gone (they were - may be are MFs - agree with you 100%). I am not a staunch fundamentaist - rather i question and argue on everything leave aside Dai or Imam, they are small issues. Lets talk of IDEAS .... lets challange everything and try to understand its relevance to TODAY. I even do not mind same-sex marriages and a Wahabi will kill me for this (i wish they agree with me on this..!!!)

to me 'religion in itself is great divide'.

i hope i have made myself clear.

[anajmi]

porus,

An intelligent person once said - "If we could imagine what Jannah is like, we would've been able to create it here on earth"

So no I don't know what it is like inside. Inshaallah after I'll die, I'll know and I'll tell you what it is like provided you tell me what hell is like

[anajmi]

JC,

You have raised a lot of points which I will try to answer one by one inshaallah.

"WHY should we try to go to Jannah? WHY ?"

Well, If the joice is between Jannah and Jahannum, I would be trying to get into Jannah. And remember, it is going to be one or the other, there is no middle ground, no wait and watch!!

"fine, faith and belief is there but it must satisfy my curiosity and thirst for knowledge."

What knowledge do you seek? Please do not make absurd demands like you want to know what Jannah is like!! Anyone in their right minds can imagine what Jannah would be like and it will be only better, a whole lot better!!

"People have told me - Belief comes first, Ali (or Abu Bakr) and Khadija showed faith first, believed first and never questioned (or questioned later) - OK, I say I beleive but now who will answer the questions?"

Who asked you to believe first? Ask all the questions you want to and then believe... or don't. Remember a lot of people even during the time of the prophet did not believe and died as non-believers, you too have a right to live and die a non-believer. Hazrat Umar was on his way to kill the prophet (saw) when he was shown the right way by Allah and he realized his mistake and became amongst the prophets biggest supporters. Nobody forced him to believe.

"I have never denied that praying is good or fasting is good, every religion came for the betterment of human race ('came' so currently i accept the source bei=ng God). BUT people have made mockery of faith."

People have made a mockery of faith, true, is that not something that you are doing too? And just because someone is making a mockery of faith, why does that mean that I cannot have faith anymore? Am I that thin skinned?

"You know what i m saying, today religion is a tool to rule and exploit masses."

True, does that mean that the problem is with the faith or the people? I haven't seen any verse in the quran or any hadith which says exploit people, have you?

"PRAY, so I have to pray, can i ask why?"

Sure you can ask why!! that's the beauty of free will ( as morgan freeman said in bruce almighty!!)
As far as the answer to that question is concerned, you will pray only if you believe, if you do not believe then there is no need for you to pray. Once you believe, you will realize that Allah wishes for you to pray for your own good. Until then, you are exempt. If I want to get something, I need to give something. If I want Jannah, I need to be a good and righteous person, and a part of being righteous is to establish regular prayers as mentioned in the quran. That is a requirement for getting into Jannah. If you do not agree, then you can question Allah almighty on the day of judgment!!

"NO, Islam or Quran has given no guarantee that these will take you to Jannah (and thats how i tell bohras how could matam be guarantee)"

I was going to go ahead and say that you are lying, but instead I am just going to say that you don't know what you are talking about. Do you want me to post a few ayahs that will clarify the truth for you or will you be going to www.amazon.com ?

Well, I am pretty tired right now so I will continue this discussion tommorrow.

I just want to say something about homosexuals, you argue that it was Allah that made them that way, so I will say ok, he did that so he can show the rest of us what the people who are bound for hell act and behave like. Even then, some will learn and some will not!!

[JC]

Anajmi,

Thank you very much for the reply.

a. I am still confused on issue of Heaven/Hell. WHY were the human beings created at the first place by GOD?? Ppl say 'to pray God' - i ask WHY, were angels not enough?? OK if He created us to pray why He gave us 'CHOICE', OK He gave us choice, BUT then He says if u donot obey Me, I will put u to hell ...?? so He is controlling everything. He should NOT given the choice, fine, but what is the use of that choice. Shaytan (though angel) disobeyed, so he is out but God has given him liberty to divert people. Why so many TESTS for human beings ???? Apparently, and pls donot mind, to me it seems as if some one is playing with us (the game of cat and mouse). What was the NEED of CREATION of HUMAN BEINGS..???

To me, religion was introduced to bring discipline and law and order. Since there was no competent authority with power, the concept of Heaven/Hell came into being. To motivate and encourage ppl to obey the rules, regulations and policies.

Lets see the similarities of Religion and Communism.
In Religion God is the Authority but has vested powers in some human beings.
In Communism it is State mangaed by Polit Bureau.
Both require we follow the rules and regulations.
Both promise of return (and ppl work and get paid etc)
Both instigae 'fear' - so that there is no rebellion. One says State will prosecute you, other says you will go to Hell.
Religion is more successful as there is an element of 'Unknown' which is termed as 'Faith or Belief'. What if State do not find me of any wrong doings and state are people, so one concludes to take the risk..!! Religion closes that door (God sees you..!!)

honestly to me Religion is better defined Theocracy.

Agreed that people are to be blamed who 'misuse' any good thing, may it be religion, communism, capitalism or whatever. BUT it is a 'TOOL' in the hands of power hungry people. That 'tool' was invented for some work and to achieve something at some point in time, that goal has been achieved. Fokker has been converted to Concord. We had to eliminate 'Communsim' NOT the rulers of those countries only.

Lastly, u said gays will go to hell and they have been made example by God. WHY, what wrong they committed (Islam doesnot believe in Reincarnation) - so this has been thurst upon them. WHY he created them gay, and then let them suffer on earth and then throw them to hell...!!! what kind of justice is that.,,???? NO, Anajmi, there is absolutely nothing wrong being gay ... some men are impotent, some women are infertile - same way some men are gay and some women are lesbian. There are floods, earthquakes etc, they are OK (it is there and it will stay - how, who does all that is question mark). OK what about people with deficiencies, blind, deaf, on hands etc etc..... so at most this is a 'deficiency' from being 'normal' - that is it - there is nothing WRONG about it.

[anajmi]

JC,

People are right. Human beings were created for only one purpose, to worship Allah. Angels were enough, as a hadith says, it does not matter how much a human or all humanity prays, it is not going to increase or decrease the kingdom of God by an atom.

See angels do not have free will, humans were created with free will and that is why those who choose to believe in Allah are more beloved to Allah than the angels, that is what pissed off the devil in the first place. By the way shaitan is not an angel, he is a ginn. He was ordered to be thrown into hell when he asked Allah for respite till the day of judgment so that he could prove to HIM that his prized creation will follow shaitan instead of Allah. So Allah set him free just to separate the dwellers of hell from the dwellers of heaven.

Hey if you want something as beautiful as Jannah, you would have to go through some tests right, just as you have to do if you want a big degree or phd. Those tests you are ready to give, hey you even pay an entry fee for disneyland but you want a free entry into Jannah!!

And the argument that you present about why religion was created is one that is given by every non-believer, so that is nothing new.

This post is incomplete, I've gotta go earn my living now, will complete in the evening.

[anajmi]

As far as communism and religion is concerned, again I wouldn't be able to compare them cause I do not see any similarity. State does not promise anything after you are dead!!

Religion is a "TOOL" you say, so you will not follow any religion. it is like saying "my brother died of food poisoning so I will never eat food again" Sounds ridiculous doesn't it?

And I have nothing against those who are gay and I do not preach to them to go straight. I am just telling you what God tells us in the quran. Homosexuals are pretty much f'ed in the hereafter. Again you have your comparisons all messed up otherwise you wouldn't be comparing a blind/deaf person to a homosexual!!

[tassa]

I missed a whole bunch of communication. Honestly skipped some of the more in-depth part but this is what immediately caught my attention – Just to make things more clear.

A quick look at Mr X’s (or Mrs X for that matter) Example according to Mr Anajmi’s road map

Mr X is a man who believes in power be it power over women, children or for that matter his poor employees. He owns a factory and pays low wages to his people, beats his wife more often than not and treats his kids very badly, lies and cheats to make the big bucks, and is relevantly guilt free. Basically believes he is indispensable (there is no one like him) - in other words a big fat ego. Yet he start out on his road in the morning when it is still dark, and there says a prayer just before sunrise, so pray he does. He continues to do what he think he should be doing otherwise till it is afternoon and prays, then another in the late afternoon, one just after sunset when it is not yet dark and one after it is completely dark.
On his journey every year a city called ramadan arrives while travelling through which takes a month and he fasts during that month, says his prayers religiously, goes to the mosque – elbows and curses people if they push him, does not stop short of ogling at some of the ladies there. On several occasions has also kicked up fights and abused people, sometimes beaten people at the mosque.

Then comes a city called hajj, this gentlemen had a lot of money – so there was plenty of shopping. Good arrangements coupled with grabbing food, bad behaviour, elbowing and shoving again, plenty of fights , putting himself first and in the most convenient position wherever possible etc etc.

This has been his life till he has died. This, also considering that he has made many people unhappy and made them suffer under his ‘regime’, been uncharitable and such others but yet he has gone by the rules of reaching paradise…….So will this path still take Mr or Mrs X to Jannat.

I wanted to take an example of another person but more shorted description whereby he is not being able to pray as much etc etc. Lets people be, had not harmed anyone and even if he has, has made amends for it. Hardly lied,, treated all with respect and dignity. Been charitable wherever possible etc etc.. what do you think his/her place after death should be

Look, just to add – I think prayers are important, more for GOD it is for yourself. They tend to have this meditative quality. If done correctly and in the correct sense of mind. This, of course dawned on me this Muharram. I felt that whereby other such meditative exercises train the individual to relax and breathe in/out, connect with the inner self and so on. I thought that Prayers have the same quality (EUREKA!). Praying 5 times a day disciplines the individual to leave material pursuits to gain in spiritual (soul) aspects. Only I wish I was praying in the language I understood. And if GOD understands only Arabic then all my prayers have gone down the drain
J

Some more questions and pardon my ignorance – who are wahabis and why?

As I perceive it Islam is a religion that has come about to provide solutions to a particular era … does it provide anwers to modern day questions as well- such as homosexuality (which is actually as old as the hills but is now more on a rights based angle), womens’ liberation, monogamy (who needs more people on the earth!), AIDS, education, globalisation, environment degradation, child abuse and such others.

[tassa]

I missed a whole bunch of communication. Honestly skipped some of the more in-depth part but this is what immediately caught my attention – Just to make things more clear.

A quick look at Mr X’s (or Mrs X for that matter) Example according to Mr Anajmi’s road map

Mr X is a man who believes in power be it power over women, children or for that matter his poor employees. He owns a factory and pays low wages to his people, beats his wife more often than not and treats his kids very badly, lies and cheats to make the big bucks, and is relevantly guilt free. Basically believes he is indispensable (there is no one like him) - in other words a big fat ego. Yet he start out on his road in the morning when it is still dark, and there says a prayer just before sunrise, so pray he does. He continues to do what he think he should be doing otherwise till it is afternoon and prays, then another in the late afternoon, one just after sunset when it is not yet dark and one after it is completely dark.
On his journey every year a city called ramadan arrives while travelling through which takes a month and he fasts during that month, says his prayers religiously, goes to the mosque – elbows and curses people if they push him, does not stop short of ogling at some of the ladies there. On several occasions has also kicked up fights and abused people, sometimes beaten people at the mosque.

Then comes a city called hajj, this gentlemen had a lot of money – so there was plenty of shopping. Good arrangements coupled with grabbing food, bad behaviour, elbowing and shoving again, plenty of fights , putting himself first and in the most convenient position wherever possible etc etc.

This has been his life till he has died. This, also considering that he has made many people unhappy and made them suffer under his ‘regime’, been uncharitable and such others but yet he has gone by the rules of reaching paradise…….So will this path still take Mr or Mrs X to Jannat.

I wanted to take an example of another person but more shorted description whereby he is not being able to pray as much etc etc. Lets people be, had not harmed anyone and even if he has, has made amends for it. Hardly lied,, treated all with respect and dignity. Been charitable wherever possible etc etc.. what do you think his/her place after death should be

Look, just to add – I think prayers are important, more for GOD it is for yourself. They tend to have this meditative quality. If done correctly and in the correct sense of mind. This, of course dawned on me this Muharram. I felt that whereby other such meditative exercises train the individual to relax and breathe in/out, connect with the inner self and so on. I thought that Prayers have the same quality (EUREKA!). Praying 5 times a day disciplines the individual to leave material pursuits to gain in spiritual (soul) aspects. Only I wish I was praying in the language I understood. And if GOD understands only Arabic then all my prayers have gone down the drain
J

Some more questions and pardon my ignorance – who are wahabis and why?

As I perceive it Islam is a religion that has come about to provide solutions to a particular era … does it provide anwers to modern day questions as well- such as homosexuality (which is actually as old as the hills but is now more on a rights based angle), womens’ liberation, monogamy (who needs more people on the earth!), AIDS, education, globalisation, environment degradation, child abuse and such others.

[JC]

Tassa,

Welcome to board. and I agree with so many of ur points. I have been asking guys - does any religion consider the ground realities of today..???

Wahabism, in short is stricter form of Islam preached and practiced in Middle East, particularly Saudi Arabia. This was started by Mr. Abdul Wahab, a Saudi. They believe in things till Prophet Mohammad and after him what happened they really do not care. They do not believe in graves and all that BS in which most muslims are involved. Having said that, they also have their limitations, short comings, etc..!!

Anajmi,

My friend and brother .... we are missing the points. i give TESTS for degree coz it promises something in return, something tangible in this life. Jannah is a myth, u want me to strive for, work hard for, give tests for something of which i am NOT sure. WHY Jannah...??? Why we were created for prayers only ...???? My question is: Does God need our prayers and u said it, it will make any difference to Him. My argument is: He has given us choices, He controls us, and if we do some sin, He will punish us .... You see HE is controlling everything - WHY he allowed Shaytan to go and divert human beings .... it is HE who allowed him, it is HE who controls us, it is HE who has written destiny, then if we go with Shaytan (since we have choice) why HE wants to punish us. NO, Jannah is a relative term, not absolute - What the Creator wants to do good deeds and what Good People taught us is to do good deeds, we have MIND and we can think logically and rationaly. We have to DECIDE what is good for us, that is CHOICE, so if we make right choice we will have good life. The human race is still in the process of evolution, so we still see people doing good deed but suffering ...!!! we have come a long way, BUt there is a long way to go. When we will ultimately gain that wisdom where by we will have a very disciplined society on earth, that will be Jannah ... and we should strive to attain that. Thats what the Creator wants.

AND, regarding homosexuals - YES, I am right in comparing them to blind, deaf or dumb ... why not, at best, this is a shortcoming, NOT sin, a man is being created blind, deaf, impotent or gay ... its all same. It is not a sin as for sin I must have the CHOICE to commit it or not, being gay is not by choice. It MAY be termed a disease or shortcoming, so we should not hate it - we may try to cure it, but if a person looses his one arm, he lives with it and we accept it, why not gays..??!!!

[anajmi]

tassa,

I am sorry to say that the two kinds of personalities that you say are in Mr (or Mrs) X cannot co-exist. So if he is following the map right, then he cannot be doing what you say he is doing cause if he had read the map right, there are clear indications of what he can and cannot do during his journey.

So if he prays 5 times and does not treat people right, I am afraid he is lost!!

[anajmi]

JC,

If God were controlling you all the time, don't you think you would've been praying instead of arguing against him?

Jannah may be a myth for you, and that is just why you may not get it!!

He hasn't written your destiny, he just knows what it is, and that is what he has written down!! The day you understand the difference, you will be a better person.

According to the quran homosexuality is a sin. That's all that I care about.

You can accept and live with gays all you want. You can be one for all I care. See, life here or in the hereafter is not going to be different for gays, they take it in their backsides here and they will get it in their backsides in the hereafter. And that is not what I am saying, that is what the almighty is saying (of couse not in the same words that I have used).

[anajmi]

Let me state another simple example which a lot of people have made before me and I am going to use my life as an example in this example..well, whatever...

So, I, anajmi, try to be a good muslim, pray 5 times a day, fast, give charity, help out relatives whenever I can, do honest work and am raising a good family inshaallah. I am pretty happy with my life am making a decent amount of money too alhumdulillah. I don't drink, don't smoke, don't gamble, no sex for me outside marriage. So let's say in a few years we both die.

Now if you are right and heaven and hell is a myth, I've led a good life and am now dead, ashes to ashes and dust to dust.

Now consider if I am right and if heaven and hell is not a myth, you are pretty much screwed!!

[anajmi]

tassa,

A couple of other things you mentioned,

"And if GOD understands only Arabic then all my prayers have gone down the drain
J"

Well if God understands only Arabic then all my prayers have gone down the drain too, well, actually that's not true cause I have learnt a little bit of quran in arabic and recite that during the prayers. So I guess only your prayers will go down the drain... just kidding, actually God understands all languages, a simple proof of that fact is that the prophets who came before prophet Mohammed(saw) all spoke languages other than arabic.

Now if you ask me if God understands English, then I am sure Bush will be able to answer cause apparently God talks to him and I don't think Bush knows a language other than English and even that is pretty messed up.

"As I perceive it Islam is a religion that has come about to provide solutions to a particular era " Well, your perception is wrong.

I will just explain my point with AIDS as an example. Scientists now are saying that the best way to deal with aids is prevention. Islam 14 centuries ago, prohibited promiscuity. You are allowed to have sex with only your spouse and if one is not enough then you can have 4!! And since intoxication is haraam, no poking yourself with needles!! Even after doing all this, if you still get aids, then you are pretty much screwed. Atleast after you are dead you will get heaven!!

[tassa]

hi anajmi,

what about women's equality, environmental destruction etc.

My next question is : Whatever bit of the Quran I have managed to read (eng version) I have graspes that the quran advocates the growth of a good human being. But tell me coming back to our current Bohri culture. How much do we implement it all? and do you think (please be honest) if you think the average bohri (no no not our partner in this group)carries these qualities after doing making his/her regular presence felt atthe mosque, jamans, sermons etc etc. actually this is also a question to the rest of the remaining

[JC]

Anajmi,

I really appreciate ur replies.

You have written 'God has written my destiny, He knows it (though not controlling..!!??) - even then it is written, right..??!!

I fully agree that good deeds are to be done, there should be discipline, law and order and a peaceful world with live and let live. To me when the ideal world exists (may be after centuries), it wll be Jannah.

Quran's interpretations are still being made, as we grow wiser we appreicate what quran says. Yes, Quran said somethings 1400 years ago, nobody understood, we understand things Quran said TODAY. So, about gays, i can only say, it is not fair to interpret they will go to hell and mind you, not all gays take it into their backsides..!!! it is an attitude, a preference, an attraction beyond;s one control...!!! Pls. donot mix it with sex.

Ashes to ashes and dust to dust.

Tassa,

Burhan and clan are far from being muslims and good human beings - they have taken idiot bohras for a free ride.

[anajmi]

tassa,

what about women's equality? I know a women who says that the only way women and men will be equal is if men are able to give birth and grow breasts to feed the baby. Would that be equality for you too?

Women and Men have different responsibilities, and hence they are not equal the way the western society wants them to be equal. If they had been equal, women wouldn't be used to sell shaving creams and blades and men would've been used to sell bras!!

Environmental destruction, again if you are doing something which causes problems to your neighbor or your children, then do not. I am not sure what else you want the quran to say about it. Sure, it is good to use a hybrid vehicle, do what you think is good, except if it is something that is explicitly prohibited, like homosexuality for eg. And it doesn't matter how good some may consider it.

As far as bohra culture is concerned, well I have freed myself from bohra slavery and haven't been to their mosques for a long time so I have no idea.

[Average Bohra]

if you are doing something which causes problems to your neighbor or your children, then do not. I am not sure what else you want the quran to say about it.

Is this a universal message for any neighbor, or just a Wahabi neighbor ? If it is the former, then preventing a Shiah Muslim neighbor (who are officially classified as "deviants" there) in Saudi Arabia to practice their religion, would be against the Quran and therefore anti-Wahabi. Forbidding a female neighbor from driving a car or working would be anti-Wahabi as it causes her transportation problems. Allowing your neighbor's children to be burned alive because Wahabi Firemen can't see them without a Hijaab would be anti-Wahabi ( and cause death "problems" ).

Exactly where does this Utopian, innovative hypocrisy stop and the real world begin ? Please respond with quotes from the Quran that support the above.

[anajmi]

Yo Average Moron,

How many times do I have to tell your dumb ass that what the Saudi's do or don't is not what Islam is all about. Even a donkey would've understood by now, but you are an average moron after all!!

According to another dumb ass called Bush it was ok to destroy a country to free it. Hypocrisy anyone?????????

[Danish]

Originally posted by JC:
Quran's interpretations are still being made, as we grow wiser we appreicate what quran says. Yes, Quran said somethings 1400 years ago, nobody understood, we understand things Quran said TODAY.

The link provided in Islam Today section is worth the read. Care to join in and discuss?

[anajmi]

Here is another example of hypocrisy

"""The time has come for Syria to fully implement Security Council Resolution 1559: All Syrian military forces and intelligence personnel must withdraw before Lebanon's elections for those elections to be free and fair," Bush said. ""

Now imagine what Iraqi election were like under American occupation, where even the names of the candidates were not known till the day of the election. It's a good thing all the average morons belong to one and the same country.

[BB]

anajmi said

So, I, anajmi, try to be a good muslim, pray 5 times a day, fast, give charity, help out relatives whenever I can, do honest work and am raising a good family inshaallah. I am pretty happy with my life am making a decent amount of money too alhumdulillah. I don't drink, don't smoke, don't gamble, no sex for me outside marriage. So let's say in a few years we both die.

later in another answer he used this language.

How many times do I have to tell your dumb ass that what the Saudi's do or don't is not what Islam is all about. Even a donkey would've understood by now, but you are an average moron after all!!

According to another dumb ass called Bush it was ok to destroy a country to free it. Hypocrisy anyone?????????

Do you think you will go to heaven even if you use such abusive language?I mean is it ok or you are missing something?

[anajmi]

BB,

If you had read my post correctly I said

"So, I, anajmi, try to be a good muslim"

The key word is try. I am trying, but what to do, there are still a few things that piss me off. I pray for forgiveness. Hopefully dumb asses won't make me try harder!!

[BB]

Anajmi

Key point is no one can challange that he will go to heaven because even if one follows the direction you mentioned there are possiblity that he has some other shortcomings and that may lead him to hell at the same time there are possiblity that some one dosn't follow what you mentioned but still his few good deeds may take him to Jaanah

who has seen heaven and hell just try to be a good human being thats all.

[anajmi]

BB,

Obviously I disagree. I haven't seen Africa either, doesn't mean it does not exist!!

According to a hadith of the prophet (saw) a person with Iman equivalent to an atom will have space in heaven 10 times the size of earth. Of course, intelligent folks like yourself will ridicule it and that is fine.

Quran and the prophet guarantee heaven and hell to folks who deserve it and that is what causes me to behave in a particular way.

Average morons may think killing innocent iraqis to get rid of non-existent weapons of mass destruction is good. I do not. So we need someone higher to decide what is good and bad. Obviously I cannot let Average Morons to decide that.

[BB]

anajmi

There are hundreds of Travel agency go there and take a ticket you will reach Africa.you can see it,you can feel the place where as there is no one in this world who can show you the way to paradise.

According to a hadith of the prophet (saw) a person with Iman equivalent to an atom will have space in heaven 10 times the size of earth. Of course, intelligent folks like yourself will ridicule it and that is fine.

Its like telling my 4 year old boy that don't harras me and i will get you a cricket ball of space's size.The bottom line is to make him behave himself.

Quran and the prophet guarantee heaven and hell to folks who deserve it and that is what causes me to behave in a particular way.

Thats exactly what i want to tell you that Quran and hadith gaurantee you for heaven and hell so that peaople don't mis behave and don't go ashtray.

Killing innocent people for non existing weapon of mass destruction is wrong but beheading innocent people in the name of god(fatwa)is also wrong.Majority of people involve in beheading are following the path you mentioned earlier.so do you think they will go to heaven?

[Average Bohra]

BB,

You are attemtping to reason with a guy who equates heaven with a tix to Disneyland, or a trip to Africa. Just don't get your hopes too high on any kind of a meaningful dialog as you will be sorely dissapointed.

Wahabism is not about intellect as you may have figured out.....