Progs Plz Answer my Questions...

[truebohra]

These are my genuine doubts. Please answer them honeslty (if u can)?.
Progs do u have any specific mosque where u offer namaz?
Who does imamat for u in Namaaz? Are there any Aamils among u?
Who conducts Waaz on Moharram specifically on Ashura?
Do you perform Matam at least on Ashura?
Do you go for Ziyarat of our past Dais & hudood fouzala?
Do u have any kind of Niyaz or jaman?
Do ur children go to any kind of madarsaas?
Till which Dai do u think nass has reached ?
Do you believ Imamau-zaman would reveal himself from veil (parda)?
Do you agree that Dawat no silsilo is till qayamat or zuhur of Imam-u-zaman?
-- wait for more but first answer these

[tahir]

Do you believ Imamau-zaman would reveal himself from veil (parda)?

The bohras desperately need appearance of Imam to redeem their souls. The Imam also knows this and he has asked the Dai's Raza to step out. However the raza application is gathering dust in dai's office since the Imam cannot pay the salaam needed for getting the zuhoor raza.

Last month, the imam invited Shehzada Mufaddal in a ziyafat behind the curtain. The shehzada went and changed the Imam's name. So you see there is one more problem. The Imam has a new name and it will be hard for bohras to identify him.

[truebohra]

Tahir,
Stop the mockery of our Imam-u-zaman (A.S). Stop the mockery of Dawoodi Bohra belief system. Tahir,u two faced scum is this ur reform mission about. Y do u call ur self follower of Tayyibi ismaili belief. Mr Accounatability. Is this kind of respect u have for our belief? If u cant recognise Imama-u-zaman how would u recognise Dai? Please give ur intellectual highlight on this & dont try to defend the scum (tahir)

[truebohra]

I don't think the progs can answer my question. honestly. What they can do is avoid genuine questions like scum (tahir)

[Humsafar]

Your questions show you know nothing about the reformists or the reform movement. Please, please do some homework. I'll try to answer your questions, and some more:

Progs do u have any specific mosque where u offer namaz?
Reformists have mosques where they are in substantial numbers and can afford to build one. In udaipur they have 7 mosques (in not more). All reformist mosques are owned by reformist jamaats - and not by the Dai.

Who does imamat for u in Namaaz? Are there any Aamils among u?
Any person with sufficeint knowledge in Islam and its rituals can lead the prayers. We've sepcial programmes to train people in conducting religions ceremonies and rituals.

Who conducts Waaz on Moharram specifically on Ashura?
There are many knowledgeable persons and islamic scholars who do vaaz, and usually have more interesting and informative things to say about the history and background of Karbala than the usual tear-jerking script doled out by the Sayedna.

Do you perform Matam at least on Ashura?
Yes.

Do you go for Ziyarat of our past Dais & hudood fouzala?
Yes they go wherever they can like in Udaipur, Galiakot, Ahemdabad. They would like to go to other ziyarats but the Kothar's "baraat" system would not allow them.

Do u have any kind of Niyaz or jaman?
Yes. Next time you're in udaipur / mumbai / malegaon / aurungabad / hyderabad /london / birmingham / toronto /connecticut or anywhere are reformists are, you're invited to attend one. Write to me on this board and i'll put you in touch with the right person.

Do ur children go to any kind of madarsaas?
Yes. Madarsaas are held in every refomrist community.

Till which Dai do u think nass has reached?
Reformists believe in the nass upto the current 52nd Dai, Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.

Do you believ Imamau-zaman would reveal himself from veil (parda)?
Yes. We believe in the Fatimid doctrine and heritage upto the current dai.

Do you agree that Dawat no silsilo is till qayamat or zuhur of Imam-u-zaman?
Yes.

Do not hesitate to ask more questions.

[Gulf]

The way of answering is good, I must say.
No More Question tiil,
We get authentification of your answers from other reformist. especially from Tahir/LM/S.Insaf

.

[anajmi]

I would like to add that Progressives like Humsafar can be just as good as the Orthos when it comes to theatrics like purjosh maatam. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The answers to most of the other questions by Humsafar are not faithful to his beliefs. He has just made sure that the answers are politically correct.

[Humsafar]

Anajmi, you're absolutely right. That's exactly what I've been telling these orthos: not to judge reformists by their "personal beliefs" and statements on this board. Rely on the official reformist position, which I've been trying to state.

[anajmi]

Personally, I judge people by their personal beliefs. I'd rather know the whats in your heart than what's on your lips. Cause if they aren't the same, you are just another untrustworthy politician. But that's just me. I am sure the orthos are dumb enough to just rely on your official position.

[allbird]

Originally posted by Humsafar:
Your questions show you know nothing about the reformists or the reform movement. Please, please do some homework. I'll try to answer your questions, and some more:

Progs do u have any specific mosque where u offer namaz?
Reformists have mosques where they are in substantial numbers and can afford to build one. In udaipur they have 7 mosques (in not more). All reformist mosques are owned by reformist jamaats - and not by the Dai.

Who does imamat for u in Namaaz? Are there any Aamils among u?
Any person with sufficeint knowledge in Islam and its rituals can lead the prayers. We've sepcial programmes to train people in conducting religions ceremonies and rituals.

Who conducts Waaz on Moharram specifically on Ashura?
There are many knowledgeable persons and islamic scholars who do vaaz, and usually have more interesting and informative things to say about the history and background of Karbala than the usual tear-jerking script doled out by the Sayedna.

Do you perform Matam at least on Ashura?
Yes.

Do you go for Ziyarat of our past Dais & hudood fouzala?
Yes they go wherever they can like in Udaipur, Galiakot, Ahemdabad. They would like to go to other ziyarats but the Kothar's "baraat" system would not allow them.

Do u have any kind of Niyaz or jaman?
Yes. Next time you're in udaipur / mumbai / malegaon / aurungabad / hyderabad /london / birmingham / toronto /connecticut or anywhere are reformists are, you're invited to attend one. Write to me on this board and i'll put you in touch with the right person.

Do ur children go to any kind of madarsaas?
Yes. Madarsaas are held in every refomrist community.

Till which Dai do u think nass has reached?
Reformists believe in the nass upto the current 52nd Dai, Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.

Do you believ Imamau-zaman would reveal himself from veil (parda)?
Yes. We believe in the Fatimid doctrine and heritage upto the current dai.

Do you agree that Dawat no silsilo is till qayamat or zuhur of Imam-u-zaman?
Yes.

Do not hesitate to ask more questions.

One question.

Is tahir and JC part of your movement. And their words reflect your doctrine ?

Since they are the largest contributor and defender of your movement.

[tahir]

Albird,
I am simply a dawoodi bohra, who are you?

[pro_pig]

tahir,I am simply a dawoodi bohra, who are you?
correction i am simply a progressive dawoodi bohra

[accountability]

well tahir said, he is member of shabab, he is a "truebohra". He can not be a member of progressives. when he said, he is in shabab, you will have to own him.

[Humsafar]

Anajmi, I can understand why you think the way you do given the level/stage of your consciousness. You tend to view a person from a narrow, one-dimensional, single-track perspective. There is more to a person than just his/her beliefs. We all live complex, multi-layered and at times contradictory lives. At an intellectual level I may not believe in a 'revealed' organised religion, but at a social level I need the kinship and community in which I was born. I may reject the "religious" doctrine around which my community is organised but it does not mean I also reject the bohra culture and values I have inherited. I may not believe in the Imam or the concept of Dawat but I accept this narrative as my cultural inheritance. My bohras heritage is a given - nobody can take it from me nor can I deny it even if I wanted to. In fact I cherish my bohra background and its many wonderful, unique and at times cute traditions. My involvement in the reform movement must be understood from a humanistic, social justice point of view - and of course from the point of view of my personal history. The reform movement is a very limited, if tortuous, project: to bring social reforms within the existing setup. I try to articulate its position. Please focus on the message. Do not shoot the messenger.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

I see your point. In a way, we all live double lives. I take part in a lot of these cute traditions that I don't believe in too. Although over the last few years my participation has dramatically reduced, and that is probably because I have been away from my family.

And I am not shooting the messenger, just trying to make clear that one needs to believe in the messenger to be able to believe in the message.

For eg. you spoke about madrassas being held in every reformist community. What are you teaching those children? Can you be trusted to impart the correct religious knowledge knowing the fact that you don't believe in it?

[JC]

Well I am Prog or not is irrelevant. What I stand for is Death to Kothar, Death to Kothari system, End of this corrupt and power-money-hungry regime. To me Burhan is as bad as a corrupt dictator who thinks of himself as God. Bohraism is a sham, a tool for loot and plunder, a Jageer of so-called Royal Family who are screwing people royally. Even Kothar and Burhan are worse then worst of dictators as they screw in the name of Religion, in the name of God.

What they say is if you are being screwed by others is bad, bad, bad - but what they stand for is if an a****** with STD is standing, doing matam and shouting Yosain, screwing you forcefully is OK - that pain will take you to Janat!!

[truebohra]

Progs, y are u torturing urself by being of part of culture, tradition & belief system u don't believe in. Y dont u disown them. U cannot bcoz ur afraid & selfish. U need the security of the community & society. Y target ur frustration & helplessness towards Sayedna (tus). Many of u said that they are part of shabab & r wajebat paying & so on. If u have conviction in ur belief & u think u can take bohras on right path them come out in open. Y r u having a two faced existence. You either have faith or u don't have there is nothing in between. Once u say believe in dawat & again say u don't. Y say have seven masjid in udaipur & when sayedna (tus) constructs masjid u make an issue out of it. U make mockery of jaman system of orthos (as u call them). Any zikr of hussian will move any human & u say sayedna waz is "tear-jerking". U say nass has rightly reached up till 52nd dai & u are abusing the same dai in this forum. U say believe in imam would reveal hi mself & then u make mockery out the same belief system. Mr humasafar said his stand is official stand of progressives. Who decides the official stand? There must be some individual or organization which takes stands on behalf of the progressives. My question to that official person many of ur sympathiser are makeing mockery of ur offical stand. what do u do about it?

[Humsafar]

Anajmi, I don't teach at the madarssa. Wouldn't be caught dead in one. The majority - 99.9 percent - of reformists do not think like me. My kids go to a madarssa and I see no harm in them learning the basics of their religion.

As for the credibility of my message, you could question it only if I'm telling people to covert to 'bohraism' and telling then how wonderful this religion is. As you know, the reform movement is mainly concerned with social and peripheral religious issues, and when I state and claify those issues my 'person beliefs' do not and should not come into the picture.

[Humsafar]

truebohra, all this is too much for your simple mind to understand. My advice is that pls read up on the history of reform. You can start from here: http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/issues.htm.

You are welcome ask questions, don't go into a rambling diatribe.

[anajmi]

I believe that most orthos are in it only for the sake of convenience. As Humsafar put it, "We all live complex, multi-layered and at times contradictory lives."

For an average bohra what is more convenient? Being a part of the mainstream dawoodi bohras or join the reformists? Neither of them are actually concerned with the truth, are they? Why join the reformists when it is so much more easier to enjoy the cute bohra traditions from within the mainstream and since one doesn't believe, it actually doesn't matter if the kothar and the Dai are corrupt and keep the bohra bucks for themselves. Bohras probably consider them as dogs that need to be fed and taken for a walk. Chances are, that the dog you feed isn't going to bite you.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

I don't teach at the madarssa. Wouldn't be caught dead in one.

When I asked the question "What are you teaching those children?", I was using "you" for the progressives in general and not you in specific. I know you wouldn't go near a madrassa. In fact, I would shut down the madrassa if I were to find you in it.

[porus]

anajmi,

Having given up the belief in the religion of the Bohras, what is it that keeps you tethered to them, not least, in the vigor with which you participate on this, putatively, a Bohra forum?

[Humsafar]

I would shut down the madrassa if I were to find you in it.

it actually doesn't matter if the kothar and the Dai are corrupt and keep the bohra bucks for themselves.

Actually it does matter. It's a question of ethics and abuse of people's faith (religion). In other words it's a fraud. You should be as much concerned as with it as you would be with financial or political frauds. These things should matter to every thinking person. Reformists are after no grand "truth" - they are just trying to relieve bohras from the oppressive yoke of the clergy.

Speaking of convenience, how many believers - no matter which faith - actually care about "truth"? Most accept the faith they are born and brainwashed into, and spend their lives going through the paces of "practicing" their religion.

[anajmi]

porus,

I have given up on Bohraism and not on bohras.

Humsafar,

It's a question of ethics and abuse of people's faith (religion).

I am not talking about the people with faith. They will find a way out like I did. I am talking about most orthos who probably are like you and do not have faith but take part in majlises and other cute bohra traditions for the same reason that you do. For them, which would be more convenient? Feeding the kothar once in a while or revolting against them? Of course, there are exceptions, those who may have suffered at the hands of the kothar and had reached a boiling point.

Out of his or her own free will, only the person with faith will care to join the reform movement.

[anajmi]

porus,

I am more of a bohra than you or Humsafar and I will let you figure out why.

[accountability]

Few or none religion can stand the test of truthfulness. Religious scholars, though teach half heartedly value of truth, but are not ready to apply the same standards to their own preachings, once asked questions and logic of their preaching, they would either excomminucate the person, and least will choose not to answer.

All religions claim, that their founders had one or more miracle(s). But are not ready to authenitcate them by date and time and place. show me the path that moses created in red sea, you would say it was uncreated soon after, how convinient, OK show me the exact date and place of happening, you will call me kafir.

Now ask yourself, why did you call me kafir, wouldn't it be natural to ask for dates and place of miracle.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:

I have given up on Bohraism and not on bohras.

In that case, you are like me and Humsafar!

Originally posted by anajmi:

I am more of a bohra than you or Humsafar and I will let you figure out why.

Actually, you are less. I gave up on Bohraism but continue to participate in their Jamaat. You gave up Bohraism and now participate in non-Bohra Jamaats.

Yes, yes, I know you will say you are closer to them because you believe in Allah etc. OK, I grant you you are more Bohra than me, and you are welcome to it.

[kalim]

I would like to add a few points to what Humsafar had said. First, most bohras (orthodox/progressives) are highly religious. People do not join the progressive movement because they want to break away from religion, but simply because they can no longer stand the tyranny of the da'i and his administration. Some people (like me) move away completely from religion of their birth. In this case we realise that truth is not to be had from blind faith in religions, be they Islam, Christianity or Judaism. Religions are not concerned with truth, only propagation of dogma. People do not believe because they find compelling reasons to, but simply because they are conditioned since birth. We should be more concerned with the here-and-now and live a good life now, rather than wait for a hypothetical heaven full of comely boys and virgins.

Second, there is no way one can call the generic bohra beliefs (leaving aside the recent particular cases of da'i worship) as unislamic. There are no objective criteria to do so. Who is to define true Islam? Muslim First or Anajmi? These two seem to feel as if they have received direct revelation from god and are in a position to judge everyone. If one looks at traditional bohra fiqh books like "Dai'm al-Islam" they are no different that the sunni hadith sources. They are simply a collection of hadith, with emphasis on hadith of the Imams in addition to the Prophet. In fact, as I keep repeating this, there is very little difference in outward practice of religion between bohras and sunnis. The duat have also preserved this through the centuries. Only recently has the attraction to amassing vast wealth crept into the system. In fact, in case of religion, there is no way to judge one from the other. All can't be correct but all can be false. For most bohras, however, their own religion is the absolute truth as is for most sunnis, shia, christians etc. Judging between them is as futile as counting the feathers on the tooth faerie's wings.

Finally, it should not be thought that corruption will not exist if the Imam suddenly appears (or did not exist when he was present). If we look at history we see that many powerful generals and courtiers essentially controlled the state and access to the Imam. In case of Sayedna Shirazi one finds that he could not get to the Imam for more that a month due to the machinations of the vazir Ibn Tustari. Most financial wealth was controlled by the vazirs and army generals. This is not too different than what is happening now, except that the da'i seems incapable (or not interested) to put a stop to this. Anyway, this surge in interest from orthodox may be due to the upcoming birthday of their demi-god in a weeks time or so. Maybe they have decided to spam this board with nonsense as a part of "taabudaat" amal. In a certain sense they are doing a great disservice to their community by presenting an ignorant picture of actual bohra beliefs, culture and philosophy. Maybe all bohras are becoming this stupid. If so god help them.

I have questions of my own for the da'i worshippers:

(a) Have you heard or read anywhere in traditional Fatimid sources that the da'i is the owner of your soul, property, life? If so where? Please supply accurate references. If not how do you reconcile Sayedna Taher Saifuddins statements in the Chandbhoy Galla case (see article on this website posted last year)?

(b) On what basis do you reconcile the da'i's rethoric of being a "angel of mercy" with all the violence he has inflicted (physical and mental) on his followers? All this is well documented and have you read of the various court proceedings, justice reports etc?

(c) Please provide references from Dai'm al Islam to justify the practice of arbitrary zakaat figures lieved by the da'i and his representatives. Also, is the section in the dai'm on not frightening the person who is giving the zakaat no longer valid? If so when was it made void? Please elaborate.

(d) Please provide references to the book which says (as the da'i and his administration claim) that the da'i will surely take you to heaven only if you know his name and yet remain ignorant of religious philosophy. Also, are you aware that the great duats of the past have emphasised rigorous learning as the means of salvation rather than just chest thumping and jamaan gobbling? In fact, one who dies ignorant of the reality of religion, according to Fatimid philosophy, never rose above the level of animals? Is you faith any better than the beasts who simply live their lives mechanically without reflection or understanding?

Please provide answers to these for our illumination.

[Muslim First]

.Br. Kalim
AS

You wrote

There are no objective criteria to do so. Who is to define true Islam? Muslim First or Anajmi? These two seem to feel as if they have received direct revelation from god and are in a position to judge everyone.

Very dramatic.
I can assure you that I have received no revelation.

There are no objective criteria to do so.

Read Qur'an and Hadith. Requirements to be Muslim are crystal clear.

Open up another forum and we wiil discuss

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
.

Read Qur'an and Hadith. Requirements to be Muslim are crystal clear.

.