Ismali Faith as per Yasmin

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<br>Yasmin posted 08-08-2002 09:22 PM ET (US) <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>I am an Ismaili living in Canada. I have noticed a lot of Ismaili bashing here. I am not sure if it is out of ignorance of our faith or intolerance. I am prepared to answer whatever I can to this forum about our faith.<br>Ya Ali Madad. <br>porus posted 08-08-2002 09:32 PM ET (US) <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Neither is anyone on this ignorant of Aga Khani religion nor are they intolerant.<br>Some specific AgaKhanis were ridiculed for their intolerant stance towards others and for claimimg to be the only true Muslims.<p>That is all. <p>But, if you care to answer:<p>Have you heard Aga Khan talk about Quran and give explanations of its verses? If so, what did he say?<p> <br>Yasmin posted 08-08-2002 10:06 PM ET (US) <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>The Imam has not visited us in a religious capacity in Canada for the last 10 yrs. <br>He does not recite the koran, we believe He is the dynamic koran. Whatever He tells us is as good as it is from the koran. <br>anajmi posted 08-08-2002 10:46 PM ET (US) <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Has he written a book something like "The Quran According to the Aga Khan" or anything similar? <br>porus posted 08-08-2002 11:44 PM ET (US) <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Does the AgaKhan have any function other than being a religious leader? Does his teaching extend to every aspect of life as does the teaching of the Quran?<br>Why does Aga Khan keep his shoes on when entering JamaatKhana? If JamaatKhana is a Masjid, in the Muslim sense, Allah commands that we took our shoes off.<p>Does Aga Khan lead prayers and if so, what dua does he recite aloud to lead the congregation?<br> <br>Muslim First posted 08-09-2002 06:58 AM ET (US) <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>In Islam divorce is permissible but Allah is not pleased by the divorce (Saying of Rasool SAW. I will post exact wording if needed)<br>Question: If HH is leader of true Islam (As per his followers on this Board) why did he divorce his wfe of mother of his children?<p>Does this set good example?<p>Does that mean Aga Khani's can descard old wife just like that and get a new stremlined model?<p> <br>Muslim First posted 08-09-2002 06:59 AM ET (US) <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Correction<br>Question: If HH is leader of true Islam (As per his followers on this Board) why did he divorce his wife and mother of his children?<p><br> <br>Muslim First posted 08-09-2002 07:07 AM ET (US) <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Why does HH own race horses?<br>[This horses race on public races courses and millions of dollars are wagerd. Prize money is product of this illicite money. This is contrary to Quran and sunnah of Prophet saw (HH claims to be from prophet)]<p> <br>

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Yasmin posted 08-09-2002 07:58 AM ET (US) <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>anajmi:<br>No He has not written any book, but whatever He says, (we call it farmans) we follow.<br>porus:<br>He keeps his shoes on because that is His place. We do not call jamatkhana a masjid. Though we remove our shoes before we enter.<br>Muslim First:<br>There is no point in being in a marrigae if it is not working out. By the way, we do not indulge in His personal affairs. He is our Imam and we follow whatever He says.<br>Again, racing horses is His personal hobby.<br>We change according to the times we live in. That is why we always have a living Imam.

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What does Hazir Imam being 'Dynamic Quran' means?

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Yasmin,<p>I every ismaili like this hafeez character?<p>Remember when somebody is chosen to be a leader then the leader is supposed to have no personal life. Specially if he is a religious leader then everything he does or says reflects on his religious beliefs.<p>Aga Khan is a political leader, a welfare specialist, but he is not a religious leader, specially not of muslims. Ismailis, may be, but nobody over on this board, except ismailis consider ismailis to be muslims.<p>Do you have these farmans written somewhere alongwith their interpretations?<p>Does the holy quran play any part in an ismailis life?

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Yasmin,<p>I every ismaili like this hafeez character?<p>Remember when somebody is chosen to be a leader then the leader is supposed to have no personal life. Specially if he is a religious leader then everything he does or says reflects on his religious beliefs.<p>Aga Khan is a political leader, a welfare specialist, but he is not a religious leader, specially not of muslims. Ismailis, may be, but nobody over on this board, except ismailis consider ismailis to be muslims.<p>Do you have these farmans written somewhere alongwith their interpretations?<p>Does the holy quran play any part in an ismailis life?

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Do you agree that Islam as was followed by the prophet is completely different than what is followed by the Ismailis?<p>Do you agree that religion plays a very small part in an ismailis life, including that of Aga Khan?

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Anajmi, <br>Stick to calling Ismailis - non-muslims! It is easier and does not entail using the brain!<p>Our two line expert says:<br>"Do you agree that Islam as was followed by the prophet is completely different than what is followed by the Ismailis?<br>Do you agree that religion plays a very small part in an ismailis life, including that of Aga Khan?"<p>I believe anajmi is making this point:<p>-Anajmi & his tribe follows Islam as followed in the 7th century;<br>-Religion plays a major part in his & his tribe's life!<p>So anajmi, <br>What kind of RESULT has this produced?<p>Brain-dead idiots like you and your tribe with beliefs to match!<p>

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Beavis,<p>Quit bullshitting (even though I know that you are not capable of anything else) and go splash some camel urine on your face. Let the Ismaili warrior Yasmin answer my questions and keep your donkey ass out of an intelligent conversation that we are trying to have.

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And if you are the result of some great religion then answer my questions, else quit bullshitting and go splash some camel urine on your face.

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Anajmi<br>>>Aga Khan is a political leader, a welfare specialist, but he is not a religious leader, specially not of muslims. Ismailis, may be, but nobody over on this board, except ismailis consider ismailis to be muslims.<p>I dont think anybody has implied that He is a leader of the Muslim Community, no He is not. I know how much they would want Him to lead them but He is an Ismaili leader. That too a religious leader for the Ismailis. Lets have this distinction between Ismailis and Muslims.<br>You have to understand that as Ismailis, we have the privilage of the Deities from the East and Mideast. He and His ancestors are the 10th reincarnation of Vishnu God and you know the rest of the history that Aly had Allahs Noor which is now in the Imam of The Time. So how can we not be religious. We are religious as well as the most previlaged.<br>>>Do you have these farmans written somewhere alongwith their interpretations?<br>No, They are His guidence to us. <br>>>Does the holy quran play any part in an ismailis life? <br>We neither read nor understand the koran, for us His word is final and the faith we have is unquestionable. We would feel very privilaged to give our life for His sake, so you understand the magnitude of our commitment.<br>>>Do you agree that Islam as was followed by the prophet is completely different than what is followed by the Ismailis?<br>Of course it is different, we change according to the environment and the age that we live in.<br>When He preaches to us, it is specific to the city where he is in. Example, if he suggested that we should wear warm clothing in the months of Sept to March, then that does not apply to the people of Kenya as it would be very hot at that time of the year.<br>I am not hear to argue and it is not my nature, but if you feel you need any clarification, I will try and avail it to you. I do not question you on your faith, I have no right to do so and neither will I critisize it. Fell free to ask any questions.<br>Ya Ali Madad.

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Pardon my typos in the previous post.

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Yasmin,<p>I congratulate you on your intelligent responses which are both clear and cogent.<p>Hafeez, who wants to be an Aga Khani, could model himself on you with great advantage.<p>Thank you.

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<br>So Agakhanism is a different religion and distinct from Islam?<p>I thought Ali was Kali Avatar! (See Nizari Post)<p>Do you believe in Avatar (Rebirth)?<p>BTW Muslims Do not.<p>Do you have any restriction in food like Halal meat? Can you eat pork? If not why? Pigs are bred cleanly and meat is withourt harmful germs due to refrigeration.<p>Can HI absolve you of your sin?<p>Do you make cnfession of sins to him?<p>Do you get holy water sprinkled on you?<p>How does water get holey?<p>Do you say you are not Muslim but a Ismaili?<p>Is Ismailism a new religion?<p>Every religion has a holey book. Does Ismalism has one?<p>BTW i feel same way as Br. Porus do.<p>

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Muslim First posted 08-10-2002 07:21 AM ET (US) <br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>>>So Agakhanism is a different religion and distinct from Islam?<br>I guess you now know it is. We have trimmed out a lot which is not of significance.<br>>>I thought Ali was Kali Avatar! (See Nizari Post)<br>It is Naklanki Avtar. Here is a link which I want you to read and understand the ruling of the Supreme court of India in the 1800's. http://ismaili.net/Source/hbibi1.html<br>>>Do you believe in Avatar (Rebirth)?<br>BTW Muslims Do not.<br>Yes we do, that if you do not serve the Imam in a manner He prescribes, then you will have to "come back" to pay your debts.<br>>>Do you have any restriction in food like Halal meat? Can you eat pork? If not why? Pigs are bred cleanly and meat is withourt harmful germs due to refrigeration.<br>It is a matter of personal choice, I don't think people go out and buy pork, but there are a lot of products that contain pork products and we do use them, such as jello which contain gelatin, derived from the marrow of the bones of pigs. As for halal meats, it is a personal choice, no hard and fast rules.<br>>>Can HI absolve you of your sin?<br>As I mentioned earlier, He is The Absolute, He can forgive your sins.<br>>>Do you make cnfession of sins to him?<br>Sometimes when He is visiting and if you get an opportunity, but if not His representatives in the jamat khana can do that. <br>>>Do you get holy water sprinkled on you?<br>This is done in every aspect of your life, at birth, every month and during the funeral.<br>>>How does water get holey?<br>His name is recited upon it and He will sometimes send a bottle blessed by Him. This is also the water we drink in very small quantities on special occasions, birth, ervery morning and even as a person last drink during or just after his death. <br>>>Do you say you are not Muslim but a Ismaili?<br>We dont claim to be muslims, we call ourselves Ismailis.<br>>>Is Ismailism a new religion?<br>I would not say so, it is a offspring of islam and hinduism. Please read the link I attached above.<br>>>Every religion has a holey book. Does Ismalism has one?<br>Yes we do, It was printed in Gujarati and it is called Noor E Mubeen.<br>>>BTW i feel same way as Br. Porus do.<br>Thank you. I am sure not just hafeez but anyone would fit in.<br>

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Muslim FIRST says:<br>"So Agakhanism is a different religion and distinct from Islam?"<p>MF,<br>Just like 7th century is DISTINCT from the 21st century - there can ZERO comparision between ISLAM as followed by the agakhani ismailis and sunni-ism.<p>The former or Ismailism is all embracing and evolving while the other (Sunni-ism)is RIGID and for all eternity in the "ways" of the 7th century!<p>MF - You are welcome to call us non-muslims, I do not have any issue with it! I doubt if we shall ever agree - ever!<p>HOWEVER, do take note - Yasmin has pulled the carpet from under you and claimed as her opinion ONLY the following:<p>"We dont claim to be muslims, we call ourselves Ismailis."<p>or,<p>"I dont think anybody has implied that He is a leader of the Muslim Community, no He is not."<p>Despite the fact that I do not care much about the sunnis or the wahabis, we are of Islam and Shia Islam to be precise and The Hazar Imam is a leader of the Muslims and rest of Humanity!<p>FINALLY,<br>=====<br>The most attractive facet of the Ismaili tariqa is the role of the Intellect.<br>Everyone has a right to his/her opinions and to follow edicts of the faith as per her/his own intellect & capacity! NOthing is ETCHED in stone.<br>

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Yasmin,<p>Thank you for your responses.<p>Now that you have made clear that Ismailis have nothing to do with Muslims or Islam or the Holy Quran or the Prophet and his traditions, I guess I will splash some water on my face.

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Beavis,<p>You may want to take note of the fact that Yasmin has pulled the carpet from under you and claimed as her opinion the following:<p>"We dont claim to be muslims, we call ourselves Ismailis."<p>Yasmin,<p>One more question for you, instead of Ya Ali Madad, don't you think a better slogan for the Ismailis would be "Har Har Mahadev"??

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anajmi,<p>Yaar - nobody wants to be associated with the likes of you! It is clear as the day is clear! How many times have I said this here?<p>Go drink some of that imported Saudia 100% Urine recommended by Sunnah and REFLECT upon it!

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Mahadev if I am right means Maha=Highest Dev=Lord. Yes it would be fitting.<br>>>"We dont claim to be muslims, we call ourselves Ismailis."<br>Define Muslim and I will tell you if it fits us or not. I have just learnt of the 5 pillars and lets start with the 5 Pillars of Islam. We have a totally different interpretation of that.<br>Kalima=Ours is thre lined and it is like the Catholic Trinity. (Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one) Bear witness about Allah, Mohamed is his prophet and Aly is Allah. (That muslims would call Blasphemy) So that make us different.<br>Salaat=We sit crosslegged and pray like in a yoga position, we dont have to cover our heads and we have no bending or forehead touching the ground. So That makes us different.<br>Fasting=It is not compulsory to fast. We believe that was prescribed upon the arabs because they overindulged in eating and that was to cut that down. So That makes us different.<br>Zakat=We pay 12.5 percent of our income to the Imam of the time. He decides where that money should go and how best to utilize it. We leave it to him. So That makes us different.<br>Hajj=We don't go for hajj. Our interpretation of hajj is to enrol in a majlis that is conducted on the 9th of every month of the islamic calender.<br>Does that clear your doubts about why we are ismailis and that we are different.<br>Ya Ali Madad or Har Har Mahadev.

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Please, we can only discuss ourselves intelligently if we curb our anger and hostility towards others. Lets not succumb to our emotions and lash out.<br>My philosophy is "We may all be right, and I dont want to talk about why/how you are wrong. If you see my point of view (you dont have to agree) and I will see your pont of view". Like the famous Steven Covey says "Seek to understand first".

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Yasmin's response to MF:<p>>>Is Ismailism a new religion?<br>I would not say so, it is a offspring of islam and hinduism.<p>Attempt to integrate the two religions in South Asia has impressive pedigree. Mughal King Akbar tried with Deene Ilahi. His attempts were continued by his descendants, including Dara Shikoh, son of Shah Jehan.<p>Guru Nanak's vision clearly has integrative power of both religions.<p>Many saints like Kabir and Sai Baba are claimed to be their own by followers of both faiths.<p>Muslim Rishis of Kashmir and Pranami faith, where the idea of Kalki Avatar possibly originates from, are other examples.<p>Perhaps this discussion can be expanded to include discussions of interfaith harmony and implications to South Asia, where majority fo us, Ismailies , Bohtra originate from.

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yasmin is not Ismaili. he is dummy of Muslim first. After loosing all his hope to convert bohras to a wahabism and take them away from islam he named himself as yasmin. Do u feel bohras are fool? Ismailism as per yasmin is not at all ismailism, neither it is nizari ismailism nor bohra's ismailism.

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The thought that Yasmin is not Ismaili did also occur to me. My suspicions were aroused because no Ismaili readily answers questions about their faith.<p>But is it Muslim First? I doubt it. Only Yasmin can re-assure us and I am willing to give him/her the benefit of the doubt.

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You make sense, yasim is not agakhani, Aga khan claims himslef as muslim in front of press. But how can you say that she/he is Muslim First. He/she can be any one from kothar, sunni, anti-agakhani or what ever. I am not supporting Muslims First nor I am opposing you but there are many other possibilities.

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What make you think i am MF. Here is something that will make sure that I am an Ismaili. Today we have a majilis called Baitul Khayaal and I am not sure if any non-ismaili knows about it. Does anyone know (I am not sure if anyone here cares), but the term of the Mukhi (Mr. Alnashir Visram)of Thorncliffe Jamat Khana in Toronto was extended for another period of 3 yrs. This was announced in JK on Friday, a message from the Imams office. This only an ismaili can know and I am sure MF is not an Ismaili.I Dont know why it is an issue of my being an Imami Ismaili.<br>Ya Ali Madad.

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Porus, what more proof do you need that I say the way it is. I dont care what our image is supposed to be. We are what we are and I for one will not beat around the bush.<br>We have progressed a lot in the last 165 yrs and the pepole in the communities we lived in can vouch for that.<br>Ask me and I will tell. I just dont want my fellow Ismailis to feel that they have their backs against the wall when questioned about our faith. If we are different, we admit we are and our progress is not only visible but I bet to a lot very envious.<br>What else do yu want to know about us? I think there should be no fears about practicing your faith.

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Thank you Yasmin for that re-assurance.<p>You mentioned that you sit cross-legged for prayer. Do you have a sort of 'altar' around which you sit? I have heard that there is some form of altar which may carry Aga Khan's photo.<p>Are the sexes segregated during prayer? If so, is this traditional or is there no objection to sexes mingling (sitiing side-by-side) during prayer?

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Yasmin, I agree all religions should practise openly and should have the freedom to do so. If we did so, then people will se that we harbor no ill-will against anybody else. That our practises are designed for our unique way of knowing God.<p>Ismailies have as much right to practise their religion as Bohras and dare I say Wahabis. Though I suspect Wahabis will not return the favor.

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Porus, the altar you are refering to is called Takht, which no longer exists in our Jamat Khanas. We did have them in every JK with the Imams picture on it, but since 1976 we have minimized the pictures on the walls in the JK and the takhts have been removed. The only pictures of the imam we have are on the sides of the JK and not in front or back.<br>The men and women do not sit together (next to each other)and pray, they have their own space. The JK is basically divided into two havles (without a partition) and we sit on our side and the men on their side.

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Yasmin/Porus,<p>Let me ask you guys a question, and this is with regards to the point that you have made about people should be free to follow their own religion. I have absolutely no problem with that, but here is a catch, what happens when a religion says that its followers need to ensure that everybody follows the right path? Do these people follow the religion or not?<p>Also, can there be more than one true religion? Can there be more than one true God? Cause by saying the Allah and Ram are different names of the same Supremem Being, we are trying to fool ourselves.<p>