Is Rajm Islamic?

[Guest]

Whilst following up one of the links provided by Muslim First, I came across the question posed above. I researched a bit further and found opinion to split almost equally. Therefore I ask the learned, practising Muslims on this board, is Rajm an Islamic way of punishing adulterers?

[Guest]

No. It is based on a hadith which goes against the Quran. Unfortunately most Muslims prefer to follow hadith and completely disregard the clear Quranic ruling on this matter.

[Guest]

>No. It is based on a hadith which goes against the Quran. <p>Please explain, and if possible quote the ahadith and ayaat in question.<br>Shukran wa salaam

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<br>Punishment according to Quran, verse 24/2:<p>"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment." <p><br>Punishment according to Umar and followed by most Muslims:<p>'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.<p>- Sahih Muslim, Chapter 4, Book 017, Number 4194<p><br>(Note that according to the above hadith, Umar claims the 'verse of stoning' is 'missing' from the Quran. So much for the allegations that Shia believe Quran is incomplete.)<p>

[Guest]

Thank you Muslim. There is also another hadith (no 4191: <p> ’UbAda reports the Prophet as aying: “Receive teaching from me, receive teaching from me. Allah has ordained. . . . When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female, they should receive one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of a married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death” .<p>Both these are also in sahih Bukhari (vol . I had also read somewhere (the source is not readily at hand but I could find it if anyone considers it absolutely vital)that Umar said had the Quran not prescribed stoning then he would have prescribed it himself!<p>Perhaps the verse was abrogated. No doubt Muslim First will be able to get an answer from his scholarly contacts. Brother Muslim First please resolve this riddle of the missing verse. Thank you

[Guest]

Further to my previous post, here is the source:<p>Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, vol 9, p212:{Between Traditions 9.281 and 9.282}<p> (21) CHAPTER. If a judge has to witness in favor of a litigant when he is a judge or he had it before he became a judge (can he pass a judgment in his favor accordingly or should he refer the case to another judge before whom he would bear witness?). And the judge Shuraih said to a person who sought his witness, "Go to the ruler so that I may bear witness(before him) for you." And 'Ikrima said, "Umar said to 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf, 'If I saw a man committing illegal sexual intercourse or theft, and you were the ruler (what would you do)?. 'Abdur-Rahman said, 'I would regard your witness as equal to the witness of any other man among the Muslims. 'Umar said, 'You have said the truth.' 'Umar added: If I were not afraid of the fact that people may say that 'Umar has<br>added to the Quran extra (verses), I would have written the Verse al-Rajm (stoning to death of married adulterers) with my own hands'

[Guest]

This board is becoming irresistible again! Surely the learned followers of ahadith must have an answer on rajm. This is what I found in addition to what has already been posted above:<p>Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: "Two men had a dispute in the presence of Allah's Apostle. One of them said, "Judge us according to Allah's Laws." The other who was more wise said, "Yes, Allah's Apostle, judge us according to Allah's Laws and allow me to speak (first)" The Prophet said to him, 'Speak " He said, "My son was a laborer for this man, and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and the people told me that my son should be stoned to death, but I have given one-hundred sheep and a slave girl as a ransom (expiation) for my son's sin. Then I asked the religious learned people (about It), and they told me that my son should he flogged one-hundred stripes and should be exiled for one year, and only the wife of this man should be stoned to death " Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to Allah's Laws: O man, as for your sheep and slave girl, they are to be returned to you." Then the Prophet had the man's son flogged one hundred stripes and exiled for one year, and ordered Unais Al-Aslami to go to the wife of the other man, and if she confessed, stone her to death. She confessed and was stoned to death. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Punishment of Disbelievers at War with Allah and His Apostle, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 826)"<p>Narrated Ash-Shaibani: "I asked 'Abdullah bin Abi 'Aufa about the Rajam (stoning somebody to death for committing illegal sexual intercourse). He replied, 'The Prophet carried out the penalty of Rajam (stoning to death),' I asked, 'Was that before or after the revelation of Surat-an-Nur? (Noble Verse 24:2)' He replied, 'I do not know.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Punishment of Disbelievers at War with Allah and His Apostle, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 824)"<p>The second hadith poses a secondary question: are the sihahi sittah an authoritative source for understanding the Qur'an?

[Guest]

Alirght, come on guys.<br>The hadiths that have been posted are atrocious, do you really think the Prophet ordered ppl to be stoned to death?<p>68:14 - And thou [Muhammad] (standest) on an exalted standard of character.<p>33:21 - Ye have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern of (conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day and who engages much in the praise of Allah. <p>21:107 - We sent thee not but as a mercy for all creatures. <p>Do you really think the "mercy to the worlds" would order people to get killed in that fashion? Come on ppl, use your intellects.<p>25:30 - “The messenger said, “My lord, my people have deserted this Quran."<p>Believe in the quran - the words of allah. the hadith is a bunch of corrupt fairytales created to please the corrupt rulers of the time.<p>A prominent Muslim scholar of our times, Dr. Muhammad Muhsin of the Islamic University, Al-Madina Al-Munawwara, Saudi Arabia writes:<br> <br>"It is said Imam Bukhari collected over 300,000 hadiths and he himself memorized 200,000 of which some were unreliable. He was born at a time when Hadith was being forged either to please rulers or kings or to corrupt the religion of Islam... "<p><br>

[Guest]

According to Muslim and ibn Hanbal: <br>Abi Said al Khudri reported that the Prophet said, <p>"Do not write down anything from me except the Quran. Whoever writes down anything other than the Quran must erase it."<br>

[Guest]

Dear Nizari,<p>Thank you. We are waiting for the followers of ahadith (you know who they are) to respond. If you believe every hadith in sihahi sittah then clearly the HQ is incomplete

[Guest]

2:39<p>But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) such are the dwellers of the Fire, they shall abide therein forever.<p>2:81<p>Yes! Whosoever earns evil and his sin has surrounded him, they are dwellers of the Fire (i.e. Hell); they will dwell therein forever.<p>2:119<p>Verily, We have sent you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) with the truth (Islâm), a bringer of glad tidings (for those who believe in what you brought, that they will enter Paradise) and a WARNER (for those who disbelieve in what you brought, they will enter the Hell-fire). [] And you will not be asked about the dwellers of the blazing Fire.<p>2:126<p>And (remember) when Ibrâhim (Abraham) said, "My Lord, make this city (Makkah) a place of security and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allâh and the Last Day." He (Allâh) answered: "As for him who disbelieves, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the torment of the Fire, and worst indeed is that destination!"<p>And This is all from just half of the 2nd Surah, the entire quran is yet to go.<p>The prophet was a mercy, sure, then why is he talking about the torment of the hell fire? For the first 13 years of his life he preached the religion, no injunctions, like fasting, praying etc were there. Then he brought the injunctions and the punishments for people to learn and mend their ways.<p>I guess people have still not learned.

[Guest]

Who is more merciful, Allah or the Prophet. If Allah could've prepared hell for the sinners, all the prophet did was give a little demonstration for people to learn.<p>And mercy is for those who repent.<p>And remember the prophet has also said that if you are punished for your sins over (and this is only for those who die Muslims)here then you will be spared in the hereafter.

[Guest]

Butthead, You misquoted 25:30<p>25:30<p>""And the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will say: "O my Lord! Verily, my people deserted this Qur'ân (neither listened to it, nor acted on its laws and orders).""<p>You will understand if you go a couple of verses earlier.<p>25:27<br>""And (remember) the Day when the Zâlim (wrong-doer, oppressor, polytheist, etc.) will bite at his hands, he will say: "Oh! Would that I had taken a path with the Messenger ( Muhammad SAW)[].""<p>25:28<br>""Ah! Woe to me! Would that I had never taken so-and-so as a friend!""<p>25:29<br>""He indeed led me astray from the Reminder (this Qur'ân) after it had come to me. And Shaitân (Satan) is ever a deserter to man in the hour of need.""<p>25:30<br>""And the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will say: "O my Lord! Verily, my people deserted this Qur'ân (neither listened to it, nor acted on its laws and orders).""<p>""The prophet will say"" and not ""The prophet said"" as you say. Changing the tense from future to past can change a lot of things. Ismailis are good at that.<p>And who has abandoned the practices of the prophet except one - horse racing. The Ismailis ofcourse!!

[Guest]

The learned one's stooge has commented, totally off-topic as usual. When will the great man himself join the debate?

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<br>Adultery-Quran References<p>1. (Also see) Debauchery, Fornication, Lewdness, Prostitution, Sex Abuse<br>17.32, 25.68, 25.69, 25.70, 60.12<br>2. Evidence of husband for proving that committed by wife<br>24.6, 24.7, 24.8, 24.9<br>3. Punishment for, exemplary<br>24.2<br>4. Punishment for accusing chaste women of<br>24.4, 24.5<br>5. Punishment for by women<br>4.15<br>6. Repenting for wrongly accusing chaste women of<br>24.4, 24.5<br>7. Testifying to<br>4.15<br>8. Testimony of those who accuse of without bringing four witnesses<br>24.4, 24.5<br>9. Wife's defence regarding charge of against her by her husband<br>24.8, 24.9<br>10. Witness of<br>24.4, 24.5<br>11. Women, by<br>4.15<br>Quraran-<br>1. ADULTERER<br>24.2<br>2. Marriage of the<br>24.3<p>Adulteress<p>1. (Also see) Prostitute<br>24.2<br>2. Marriage of the<br>24.3<br>3. Punishment for the<br>4.15<p><br>*******************************************************<br>Adultery-Shahi Bukhari<p>1. 'The punishment of those who wage war against Allah'<br>B 8.794<br>2. Not to cauterize the amputated limbs<br>B 8.795<br>3. Not giving water to renegades<br>B 8.796<br>4. Branding the eyes of those who fought against Allah and His Apostle<br>B 8.797<br>5. The person leaving evil deeds<br>B 8.798, B 8.799<br>6. The sin of adultery<br>B 8.800A, B 8.800B, B 8.801, B 8.802<br>7. The stoning to death of a married adulterer<br>B 8.803, B 8.804, B 8.805<br>8. An insane adulterer should not be stoned<br>B 8.806<br>9. The stone is for the adulterer<br>B 8.807, B 8.808<br>10. Stoning at the Balat<br>B 8.809<br>11. Stoning at the Musalla<br>B 8.810<br>12. No punishment after repenting to Allah<br>B 8.811<br>13. If a person confesses but does not specify<br>B 8.812<br>14. Only touching or winking<br>B 8.813<br>15. "Are you married?"<br>B 8.814<br>16. To confess being guilty of adultery<br>B 8.815, B 8.816<br>17. The stoning of a married lady who became pregnant<br>B 8.817<br>18. 'The woman and the man guilty of fornication'<br>B 8.818, B 8.819<br>19. Exiling sinners and effeminate men<br>B 8.820<br>20. Legal punishment in the absence of the ruler<br>B 8.821<br>21. 'If any of you have not the means to marry'<p>22. If a lady slave commits adultery<br>B 8.822<br>23. She should not be admonished or exiled<br>B 8.823<br>24. The legal regulation for non-Muslims<br>B 8.824, B 8.825<br>25. Accuses a wife of adultery<br>B 8.826<br>26. Teaching manners to one's family<br>B 8.827, B 8.828<br>27. Killing the man seen with one's wife<br>B 8.829<br>28. A roundabout way of saying something<br>B 8.830<br>29. Punishment to learn good manners<br>B 8.831, B 8.832, B 8.833, B 8.834, B 8.835, B 8.836<br>30. The verdict on suspicion of adultery<br>B 8.837, B 8.838, B 8.839<br>31. Accusing the chaste women<br>B 8.840<br>32. Slandering the slaves<br>B 8.841<br>33. The absent ruler ordering punishment<br>B 8.842<p>

[Guest]

025.030 <br>YUSUFALI: Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense." <br>PICKTHAL: And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account. <br>SHAKIR: And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing. <p>Interesting that Pickthal and Shakir use a different tense from Yusufali. So now we are down to whose translation is correct?<p>Thank you Muslim First for a very detailed index to the HQ and Bukhari. I believe the relevant verses and hadiths had already been quoted by others; it was your comments on whether there ever was a verse regarding Rajm that most of us were waiting for<p>

[Guest]

the bhajiya is hot, take care brothers or you may burn your tongues.<p>No, there is no verse regarding Rajm, and there is no verse regarding masturbation or watching porn either. But for intellectuals it becomes difficult to understand.

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And no I wasn't off topic, but as I said for intellectuals it is difficult to understand.

[Guest]

MUSLIM FIRST<br>You posted the interlinking verses from quran & hadiths re: RAJM; <p>did you use a site or a software to EXTRACT that?

[Guest]

<br>Name of software is 'Alim'<p>By ISL Software Co.<br>WWW.Alim.org<br>800-443-3636<br>301-622-3915<p>

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<br>Sorry Its <p>ISL Software Corp.<p>www.islsoftware.com<p><br>http://www.netspective.com/web-islsw/catalog.cfm?p=isl_alim6<p>