Imam from Seed

Guest · #61

Dear Nizari, But the difference is that the Imam is self-realized. His mind is in unison with his Soul or Spirit. Normal human beings do not realize the essence of their spirit. Therefore we only see the material of this world. our goal is to become self-realized/ achieve unity with Allah - it is through this that man realizes his true origins.---Actually this is completely false account of human self realization. This is actually what makes us different from animals. We realize that we are of another dimension..and possess a spirt..this is basic human nature.

Guest · #62

But Qiyam, if Messengers and prophets are higher than Imams, why was Abraham made Imam after he was already a messenger and a prophet?

Guest · #63

We are different from animals because we have an intellect. Animals have souls/spirits too.The diffrence between us and Imam is that the Imam realized the true essence of his spirit. And since the human spirit is of Allah, the Imam knows Allah.we on the other hand do not realize the essence of our spirit. We know it exists because we are taught that. But self-realizatoin is realizing one's own essence and understanding it. "He who knows himself knows his Lord."

Guest · #64

why was Abraham made Imam after he was already a messenger and a prophet? Good question. Could it be that Imam referred to is not the same as the Imam in Ismaili/bohra theology?

Guest · #65

Either Allah was making Abraham an Imam in a different sense than Bohra understandingorthe position of Imam is HIGHER than the position of Prophethood and Messengership - which is what we Ismailis believe.

Guest · #66

Self-realization is indeed the goal of religion. If Imam/Dai leads you to this goal, then Ismaili interpretation of religion is valid. On reaching the goal, interpretation will become immaterial as realization of unity will be beyond any theology.The question is then how would a person seeking self-realization proceed beyond observing everyday rituals. We all know that simply observing rituals will not guarantee it? My experience of Bohra rituals is that no such preparation for self-realization is offered or even considered. So the religion becomes simply a self-serving mulladom.

Guest · #67

In our Ismaili faith, we observe the ritual prayers, but every night from 3 AM - 6AM, our JamatKhana is open for meditation (ibadat). This is the foundational practice of our faith where the Imam fulfills his true spiritual purpose.

Guest · #68

This is for Qiyam to see:taken from atmosphere.be"Imamat is a special office of Vicarhood or Regency of God/Allah, which needs not manifest as Masih, but rather according to Ismaili traditions, represents the Throne of Allah on the Earth and is the Visible Sign. This Imamat according to Qu'ran was established with Adam and was transmitted through the descendants of Ibrahim. It is believed that the initiation of Ibrahim by Melkizedik (Malki Tzaddik, the Tzaddik King) was the transmission of Imamat to Ibrahim, who himself was both a Prophet and Nabi. This King of Salem, i.e., Melchizedik, initiated Ibrahim who then transmitted two different lines of inheritance, one through Izaak and one through Ismail. It can be said that Jethro of Midian was the Imam who conferred the holy office of Prophethood to Moses and the Imamat to Aaron, both the sons of Amram, Imaran and the ancestors of Hazrat Maryam, mother of Issa, daughter (descendant) of Imaran. ""Yet Issa spoke of the Paraclete who is Muhammad, and with him the line of Prophecy in the Ibrahamic tradition was sealed, leaving established the line of Ali ibn Abu Talib as the line of Imamat, an Imamat which was present from the beginning and can be seen as subtext throughout the Torah, the New Testament and the Qu'ran."

Guest · #69

This is an extract from muslimphilosophy.com"The line of imams thus continued through Hasan and Muhammad in the lords of Alamut. Muhammad put the imam, and specifically the present imam, at the centre of the doctrine of the qiyama. The resurrection consisted in viewing God in the spiritual reality of the imam. This doctrine entailed the exaltation of the imam over the prophet, which became characteristic of Nizari thought. At the same time a new figure, the imam-qa'im, was introduced in the cyclical history. The imam-qa'im in the various eras was identified as Melchizedek (Malik al-Salam), Dhu 'l-qarnayn, Khidr, Ma'add, and, in the era of Muhammad, as 'Ali. He was recognized by the prophets in each era as the locus of the divinity. In the qiyama the imam-qa'im, i.e., the present imam, who is identical with 'Ali, appears openly in his spiritual reality to the believer, who in his spiritual relationship to the imam is identical with Salman"

Guest · #70

Brother qiyam,I was planning to leave these boards but as I had started this thread I thought I would continue for just a little longer.You have now confused many of us. Let's try and follow the theory in discrete steps.Imam has to be from Ali and Fatima's seed. All agree on this.Does Imam also have to be from the previous Imam's seed (directly as you put it)? If the answer is yes then either Hassan was not an Imam or Hussein was not an Imam (in which case all Shias should be following the King of Jordan not the Aga Khan, not the gayab Imam nor the Imam in satr). If Hassan was not an Imam then the Ithna-ashari's imam in gayab is the 11th Imam not the 12th!If Imam need not be from seed of previous Imam then what was the point of your post about the Nizaris 48th and 49th Imam? Incidentally if you consider Hassan to be Imam then your question should refer to 49th to 50th Imam as Hassan is not included in the Nizari count."During the first ghaybat of Imam Ismail until Imam Mahdi..the Dais were not allowed to reveal the location or name of the Imam az'Zaman at that time either. This maybe the case today." How long was the period between Ismail and Mahdi? And was this satr not imposed by the actions of Musa Kazim and his successors? What keeps the present Imam in satr?If the Imam has not disclosed to you who is or where he is , how do you know if the present Imam is the son (eldest or otherwise), grandson or great grandson of the preceding Imam? For all you know you may already have a female Imam!We have a saying "Sheeshe ke mahel me rekar doosron pe pathar nahin marna" People in glass houses.........

Guest · #71

Those who castigate Ahidht as 7th century rubbish or garbage use same Hadit's (ones selected by them) to justify exhistance of their sect.For example Nizarai posted "Quranic verse Hadi-se-Qudsi – “Had it not been for thee (Muhammad), I would not have created the world! And, HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR ALI, I would not have created thee.”First of all let me explain in layman's term what Hadit-Qudsi is.Hadith-Qudsi is a Hadith in which Prophet SAW qoutes Allah SWT's words. They are still not Quranic Verses.You can not selectively use some Ahadith and castigate others.So tell me whose religion is based on ahadith only?Is it mainstream Islam?. If you take out Ahadith, there is enough guidence in Quran and Prophet SAW's sunnah to prectice the religion.If you take out Ahidth then where is support for Imamat. In Quran there is no mention of it and we have thouroghly argued it on this Board.

Guest · #72

Muslim First,"You can not selectively use some Ahadith and castigate others.So tell me whose religion is based on ahadith only?Is it mainstream Islam?. If you take out Ahadith, there is enough guidence in Quran and Prophet SAW's sunnah to prectice the religion."Two questions:Do you therefore believe every single hadith recorded in Bukhari?Where do you get the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) from if not from hadiths?Wasalaam

Guest · #73

Dear Nizari and Porus, "But Qiyam, if Messengers and prophets are higher than Imams, why was Abraham made Imam after he was already a messenger and a prophet?"---Firstly, Abraham was Imam, Nabi, and Rasul...this is why he is higher. These are stations added to Imamat. This is why the Prophet said there will be no nabis after me. If no nabi..then no rasul...so all that is left is the Imamat. Secondly, there is no evidence that Abraham was already a nabi or rasul before Imam. Only an Imam would understand the prophecy or message to begin with."We are different from animals because we have an intellect. Animals have souls/spirits too."---this is what I meant by self realization, by using the intellect, we come to know our true purpose and being."The diffrence between us and Imam is that the Imam realized the true essence of his spirit. And since the human spirit is of Allah, the Imam knows Allah." ---No the last part is not true. Our souls are not part of Allah. Our souls are part of the Universal Intellect or Soul...created by Allah. The Imam is part of this and is aware completely of it. "we on the other hand do not realize the essence of our spirit. We know it exists because we are taught that. But self-realizatoin is realizing one's own essence and understanding it."---Correct. And according to the Ismaili teachings...this self-realization is first reach by practicing the amals of Allah. With this our intellect is strenghten..and we are able to understand our actual self and being. The more intense and firmly the ibadat is practiced...the closer one gets to this realization (some call it nirvana). This is what is meant by weak and strong iman.

Guest · #74

Brother qiyam,Now that you have answered Nizari and Porus, will you be clearing up the confusion you have caused to some of the others like me? I am waiting to find out whether you think the 12ers are wrong, the Nizaris are wrong or the whole concept of Imamat is flawed?

Guest · #75

Dear Gursevak,"Does Imam also have to be from the previous Imam's seed (directly as you put it)?"--It is stated via hadiths that the line of Imamat is from the progency of Muhammad thru Ali and Fatima. When I stated "directly"..I was explaining the belief of the Agha Khannis' current doctrine of Imamat.Does Imam also have to be from the previous Imam's seed (directly as you put it)? If the answer is yes then either Hassan was not an Imam or Hussein was not an Imam (in which case all Shias should be following the King of Jordan not the Aga Khan, not the gayab Imam nor the Imam in satr). If Hassan was not an Imam then the Ithna-ashari's imam in gayab is the 11th Imam not the 12th!---During the Imamat of Hassan..Husayn was not an Imam. It was only after the death of Imam Hassan that Imamat was passed to Husayn. Again I remind you, both are from the progency of Muhammad, and the Imam (as appointed by Allah) choose the preceding Imam...it is not inherited. This is Twelver and Bohra doctrine in Imamat."If Imam need not be from seed of previous Imam then what was the point of your post about the Nizaris 48th and 49th Imam?"---Because the doctrine of Agha Khannis stated it is the direct lineal descendant of the previous Imam back when the Musta'Ali and Nizar split. This was more recent modified to direct or remote lineal descendant. This is current Agha Khanni doctrine."Incidentally if you consider Hassan to be Imam then your question should refer to 49th to 50th Imam as Hassan is not included in the Nizari count."---Nizaris don't consider Imam Hassan an Imam...but consider Ali the first Imam."How long was the period between Ismail and Mahdi?"---roughly 200 years."And was this satr not imposed by the actions of Musa Kazim and his successors?"--I was actually support by Musa Khadim at the request of Imam Jafar Sadiq. This was to hide the preceding Imam Ismail from the Abbassids."What keeps the present Imam in satr?"---Allah only knows."If the Imam has not disclosed to you who is or where he is , how do you know if the present Imam is the son (eldest or otherwise), grandson or great grandson of the preceding Imam? For all you know you may already have a female Imam!"---It is recounted that to recognize the face of the Imam is to see the light of Allah.

Guest · #76

Qiyam"--I was actually support by Musa Khadim at the request of Imam Jafar Sadiq. This was to hide the preceding Imam Ismail from the Abbassids."But then Musa Khadim himself did not go into Satr?"---It is recounted that to recognize the face of the Imam is to see the light of Allah."I don't understand how this answers my question. Are you now giving the light of Allah a masculine form?

Guest · #77

EXAfter passing away of Prophet SAW, he had taught many sahab's in prayer, and in quranic interpretations. He had sent many learnd shab's to different centers to lead new muslim Jammat. So his teaching was very much alive.Many Hadith were just writing-up of those oral tradition.I have not read all of Bukhari's Ahadit, since I am not a Mulla. I am just a regular religious person who is satisfied with Dhikr, Namaaz, Fast and ZAkat. If I have special problem eitherr I look-up or ask sholar's at our center. (BTW we do not have paid Imaam at our center-Jamaat thinks they are more trouble then help)To answer your question is all Bukhari's ahadit correct?. I say Allah knows the best.

Guest · #78

Muslim First,"After passing away of Prophet SAW, he had taught many sahab's in prayer, and in quranic interpretations. He had sent many learnd shab's to different centers to lead new muslim Jammat. So his teaching was very much alive."But all these people died and to keep these traditions alive the books of hadiths were written. So we come back full circle; to understand the Qur'an we need to refer to ahadith."If I have special problem eitherr I look-up or ask sholar's at our center."So instead of calling teir Imams Imam or calling Mirza Saheb the Messiah, we call them scholars then it is OK to follow their advice?Both you and Qiyam say "Allah knows best" and so He does as He is Allah. You know I have heard non-Muslims ridiculing us that if the Qur'an is the final book of revelations, why does it not contain clear answers to all questions. There is not going to be another Prophet to explain the aya we do not understand so how are we going to live by the Book?

Guest · #79

Qiyam,"I was actually support by Musa Khadim at the request of Imam Jafar Sadiq. This was to hide the preceding Imam Ismail from the Abbassids"Does this mean that Musa Khadim recognised Ismail as his preceding Imam or simply that Ismail was intended to be the Imam but pre-deceased Imam Jafar Sadiq? Either way Musa Khadim's followers do not recognise Ismail as an Imam. So after Ismail's death, his son, whose name escapes me, would no longer have Musa Kadhim's support and so Gursevak is right in suggesting that the Imams were in satr for fear of attack fromMuas Khadim's successors.

Guest · #80

Dear Qiyam,You wrote that Imam, Nabi and Rasul is in ascending order of rank. Hence, as Muhammad was the last Nabi, there can be no more Rasul.So what do you call the message that Imam gets from Allah, say, about choice of successor. This is risaalat, which is theyn conveyed to people through the successor's announcement.What reference are you quoting for your statement that the rank is like that?

Guest · #81

Prophethood and Messengership are given to a Messenger of God delivering a specific message/law of God to the people.Imamat on the other hand is higher than both Prophethood and Messengership. Prophets and Messengers were told to deliver the Message to their nations or peoples. While Imamat is Divine Leadership of all nations. that is why it is higher than prophethood and messengership.The Prophets and Messengers deliver the message. The Imams interpret the message and guide by it according to the changing times, thus making the message current at all times. That is the real meaning of Islam. Not this 7th century nonsense.

Guest · #82

Go back to the situation of Abraham. He was made "Imam to the Nations" after he was a Prophet and a Messenger. This is proof that Imamat is higher than both those positions, because, he had to attain the Prophethood and Messengership before becoming the Imam. This Imamat was then promised to him and his seed. And this promise is eternal.

Guest · #83

As for the Musa Kazim issue. The proclaimed successor of Jafar Sadiq was Ismail. This was the nass. Imam Jafar Sadiq knew of the Abbasid plans to kill Ismail and wipe out the line of Imamat. So he sent Ismail away to Syria. When Jafar Sadiq died, Ismail was not present to claim succession, and Musa Kazim did not claim it either. It was the majority of the followers of Jafar Sadiq that saw Musa as the last man standing, so they decided to follow him. The Twelver line of Imamat endured heavy persecution from the Abassids. They ended up providing valuable cover for the Ismaili Imamat as it lay the groundwork for the advent of al-Mahdi and the Fatimid State. The Ismailis Dai spread the dawa secretly all over and yet this was all done in the name of Muhammad bin Ismail who was expected to return as the Qaim. Finally, when Imam Mahdi manifested openly, he explained that conveying the dawa in the name of Muhammad bin Ismail had been a concealment practice itself and that the Imamat had in fact continued. Those who accepted this became known as the Fatimid Ismailis and those who rejected Imam Mahdi and awaited Muhammad bin Ismail became known as the Qamartians.Shortly after the Twelver Imamat died out, the Ismaili Imamat openly manifested and inaugurated the most glorious period in all of Muslim history.

Guest · #84

Dear Gursevak,"But then Musa Khadim himself did not go into Satr?" ---It was not the purpose for him to go into satr...he was the "decoy" for the Abbasid attacks against the Imams."I don't understand how this answers my question. Are you now giving the light of Allah a masculine form?"---I have admitted I didn't know the answer for femine versus masculine. I would lean towards Br. Porus' reason: "The reason why a woman cannot be Imam is that her husband has authority over her in accordance with laws of God. And no one can have authority over an Imam."

Guest · #85

Dear ExMuslim, Musa Khadim, according to Twelvers sources, recognized Imam Ismail. In fact, Imam Ismail proclaimed in public his Imamat. Secondly, he didn't predecease his father...his brother Abdullah did.

Guest · #86

Musa Kazim NEVER claimed to be Imam. He was out there as a decoy. Him and his descendents took a beating from the Abbasids. They were really covering up for the real line of Imamat that would later flourish.As soon as Musa Kazim died, Imam Muhammad b. Ismail also went into Satr because despite the other line of Imamat, there were still some searches for the Ismaili Imams.

Guest · #87

Dear Porus,"So what do you call the message that Imam gets from Allah, say, about choice of successor. This is risaalat, which is theyn conveyed to people through the successor's announcement."---No, this is inspiration to the Imam..not a risalat of laws. Risalat as you know means book of messages/laws for mankind. Just you say..Allah can speak to anyone."What reference are you quoting for your statement that the rank is like that?" ---The order is that because one cannot be one without the other. Think about it. To be a messenger (rasul) you must be a nabi (prophet) to receive the message to preach. In order to tp receive and preach you must be an Imam. There is no ranking like in the army...they are parts of the same thing.I shall research some books to quote you a direct quote.

Guest · #88

Dear Nizari, To the public he did claim Imamat for the sake of Imam Ismail..this after Imam Jafar Sadiq did the funeral of Abdullah and Imam Ismail left for Basra.

Guest · #89

Qiyam,I am not aware of any authentic sources that show Musa Kazim actually claimed to be Imam. But it doesnt make a difference, because, the Twelver line was the decoy.

Guest · #90

Qiyam,what is the difference between the Wasi/Wali and the Imam.Don't they recieve the same level of inspiration?This concept is from the old Fatimid theology. however, theology before that in the time of Ismail and Muhammad b. Ismail, they had no hierarchy like the Fatimid time.Even we have developed theology and to us this heirarchy is not written in stone. It is simply a philosophy of the Divine and material worlds.

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