Re-evaluating the Namaz

[znanwalla]

MF....why does it bother you to question about Imam Ismail ? or whether he had died or not during the lifetime of Imam Jafar as Sadiq as alleged by some? is it any of your business ?

How do you know he had actually died? and if he had then where would his grave be? in arabia? or in Syria?

Imam Ismail came to the throne of the Ismaili Imamat in 148 A.H. and was appointed an Imam during the lifetime of Imam Jafar as Sadiq. As Abu mansoor was still trying to chase Imam Ismail, he had left Basra for Salamiyah.

From Imam Ali to Jafar as Sadiq the Imams resided in Arabia. However after that the next five Ismaili Imams i.e. from Shah ismail to Imam Raziyuddin Abdullah, they all lived in Salamiya.

Due to the difficult and dangerous conditions prevailing, Imam ismail first went to Basra and then to Salamiya and so had moved away from Arabia.

There is absolutely no doubt to the Ismailis that the appointment (Nass) was made on Imam Ismail. There is no denial of this designation of ismail.....infact even most of the Shias agree to this designation.

Now some Historians will tell you that Imam Jafar as Sadiq had seven sons of which Ismail al-Aaraj (the lame) was one and Ismail al-Akbar (also known as Abdullah al-Aftah) was another and with Muza kazim they were outstanding but it was Ismail (the lame) who had died and not ismail al-Akbar (who had been appointed as Imam).

Those who followed Imam Shah ismail are the ismailis and today since 1400 years their line of imamat still continues .....

Imam as-Sadiq has said:

“If one of you brought me the head of my son, then do not doubt that he is
the Imam after me,” or his statement “The one who is between my two hands
here, he is the Imam after me, so what ever you take from him, you have
taken it from me.” (Ja’far ibn Mansur Sara’ir wa Asrar an-Nutaqa 248-256).

You will find the above in the Sh'ia books !A survey of all the historical sources indicates one astounding fact: that with the exception of the mainstream Twelvers, all commentators have reported that the nass (designation) for Imamah was originally given to Isma’il.

As for the Twelver sources themselves, they are explicit that Isma’il was the most beloved son of Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq, and that his followers believed that Imam Isma’il would be the Imam after him. This, at the minimum, is what the historical sources confirm. The Twelver hadith encyclopedia of Bihar al-Anwar, as well as ancient Twelver historical study.

The Ismailis hold that Isma’il was the designated Imam after Ja’far, as the sons of Ja’far also agreed. They differ among themselves, however, as to whether or not he died during the lifetime of his father. Some of them say that he did not die, but that his father had declared that he had died to save him from the ‘Abbassid caliphs; and that he had held a funeral assembly to which Mansur’s governor in Medina was made a witness.

Some, on the other hand, say that he really did die. Designation, however, cannot be withdrawn, and has the advantage that the Imamah remains in the descendants of the person designation, to the exclusion of others (Ash-Shahristani Muslim Sects 144)

As such, we find that the non-Twelver sources are in agreement upon the Imamah of Isma’il, and that the Twelver themselves acknowledge the high position that Isma’il held with his father.

It is not surprising, then, that objective academic researchers have come to the same conclusion as the Ismailis: Divine nass was originally given to Imam Isma’il.

Ivanow writes:

According to the overwhelming majority of the available
sources, both sectarian and of their opponents, Imam Jafar appointed as
his successor his eldest son Ismail, by his first wife, a highly aristocratic lady, great grand-daughter of Hasan.

It is clear from these narrations that the Shi’a community was well-aware of the intense devotion that Imam Ja’far had towards his eldest son, and there was widespread belief that Isma’il would succeed his father as Imam.

What these evidence establishes, then, is that the Shi’a community believed that Imam Isma’il would succeed Imam as-Sadiq.

This, in and of itself, is a proof that the nass of Imam Ja’far was given to his son
Isma’il.

Mainstream Twelvers cannot argue that Imam as-Sadiq did not
know; that their hadith literature is explicit that every Imam knows with
absolute certainty who will inherit the Nur e Imamah after him Imam as-Sadiq said: “The Imam knows the one who will be the Imam after him, and so he passes his inheritance on to him.” (Al-Kulayni Al-Kafi 1:277).

[znanwalla]

"...and they cannot intercede except for him whom HE accepteth.." (Sura al Anbiya)

" There is no intercessor save by HIS permission..." (Sura Yunus)

The principle is also mentioned in many of the Prophet's sayings:

"My Intercession is especially for the perpetrators of major sins in my community"

" I have received five gifts from God (one of which) is that of Intercession which I have in store for my community.

Intercession is to be seen as a ray of hope, in whose light forgiveness can be sought.

A glance at the pages of history reveals that even companions of the prophet (peace be on him) used to ask him in their own lifetime, for his intercession and Trimidhi relates from Anas b Malik: .."I asked the Prophet to intercede for me on the Day of Judgment. He said:.." I shall do so"!...so I asked him, "where will I find you?"...he replied: "By the side of the sirat".

The sons of Jacob, after the disclosure of their wicked acts, asked their father to implore God's forgiveness of them. Jacob accepted their petition and promised to do so at the appointed time.."

" And if when they had wronged themselves they had but come unto thee and asked for forgiveness of God and the Messenger had sought forgiveness for them, they would have found God Forgiving, Merciful.." (Sura al Nisa)

"And when it is said unto them: Come ! The Messenger of God will ask forgiveness for you, they avert their faces and thou seest them turning away, disdainful..." (Sura al Munafiqun) -

It is thus clear that refusing to seek any such intercession is the sign of a hypocrisy.

"O ye who believe, be mindful of your duty to God and seek the means "al-wasila" of APPROACHING HIM and strive in HIS way, in order that ye may succeed..."

[Muslim First]

Sister ZN

They are all fairy tales.

That is why majority f Muslims did not subscribe to then and do not subscribe to it now.

Take care.

[Muslim First]

ZN

Wasila
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=4265

[znanwalla]

MF,

You are free to pursue your own tales ....are the Quranic ayats also fairy tales?

"Whoso obeyeth the Messenger hath obeyed God.." (Sura al Nisa)

" WE sent no messanger but that he should be obeyed by God's leave.." (Sura al Nisa)

" Who is he that intercedth with HIM save by HIS permission.." (Sura al Baqara )

" Anf those who govern the event..." (Sura al Naz'iat)

" And they cannot intercede except him whom HE accepteth"..( Sura al Anbiya)

"And trust in the Living One who dieth not" (Sura al Furqan)

"Truly those who swear alegiance unto thee O ! Prophet, swear allegiance only unto Allah..." (Sura al Fath)

"God bears witness as do also the angels and the MEN OF KNOWLEDGE, UPRIGHT IN jUSTICE...."( SURA AL iMRAN).....So are these angels and men of Knowledge ?

"And WE chose them and guided them to the right Path.." Sura al An'am)

"And he whom God guideth, for him there can be no misleader..." (Sura al Zumar)

"Verily God hath preferred Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of Imran above HIS creatures..." ( Sura al Imran)

"We sent thee not save as a MERCY for the worlds.." (Sura al Anbiya)


"SAY I ask you no reward for this, save love for Kinsfolk.." Sura al Shura)

"Between them is a Veil and on the heights are men who know them all by their marks..." (Sura al Ar'af)

"SAY Unto God belongeth all Intercession (Sura al Zumar)..."Who is it that can Intercede with HIM save by HIS leave?.." (Sura al Baqara)


MF...are these ayats from the Quran also fairy tales?...No they are not ! and if humankind was able to have an ummediated relationship with God, then HE would not have sent so many Messengers and Prophets !

[znanwalla]

MF...Isn't it ironical that when we offer you logical explanation based either on Quran or the history or the ahadith, they suddenly become "fairy tales' for you simply because we negated your assertions successfully and you have nothing better to say than to just call what we write as "fairy tales' ! do you really think people are so ignorant on this forum that they cannot judge?...zn

[anajmi]

znan,

You do not have the knowledge about the final revealed ayahs of the quran. Which is why much of what you say can be dismissed as fairy tales. Seek for the ayahs and you might find them. Till then you are unfit for discussion.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

Now ofcourse I can understand you are having anxiety attacks....you are itching to know about them but i will not tell you....you better stay ignorant....zn

[anajmi]

You will not tell me because you do not know. Why the secrecy if you know? What kind of a cult do you belong to that needs to stay hidden? Do you practice human sacrifice? Lewdness? If not then why all these games? Simple. It is because you simply pretend to know but in reality you do not know. That is why you are unfit for discussion.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

The reality is that we know ! however rare a fact may be, it is nonetheless a fact and the fact is that we know but you don't and it is not our duty to tell you this now....zn

[Omar Bin Abubakar]

Hey Zan,

Quick question..

When you say "we know", does it mean that you have actually seen the correct order of the Ayahs in the true quran? does the quran you use have the ayahs arranged differently? and have you seen this quran?

[anajmi]

omar bhai,

What you read from the Ismailis is bull crap. They have seen the real quran just much as I have seen a unicorn in my backyard, and I don't even have a backyard.

They don't even know the final revealed ayahs in the quran which is easily available on Amazon, let alone the ayahs in some hidden quran in fantasy land. They will lie and decieve and cover and cower behind their falsehoods. They are unworthy of a discussion.

[znanwalla]

I do not feel obligated to answer your question....If you think what I am saying to you is something unusual or unique then I think you folks are labouring under a misapprehension...the fact is that your text is not in its chronological order....can you deny this?

Or do you think that Sh'ia Scholars of the past and the close companions of the Imams had not not been recording ....the narrations of the Imams are considered by all Sh'ias as religious proof texts on the basis of which one must act and is thus not unique to only ismailis like someone here is barking incessantly due to his sheer ignorance and malice.....

The Imams of the Ahl al bayt are not mujtahids or muftis and so for atleast the Sh'ias what they conveyed were truths, based on which certain jurisprudential decisions have been achieved and it has become a veritable treasure for the Scholars.....

Imam Ali was a companion of the prophet throughout the prophet's mission and so most Sh'ias know this that the Book has remained with Hazrat Ali and after his martyrdoom it has been handed down from generation to generation in the family of the Imam and the Imams of the Ahl al Bayt have infact made several references to it and the Book was shown to certain of their companions also....so don't worry if I have seen it or not ! the issue is you don't have Allah's Book !

Allah's Book is a persipicous Book ( complete, clear and flawless)...Your text is Not and those who are barking here could not answer even a single question of ours.....that is why I said that the fact may be rare but the fact still remains a fact that your scribes screwed up and that is why today you don't even know ( or are obfuscating) as to which are the final ayats revealed to the Prophet....zn

[Omar Bin Abubakar]

Hey Aj & Znan,

Thanks for replying Guys.

Or do you think that Sh'ia Scholars of the past and the close companions of the Imams had not not been recording ....the narrations of the Imams are considered by all Sh'ias as religious proof texts on the basis of which one must act and is thus not unique to only ismailis like someone here is barking incessantly due to his sheer ignorance and malice.....

But didn't the close companions of the prophet write down and compile the quran? Its hard to believe that Allah would chose and let his last prophets closest companions to screw up such a important revelation!Doesn't make sense....Maybe 'm simplifying it way to much but it seems basic logic that God would chose the right people (the 4 Caliphs) to help his last prophet doesn't it...

Znan, this means you hold the right quran in its right order?yes? are there additions or ayahs left out according to you?

I have heard from one of my university friends (A Bohra guy) that passages about immamt had been left out....but if the Imam or his people have those passages/ayahs wouldn't they have brought it forth by now..

The thing is we all want to be one the right path and are constantly in search for it and I would not hesitate to follow an imam if the quran leads me to, but it doesn't and if there is a group of people who has such information i really don't see the point in such secrecy

[Admin]

anajmi/znanwalla,
Please stop repeating yourself. If you can't move the discussion forward the we'll have close the thread.

[anajmi]

Admin,

That is how a discussion with znan always goes. We can't move forward but in circles. This discussion isn't moving forward unless znan can produce the final revealed ayahs of the quran. If you want to close the thread, please go ahead.

[znanwalla]

Can someone clap with one hand? now that is what you are trying to say najmi....so don't repeat huh !..zn

[anajmi]

Sure you can clap with one hand. This is knowledge that is hidden from you as you do not know the final revealed ayahs of the quran.

Admin,

Please stop deleting my posts. Either close the thread or disable my ID, but don't make me waste my time.

[Admin]

We'll keep deleting all posts - by anyone - that keep repeating the same thing.

[anajmi]

Well that makes it clear. You are going to be busy deleting posts. Because from now on I am going to be keeping copies of my posts and if I realize that it has been deleted, I will post it again.

[Admin]

anajmi, if you do that then we'll warn you and if you still persist you'll find yourself suspended.

[anajmi]

I would prefer getting suspended, instead of spending time over here and then finding my posts deleted at the whim and fancy of the Admin. Please allow me one last post before you suspend my ID.

[Muslim First]

.
EXPOSING THE 3 SALAAT THEORY

http://www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaat ... xposed.htm
.

[turbocanuck]

.
EXPOSING THE 3 SALAAT THEORY

http://www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaat ... xposed.htm
.

Not very surprised..........."FREEWEBS"!! anyway.......is Tasbeeh same as Salaat?

take care brother.......MF

Turbo

[znanwalla]

MF....Is the link you are showing us superior than the Quran? do please answer me and I will show you what the Quran says and infact I have done so in the past also....but maybe your memory is now fading with all the freebies from arabia....hahahahahah!!!

zn

btw....I just remembered....First of all your institution of five daily prayers seems to have a persian Origin as Allah mentions salat in the Quran and nowhere does HE talk of Namaz !!!...Looks like you are following the thesis and influnce of Zoroastrianism..and some of your customs are simply inherited from pagan arabia like polygamy; easy divorce and social laws which can make one only puke as they smack of animistic elements and worthless ritualistic inclinations...right MF?

zn

[znanwalla]

Mr MF.....You are only able to define yourself negatively... you are who you are because you have learnt only to hate and not to love.... and now that is the fundamental difference between us.......so how about trying some self-criticism for a change? Try and make it your cultural task now to take the bull of "backwardness and bigotry" by the horns and change your image and the distortions you have MF....zn

[znanwalla]

Mr MF....Most of what you do and follow is is not relevant to the present time but continues to reflect the outdated social and economic conditions of the pagan times (not what the prophet did or practiced)...you haven't progressed morally....you still regard women as your chattels....you think you can dispose them as you will.... you are unable to respect other faiths ...you have had very little intellectual progress as your clerical class is holding "eternal" authority over your faculties MF....truly sad !...zn

[znanwalla]

Unfortunately and this is very sad indeed that the "Religion" you try and portray is kind of based only on Fear and "terror"...fear is the parent of your own cruelty and thus it is no wonder that for you guys fear, cruelty and faith itself have gone hand in hand and you are unable to show tolerance or inclusivness to others in society....Old habits die hard ! and they die hard amonsgt good muslims like you who have made it their duty to blame their own ills on others who are more successful and vibrant spiritually ....your unrelenting stridency and the unrealness and hysteria almost to the point of self-flagellating, is simply disgusting .....zn

[Muslim First]

is Tasbeeh same as Salaat?

No.

Salat in Prophetic tradition is must.

After every Salaat Tasbih of 33 Subhan Allah, 33 Alhamdo Lillah and 34 Allahu Akbar is Suunah of Prophet.

Tasbih of Ya Ali, Ya Muhammad and Ya Maula is not a Prophetic tradition therfore it is a innovation. To take anybodies name except Allah SWT is shirk.

Take Care

[znanwalla]

STARTLING CONFESSIONS

Let us examine the personal confessions of some of the most ancient and foremost “Imams” (’Canonical’ authorities) who narrated History, Hadith (Prophetic sayings and traditions), laid down Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) and did Tafseer (explanation) of the Quran.

IMAM RAZI’S HORRIBLE CONFESSION:

Most Muslims have heard of one of the most ancient and famous Tafseer-e-Kabeer (The Great Exposition of the Quran) by Imam Fakhruddin Razi.

This Tafseer is one of the tops being followed by our Mullahs till this day.

After writing his 300 volumes, ‘the great and authoritative’ Imam confesses: “All my intellectual and supposedly logical statements in the explanation of the Quran turned out to be lame.

All the explanations of the Quran done by the so-called Imams (Tabari, Zamakhshari, Ibne Kathir, Bukhari, Muslim etc) are misguided and misleading. All of us were the tools of Satan.

Our souls were polluted by our physical desires. All our endeavors and works of this world promise to bring upon us nothing but eternal humiliation, torture and doom.”
Hadith-Ul-Quran by Allama Inayatullah Khan Al-Mashriqi, 1954 edition, Pg 190.