Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"

[znanwalla]

Najmi et al,

The Prophet brought the law to guide the men, and after him the Koranic revelation ceased and men are now left with a law, which supposedly corresponds to the exoteric aspect of the revelation.

In Islam, the door of prophecy closed with the Prophet. He was both the exoteric and esoteric source of the revelation, but in his function as revealer (Messenger) of Divine legislation he represented the exoteric aspect - I have asked you to define the difference between a Prophet and a Messenger ! You don't even know the distinction and so how can you know the Quran or even Islam for that matter?......Also our beloved Prophet (peace be on him) was human too !

So do you have any derogatory comments to offer for our Prophet, similar to the ones you have given earlier for the Imam ? Then let us hear them, one more time !let everyone hear your abuses loud and clear !

Besides, the Koran says: “And God is not going to chastise them while you are, O Muhammd among them” (8:33)......

So what happens now?

You guys claim you have the Quran but where is God saying that HE is not going to chastise you guys just because you have the "Book" - supposedly Allah's Book ? HE is talking about Muhamad and Muhamad showed you all what next to do?

Please tell me ! are you all now under chastisement as Muhamad is no longer with you? or are your scholars going to claim that this verse is "abrogated" ? hahahahha!

Will await your kind clarification !

zn

[znanwalla]

Najma et al,

“But No ! By your Lord ! They do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge in all disputes between them” (4:65). ...

So now how can you follow this part of the Quran you supposedly have and make the Prophet the Judge in your disputes - he too was human and he is no longer with you guys?

So who is now judging your disputes now? Sharia Court? Muftis? but that is not what the Quran says huh?...are you not in breach?...sure you are !

The Koranic verse, “If you should quarrel about anything, refer it to God and the Messenger” (4:59), necessitates the presence of Muhamad - but he is gone - he was human like anyone else....so now? what do you do when you quarrel ?

The Koran says: "None shall have the power of intercession, but such who has received permission (or promise) from (God), the Most Glorious" (19:87) ...

So have your sharia court and your alims or mullahs received this power or permission ? if so how and when? and if you can't show us, from the Quran, then again you are hopelessly deluded and have fallen into misguidance ! A clear and definitive breach !

You better explain as you were barking too loudly !

zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi et al....

You are arguing with AW about what is a "Kitab" and what is an "Imam" etc etc showing me how ignorant and biased you are,churning your fairy tales.....

"(Remember) the day (hereafter) when We will summon every people with their Imam (leader-witness) then, whosoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their books and they shall not be dealt with (even) a shred unjustly" (17:71).....

Do you not see a clear distinction between IMAM and the BOOK and also don't you see that there is an indication that you will NOT be able to hold the Book , if there is NO Imam with you ...and Allah says openly HE will call people only through their Imams and now you have NONE ! OMG ! what a tragedy for you guys?

btw... will your Mullahs stand for you? they themselves will need an Imam also or Allah's message is clear ? and the prophet has already said that those who die without knowing their Imam of the time and age will die the death of a pervert (ignorance).....zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi et al,

i did say you do not know the Quran ! You are empty vessels making the most noise !

The word Imam is used seven times in singular and five times in plural form in the Koran. I don't think you even know this ? Yes! Sura Yasin is just one of such verse !

Now go and listen to the arabic version of 15:79....it refers also to IMAMIM MOBEEN AND IMPLIES a path or a road - not the Book !

"And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Verily, I make you IMAM for the mankind.

Abraham said: And of my offspring? He (God) said: My covenant does not include the unjust" (2:124)....Now is the expression IMAM still unclear to you ignorant folks? Was Abraham and his offspring also not human like us all ? did God make them the IMAMS even then? Yes! is there any mention of the Book? No !

zn

[turbocanuck]

Znan, we have read in the Quran that Allah will punish those who have gone astray............now ismailis are those who have clearly displeased Allah, thus should incur His wrath.........1400 years.........still no wrath. either "their" Quran is wrong, or Allah has forsaken them...........then take a look at them.........lets see........where on this earth has allah forsaken them.........THERE YOU GO!!.............
India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal and the Maldives and Argentina and Angola and...

Someone is definitely wrong here either Allah has made a mistake...Nauzubillah OR Allah has really incurred His wrath to those gone astray in above listed countries!! i dont see ANY Ismailis incurring the wrath of Allah in any of those countries, can you?
now you have to underatand, these are no ordinary Wahhabis........they are those inbred variety whose skin is far too thick to understand.....they hate themselves...........they have NOTHING to look forward to.........no happiness or joy.......just Haraaam! this and Haraaam! That...........misery only......but then again, Allah's wrath comes in that form too.

[znanwalla]

Najmi et al,

Next time try not to waste our precious time with your incompetent arguments....it suits elsewhere in forums where your ignorance becomes "bliss" for them...here it will not work.....we know the Quran much more than you know it !...Allah is "chastising" you now without Muhamad and the evidence is all around the muslim world and this is what Turbo is referring to and frankly it is not the end also unless you mend your ways and act according to the Quran and the prophet's direction.

Now lets continue....

2. "And We made them Imams guiding people by Our command and We revealed to them the doing of good and keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve" (21:73). ....so what is Allah saying here? who is guiding and by whose Command?

"And We made Imams among them to guide by Our command when they were patient and they were certain of Our signs" (32:24)....(no mention of the Book)

"And We desired to bestow a favour .... and to make them the Imams and to make them heirs" (28:5). ( how much more clear can God be ? )( your obfuscation will not fly here pal)

5. "And those who pray: O our Lord! Grant in our wives and our progeny the comfort of our eyes and make us Imams to lead the righteous" (25:74). (again there is mention of Imams - not the Book)

And how would you also explain to us...

"NONE is there in the heavens and the earth but he comes to the All-Merciful, as a Servant.." (19:93)...

So who is this "servant" of Allah ?

And make a special note here that Allah says clearly that there is NONE in the heavens and the earth but he.......so lets see how knowledgeable you are - and God is talking of a humankind too ? so who is he?

zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

On the evidence of the Shar'iat and Tanzil, the Trust (imanat) which the heavens, the earth and the mountains were unable to accept, was accepted by mankind:

"WE offered the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains but they refused to carry it and were afraid of it; and man carried it......"(33:72

" It was only after accepting this Trust that humankind deserved the prostration of the intimate angels (mala'ika yi muqarrabin), who are the noblest in creation....And when WE said to the angels, "BOW yourselves to ADAM, they bowed themselves except IBLIS.." (2:34)

So wasn't Adam made of dust? Yes or No ? but who opposed him? IBLIS? and so what happened to IBLIS?

The angels testified to the descent of the MANIFESTATION of the person of divine Knowledge (shakhs i marifat i bari) amongst the Individuals of the human species when he appeared before them (as a human) and NOt among any other species of existents and since his appearance in this material world is because he is it's perfection, as long as this world exists, it can never be devoid of him i.e. the Imam and the Quran also confirms this..

" HE made it a Word enduring among his posterity..." (43:28).....

"and of the decree (hukm) (the offspring), one of the other..."(3:34) becomes clear...and then Sura al Kawthar also talks of abundance posterity which Allah has given to Muhamad !....

So everyone..."SAY to God belongs this conclusive proof" (6:149) and this proof is that of "alam i wahdat" and this is vouchsafed to noone EXCEPT the IMAM of the time and age !

And this ties Sura Yasin also as there exists ample corroboration within the Quran itself save the ignorants don't know this - unfortunately for them !


zn

[Muslim First]

Next time try not to waste our precious time with your incompetent arguments

ZN

To much playing with Veggie messes up your brain.

Look 7 posts of useless gibrish.

Now that you have mentioned that ahl-e-Bait is present in your JK, I will be free to discuss quality of your present Ahl-e-bait.

It will take time but you will get load of it.

Take care and veggie too.

[Muslim First]

Areef, Actually our JK type knowledge is far superior and we have proved this over and over again....do you know why? because the JK is the house of our beloved Prophet and his family and so the knowledge therefrom is obviously far superior unlike yours which is at the lower level and the world is able to judge this ...so your opinion is as worthless as its own author !

Br. Aarif

Thsi is clear invitation that ZN wants to dicuss present Ahl-e-bait that is one whose name can not be mentioned and NOORANI family.

Wasallam

[anajmi]

znan,

You have claimed that you quote fabrications. So do not expect any response from me. I have clarified the difference between prophet and messenger and even shown that Aga Khan is neither.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

Nobody has ever claimed, for your very kind information, that the Aga Khan is a Prophet or a Messenger ! The subject matter of this thread is clear though you and your friends have tried to "hijack" the thread by being abusive and callous !

I am glad to learn that you will not be able to reply to me as frankly you have no reply notwithstanding which text I quote from? even your variant and interpolated texts should have these ayats and so your argument, as always, is crappy and useless......you raised the issue of Imamat and did not stick to the subject matter under discussion and then you are whining like a spoilt brat of the medieval days....zn

[anajmi]

znan,

Allah says in the quran that he has created everything in pairs. Aga Khan has been divorced twice. Where is his pair? Answer my question and see how I take you on a roller coaster ride.

[anajmi]

Yet another major blunder by the dimwitted Ismaili. Consider what she says over here

On the evidence of the Shar'iat and Tanzil, the Trust (imanat) which the heavens, the earth and the mountains were unable to accept, was accepted by mankind:

"WE offered the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains but they refused to carry it and were afraid of it; and man carried it......"(33:72

So she is saying that this trust of Imamat was accepted by mankind. So Imams are great. However, she did not post the entire ayah. What does it say?

Get ready dear friends. Ismaili Imams are exposed by Allah one more time.


033.072
YUSUFALI: We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof: but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish;-
PICKTHAL: Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.
SHAKIR: Surely We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to be unfaithful to it and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant;
ARBERRY: We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to carry it and were afraid of it; and man carried it. Surely he is sinful, very foolish.


She just hammered her own Imam.

The ignorance of this Ismaili truly amazes me.

Then she says this

" It was only after accepting this Trust that humankind deserved the prostration of the intimate angels (mala'ika yi muqarrabin), who are the noblest in creation....And when WE said to the angels, "BOW yourselves to ADAM, they bowed themselves except IBLIS.." (2:34)

Now she says 2:34, but 2:34 does not say the whole thing. She has combined he own junk with the quran and presented it as 2:34. 2:34 just says this - I am posting 2:33 and 2:35 as well to show how the Ismailis manipulate the quran.

002.033
He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
002.034
And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
002.035
We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."


It has already been shown that accepting the trust simply proved man was foolish and unjust and not deserving of prostration as the Ismaili claims. ISMAILISM EXPOSED.

[znanwalla]

You folks will never be able to scare us nor threaten us by mud slinging tactics.....we also will be free to do the same though it is on record you have miserably failed to answer most of our questions and what you now call gibberish, is in fact not gibberish at all......if you think you will show us the super imposed and doctored photos which some of you have posted and it will ruffle us then be my guest please....I am in fact waiting for you to post this fake clip here so that we can then have some fun ! tYou are cowards and everyone knows this by now....I have challenged you to have a face off with me but you are scared .....now do you really believe that you will be able to intimidate us with ficticious clips which you have created to malign and slander? just from the dressing itself, one can know the photo is doctored and once you post it here, it will be really interesting to see how things go ....so move forward !.....don't waste time !....and don't show us your ignorance by not being able to distinguish between a Prophet/Messenger/Imam.....go and play with your own veggies as your Mullahs have conveniently come to your aid by allowing you folks to have pleasure with veggies...so lets open up the topic and I will have some real fun now.....does the Quran distinguish in any way what the other side of the "coin" , at a given point in time ? and does your Quran say that for you the other side of the pair is to have mistresses and have sexual pleasure with young girls? or marry 6 or 9 year old girls? if so then do please let me know.....but I am happy that you now concede that the concept of pairs as relevant in certain context, is valid, as upto now you were unduly bickering and bitching like you are now trying to do....

but then you have not read further on.....it is specific to Adam and Eve....Adam too was an Imam but Allah forgave them both for their mistake - or have you not read the Quran.....so the ayat is referencing whom? again you have shown your ignorance !

zn

[znanwalla]

And all mankind originates from Adam....and so who is unjust and foolish? mankind !....but it yet does not alter the fact that it accepted the Trust and people like you have betrayed it by not returning this Amanat.....and so that makes you all unjust and utterly foolish !...zn

[anajmi]

znan,

I have clearly shown that it is not the quran that is fabricated, but Ismailism is what is fabricated. I promised you I will take you on a ride and I have.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

Nobody has ever said that the QURAN - the Book of Allah is fabricated ! Never have I or anyone else said this? sure you like to obfuscate and slither and twist because you have no real knowledge of the QURAN and most of your ahadith too are fabricated !

In the same way you do have just a "like thereof" of the Quran which your ancestors tried desperately to put together but ended up with serious flaws - there are variant texts circulating thus in the market and everyone knows this except you are in self-denial....

You argued about Sura Yaseen's translation when earlier on you had conceded that the translations were all variant but your arabic was perfect and when I asked clarifying questions, you could not answer them....

I showed you many other ayats from different suras in my earlier posts and the best you and MF could do is start threatening and acting bitchy - I am not someone who will back off or get scared and I am itching to have a showdown but for the dear Admin who has requested me to maintain restraint...

So don't make threats ! move on and let the shit hit the fan Pal !

You even do not know the historical background of Adam and foolishly blew the bugle pre maturely ! Even now you are doing the same though you have not been able to contest or dispute any of the ayats I have posted regarding Imamat and only yesterday MF was boasting like as if he had discovered suddenly where his ......were hanging ! hahahahah !...

You are all ignorant about Islam and the Quran ! simply boasting and boasting all the time like imbeciles does not give one any knowledge.....either about Islam or the scriptures !

zn

[znanwalla]

Najma,

Let me share some of your fabricated ahadith.....but before I do let me ask one more time ! so you guys will go to hell if you touch the palm of a woman huh? so why does this hadith not say about you folks touching her anywhere else? and so which is better or worse? touching the palm? or touching her ...? lets hear your educated views....

If God said to Muhamad that when they give you their allegiance they give it but to Allah Himself and God's hand is upon their hands...." so how do you tie this up with your hadith? why would the Prophet have to worry about touching a woman, when he was empowered and permitted? and you also need to clearly explain why he married 14 wives when your Quran says only 4 are allowed?.

Okay now...tell us more about these ahadith of yours?

" You should never ask a woman her advice because her advice is wothless.Hide them so that they cannot see other men" ...."The entire woman is an evil and what is worse is that it is a necessary evil.." 9any thoughts on them?)

Have you read the above ahadith? I have many more ! like Umar says.."prevent the women from learning to write ! say No ! to their capricious ways !.." (is that why most of your women are illiterate and subjugated?)

You tell me ! what is the truth? is your own mother and sister also not a woman? from whose womb did you come from? of a woman? so you are born of a woman after all - right ? unless you guys came out from some place then I don't know.....so tie these "extra ordinary" ahadith for us please as like you your ahadith too are mind boggling and fake, if you will as they make no sense and have no grounding in the Quran either..or show me the corroborative evidence to support them....Thank you !

zn

[anajmi]

No boasting and boasting znan. Only exposing and exposing the lie that is Ismailism. You have been shown to manipulate and manipulate the quran to suit your own and your Imam's agenda. Not once but many times. What a roller coaster ride I took you in. You are still spinning and spinning. Now you want to divert the topic to women abuse. No you can't. What does the quran say about your Imam who has accepted the trust? It says that he is foolish and unjust. HA!!

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

You have unfortunately NOt been able to expose anything najma save that you are all secrewed up from all sides and simply trying to digress to divert attention of the people from the truth as it exists !

I am sure you haven't even read Sura al Baqara....."And when your Lord said to the angels, I am placing a deputy on earth (God is suing the expression "deputy")....they said, will you put someone who will cause trouble there, shed blood? and whilst we sing your praise and glorify you?...what did God say to the angels?..." I know whay you do not know" !

And then what did the angels do?

They said...."Glory to you ! No Knowledge is OURS but that you have taught us, for you are most knowing and most wise.."

Iblis was rebellious and was banished !

I suugest that you read your Quran properly and then come to discuss.....

" Then Adam received instructions from HIS Lord and God relented (this was after the Obsessor had made them slip and fall) towards him for God is most Relenting and most Merciful...so now? is there any issue of Adam being unjust or foolish? None for Adam ! but for folks like you and MF..sure for Allah is abundantly clear !..." WE said let you descend from there but if GUIDANCE does indeed come to you from ME then whoever follows my GUIDANCE will have nothing to fear and will not sorrow..."
(did I not say to you that you all are now under chastisement as Muhamad is no longer with you? I did !)...and God says.." and for those who ungratefully reoudiate OUR Signs and accuse THEM of falsity, they are the company of FIRE; they are the ones who will stay in it.."

And then God says..." And do not onscure truth with falsehood or knowingly conceal the truth.." (now you guys are experts on obfuscation - right?)

" Do you command people to be Just when you forget yourselves...?" ( Itold you that you need to have ADL as a Pillar of faith - you did not believe me - now see what Allah is saying?...

zn

[znanwalla]

So then were all the Prophets and Messengers who came after Adam and including your own ancestors also 'foolish and unjust"? Yes or No ?

I have just shown you what Sura al Baqara says....you are again boasting like an imbecile even without reading what God is saying? so read first and then rave and rant like a Wahaabi minnion !...zn

[znanwalla]

Najma,

So you now do concede that you all do abuse women as you are not denying the ahadith quoted !..right?

Let me show you a bit more then..."better to be splashed by a PIG than for him to brush against the elbow of a woman not permitted to him.."

"better to bury an iron needle in the head of one of you than to touch a woman nor permitted to him.."

So how come you keep mistresses? are they permitted to you?

What about visiting brothels in Iraq and Syria where our own sisters have unfortunately ended due to the wars and which many of you do visit because you are "good" muslims ? so by definition are they not your sisters in faith? and so why do you go and visit them when they are like your sisters and mothers ? are they permitted? and so does then mean that you also do not respect your own ahadith however fabricated they may be?...right? or am I being unfair?...why have your Mullahs then come to your aid to make all this decadence easy for you ?.....what could be the reason?....do please enlighten us...zn

[anajmi]

znan,

Did you quote half the ayah to prove your point or not? Couldn't you post the full ayah? What does the full ayah say? If that particular ayah refers to your Imam, then your Imam is foolish and unjust. That ayah does not refer to the Prophet. I never said it did. You said it refers to your Imam, so your Imam is foolish and unjust. HA HA!!

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

I showed you an ayah that relates to Adam...as all originates from there including Imamat !

The word Imam is used seven times in singular and five times in plural form in the Koran. I don't think you even know this ? Yes! Sura Yasin is just one of such verse ! So if you can now kindly show me all these ayats as you know the Quran better than I do ...right?

Why don't you answer all our questions so we give you a check mate pal? why do you always go back to repeating the same accusations which obviously remain unsubstantiated? Is it because you have no answers and nothing meritorious to say?

Now go and listen to the arabic version of 15:79....it refers also to IMAMIM MOBEEN AND IMPLIES a path or a road - not the Book !

"(Remember) the day (hereafter) when We will summon every people with their Imam (leader-witness) then, whosoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their books and they shall not be dealt with (even) a shred unjustly" (17:71).....

Do you not see a clear distinction between IMAM and the BOOK and also don't you see that there is an indication that you will NOT be able to hold the Book also if there is NO Imam with you as Allah says openly HE will call only through your Imams and now you have NONE ! so will your Mullahs stand for you? they themselves will need an Imam also or Allah's message is clear what awaits anyone without the Imam? and the prophet has already said that those who die without knowing their Imam of the time and age will die the death of a pervert (ignorance).....

Now who refused to bow down before Adam, made from dust? Iblis ? and so who are the progeny of Iblis today? this should NOt be so difficult for you to know...right?

zn

[znanwalla]

After Adam , Abraham was also raised by Allah to "Imamship" of the entire mankind and Abraham asked ALLAH, for Imams from his progeny.

Thus anyone not tracing descendancy from Abraham, through Moses and Jesus and Muhamad, are not the Imams though they may call themselves as such.....Imamat is a divine insitution and the Imams from the progeny of the Prophet(s) are designated through NASS - not elected by the people - nor do they self-appoint themselves, if you will....so now if our Imam is unjust or whatever, then I asked you a clear question...what about Adam, Abraham and all their descendants? You replied No ! then you have answered yourself and in the same breath wish to contradict....you cannot have it both ways !

You have not been able to challenge these ayats also...

"And We made them Imams guiding people by Our command and We revealed to them the doing of good and keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve" (21:73). ....so what is Allah saying here? who is guiding the Imams and by whose Command?

"And We made Imams among them to guide by Our command when they were patient and they were certain of Our signs" (32:24).

Unfortunately for you the Quran and in particular Sura al Baqara is self-explanatory and supports the rightfulness of Muhamad (SAW) Rasul e Karim and his progeny !

So smart guy, tell me....Well, then are the Imams only from a descendancy of the Prophet of Islam OR are they also from the Prophet of the past including that of the Jews and Christians ? how do the ayats relating to Ale e Imran become fulfilled? and where? and by whom? and how?

Surely knowledgeable folks like you should have answers on your fingertips ...right? so do please enlighten us huh?

I believe Hazarat Issa was a Jew. I believe Prophet's 10th wife, Sofia was a Jewess. I believe the Prophet also had a Christian wife, Mary.....when people like you were taunting the Prophet's wives, the prophet said..."tell them I am related to both Moses and Jesus".....do you find this in your fabricated ahadith? let us know !

And please answer all our questions ...don't go round and round in your MF motor cycle ! hahahahha!

zn

[anajmi]

znan,

You most certainly know quran better than I do. Satan knows the quran better than all of us. Doesn't mean he is on the right path. Did you manipulate the ayah of the quran or not? Answer that question and see how I take you on a roller coaster ride.

[anajmi]

I also told you that I know my Imam and it is not Aga Khan.

[Muslim First]

don't go round and round in your MF motor cycle

Unbecoming of Gentle Woman.

Admin notce.

[znanwalla]

Frankly there is nothing for me to manipulate ! one only manipulates when he or she changes the words or does any 'substitution"....the expression "unjust or foolishness" is not so relevant to me as I know that Allah has given subsequent respite in the same Sura...also the nature of the "human constitution" represented by Adam, the first man, is distinguished by the integration of ALl existence which is represented by God teaching Adam all the names and qualities comprising the Universe and so it wasn't really necessary for me to quote the entire ayat in view of the context applicable and unlike you I do not like to distort or twist it to distort the context itself....and in reality it is the arrogance of Iblis and his ingratitude - an insolent angel - just the way you are insolent riding Mf scooters...who remained in self denial and disputed the "celestial design" and this then is the model of the human fall into error through conceit and hence such people have become the personification of the devil !

Allah says..."You will become abusive tyrants" - don't we see this all around us ? right ?

What you do not understand fully is that the revelation in the Quran differs from the jedeo-Christian tradition in its Image of Adam...so whilst earlier verses to show weaknesses of human nature and the need for atonement the Quranic revelation focuses on the ever-present reality of atonement, the power and the mercy of God, in restoring Adam to sanity and making him the very first Imam and leader !

Try and read "the flower ornament scripture" - you talk like someone on a corner saying all sorts of fine things while having no real inner virtue or capabilities for discourse and so such are those who actually do not practice the faith !

One of the most powerful images of Judgement day is that of being utterly alone in the presence of the Truth without any familiar supports of ordinary life or MF's motorcycle to give you and free rides !

Thank you !

zn

[znanwalla]

Mf,

There is really nothing so "unbecoming' in what I said.....if you don't understand figurative speech then please go back to school.....and if you have an Imam then congratulations and be happy ! looks like you are not ! or perhaps not as confident for if you were sure of your grounds and feel that what you have is indeed superior then why are you guys so concerned about others? baffles me ! makes no sense !

The Koran says: "None shall have the power of intercession, but such who has received permission (or promise) from (God), the Most Glorious" (19:87) ...so have your alims or mullahs received this power or permission? if so how and when? and if you can't show us then again you are hopelessly deluded and have fallen into misguidance !

Now "Glory be to the Lord, the Lord of Majesty...HE is ABOVE what THEY describe..." (37:180)...

isn't the above ayat clear that the supreme God is above what you guys describe HIM as?

Did I not say to you all that you are all in breach of Real Tawhid? I did ! You thus attribute many different "imperfections" to HIM - the Exalted !the Supreme God ! but HE stands alone ! HE is Unique ! This is your sheer ignorance about TAWHID !

zn