HAQIQAT AND TAWILL

[murtaza2152]

CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN BY GIVING EXAMPLE WHAT IS TAWILL AND HAQIQAT IN DOWOODI BOHRA???
PLZ GIVE EXAMPLE AS I KNOW DE MEANING OF WORD TAWILL AND HAQIQAT BUT WHATS DE CONTENT BAYAN IN IT???

[porus]

Regarding the Bohra perspective on tawil and haqeeqat, three views are represented on this forum:

anajmi: It is all bullshit.

Muslim First: It is the last refuge of the scoundrels.

porus: There is something in it and one should become acquainted with that.

I suggest you use Advanced search on this forum with words 'haqeeqat' and 'tawil'. You may also wish to use 'porus' in the author field.

[murtaza2152]

Regarding the Bohra perspective on tawil and haqeeqat, three views are represented on this forum:

anajmi: It is all bullshit.

Muslim First: It is the last refuge of the scoundrels.

porus: There is something in it and one should become acquainted with that.

I suggest you use Advanced search on this forum with words 'haqeeqat' and 'tawil'. You may also wish to use 'porus' in the author field.

I DONT NEED UR VIEWS
BCAUSE I BELIEVE HAQIQAT AN TAWEEL IS SOMETHIG CONCRETE
I REQUEST AALIMS ON DIS GROUP TO SPREAD LIGHT ON IT

[anajmi]

porus is being extremely disingenous. Please do not mislead people by making these kinds of posts.

anajmi: It is all bullshit.

These are porus' words and not anajmi's.

[Aarif]

I REQUEST AALIMS ON DIS GROUP TO SPREAD LIGHT ON IT

Porus is a highly knowledgeable participant on this forum. 1 Porus > 10 kothari aamils.

Read his posts and if you have some grey matter left in your head you will realize what I am trying to say.

[murtaza2152]

porus is being extremely disingenous. Please do not mislead people by making these kinds of posts.

anajmi: It is all bullshit.

These are porus' words and not anajmi's.

why u people r quoting out of context if u know den answer if not den keep silent
any one interested to explain my subject

[Humsafar]

Murtaza, welcome to the forum. The questions you ask have been discussed here many times. Do the " Advanced Search" (top right corner of this page) as porus has suggested, it will surely bring up the info you are looking for. It will require a lot of searching and reading so be patient. Also read the articles here: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/reform_issues/articles/ - some of them relate to your questions.

[murtaza2152]

Murtaza, welcome to the forum. The questions you ask have been discussed here many times. Do the " Advanced Search" (top right corner of this page) as porus has suggested, it will surely bring up the info you are looking for. It will require a lot of searching and reading so be patient. Also read the articles here: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/reform_issues/articles/ - some of them relate to your questions.

i have read all the rticle,
so thanks
if u have info abt my sub den gve link about it,

[Humsafar]

Good, now try the search. And please can you try to be a little polite.

[murtaza2152]

Good, now try the search. And please can you try to be a little polite.

i m polite but i want straight answers dat u people r not giving,,

[Al Zulfiqar]

Good, now try the search. And please can you try to be a little polite.

i m polite but i want straight answers dat u people r not giving,,

among bohras one person and only one person has all the answers, and that too, straight ones. he shoots them out straight from the hip like a sharp shooting gunslinger. in fact that person is not an ordinary person, but a natiqe quran, our haqiqi kaaba and our ilah ul ardh. none other than our syedna wa maulana abul qayed johar, wajihun neel, mansoorul yemen, dai al mutlaq, shams-ud-duat-ul mutleqeen, mohammed burhanuddin.

u shud be seeking his audience, sitting at his feet, lapping up his noor, and u will be bathed and rewarded with ceaselessly flowing fountains of wisdom. all u need is to carry a fat money-filled envelope. why are u wasting yr time here, unless u are looking for freebies..?

[murtaza2152]

i m polite but i want straight answers dat u people r not giving,,

among bohras one person and only one person has all the answers, and that too, straight ones. he shoots them out straight from the hip like a sharp shooting gunslinger. in fact that person is not an ordinary person, but a natiqe quran, our haqiqi kaaba and our ilah ul ardh. none other than our syedna wa maulana abul qayed johar, wajihun neel, mansoorul yemen, dai al mutlaq, shams-ud-duat-ul mutleqeen, mohammed burhanuddin.

u shud be seeking his audience, sitting at his feet, lapping up his noor, and u will be bathed and rewarded with ceaselessly flowing fountains of wisdom. all u need is to carry a fat money-filled envelope. why are u wasting yr time here, unless u are looking for freebies..?

in fact that person is not an ordinary person, but a natiqe quran, our haqiqi kaaba and our ilah ul ardh. none other than our syedna wa maulana abul qayed johar, wajihun neel, mansoorul yemen, dai al mutlaq, shams-ud-duat-ul mutleqeen, mohammed burhanuddin.
THESE PIOUS WORDS DOESNT SUITS UR TOUNGUE
AND WE R BATHED WITH RAHMAT SHAFAQAT HIKMAT HANIN OF OUR MOULA (AS) TUS
SO DONT GUIDE MEE

[Al Zulfiqar]

AND WE R BATHED WITH RAHMAT SHAFAQAT HIKMAT HANIN OF OUR MOULA (AS) TUS SO DONT GUIDE MEE

murtuza,

if u are already bathed to the point of drowning, with the hikmat (knowledge) from our bawa shafiq, then why are u on this site seeking knowledge??

u came here looking for answers to questions, answers which obviously u are not getting from either the syedna or his zaadas or 'noble amils', then u say "DONT GUIDE MEE"... ???

only a man desperate for knowledge would be spending his valuable time on an eid day begging for ilm from those on whom the syedna has declared baraat and utters laanats. i say murtuza, go and do not deprive yr family of yr presence. while they eat sukko gosh and malido, u are frantically burning the keyboard? if u are in mumbai, go over to saifee mahal, do a big salam and join sabaks. in a year's time u will be a "certified' aalim and sheikh with mkd and 3 valves attached. all the best!

[murtaza2152]

AND WE R BATHED WITH RAHMAT SHAFAQAT HIKMAT HANIN OF OUR MOULA (AS) TUS SO DONT GUIDE MEE

murtuza,

if u are already bathed to the point of drowning, with the hikmat (knowledge) from our bawa shafiq, then why are u on this site seeking knowledge??

u came here looking for answers to questions, answers which obviously u are not getting from either the syedna or his zaadas or 'noble amils', then u say "DONT GUIDE MEE"... ???

only a man desperate for knowledge would be spending his valuable time on an eid day begging for ilm from those on whom the syedna has declared baraat and utters laanats. i say murtuza, go and do not deprive yr family of yr presence. while they eat sukko gosh and malido, u are frantically burning the keyboard? if u are in mumbai, go over to saifee mahal, do a big salam and join sabaks. in a year's time u will be a "certified' aalim and sheikh with mkd and 3 valves attached. all the best!

thankyou for opinian and also for reminding that u r lanatis

hot hot blows of zulfi like a MUjahid runnin in empty astray desert

[Al Zulfiqar]

hot hot blows of zulfi....

murtu, kyon, mirchi barabar lagi na..??

[S. Insaf]

Brother murtaza has asked about Haqiqat and Tawil:-

‘ilm at-ta’wil wa al-haqiqa of Ismaili faith was developed by great Ismaili Dai Yaqub al-Sijistani, Jafar bin Mansur al-Yaman, Qazi al-Nauman, Hamid al-Din Kirmani and Muayyed Shirazi some where in 200 Hijri, who are considered the main architects of interpretations of Qur’anic verses and Islamic teachings. They were influenced by neo-Platonic philosophy which encouraged free inquiry. The Ismaili teachings are undoubtedly is the result of creative synthesis of Islam and Greek philosophy where Islam remains the main base of the doctrines.
These doctrines on one hand were spiritual in genesis and on the other hand they had a hidden agenda for capturing political power projecting the Imam as a religio-political figure; unqualified obedience to Imam was made a fundamental tenet of the faith. The followers of Shia faith call themselves as ‘Mumineen’ which means faithful of Imam and Imamat. The Faith in Imamat distinguishes a Mumin from Muslim.
To understand the aspects of the Ismaili doctrines an exhaustive treatise is required – knowledge of Qur’an and Greek philosophy is also must, therefore they can be understood only by those who have reached higher grades of learning, otherwise it is likely to mislead an orthodox mind about God, prophets and Shari’ah.

In short ilm al-haqiqa is regarding the creation of universe (ibda’a) and its functioning. The Fatemids agree with the Greek philosophers that the first thing that came in existence was ‘aql’ (Intelligence). Hamid al-Din Ahmed al-Kirmani is credited for introducing the doctrine of ‘Ashir-e-mudabbir [ten ‘aql’ (intelligence) managing and running the affairs of this universe].

In sort Tawil is regarding understanding the esoteric meaning of Qur’an and its interpretations.

[aqs]

@Insaaf saheb,

source of this info please as you have not given any credit to Syedna Ali bin Husain who has written the earlier books of Haqiqat.

[abd]

Brother murtaza has asked about Haqiqat and Tawil:-

To understand the aspects of the Ismaili doctrines an exhaustive treatise is required – knowledge of Qur’an and Greek philosophy is also must

Beware of the sugar coated poisonous tablets of Mr. Insaf. He makes it appear as if entire Ismaili Tawil and Haqaiq is based on Greek Philosophy.

[S. Insaf]

Beware of the sugar coated poisonous tablets of Mr. Insaf. He makes it appear as if entire Ismaili Tawil and Haqaiq is based on Greek Philosophy.

I request you brother to read again “Ismaili teachings are undoubtedly is the result of creative synthesis of Islam and Greek philosophy where Islam remains the main base of the doctrines” written in bold letters.

[abd]

I request you brother to read again “Ismaili teachings are undoubtedly is the result of creative synthesis of Islam and Greek philosophy where Islam remains the main base of the doctrines” written in bold letters.

Mr. Insaf, please reread the old literature and books in your collection. It was infact the Abbasi Khalifa Mamun Rashid who patronized the Greek Philosophy. When the educated elite of the time were drifted towards the Greek Philosophy, the Ismaili Mastureen Imams (Imam Ahmed Al Mastur AS) saw this as a threat to the Islamic Shariah and produced an encyclopaedic corpus of fifty-two epistles (Rasa’il Ikhwanus Safa).

Ismaili teachings are not creative synthesis of Islam and Greek philosophy as you claim.

[porus]

‘ilm at-ta’wil wa al-haqiqa of Ismaili faith was developed by great Ismaili Dai Yaqub al-Sijistani, Jafar bin Mansur al-Yaman, Qazi al-Nauman, Hamid al-Din Kirmani and Muayyed Shirazi some where in 200 Hijri, who are considered the main architects of interpretations of Qur’anic verses and Islamic teachings. They were influenced by neo-Platonic philosophy which encouraged free inquiry. The Ismaili teachings are undoubtedly is the result of creative synthesis of Islam and Greek philosophy where Islam remains the main base of the doctrines.

Another name that should be included amongst those illustrious persons is that of al-Farabi.

Ismaili metaphysics is indeed a derivative philosophy based on Greek philosophy of Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus and Pythagoras. It is syncretistic and eclectic philosophy which interprets Quran in the light of that philosophy.

However, the antecedents of this particular Greek philosophy can be traced back to the teachings of Hermes Trismegistus, the Egyptian metaphysicist who was deified by Egyptians as God Thoth and later by Greeks as their God Hermes.

Influence of Hermes can be found not only Ismaili metaphysics but also in Christian Gnosticism, Jewish Qabbala, Zoroastrianism and even in the Indian philosophy of the Vedas. It is clear that all these world views fed upon one another and their students wrapped up teachings of Hermes in their local cultural flavors.

Hence, there is a lot of truth in Shakespeare's dictum that 'there is nothing new under the sun' as fundamental teachings of all religions share a common source. If you undress all religions of their cultural baggage and go to the essence they will all be found to be sourced from the teachings of Hermes Trismegistus.

And where did Hermes get his knowledge? That, as they say, is the eternal mystery. Maybe, he was Adam, or teacher of Ibrahim, or the mysterious teacher of Musa in Surat al-Kahf. But then, Allahu Aalam.

[Mubarak]

Ismaili metaphysics is indeed a derivative philosophy based on Greek philosophy of Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus and Pythagoras. It is syncretistic and eclectic philosophy which interprets Quran in the light of that philosophy.

Dear Porus bhai,

Is there possibility that your above personal opinion can be incorrect?

Thanks and regards,

Mubarak

[porus]

Dear Porus bhai,

Is there possibility that your above personal opinion can be incorrect?

Thanks and regards,

Mubarak

Yes, of course. I could be incorrect in my opinion. I use the term 'Ismaili Metaphysics' to include Haqiqat and Tawil.

Perhaps, you would be kind enough to identify one or several key ideas in Ismaili Metaphysics which, in their essence, could not be traced back to earlier writings of Greek or Egyptian philosophers. What is genuinely original in Ismaili Metaphysics which other philosophies have taken up or rejected?

[Mubarak]

‘ilm at-ta’wil wa al-haqiqa of Ismaili faith was developed by great Ismaili Dai Yaqub al-Sijistani, Jafar bin Mansur al-Yaman, Qazi al-Nauman, Hamid al-Din Kirmani and Muayyed Shirazi some where in 200 Hijri, who are considered the main architects of interpretations of Qur’anic verses and Islamic teachings. They were influenced by neo-Platonic philosophy which encouraged free inquiry. The Ismaili teachings are undoubtedly is the result of creative synthesis of Islam and Greek philosophy where Islam remains the main base of the doctrines.

Bhai Insaf Sahib,

All above names are only slaves of Mustakar Imams. They act per order and approval by their respective Mustakar Imams.

Refer Quran 29:15-18, "(Mohammed) announce in public that WE *1 are from your God."

Note word "WE", all Mustakar Imams i.e. progeny of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) including himslef = "WE" are coming from Allah. So when Mustakar Imam say/do it will be by default in line with Allah's command and will. Insaf sahib the Dai's name u mentioned are just preachers, they act per Mustakar Imam orders. Hence, the knowledge of 'Haqiqa' is not from Dai's but from Imam and in turn from Allah.

*1: Allah uses 'we' and not 'u' i.e. Allah uses plural and not singular for Prophet Mohammed = there must be more persons along with Mohammed s.a., for Mohammed s.a. being pious his original from where he is born should also be pious and from Mohammed who will be born that too shall be pious like Mohammed s.a. himself = Molatina Fatima and progeny

[S. Insaf]

Dear brother abd,

Mr. Insaf, please reread the old literature and books in your collection. It was in fact the Abbasi Khalifa Mamun Rashid who patronized the Greek Philosophy. When the educated elite of the time were drifted towards the Greek Philosophy, the Ismaili Mastureen Imams (Imam Ahmed Al Mastur AS) saw this as a threat to the Islamic Shariah and produced an encyclopaedic corpus of fifty-two epistles (Rasa’il Ikhwanus Safa).

Ismaili teachings are not creative synthesis of Islam and Greek philosophy as you claim.

First let me congratulate you on being well-read. I have no hesitation in accepting that I am not a scholar of Islamic history and/or literature. And therefore I never wanted to indulge in this discussion because if not elaborated and fully explained the Ismaili dawa can create misunderstanding. This is reason why dawa is so secretive and can be understood by those who confirmed (rasikhun fil ilm) in knowledge. Tawil and Haqiqa can not be discussed and explained on this board. Since no one was answering question placed on this board I unintentionally attempted to briefly answer.
Coming back to your question:-
The children of Abbas, the uncle of holy Prophet, captured power by overthrowing the Umayyads taking advantage of great deal of unrest among the oppressed masses. They came to be known as Abbasid dynasty. After the Abbasids came into power, the Persians who excelled the Arabs in learning and scholarship became associated with their empire. They were the intellectual cream of the society. They were greatly inclined towards philosophy and theology for which Arabs had no taste. You are right it was during Abbasids rule that Greek philosophy developed great interest among the elites of the society. Some Abbasid rulers spent huge social surplus on translating the Greek, Persian and Indian books on philosophy, mathematics etc into Arabic. Plato, Aristotle and other Greek philosophers became an intellectual craze. Enough social-surplus was available to sustain a class of theologians, jurists, philosophers, astrologers and mathematicians and Abbasid capital Baghdad had become an important intellectual centre of the world.
When Ismaili movement was striking its root in parts of Iraq and Persia, there was a great intellectual urge for assimilating the Greek philosophy. The Ismaili Imams were aware of the intellectual trend of their time. They sincerely worked to creatively apply Greek philosophical concepts to the teachings of Islam. This assimilation of Islam and Greek philosophy attracted a number of eminent persons towards the Ismaili movement. Tawil and haqiqa are nothing but the esoteric explanation of the teaching and practices of Islam, influenced by Greek phylosophy.
Earlier the 9th Imam Ahmed al Mastur is said to have produced an encyclopaedic work divided into 52 Risalas on Greek philosophy and sciences known as Ikhwan as-Safa. These Risalas are important among the books on Ismaili dawa.
When trend among the educated elite increased and they started drifting towards Greek philosophy disregarding Islamic teachings the Ismaili Imam felt a need to reconcile philosophy with religion giving Islam a new dimension. The orthodox ulema of that time vehemently opposed Ismaili dawa out of ignorance. As you have done in my case. Due to this ignorance few of our Dais were beheaded though the Ismailis have always believed in, and scrupulously observed all Shari’ah practices. The only ‘sin’? they committed was to see Islamic teachings in the light of Greek philosophical concepts.
Lets close this topic here and now.

[Mubarak]

Brother murtaza has asked about Haqiqat and Tawil:-

In short ilm al-haqiqa is regarding the creation of universe (ibda’a) and its functioning. The Fatemids agree with the Greek philosophers that the first thing that came in existence was ‘aql’ (Intelligence). Hamid al-Din Ahmed al-Kirmani is credited for introducing the doctrine of ‘Ashir-e-mudabbir [ten ‘aql’ (intelligence) managing and running the affairs of this universe].

Bhai Insaf sahib,

Quran: 17-18/23-39: fa bash'shir ibadil lazeen: ystameoonal kol: fyt'tbioon: ahasnahu ulaaekal lazeen: hada'hu'mullaho va ulaeka hum ullul albab
Meaning: ....these are the people to whom Allah has blessed with wisdom and they are only the progeny of AQL.

Names you mentioned are only amplifiers and not original introducers of doctrine, It is Almighty Allah, refer to "progeny of AQL" in above verse of Quran.

This indication should be good enough to counter your anti-Dawoodi Bohra faith post, to ellaborate further the above writing is beyond the limit of this post.

[Muslim First]

*1: Allah uses 'we' and not 'u' i.e. Allah uses plural and not singular for Prophet Mohammed = there must be more persons along with Mohammed s.a., for Mohammed s.a. being pious his original from where he is born should also be pious and from Mohammed who will be born that too shall be pious like Mohammed s.a. himself = Molatina Fatima and progeny

And why not his other 3 daughters?

[Mubarak]

*1: Allah uses 'we' and not 'u' i.e. Allah uses plural and not singular for Prophet Mohammed = there must be more persons along with Mohammed s.a., for Mohammed s.a. being pious his original from where he is born should also be pious and from Mohammed who will be born that too shall be pious like Mohammed s.a. himself = Molatina Fatima and progeny

And why not his other 3 daughters?

All daughters of Prophet Mohammed s.a. are 'nek'. Muslim First, I cannot mention all names in my post however, Molatina Fatima is made/born from/to her father Prophet Mohammed s.a. so, your Aaisha is no match to Molatina Fatima i.e. Molatina Fatima is superior to your Aaisha. Further per Quran stanzas on Mubahila against Christians, Molatina Fatima went with Prophet your Aaisha dared not hence by this token along with Molatina Fatima being blood and meat of Prophet Mohammed is superior to your Aaisha.

[anajmi]

When Mubarak, disrespectfully, says "your Aisha", he forgets that Hazrat Aisha was married to prophet Muhammad (saw). So she was Prophet Muhammad's Aisha. So he is correct when he says your Aisha as we are one with the prophet. Prophet's Aisha becomes our Aisha and Mubarak is left with a hidden Imam and a corrupt Dai!!

[porus]

Quran: 17-18/23-39: fa bash'shir ibadil lazeen: ystameoonal kol: fyt'tbioon: ahasnahu ulaaekal lazeen: hada'hu'mullaho va ulaeka hum ullul albab

Please quote Quran references in form XX:YY, where XX is Sura and YY is ayat. Thank you.