What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing

[progticide]

The three accomplishments of progressives in their history are listed below:

1. Condemnation: Not only from mainstream Dawoodi Bohras who never appreciated or found any common cause with the progressive movement, but also from those who spearheaded the movement in the initial days and were soon disenchanted with its ideology and objectives. The proof of this is the fact that only a weak and fragile skeleton remains of the initial progressive population with the bulk having returned to the mainstream fold.

2. Stupor : The actions and activities of progressives have only brought shame, identity-loss, cultural-loss & stagnation for themselves. This is clearly visible in the larger secular societal acceptance received by the mainstream Dawoodi Bohras and the oblivion into which the progressives have pushed themselves and their future generations.

3. Defeat: Four Decades of false hope, fruitless efforts, unrestrained enmity and profound disrespect for Head of the community and the religious establishment; the progressives have only one thing to cheer about and that is their shameful defeat in way of an unworthy cause and unnecessary rebellion. Net Result is the progressives are still standing where they started their journey from, albeit with far fewer supporters , no leader, self-proclaimed preachers, fragmented values and belief system, zero community ethos and a rapidly diminishing religious and cultural identity.

What you progs have accomplished afterall is.....Nothing.

[SBM]

and What Abdes have accomplished
Slavery, loss of thought, loss of self respect and list goes on.........

[seeker110]

While abde's were learning Ghanu jivo,Ya syed-us Shodahie and sajda Wajib.
Progressives were learning Allama Iqbal,Ghalib, Mir and Faiz.

[Biradar]

It is pointless arguing with Mr. progticide: nothing will convince one who has already made up his mind. However, just for the sake of argument, let me present a major intellectual contribution made by progressives. This is in the field of Ismaili studies. Not that there are no other contributions, there are many, however, lets just talk about one thing at a time.

Among well-known scholars of Ismaili studies are Dr. Ismail Poonawala and Dr. Abbas Hamdani and Zahid Ali. All are progressives. All have made major contributions to making the literature of the Ismailis available to wider community of scholars. Poonawala, for example, has written a major bibliography of Ismaili literature, translated both volumes of Dai'm al-Islam and many other works. Hamdani has donated his family collection of manuscripts for scholars to study and, along with his father, made significant contribution to the study of the Ikhwan as-Safa, the life of Sayedna al-Khattab (the mazoon of Sayedna Zoeb), S. Moayyad Shiraji, etc. These scholars and many other progressive scholars have, in fact, opened up the study of Ismaili literature so much that many family members of the da'i are now pursuing these activities in Western universities, influenced by these pioneers. For example, Mazoon saheb's daughters are actively involved in research and are publishing books and papers. Before the progressive scholars made this literature available for study there was much secrecy and mis-information about our history and philosophy.

One must admit that the progressives have not "achieved" the dubious distinction of having photo-ops with rich and famous, the tyrants and the thugs of this world. They have also failed to "achieve" a lot of wealth by what amounts to as stealing from the community. They have also failed to "achieve" imposing their will on all the community members, and failed from robbing them of their rich identities and failed to convert them to bland uniform-wearing chest-thumping slaves.

[stranger]

and What Abdes have accomplished
Slavery, loss of thought, loss of self respect and list goes on.........

Omabharti,
Are you from mainstream DB ?
I asked you the same in other thread as well but you skipped the question.
Dont run, reply to it.

[Kaka Akela]

by stranger on Wed May 04, 2011 4:05 pm

omabharti wrote:
and What Abdes have accomplished
Slavery, loss of thought, loss of self respect and list goes on.........

Omabharti,
Are you from mainstream DB ?
I asked you the same in other thread as well but you skipped the question.
Dont run, reply to it
---------------------------------------------------

I would like to know what business is it of yours to know if Omabharti is from mainstream DB? How is his reply going to contribute to any discussion here? Why do you keep insisting in this or other threads to know that? is this a tactic to divert the discussion to meaningless personal attacks? Please grow up and don't waste every one's time with your childish and immature behavior.

[Al Zulfiqar]

let us analyse pesticide's post.

first of all, let us start with the id name he has selected. it is highly prejudicial, abusive and derogatory. such a biased and vitriolic person cannot by any stretch of imagination lay claim to engaging in intelligent or thought provoking debate. he destroys his own credibility by transparently betraying his bigotry.

secondly, he starts by assuming a false premise, hoping he has somehow established a fait accompli; a typical ploy of the dishonest and cunning. pesticide forgets that his disingenous tactics are well established from history and literature. for someone well read, these underhanded strategies ring hollow, they are nothing but mere rhetoric.

for all his dismissive attitude, he knows well that the very fact that he has to come here and defend the criminals whom he calls his masters is proof enough that the progressives are making a dent in the daily lives of the abdes - fools and knaves like him who profess world domination under the leadership of syedna MB. again, he forgets that if it were not for this free and fearless progressive site, he would not have an avenue to vent his spleen and pour out the hatred in his diseased heart. if progressives and their views and their accomplishments do not matter, why is he dignifying them by visiting this site and granting it the azeemushaan sharaf of his pseudo so-called high brow crap? instead of decrying the achievements of the progressives why doesnt he enumerate the great accomplishments of the syedna led abdes?

the enforcement of dress codes, the ten fold increase in sham religious taxes, the hundred fold increase in tyranny and intimidation, the elaborate creation of a draconian system to regulate every aspect of an abde's life, incl. how they are going to defecate in which type of toilet, what sort of beards they should keep, how their travels and visits are to be monitored with cunning methods of color-graded ejamaat cards, safai chitthis, illegal and unislamic practices of enforced taking of raza for every trivial bit of b.s., reducing a proud, independent, intelligent and generally self-reliant community into meek, fearful and subservient slaves and gullible fools, turning them into mushriqs and leading them towards kufr under the convenient garb of islam, exploiting the sheep and subjugating them and perverting the community into a cult, amassing untold riches and using this ill-gotten wealth to buy influence, corrupting the morals of petty politicians and govt officials, bribing, threatening and blackmailing morally decrepit individuals, manipulating easily bought media and seeking photo-ops with greedy and low-life celebrities, opportunistic politicians and others, isolating the community with cleverly designed stratagems of continous and meaningless religious rituals and changing their visible identities so that they become misfits in world society etc etc etc... this is abde progress????

if this is what defines progress and achievements in your lexicon, then we must also define what is moral degradation and corruption of one's soul.

let me remind you pesticide. just ONE morally righteous progressive constitutes a MAJORITY compared to a million mushriqs led by syedna MB and his corrupt establishment.

[progticide]

All the insults, name-calling and abuse posted by the progs above is a sufficient proof per se that my above observation is undeniably true, factual and precise.

The progs, indeed, have nothing to brag about as their accomplishments. You have sort to claim as your own those who were not the originators of your current movement but joined the same later at their own convenience since it offered them some sense of belonging after having being excommunicated from the mainstream Dawoodi Bohras decades before the current movement began. Thus, Ismail Poonawala (he is btw professor and not Dr.; you progs seem to have some obsession with the name doctor with every Tom, Dick & Harry presenting himself or others on this forum as Doctor), Husain Hamdani & family, zahid Ali had been removed from the Dawoodi Bohras much before this movement started. So the progs should exercise caution before listing the activities and misdemeanor of these persons as their own achievements. Its called Plagiarism.

Rather than debating about prog achievements, all the progs started their abuse and rhetoric against the mainstream Dawoodi Bohras; understandably so, since you progs have nothing to list as your achievements. Proof of your intellectual hollowness and cultural & religious illiteracy that has begun to take a toll on your belief system (evident from the openly renounced faith in the authority of all the Duat Mutlaqeen by laeen Porous and Zulfiscar, for more details read the thread "Porus v/s Mubarak...who do progs consider correct").

Perhaps it's time for the progs to recognise their folly and revert to the mainstream.

[Global]

I would like to take this oppurtunity to ask Pesticide, what ABDE DB has acheived during this last 40 yrs... Can you list down a few of them.

[profastian]

While abde's were learning Ghanu jivo,Ya syed-us Shodahie and sajda Wajib.
Progressives were learning Allama Iqbal,Ghalib, Mir and Faiz.

Ya syed-us Shodahie vs Iqbal, Ghalib and Faiz, no contest.

[aqs]

While abde's were learning Ghanu jivo,Ya syed-us Shodahie and sajda Wajib.
Progressives were learning Allama Iqbal,Ghalib, Mir and Faiz.

Ya syed-us Shodahie vs Iqbal, Ghalib and Faiz, no contest.

it again proves that Progs chose world and we chose akhirat.

[stranger]

---------------------------------------------------
I would like to know what business is it of yours to know if Omabharti is from mainstream DB? How is his reply going to contribute to any discussion here? Why do you keep insisting in this or other threads to know that? is this a tactic to divert the discussion to meaningless personal attacks? Please grow up and don't waste every one's time with your childish and immature behavior.

Listen Akela,
It do have meaning and reason because many people here, day and night beat drums of standing on own belief and Haq, accusing kothar and syedna for not practising the same.
As stated by Omabharti to me, in one of the threads ( On Modi ) :
''No matter what, we should stand on our belief and HAQ''
wow, so i would like to know were they really standing on progressive belief and Haq in both the forum and real life OR are they living with double face ?

[Al Zulfiqar]

Perhaps it's time for the progs to recognise their folly and revert to the mainstream.

why the sudden concern for the progressive minded? or is their criticism hurting you so badly that you now have to make frantic appeals to them to give up their quest and revert to becoming mushriqs?

keep dreaming mate....

[seeker110]

Our doctors are board certified,your sells Phook nu pani.

[Biradar]

Thus, Ismail Poonawala (he is btw professor and not Dr.; you progs seem to have some obsession with the name doctor with every Tom, Dick & Harry presenting himself or others on this forum as Doctor), Husain Hamdani & family, zahid Ali had been removed from the Dawoodi Bohras much before this movement started. So the progs should exercise caution before listing the activities and misdemeanor of these persons as their own achievements. Its called Plagiarism.

Mr. progticide: Perhaps you are ignorant, but it is a common practice to call someone who has a PhD as "Dr". It does not matter when someone was "removed" from the DBs. Anyway, what gives anyone the right to "remove" anyone? Is the religion someones private property? It is pointless arguing with you. Please do not waste our time. If you have something positive to contribute please do, otherwise do not expect replies from us.

[Humsafar]

What have the reformists achieved? This question gets asked often, and is answered variously with facts and proofs but none of it ever satisfies the questioner. This is because the the intention is not to learn or understand but simply to poke fun, to create paper tigers and then shoot them down, and ultimately to shift focus from the core reformist issues. The question "What the reformists have accomplished?" is completely irrelevant, for this is not a contest between reformists and abdes, this not a race for success or glory any such things. The reform movement is not about showing to the abdes "see how better off we are" (although we have much to boast about, pls read on). The reform movement is about issues of transparency, financial and religious corruption of the mafia clergy and about the autonomy of local jamats. The reform movement and reformists must be judged on the merit of these issues: that is, whether what they say makes sense or not, whether they have evidence (historical, doctrinal etc.) to support the charges they make. Needless to say, in 40 years of the current phase of the reform movement, reformists have marshalled mountains of evidence of every category to bury the mafia clergy and their defenders many times over. Against this mounting evidence the abdes have nothing to say, and this is the reason they do not want to talk about these issues.

That said, the real question that must be asked of reformists is this: are they true to the principles that they demand of the mafia clergy and the abdes? And the answer is a resounding yes. Transparency: All our dealings at all levels of our jamat and community, and especially in financial matters, are transparent. Autonomy: There's complete autonomy, freedom and democracy in the way our affairs are conducted. Jamat elections are held regularly and those in power are accountable to the people. And of course, there is no twisting and perversion of religion for the personal benefit of a few. Reformist remain true to the customs and traditions and doctrines of the dawoodi bohras faith. So in fact reformists are practicing what they are preaching. In itself this would be quite an achievement, but reformists have done more. Despite the constant drain on resources to fight legal battles with the mafia clergy, they have set up schools, clinics, welfare societies and a number of social programmes to help the poor and needy. And all this is being done in the spirit of serving the community, not to show off or to get their name in the media. Our efforts are low-key, genuine and meaningful: People's money going back to people, and not to Swiss bank accounts or to support the extravagant lifestyle of an illegitimate "royal family".

These are some tangible achievements. And there some intangible ones too. Biradar has pointed out the ones in the field of scholarship and learning. Here are some more. We've achieved the independence of the mind. Those who have lost the capacity to think will not understand this. We've achieved the freedom from fear of two-bit aamils, bhaisahebs and jamat flunkies. We've achieved the freedom form insult and humiliation. We've achieved the freedom to ask questions and demand answers. We've achieved to live in dignity and self-respect. We've achieved the freedom from being exploited in the name of religion. We've achieved the freedom from having to bow before a human. We've achieved the freedom to speak our mind. And our greatest achievement is to provide a platform to people like you (the abdes) to come to a reformist forum and ask us 'what have we achieved" - something which you cannot even think of doing in your markaz, in your majlis or on your websties - let alone letting us (reformists) do it.

[anajmi]

Very well said Humsafar.

[Zeal]

spot on humsafar!
Keep the good work going and insha-allah truth will prevail one day.

[porus]

Excellent post Humsafar,

A very well thought out and passionate response from someone at the rock face of reform movement.

Lots of allegories have been penned which appropriately describe the condition of vociferous abdes. One that comes readily to mind is that abdes are like those poor creatures chained in Plato's cave where their entire experience of life is the experience of shadows cast on a wall from a brilliant fire.

When one of these creatures breaks free and experiences freedom, he is unable to convince his fellow prisoners of an incredible life available to them away from their chains. They prefer to remain in chains.

[SBM]

stated by Omabharti to me, in one of the threads ( On Modi ) :
''No matter what, we should stand on our belief and HAQ''

Stranger
Can you show me the link where I said that. I do not recall such an statement anywhere in the exact words you quoted me. You need to provide the complete context instead of cherry picking the words

[SBM]

aqs on Thu May 05, 2011 7:52 am

profastian wrote:

seeker110 wrote:While abde's were learning Ghanu jivo,Ya syed-us Shodahie and sajda Wajib.
Progressives were learning Allama Iqbal,Ghalib, Mir and Faiz.


Ya syed-us Shodahie vs Iqbal, Ghalib and Faiz, no contest.

Aqs
it again proves that Progs chose world and we chose akhirat

.

Br. Aqs
With all due respect if that is the case then why ask for long life for Syedna ta Qayamat, why ask for World when one can have Akhirat?

[porus]

Ya syed-us Shodahie vs Iqbal, Ghalib and Faiz, no contest.

it again proves that Progs chose world and we chose akhirat.

No doubt Ya Sayyid as-Shuhada is a brilliant Arabic composition for a marsiya of Imam Husain's martyrdom. However, it is used primarily as a cadence support for breast beating and tear-shedding and it lacks philosophical insights of, say, Iqbal's Javed Nama or his Zarb-e-Kaleem.

I submit that one will learn a lot more about 'aakhirat' from Iqbal's masnavis than from many emotion-inducing marsiyas.

In any case, most Bohras will not appreciate the highly complex Arabic structure of Ya Sayyid as-Shuhada and would not be able to render any serious judgment on its literary merit.

[SBM]

Here is an article published in Pakistani Newspaper Dawn by Asghar ali Engineer, let us see if any of the Shazadas can show that kind of writing skills and get some thing published
http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/06/the-worl ... was-2.html

[Al Zulfiqar]

bhai oma,

aap kahan gadhon ke samne rasgulle phenk rahe ho?? uss se to accha hai ke bhains ke saamne been bajao bhaiyya...!!!

[Al Zulfiqar]

it again proves that Progs chose world and we chose akhirat.

wah bhai wah!! ulta chor kotwal ko daantey???

chose akhirat by doing sajdas to a mortal sinner, proclaiming it from the rooftops and declaring that sinner, who alongwith his family has amassed billions in properties, stocks, bonds and secret overseas accounts, as your allah on earth???

maybe you need to ask the syedna and his blood-sucking family how they plan to transfer this massive wealth to where they will be condemned in their hereafter, their akhirat???

someone who chooses akhirat gives up material greed and ambition and lives a life of simplicity, humility and austerity, a prime example of which was the great ali ibne abitalib.

by aqs' yardstick yazid and moawiyah chose akhirat whilst hussain chose this world, is it?

[progticide]

It is very difficult to know a group/community’s official stand on any matter (whether religious, social or political) if they do not have a single leader or authority because every member of that group/community proclaims himself/herself to be the leader and spokesperson on all issues relating to that group/community. This kind of behavior forms the basis for chaos and anarchy within that group/community thereby ultimately resulting in ambiguous doctrines and belief system and its eventual destruction.

The above scenario is evidently visible in the prog movement. And therefore, it is very difficult to ask for any official stand from the progs on any matter since there is no single authority who can provide a finite and firm opinion acceptable to every member of the movement and which can be taken as their official position on the subject.

But, nevertheless, let me try again asking the prog leadership (if there exist any) for their official position on the below:

1. Progs have renounced their faith in all the Duat Mutlaqeen thereby disassociating themselves from the spiritual and temporal leadership of the Dai, not only the present one but all previous ones as well. (This is not my opinion, but from what has been mentioned by progs themselves. For proof kindly bother to read the replies posted on the thread “Porus v/s Mubarak…who do progs consider correct”). So the question is: when the progs have disassociated themselves from the office of the Duat Mutlaqeen during period of occultation of the Imam, you are technically no longer Dawoodi Bohras? So what is the point in interfering in the matters of Dawoodi Bohra community?

2. Right to be part of the Dawoodi Bohra community is through profession of faith in the religious doctrine of the community and only after observing of oath of allegiance to the Imam uz zaman through his appointed Dai e Mutlaq of the time. If you have not taken the Oath of allegiance from the authority appointed by the current Dai e Mutlaq for whatever reason (including if you don’t accept the authority as rightful or any other reason) you are for all practical and legal purposes not part of the community. So why do you keep insisting on still calling yourselves Dawoodi Bohras when you yourselves have renounced your faith in the community?

3. The office of the Dai e Mutlaq was instituted through an official treatise of the Fatimi Dawat then headed by Imam Aamir (A.S) with clear instructions of propogation of the Fatimi Dawat headed by the office of Dai e Mutlaq until the reappearance of the Imam of the time. Every splinter group of the Shia Ismaili Mustaliya Tayyibi community has adhered to this doctrine with each of them having their office of a Dai e Mutlaq to head their community in the event of dispute of succession. But nevertheless, no group (Dawoodi, Sulaymani, Alavi) is led without the seat of the Dai e Mutlaq. (Jafari Bohras are no longer part of Shia Ismaili Mustaliya Tayyibi community since they follow the Sunni hanafi school). The progressives have been really innovative in this respect with no such office to head their community affairs; which means that progs have violated the instructions of Imam Aamir (A.S) thereby disassociating themselves from the Shia Ismaili Mustaliya Tayyibi community altogether: now I know, some of you guys will immediately start posting comments that you are still Dawoodi Bohras and have no problem with accepting the office of the current Dai e Mutlaq albeit with some reforms and freedom etc. etc.; but isn’t it you progs who are calling yourselves “Progressive/Reformist Dawoodi Bohra” with separate jamaat khanas and masjids and your own appointed imams for prayers. So you are for all practical and legal purposes a separate community without the office of Dai e Mutlaq, thereby invalidating any association with the Shia Ismaili Mustaliya Tayyibi community since the office of Dai e Mutlaq is the fundamental basis of the Fatimi Dawat in the Dawr e Satr. Doesn’t this mean that you progs are now no way following the Fatimi dawat itself by going against the instructions of the 20th Fatimi Imam?

4. Now since you progs have disassociated yourselves from the Aimmat Tahereen and Duat Mutlaqeen of the Fatimi dawat, would you throw some light on the school of thought that you are currently subscribing to. Is it Sunni, Shia Ithna Ashari, Ismaili Nizari, Zaidi, Khawarij (this group is extinct but may be you progs are trying to revive this Khawariji school)? Or is it free for all, pick one of your choice, to really exercise freedom that you so desire of?

[SBM]

It is very difficult to know a group/community’s official stand on any matter (whether religious, social or political) if they do not have a single leader or authority because every member of that group/community proclaims himself/herself to be the leader and spokesperson on all issues relating to that group/community. This kind of behavior forms the basis for chaos and anarchy within that group/community thereby ultimately resulting in ambiguous doctrines and belief system and its eventual destruction.

Prog
95% of Muslim community works with council known as SHURA and if power is transferred to one person than it becomes a dictatorial regime
The world rejoiced when Egypt and Tunisia took a step and removed a person(a single leader or authority) Look at Qaddafi and Syrian/Yamani or Bahrain as well as Saudi dictators, they are strong single leader or authority and with your theory, they should be praised, right even though they have no problem killings their own. Hitler was a single leader and authority too. They all formed anarchy and chaos and they all are destroyed eventually unlike democracies (albeit SHURA Council) still thriving
Great democracies like India and USA are working great and prospering where they have check and balance system between legislature and administrators.
Again since you call yourself Abdes, then you are correct you need a strong leader who can control your mind, freedom and your way of life.

[SBM]

progticide

“Porus v/s Mubarak…who do progs consider correct”

I suppose unlike Abdes, we do have choice to use our own brain and decide for ourselves who is correct and who is wrong,
Another analogy some of the people from the other side have said the following
They have reservation about felicitating Modi but they have no choice and accept whatever Kotharis decide. we have a choice if something is wrong, it is wrong and we do not have to accept but in your case I suppose you loose that right,

[progticide]

Another stupid attempt by a prog to digress from the subject. You guys really don't have any answers to the above questions since you dont have a leader or single authority.

Giving Sunni example of Shura only proves your inclination towards the Sunni school of thought. Indirectly and unknowingly you answered the last question.

Now, it's time for your so-called leaders to step in and counter the points I have raised above & Give a rational argument to the debated issue rather than talking crap.

Omabharti - abhi bachcha he tu, apne bado ko bolo ke jawab de.....you have proved yourself to be too naive.

Maybe you should ask your fathers like Insaf, Asghar engineer etc to counter these. we are not interested in your rubbish replies.

[SBM]

^
Typical, when can not debate become personal