Progs Plz Answer my Questions...

[anajmi]

porus,

Let us say we are in a mosque, you, myself this young man and a fourth person.

I believe in the quran, try to understand it, try to memorize it but cannot recite it in a beautiful voice. I pray five times a day, fast, believe in Allah and try my best to follow all His commandments.

This young man recites the quran in a beautiful melodious voice, has no idea what he is reading, except that it is the message of Allah, prays 5 times a day, fasts, believes in Allah and tries his best to follow all His commandments

The fourth person cannot recite, but can only read and that too not the arabic but a transliteration in gujarati, has no idea what he is reading, except that it is the message of Allah, prays 5 times a day, fasts, believes in Allah and tries his best to follow all His commandments. Most good muslims fall in this category.

Then we have you, who knows perfect Arabic, has perfectly understood the quran (not), does not pray, fast, believe in Allah or consider it necessary to follow his commandments.

Can you guess which ones are going to heaven and which ones to hell?

I consider those who believe in Allah and follow his commandments as the ones who have understood the message of the quran and the prophet. You might be an expert in Arabic but you are hell bound, which means, you didn't get the message, Arabic or not.

[anajmi]

Now if you were to actually READ the quran, does it mean that you believe in it? No. Does something prevent you from READING the quran even if you do not believe in it? No.

Now if you were to actually STUDY the quran, does it mean that you believe in it? No. Does something prevent you from STUDYING the quran even if you do not believe in it? No.

Now if you were to actually EXPLAIN the quran, does it mean that you believe in it? No. Does something prevent you from EXPLAINING the quran even if you do not believe in it? No.

Correct, hence you come in as the third part of the ayah

YUSUFALI: Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own.
PICKTHAL: Those unto whom We have given the Scripture, who read it with the right reading, those believe in it. And whoso disbelieveth in it, those are they who are the losers.
SHAKIR: Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it ought to be read. These believe in it; and whoever disbelieves in it, these it is that are the losers.

The bold text applies to you. It doesn't say that those who disbelieve can't read or study or recite. They very well can.

[porus]

anajmi,

I agree that in your universe, I am bound to go to hell. And you will go to heaven. (Although, I think I will let God of your universe determine that.)

While I am not a believer in the sense you use the word, I think I am person of good moral character (even from Islamic point of view). I am fair, look after my family, do not cheat or lie, do not gamble, do not drink alcohol, do not eat pork, and do not have 'illicit' sex.

My one weakness is that I spend too much time on this message board. I intend to see what I can do about it. I think your God will punish me more severly for wasting the valuable time he has given for being on this board than for not believing in him.

[anajmi]

porus,

I am unable to find the verse maybe you can help, but it is clearly stated in the quran that for a disbeliever, none of his good deeds will do him any good. I think these are it.

011.015
YUSUFALI: Those who desire the life of the present and its glitter,- to them we shall pay (the price of) their deeds therein,- without diminution.
PICKTHAL: Whoso desireth the life of the world and its pomp, We shall repay them their deeds herein, and therein they will not be wronged.
SHAKIR: Whoever desires this world's life and its finery, We will pay them in full their deeds therein, and they shall not be made to. suffer loss in respect of them.

011.016
YUSUFALI: They are those for whom there is nothing in the Hereafter but the Fire: vain are the designs they frame therein, and of no effect and the deeds that they do!
PICKTHAL: Those are they for whom is naught in the Hereafter save the Fire. (All) that they contrive here is vain and (all) that they are wont to do is fruitless.
SHAKIR: These are they for whom there is nothing but fire in the hereafter, and what they wrought in it shall go for nothing, and vain is what they do.

I have the same weakness that you have. I spend too much time on this board. From next week inshaallah when I will be back at work, it will reduce. But if my time over here does someone some good, my reward will be in heaven inshaallah.

[anajmi]

porus,

There is a tradition, I think about Imam Abu Hanifa (I am not sure), but when he was on his death bed, he kept repeating, "Not yet, Not yet". (Translation ofcourse). When he regained consciousness, his son asked him about what he had heard. The good Imam told him that the devil was close to him saying that he has lost the Imam. The Imam replied to him saying "Not yet". What that means is, there is always a chance that the devil will be able to get the better of us before we die. And I hope and pray to Allah that he protects me and my family from the devil.

[anajmi]

porus,

I am fair, look after my family, do not cheat or lie, do not gamble, do not drink alcohol, do not eat pork, and do not have 'illicit' sex.

Do you know that if there had been no religion some of these wouldn't have been defined as good moral character.

For eg, why don't you eat pork? Is it a crime?

Lying is not a crime, unless spoken to a federal officer. All lying is a crime only in religion.

Having illicit sex is also not a crime outside of religion. kalim and some others are for it.

Neither is gambling or drinking alcohol (without driving ofcourse).

Being fair and looking after your family is also not required by the law of the land.

So you may agree, that if we didn't have religion, the world would be worse than it is right now (solely because of those who use religion for their own evil gains).

[Average Bohra]

The acts that you and Porus are referring to have to do with a conscience, morality, upbringing and more or less universally accepted set of rights and wrongs. They have nothing to do with religion except for those who need religion to guide them through the very basics of human decency and morality. The latter group troubles me, much like someone who needs a manual to change a light bulb. The fact that religious books happen to preach the same ought to be incidental. Some of us don't need religion to dictate that, or a scare of heaven vs. hell, but do it of our own free will . I am not referring to eating pork or alcohol or pre-marital sex, those are cultural or social differences.

Originally posted by anajmi:
Lying is not a crime, unless spoken to a federal officer. All lying is a crime only in religion.

Incorrect; lying in a secular court of law, affidavits, or even financial statements is a crime, just to name a few.

[Humsafar]

Porus,
Sorry, you failed to catch me "before the weekend got underway".

To my eternal regret, Arabic is Greek to me, so I'll trust your translation /interpretation in the matter. There maybe a contradiction between 16:44 and 2:121 or there isn't. It doesn't really matter to someone who doesn't believe in divine origin of the Quran. But that was not the point of my post, I was more interested in the Quran's own claim of its inaccessibility as evident in 16:44. I was trying to question as to why would you accept this particular claim as true while rejecting other Quranic claims, for example, about jinns, angles etc.

But now when I think about it, I realise you've been talking from the point of view of the bileiver, i.e. if someone, let's say like anajmi, who takes the Quran to be the literal word of God then he can't ignore the meaning of 16:44. Then the Quran becomes inaccessible by virtue of his own beliefs. On the other hand, for a non-believer such as myself the Quran remains gloriously accessible. Such are delicious ironies of belief and non-belief.

Regarding spending time on this board, it is not such a bad thing. Without you guys and other regular contributors this would be dull place. If you feel you're spending far too much time here than you can afford give yourselves timeout on weekends. That's what I do and it gives me a much needed break. We all argue, fret and fume and lose our cool but it cannot be denied that we all share a special bond - as mysterios and virtual as they come. Thanks to glories of Internet gods.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

It becomes more and more apparent that disbelievers actually cannot understand the quran. Let me repeat, there is no contradiction in any ayah of the quran. It only appears that way to you. Remember, you do not know Arabic, so according to porus, you don't know what you are talking about. The doors of the truth are shut upon you.

People like anajmi who believe that the quran is the word of God, are special. They don't need to know Arabic to understand the quran. That is the beauty of faith.

[anajmi]

Here is the ayah you refer to once again.

016.044
YUSUFALI: (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
PICKTHAL: With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
SHAKIR: With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.

Not sure where you got the idea of the "inaccessibility" of the quran. Is it that even English has become difficult for you to understand? If quran were inaccessible based upon your definition, then every book written by every person other than you would be "inaccessible" to you, unless you had the person explain it to you...in person.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:

Remember, you do not know Arabic, so according to porus, you don't know what you are talking about. The doors of the truth are shut upon you.

People like anajmi who believe that the quran is the word of God, are special. They don't need to know Arabic to understand the quran. That is the beauty of faith.

I did not say that Quran is inaccessible because of a lack of knowledge in Arabic. It is inaccessible because we do not have Prophet anymore to explain the Quran to us.

As for your second paragraph, you sound so like a Kothari. You believe that Yusufali is Quran and kotharis believe that Sayedna is Quran. Both claim that Yusufali and Sayedna are both experts in Arabic, both are believers and can interpret er translate the Quran for them.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:

I agree it was a whole lot more difficult to understand the quran back then because of lot of things mentioned in the quran at that time appeared to be mutashabihaat to those people. As mankind progressed with the will of Allah, a lot of ayats that would've been considered mutashabihaat became clearer.

Interesting observation by a believer in the abilities of translators and explainers of the Quran. The latter obviously revised their knowledge. Could'nt Yusufali be in that category?

As for mutashaabihat, let me quote the Yusufali translation of ayat 3:7

"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding."

Here, Yusufali clearly translates that the meaning of mutashabihaat is known only to Allah. So either anajmi no longer believes in his Quran (Yusufali) or he now thinks that those that were mutashabihaat before are now muhakama.

What except Quran itself, and who except Prophet himself, can identify which ayats are mutashaabihat and whicha are muhakamaat?

[porus]

Humsafar,

I am interested in the logic of apologists for the Quran when confronted not so much by the contradictions but more by absurdities arising out of their literal interpretations. Absurdities are compounded by translations.

In connection with 16:44, the Shia, including Bohras, believe in the tradition of the “Thalaqayn”, which grants Prophet’s role of explainer to Imams and Dais.

I have several dictionaries of colloquial, standard and Quranic Arabic. When reading Quran, I need to consult them. I also read translations. If you have an intermediate understanding of Arabic, translations will jar in your ear. If you have a certain viewpoint about what the Quran is saying, Yusufali, Pickhtail and Shakir will leave you exasperated. I find the Arberry translation to my liking as it is quite faithful to the original Arabic.

It is nonsense to claim that only believers can understand Quran er translation. This is like saying that physicist cannot understand 'Copenhagen' interpretation of Quantum Theory if he finds 'Many Worlds' interpretation more convincing.

Incidentally, did you know that Islam has its own version of the ‘Da Vinci code’? A large number of manuscripts of the Quran dating to about 100 years after the death of the Prophet were found in “graves” in the ruin of old mosque in Yemen. Some 100,000 documents were apparently restored under a grant from the German government by two German scholars of Islam, non-believers, by the way. Yemeni government has suppressed publication of these manuscripts. It is being claimed that, if published, the Muslim world would completely change its view of the Quran. It is claimed that the Quran “evolved” to its final version through lots of editing.

[Humsafar]

Porus, thanks for your explanation. Yes, believers are their own worst enemies when they opt for a literalist interpretation. They can tie up themsleves in theological, not to say logical, knots endlessly.

No, I did not know about the "Yemeni manuscripts". But I remember reading that at the time Caliph Usman there were at least seven versions of the Quran floating around, and that once he gave stamp approval to one particular version the rest were either destoryed or suppressed.

Hope the Yemeni manuscripts come to light in our lifetime.

[porus]

anajmi claims that only believers can understand Quran. I would like to relate what historians say about the conversion of Umar, the second Khalifa, one of the people anajmi has very high regard for.

Umar had decided to kill the Prophet and was heading towards a house of one of his supporters, where he was meeting for prayers. On his way, he met a man who informed him that his (Umar's) own sister had become Muslim. He headed to his sister's house. He attacked her and caused her to bleed. He demanded to read the verses of the Quran that she had. She refused to give them to him unless he cleaned himself first.

Having some remorse for wounding his sister, he washed himself and read the the verses. On reading, and understanding, he converted to Islam.

This story is widely accepted by Sunnis. So even an unbeliever like Umar could understand Quran, by Sunni standards.

[porus]

http://www.swahilionline.com/features/a ... zrui28.htm

A response by Ali Mazrui to an article on the interpretation of the Yemeni manuscripts.

Gerd-R Puin is the German who was involved in restoring the manuscripts.

Ali Mazrui, I believe, a Palestinian Christian, highly sympathetic to Islam.

[anajmi]

porus,

Let me put it a different way, only people who are chosen by Allah to believe in him understand the quran and follow Allah and his prophet.

Even you "understand" the quran, but you aren't as lucky as Hazrat Umar was.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:

Let me put it a different way, only people who are chosen by Allah to believe in him understand the quran and follow Allah and his prophet.

What a relief! It is all Allah's doing. It is he who made me an unbeliever. If he throws me into fire, I will tell him to demonstrate his infinite justice and throw himself in the fire!!

[marabu]

for your information Prof Mazriu is Mombasanian .Just google his name or search wikepidea

[anajmi]

porus,

Yes, he did make you a disbeliever. You should try to understand the quran. It is quite clear in it. Let me quote just a couple of ayahs.

002.006
YUSUFALI: As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

002.007
YUSUFALI: Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Here, Yusufali clearly translates that the meaning of mutashabihaat is known only to Allah. So either anajmi no longer believes in his Quran (Yusufali) or he now thinks that those that were mutashabihaat before are now muhakama.

You are unable to understand my posts correctly, how can you be expected to understand the quran? This is my post

I agree it was a whole lot more difficult to understand the quran back then because of lot of things mentioned in the quran at that time appeared to be mutashabihaat to those people. As mankind progressed with the will of Allah, a lot of ayats that would've been considered mutashabihaat became clearer.

Understand? Or do you need more explanation? A translation in Arabic perhaps?

[anajmi]

Here's another example

039.023
YUSUFALI: Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide.

039.036
YUSUFALI: Is not Allah enough for his Servant? But they try to frighten thee with other (gods) besides Him! for such as Allah leaves to stray, there can be no guide.

039.037
YUSUFALI: And such as Allah doth guide there can be none to lead astray. Is not Allah Exalted in Power, (Able to enforce His Will), Lord of Retribution?

039.041
YUSUFALI: Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul: but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.

I must say, I do pity your soul.

[anajmi]

It is nonsense to claim that only believers can understand Quran er translation.

Well, if the non-believers had understood the quran, they would've been believers don't you think? Besides, if non-believers had understood the quran the quran would've been proven as a lie. Why? because Allah says in the quran that he has set a veil over their eyes and has sealed their hearts. So you see, according to the quran, a disbeliever cannot understand the quran, unless he opens his heart and starts believing. Besides, one doesn't need to "understand" the quran to believe in Allah. You seem to have understood it better than Yusuf Ali, Pickthal and Shakir but are still a disbeliever.

So the bottom line is that disbelievers do not and will not understand the quran.

[anajmi]

Now I am not saying that what happened with Hazrat Umar cannot happen with you. The veil over his eyes was removed and his heart opened up to the message of the quran. Maybe someday the seal over your heart will be removed too. But if it is not, man, are you in trouble!!

[anajmi]

I did not say that Quran is inaccessible because of a lack of knowledge in Arabic.

Now that is a 180 degree, or is it 540 degree? What do you think Humsafar?

[anajmi]

I have several dictionaries of colloquial, standard and Quranic Arabic. When reading Quran, I need to consult them. I also read translations. If you have an intermediate understanding of Arabic, translations will jar in your ear. If you have a certain viewpoint about what the Quran is saying, Yusufali, Pickhtail and Shakir will leave you exasperated. I find the Arberry translation to my liking as it is quite faithful to the original Arabic.

What a waste. Even after all this, you choose to behave like someone to whom the message would make absolutely no sense. It is so true when Allah says in the quran that only he, whom Allah wishes, will understand the message of the quran.

[anajmi]

Incidentally, did you know that Islam has its own version of the ‘Da Vinci code’? A large number of manuscripts of the Quran dating to about 100 years after the death of the Prophet were found in “graves” in the ruin of old mosque in Yemen. Some 100,000 documents were apparently restored under a grant from the German government by two German scholars of Islam, non-believers, by the way. Yemeni government has suppressed publication of these manuscripts. It is being claimed that, if published, the Muslim world would completely change its view of the Quran. It is claimed that the Quran “evolved” to its final version through lots of editing.

I am sure there were a lot of Salman Rushdies cropping up a few decades after the prophet's death. A few centuries from now, people like you will be talking about "The Satanic Verses" as an old English manuscript that would completely change the Muslim world's view of the quran.

[porus]

anajmi,

Light relief for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MC63yEy5YM

An exquisite rendition of an old Noor Jahan song by Humera Arshad. I hope you know Urdu. Enjoy.

Later translate it into English and see if you can incorporate all the nuances of the song in English.

I daresay you can express similar sentiments in English or any other language. But try to translate this particular song into English.

Here are the lyrics (I think I have got them right)

sadaa hun apne pyar ki
jahan se be-niyaz hun
kisi pe jo na khul sake
woh zindagi ka raaz hun

rachey hai mere zamzamey
hawaaon mein ghataaon mein
mere gale ka noor hai
ghula hua fazaaon mein
pahun to chaandni hun mein
chhiroo to ek saaz hun
kisi pe jo na khul sake
woh zindagi ka raaz hun

sune agar meri sada
to dil ke karavan rukay
bhula ke apni gardishon ko
saat asamaan rukey
mein husn ka gharoor hun
meuin dilbari ka naaz hun
kisi pe jo na khul sake
woh zindagi ka raaz hun

[porus]

Change 'to dil ke karavan rukay' to 'to chalte karavan rukay'

[Muslim First]

.
Ourus
is this ditty downloadable anywhere?
Wasalaam
.

[Humsafar]

I remember watching Ali Mazrui's excellent BBC series "The Africans: A Triple Heritage" some years back. If you get a chance you must watch it. I highly recommend it.