Dawoodi Bohra Forum

021.085
YUSUFALI: And (remember) Isma'il, Idris, and Zul-kifl, all (men) of constancy and patience;
PICKTHAL: And (mention) Ishmael, and Idris, and Dhu'l-Kifl. All were of the steadfast.
SHAKIR: And Ismail and Idris and Zulkifl; all were of the patient ones;

021.086
YUSUFALI: We admitted them to Our mercy: for they were of the righteous ones.
PICKTHAL: And We brought them in unto Our mercy. Lo! they are among the righteous.
SHAKIR: And We caused them to enter into Our mercy, surely they were of the good ones.

Do you know the name of the Surah 21? Can porus guess? - Al Anbiya

Damn! I knew it! Muayyad Shirazi, Abu Yaqub Sijistani, al Farabi and others should have waited for these gems before embarking on their ludicrous wild goose quest for unearthing what they mistakenly thought were the secrets of the Quran. Ignorant idiots!! Why the world calls them scholars, one will never understand!!

Actually, no one will ever be able to confirm if what these people discovered were secrets of the Quran. When you say "the world calls them scholars", you might want to rethink what you mean by "the world". I doubt there are a lot of people who have read or understood what these people are saying. For eg. how many bohras have actually understood or even read Ismaili Metaphysics? Or even read the zahiri interpretation of the Quran which is Daimul Islam? Even Humsafar, who is always thumping it, hasn't read it!!

aqs,

There is no point in asking questions to porus. He is similar to you who desists from answering. He is the same as any hidden-ilm-sabak-taawil abde. You will ask people to go to hidden sabaks and spend money on salaams and porus will ask people to go to Amazon and buy hundreds of books!!

aqs wrote:@Porus

can you please answer this one

How did Jews end up in Egypt during the reign of the Pharaoh Ramses? (HInt: Monotheism was adopted by Pharaoh Akhenaten, Who inspired Akhenaten? He was there befor Ramses)

I will answer this question on three different levels.

First level concerns the story of Exodus as it is related in the Bible and the Quran. This is the level of faith and, for me, it is a myth adopted by the scriptures to relate a perennial theme of Good versus Evil. From the point of view of Taawil, it retraces the story of Adam and Shaytan as the latter played out in aalam al-ibda. Briefly, Shaytan’s arrogance and jealousy is played out for the first time on earth by Shaytan convincing Qabil that he was more deserving to be the wasi of Adam and to whom the gift of Taawil should have been presented. Qabil’s guilt at slaying his brother and Allah’s mercy in forgiving Adam become prototypes of human behavior. Man sins and is redeemed.

Musa and the Pharaoh recreate the heavenly drama on earth, this time with Imamat triumphant. While Bible gives a lot of information about the Hebrews, Quran is silent on how they came to be in Egypt.

Second level is the story of legend. It starts with the legend of Hermes Trismegistus, who was a hanif, a monotheist and teacher of Akhenaten, who was actually the Pharaoh Amenhotep IV. The latter founded the sacred city of Aton. And the cult of monotheism was called the cult of Aton.

Now, here it gets interesting Hermes Trismegistus was none other than Prophet Idris. In fact, ancient Egyptians believed that the Pyramids at Giza were the tombs of Idris (Hermes Trismegistus) and Seth, the third son of Adam. Seth was adopted as an object of veneration by Egyptian Platonist Gnostics. The legend survived the arrival of Islam in Egypt and one, Muhammad Sa’im al-Dahr, an extremist, destroyed the nose of the Sphinx when he witnessed the locals offering sacrifices to it and the Pyramids.

The legend has it that Musa was actually a high priest of Aton and follower of Idris, like Akhenaten. When the latter died, Egyptians reverted to polytheism and started atrocities on the followers of the Aton cult. And Musa appears to have negotiated their exodus.

The third level is based on the discoveries of archeologists and anthropologists and gives a plausible answer to how the myth of Jews and their leader Musa was created. Akhenaten’s father the Pharaoh Amenhotep III had conquered and subdued the people of Canaan. Some of these Canaanites had come to Egypt seeking greener pastures but were not welcomed by Egyptians. These foreigners were called Habiru and encountered humiliation of the type familiar to immigrants in our own day. On the basis, that my enemy’s enemy is my friend, the Habiru made common cause with the monotheists of Aton and joined Musa in their rebellion against the Pharaoh Ramses. So, when Moses took the Atonists out of Egypt, the Haburis went along with them to the land of Canaan where they were or soon became the majority. Haburis got transformed into Hebrews.

So, it was a handful of Haburis who came away from Egypt but the mytho-history of Jews converted it all into their own version of Exodus and put the story in the scriptures. Quran took it up from there.

The conclusion is that there were no Hebrews in Egypt at the time exodus but some immigrants from Canaan who probably were not Jews in the sense that they were followers of Nabi Yaqub (Israel).

People will ask me for references for the above. I decline because it will mean buying books from amazon.com. You may get snippets on the web, though.

Here is something interesting. In the Quran, whenever the followers of Musa (as) are referred, they are never addressed as "yahud" (jews), but always as bani israel or people of the book. Only when referred to in the context of prophet Muhammad's (saw) time are they referred to as "yahud".

As far as prophet Idris is concerned, Allah says about prophets in general in Quran

Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.

The kings that created the pyramids, according to the History channel, were anything but humble. Infact they represented the following referred to in the Quran

019.059
YUSUFALI: But after them there followed a posterity who missed prayers and followed after lusts soon, then, will they face Destruction,-
PICKTHAL: Now there hath succeeded them a later generation whom have ruined worship and have followed lusts. But they will meet deception.
SHAKIR: But there came after them an evil generation, who neglected prayers and followed and sensual desires, so they win meet perdition,

These kings who built the pyramids were just following their lusts. If one cares to watch the history channel, one would know of the hardships that were faced by those labourers who actually built the pyramids. I cannot believe that a prophet of Allah could cause so much misery.

First level ....Man sins and is redeemed.

002.051
YUSUFALI: And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.
PICKTHAL: And when We did appoint for Moses forty nights (of solitude), and then ye chose the calf, when he had gone from you, and were wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: And when We appointed a time of forty nights with Musa, then you took the calf (for a god) after him and you were unjust.

002.052
YUSUFALI: Even then We did forgive you; there was a chance for you to be grateful.
PICKTHAL: Then, even after that, We pardoned you in order that ye might give thanks.
SHAKIR: Then We pardoned you after that so that you might give thanks.

002.058
YUSUFALI: And remember We said: "Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good."
PICKTHAL: And when We said: Go into this township and eat freely of that which is therein, and enter the gate prostrate, and say: "Repentance." We will forgive you your sins and will increase (reward) for the right-doers.
SHAKIR: And when We said: Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish, and enter the gate making obeisance, and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you your wrongs and give more to those who do good (to others).

003.016
YUSUFALI: (Namely), those who say: "Our Lord! we have indeed believed: forgive us, then, our sins, and save us from the agony of the Fire;"-
PICKTHAL: Those who say: Our Lord! Lo! we believe. So forgive us our sins and guard us from the punishment of Fire;
SHAKIR: Those who say: Our Lord! surely we believe, therefore forgive us our faults and save us from the chastisement of the fire.

003.017
YUSUFALI: Those who show patience, Firmness and self-control; who are true (in word and deed); who worship devoutly; who spend (in the way of Allah); and who pray for forgiveness in the early hours of the morning.
PICKTHAL: The steadfast, and the truthful, and the obedient, those who spend (and hoard not), those who pray for pardon in the watches of the night.
SHAKIR: The patient, and the truthful, and the obedient, and those who spend (benevolently) and those who ask forgiveness in the morning times.

And many many more such example are there in the Quran about man sinning and then being forgiven by Allah because he prayed for forgiveness. I am not sure why Taawil is needed to realize that? In Surah Yusuf there is the story of how his brother threw him into the well and were later on forgiven.

From the web - wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

Habiru and the Hebrews

When the Amarna letters were translated, some scholars equated these Apiru with the Biblical Hebrews (Hebrew: עברים or עבריים, ʿIvrim, ʿIvriyyim). Besides the similarity of their spellings, the description of the Apiru attacking cities in Canaan seems to fit the Biblical account of the conquest of that land by Israelites under Joshua.

The photographs from the 1904 Breasted Expedition to Egypt, especially those of the battle of Kadesh incribed at Abu Simbel provide one of the first recorded mentions of the ha ibr u[9] in the context of an army that messengers rushed to fetch to the battle.

Scholarly opinion remains divided on this issue. Some scholars argue that the Hapiru were a component of the later peoples who inhabited the kingdoms ruled by Saul, David, Solomon and their successors in Judah and Israel. Rainey argues that Hapiru is a generic term for bandits, not attached to a specific population. He proposes that, in the Amarna letters, Hebrews are referred as Shasu.[10]

So in conclusion, there is a difference of opinion in whether the habiru became the hebrews. Is there a reason to prefer one opinion over another? There is a big reason. Freedom from believing in the Quran to be the word of Allah.

I now firmly believe that the primary goal of Ismaili Metaphysics is to install the worship of Imam instead of the worship of Allah. The goal of these metaphysicists is to explain away every miracle in the Quran with the help of some earthly explanation. Like the splitting of the red sea will probably be explained as some kind of diversion of the sea because of some rock formation that existed somewhere.

anajmi wrote: I now firmly believe that the primary goal of Ismaili Metaphysics is to install the worship of Imam instead of the worship of Allah. The goal of these metaphysicists is to explain away every miracle in the Quran with the help of some earthly explanation. Like the splitting of the red sea will probably be explained as some kind of diversion of the sea because of some rock formation that existed somewhere.

Hey, scholastic moron!

In your zeal for oneupmanship, you did not read my explanation about the myth of the Jews in Egypt. The question I was addressing was how the Jews came to be in Egypt during the time of Ramses. My answer is in three levels. Only the first level deals with Ismaili Taawil. There is no mention of Habiru in there at all.

Level 2 is about legends and level 3 is about archeological findings.

In fact, Ismaili metaphysicists were devout Muslims who would be aghast at being called challengers to the Quran. For them, Quran ranked above Imam. For them, Imam is an elucidator of the Quran.

Why don't you stick to posting the Yusufali translations?

I am not sure if you missed my sarcasm or are willfully ignoring it. When I spoke about Ismaili Metaphysicists I was referring only to you and to no one else!!

I have given my responses for your level 1 and level 3. Although that should be sufficient, I will try and get into level 2 as well. Although I have touched upon why Idris couldn't have been the pharoah who built the pyramids.

anajmi wrote: When I spoke about Ismaili Metaphysicists I was referring only to you and to no one else!!

I will take that as a compliment.

I would rather be a physicist though. My feet are firmly planted within modern science.

And what gave you the idea that Idris was a Pharaoh? Did he usurp Akhenaton's throne?

What is light?

Light as Knowledge and Darkness as Ignorance is such a hackneyed metaphor that, these days, only the hot gospellers use them to impress their ignorant followers. For taawil to be worthy of its name, a deeper explanation of light must be sought.

Fundamentally, light is light because of its effect on the material universe. Humans can only sense a small portion of the spectrum of electromagnetic radiation through their eyes. But the fact is that all matter above absolute zero radiates light. You may not be able to see an apple in the dark but you can if you had an infra-red device.

Light (in fact, all radiation) is the result of electron transitions in atoms. Because human retina is affected by visible light which generates chemical signals reaching brain through the nervous system which humans ‘name’ light. Darkness would be absence of radiation. But, in fact, there is no darkness in the universe at all. Dark Matter is everywhere. It may be God!!

A well-known property of light is that it has a constant speed regardless of whether the observer is stationary or moving. This has implications which were worked out by Einstein more than a century ago. It is tied with the ideas of space and time which have been dethroned as absolutes of universe.I think Einstein worked out more taawil about light than dozens of metaphysicists of the old.

Getting back to Ismaili taawil regarding light, I will refer you to an excellent naseehat by Shaikh Sadiq Ali. It is in lisan-e-daawat and first lines are as follows:

“aank thi tanha na kai ae dosto dekhai chhe
noor suraj-nu magar humraah jiware thai chhe
ya ke chandarmo ya deewo raat ma mukaai chhe
tyare aankho thaki apni je dekho jaai chhe
jo agar suraj ya chandarmo ya deewo hoye nahi.n
aankh chhe pan aankh thi har chand dekhe koi nahi.n”

"aankh ma jo noor chhe teh noor ma nuqsaan chhe
aankh thi tyare nathi kai dekhwoo imkaan chhe
jo tu andhara ma bethe aandhlo insaan chhe
chand suraj ne deewa thi dekhto haraan chhe
yeh ishara chhe agar samjho to baatin waat par
yeh samjhwoo noor chhe taari andhari zaat par"

He than details some baatin. Read it up.

Something to think about!

anajmi wrote: I now firmly believe that the primary goal of Ismaili Metaphysics is to install the worship of Imam instead of the worship of Allah.

anajmi wrote: When I spoke about Ismaili Metaphysicists I was referring only to you and to no one else!

So, according to our scholar, I am the Ismaili Metaphyscist who wants to install the worship of Imam!!

This 'metaphysicist' rails against sajda to humans and does not even think that the Fatimid Imams were infallible as believed by Ismailies and Bohras!! Doesn't that take the cake??

This 'metaphysicist' rails against sajda to humans and does not even think that the Fatimid Imams were infallible as believed by Ismailies and Bohras!! Doesn't that take the cake??

Yes it does, because you never talk about what you yourself believe on this board right? You only talk about what others believe. It does take the cake. You might fool the others but not me. We cannot believe what you say about your own beliefs. We need to figure out the taawil behind what you say are your beliefs.

Allah says in the Quran

002.018
YUSUFALI: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).
PICKTHAL: Deaf, dumb and blind; and they return not.
SHAKIR: Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back.

What is the taawil behind "blind"? In order to understand the taawil behind blind, we have to look at how the eyes work.

Eyes are organs that detect light, and convert it to electro-chemical impulses in neurons. The simplest photoreceptors in conscious vision connect light to movement. In higher organisms the eye is a complex optical system which collects light from the surrounding environment; regulates its intensity through a diaphragm; focuses it through an adjustable assembly of lenses to form an image; converts this image into a set of electrical signals; and transmits these signals to the brain, through complex neural pathways that connect the eye, via the optic nerve, to the visual cortex and other areas of the brain. Eyes with resolving power have come in ten fundamentally different forms, and 96% of animal species possess a complex optical system.[1] Image-resolving eyes are present in molluscs, chordates and arthropods.[2]

The simplest "eyes", such as those in microorganisms, do nothing but detect whether the surroundings are light or dark, which is sufficient for the entrainment of circadian rhythms. From more complex eyes, retinal photosensitive ganglion cells send signals along the retinohypothalamic tract to the suprachiasmatic nuclei to effect circadian adjustment.

Complex eyes can distinguish shapes and colors. The visual fields of many organisms, especially predators, involve large areas of binocular vision to improve depth perception; in other organisms, eyes are located so as to maximize the field of view, such as in rabbits and horses, which have monocular vision.

What is the taawil behind "deaf"? In order to understand the taawil behind deaf, we have to look at how the ears work.

The ear is the anatomical organ that detects sound. It not only acts as a receiver for sound, but also plays a major role in the sense of balance and body position. The ear is part of the auditory system.

The word "ear" may be used correctly to describe the entire organ or just the visible portion. In most mammals, the visible ear is a flap of tissue that is also called the pinna and is the first of many steps in hearing. In people, the pinna is often called the auricle. Vertebrates have a pair of ears, placed symmetrically on opposite sides of the head. This arrangement aids in the ability to localize sound sources.

The ear plays a major role in the sense of balance and body position!! Wow!! That sure is some taawil. One who is deaf cannot balance his life between good and evil. How about that crack at taawil?

What is the taawil behind "dumb"? We have to understand how the tongue works and the connection between the brain and the tongue. We also need to take into consideration the taste buds and how active taste buds can lead to heart burn. The taawil behind that is that they are all connected.

I think I am now an expert on taawil!!

Next we will tackle the taawil behind the hands and the feet!!

And what gave you the idea that Idris was a Pharaoh?

n fact, ancient Egyptians believed that the Pyramids at Giza were the tombs of Idris (Hermes Trismegistus) and Seth, the third son of Adam.

Pretty much all historians believe that the pyramids are the tombs of the pharoahs. So from what you are saying it can be concluded that since the pyramid is a tomb of idris, idris was a pharoah. Unless you are talking in taawili?

Mubarak wrote:

anajmi wrote:When Mubarak, disrespectfully, says "your Aisha", he forgets that Hazrat Aisha was married to prophet Muhammad (saw). So she was Prophet Muhammad's Aisha. So he is correct when he says your Aisha as we are one with the prophet. Prophet's Aisha becomes our Aisha and Mubarak is left with a hidden Imam and a corrupt Dai!!

Anajmi, in your Sunni/Wahabi arena, you are suppose to stand by the caliph of time and zihad/fight with those who fight against your caliph.

In war of Jamal (camel), Aaisha is against Mola Ali (a.s.): whom will you fight against: Aaisha or Mola Ali ?

Anajmi, reply awaited?

Khalifas were humans and prone to mistakes, just like everyone else. No one was superhuman like the shias believe. I would have to see if the fight was worth fighting for and if it was being fought for the sake of Allah or for personal reasons. If I was a paid soldier, then I would probably be fighting in the army of my employer.

Unfortunately for the people who lived and fought in that war, they had to pick a side. We, on the other hand, have the luxury to not pick sides. And some of us are even smart enough not to do that.

porus wrote:
I will answer this question on three different levels.

First level concerns the story of Exodus as it is related in the Bible and the Quran. This is the level of faith and, for me, it is a myth adopted by the scriptures to relate a perennial theme of Good versus Evil. From the point of view of Taawil, it retraces the story of Adam and Shaytan as the latter played out in aalam al-ibda. Briefly, Shaytan’s arrogance and jealousy is played out for the first time on earth by Shaytan convincing Qabil that he was more deserving to be the wasi of Adam and to whom the gift of Taawil should have been presented. Qabil’s guilt at slaying his brother and Allah’s mercy in forgiving Adam become prototypes of human behavior. Man sins and is redeemed.

there are some factual anomalies in the long but an excellent post and i will like to point them out.

First and foremost Shaytan swaying Adam in Alamul Ibda(though word Adam is not used for the one we are talking about)
the Habil and Qabil incident you have talked about is much later to the one where Adam is asked to leave Heaven(from Tawil you will understand the time line of things)
And Man sins and is redeemed only if he does Istighfar

Musa and the Pharaoh recreate the heavenly drama on earth, this time with Imamat triumphant. While Bible gives a lot of information about the Hebrews, Quran is silent on how they came to be in Egypt.

In every Prophets time this whole episode is played and not Just Musa's time. and for Quran's silence on Hebrews coming to Egypt then might be it was not that important, but as old testament talks about these things so bible goes in detail.

Second level is the story of legend. It starts with the legend of Hermes Trismegistus, who was a hanif, a monotheist and teacher of Akhenaten, who was actually the Pharaoh Amenhotep IV. The latter founded the sacred city of Aton. And the cult of monotheism was called the cult of Aton.

Now, here it gets interesting Hermes Trismegistus was none other than Prophet Idris. In fact, ancient Egyptians believed that the Pyramids at Giza were the tombs of Idris (Hermes Trismegistus) and Seth, the third son of Adam. Seth was adopted as an object of veneration by Egyptian Platonist Gnostics. The legend survived the arrival of Islam in Egypt and one, Muhammad Sa’im al-Dahr, an extremist, destroyed the nose of the Sphinx when he witnessed the locals offering sacrifices to it and the Pyramids.

The legend has it that Musa was actually a high priest of Aton and follower of Idris, like Akhenaten. When the latter died, Egyptians reverted to polytheism and started atrocities on the followers of the Aton cult. And Musa appears to have negotiated their exodus.

these legends can be true but as i have not read any such thing so cant comment and will wait for the time till you find it suitable to reveal the source of this info

The third level is based on the discoveries of archeologists and anthropologists and gives a plausible answer to how the myth of Jews and their leader Musa was created. Akhenaten’s father the Pharaoh Amenhotep III had conquered and subdued the people of Canaan. Some of these Canaanites had come to Egypt seeking greener pastures but were not welcomed by Egyptians. These foreigners were called Habiru and encountered humiliation of the type familiar to immigrants in our own day. On the basis, that my enemy’s enemy is my friend, the Habiru made common cause with the monotheists of Aton and joined Musa in their rebellion against the Pharaoh Ramses. So, when Moses took the Atonists out of Egypt, the Haburis went along with them to the land of Canaan where they were or soon became the majority. Haburis got transformed into Hebrews.

So, it was a handful of Haburis who came away from Egypt but the mytho-history of Jews converted it all into their own version of Exodus and put the story in the scriptures. Quran took it up from there.

The conclusion is that there were no Hebrews in Egypt at the time exodus but some immigrants from Canaan who probably were not Jews in the sense that they were followers of Nabi Yaqub (Israel).

People will ask me for references for the above. I decline because it will mean buying books from amazon.com. You may get snippets on the web, though.

If hebrews were a handful of people who came to Egypt then who were the ones who were working as slaves for Pharoa

aqs wrote: there are some factual anomalies in the long but an excellent post and i will like to point them out.

First and foremost Shaytan swaying Adam in Alamul Ibda(though word Adam is not used for the one we are talking about)
the Habil and Qabil incident you have talked about is much later to the one where Adam is asked to leave Heaven(from Tawil you will understand the time line of things)
And Man sins and is redeemed only if he does Istighfar

Yes, Habil/Qabil incident occurred on earth. As far as I know, Habil/Qabil incident is not part of what happened in alam al-ibdaa. The taawil of what happened between Shaytan and Adam, referred to as Ruhaani Adam, in alam al-ibdaa is fascinating and, inshallah, I intend to post some of my thoughts here after I have had the time to compose them.

aqs wrote: If hebrews were a handful of people who came to Egypt then who were the ones who were working as slaves for Pharoa

That Hebrew slaves built the Pyramids is a biblical myth. Musa was a leader of Atonist monotheist cult. He was driven out of Egypt by Egyptians along with his cult members. He, along with Haburis, ended up in Canaan. There, Hebrews adopted Musa as their hero and transformed him into a Prince of Egypt, famously discovered by the Egyptian Queen floating in the Nile. (You have seen the movie Ten Commandments, haven't you?)

First reference to Moses is in the writings of a Jewish historian Josephus, who, around 100 AD, penned the Hebrew myth about Moses and Jewish slaves in Egypt as factual history. There is no mention of Moses or Jewish slaves in ancient Egyptian records. As a prince, he should have been mentioned. (In a scene from the Ten Commandments, the Pharaoh orders that all references to Moses be stricken off from records!)

Archeological evidence points to the whole Egyptian population involved in the building of Pyramids. Not slaves. Did Egyptians have slaves? Likely, but they were not Jews.

Read this scholarly article.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who- ... e-pyramids

@Porus,

I presume that you have read the tawil of things and according to me this is one of the most fascinating one

As a Muslim i believe Musa to be a prophet but what general stories are preached about him being found in the water, his asa becoming a snake, the golden calf, parting nile and others have a tawil behind them and its not necessary that they happened in real life so i agree to few of the points raised in your post

I agree that this whole slave business is a hogwash created by jews just to gain sympathy as a prosecuted class for thousands of years.

I have downloaded this from Net to show the founders of Ismaili sect were no ordinary persons:-
Imam Ja’far ibn Muhammad al-Sādiq
He was a polymath: an astronomer, alchemist, Imam, Islamic scholar, Islamic theologian, writer, philosopher, physician, physicist and scientist. He was also the teacher of the famous chemist, Jābir ibn Hayyān (Geber) and a contemporary of Abū Ḥanīfa, founder of the Hanafi school of Sunni jurisprudence. In the Shia hadith text Kitab Al-Kafi, Abu Abdallah (Imam Jafar) states that Sa‘id ibn al-Musayyib was of the trusted and reliable companions of Imam Zayn al-Abidin, Ali bin Husain. Sa‘id ibn al-Musayyib married the daughter of Abu Hurayrah in order to be closer to him and to learn better the Traditions that he narrated.
As a child, Ja'far Al-Sadiq studied under his grandfather, Zayn al-Abidin. After his grandfather's death, he studied under and accompanied his father, Muhammad al-Baqir, until Muhammad al-Baqir died in 733.
Ja'far Al-Sadiq became well versed in Islamic sciences, including Hadith, Sunnah, and the Qur'an. In addition to his knowledge of Islamic sciences, Ja'far Al-Sadiq was also an adept in natural sciences, mathematics, philosophy, astronomy, anatomy, alchemy and other subjects.
The foremost Islamic alchemist, Abu Musa Jabir ibn Hayyan, known in Europe as Geber, was Ja'far Al-Sadiq's most prominent student. Ja'far Al-Sadiq was known for his liberal views on learning, and was keen to have discourse with Scholars of other views.
Abū Ḥanīfa was an Islamic scholar and Jurist. He was a student of Ja'far Al-Sadiq, as was Imam Malik ibn Anas, who quotes 12 hadiths from Imam Jafar Sadiq in his famous Al-Muwatta.
• Scholars believed to have learned extensively from Ja'far Al-Sadiq:
1. Jābir ibn Hayyān - known in Europe as Geber, a great alchemist.
2. Musa al-Kadhim - his son, the seventh Shi’ah Imam according to the Twelvers
3. Isma'il ibn Jafar - his son according to both the Ithnā‘ashariyyah (Twelvers) and the Ismailis, but the seventh Shi'ah Imam only according to the Ismailis.
4. Ali al-Uraidhi ibn Ja'far al-Sadiq- his youngest son.
• Sunni scholars who either attended Ja'far Al-Sadiq's lectures or learnt from him:
1. Abū Ḥanīfa - founder of the Hanafi school of thought.
2. Malik ibn Anas - founder of the Maliki school of thought.
• Others that attended lectures by Ja'far Al-Sadiq:
1. Wasil ibn Ata - founder of the Mu'tazili school of thought.
Jurisprudence
Ja'far al-Sadiq developed Ja'fari jurisprudence at about the same time its Sunni legal fiqh counterparts were being codified. It was distinguished from Sunni law "on matters regarding inheritance, religious taxes, commerce, and personal status."
Ja'far Al-Sadiq's prudent silence on his true views is said to have established Taqiyya as a Shi'a doctrine. Taqiyya says that it is acceptable to hide one's true opinions if by revealing them, one put oneself or others in danger.

The new Abbasid rulers, who had risen to power on the basis of their claim to descent from Muhammad's uncle ‘Abbas ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib, were extremely suspicious of Ja'far, whom many considered to have a better claim to the caliphate. Ja'far was watched closely and, occasionally, imprisoned to cut his ties with his followers. Ja'far endured the persecution patiently and continued his study and writing wherever he found himself.
He died on 14 December, 765. He was poisoned by Al-Mansur. He is buried in Medina, in the famous Jannatul Baqee' cemetery.

Porus quoted,
In Arabic, it is the verb ﺚﻌﺒﻧﺇ Participle is ﺚﻌﺒﻨﻣ The words are inba'atha and
munba'ith, pronounced
imba'atha and mumba'ith.
You will sometimes hear your
Aamil involking waseela of al-
mumba'ith. This is equated to al-aql al-awwal.



@Porus

Porus Mumba'ith Awvval is Second Emanation ie Aqle Sani, Lavhe Mahfuz,Universal Soul.

murtaza2152 wrote:
Porus Mumba'ith Awvval is Second Emanation ie Aqle Sani, Lavhe Mahfuz,Universal Soul.

Ideas in Bohra medieval Haqaiq literature are a virtual dog's dinner. It is an admixture of 3 strands:

al-Sijistani's metaphysics
al-Kirmani's metaphysics
Metaphysics of Rasa'il Ikwan as-safa

Sijistani says that God (al-Mubdi) originated intellect (aql) through divine command (amr) kun. Thus aql is al-awwal or mubda al-awwal. Aql emanated Universal soul (nafs kulli), which is thani.

Kirmani developed this idea into a hierarchy of ten aql. Thus aql is not just awwal, but aql awwal. I believe that Kirmani's aql awwal was not an emanation, hence not mumba'ith. The first emanation proceeded from aql awwal to become aql thani. Hence the second intellect is actually the first emanation, al mumba'ith al-awwal.

So, contrary to what you wrote, aql thani is first emanation.

Bohras accept al-Kirmani's rendering rather than al-Sijistani's. Ikhwan became important during the later part of the Yamani Dawat when the 19th Dai identified Imam Ahmad al-Mastur as the author of Rasail Ikhwan as-safa. (Scholars dispute this claim).

Identification of certain Quranic terms with emanations (mumba'ith) was done by Sijistani. Aql is Quranic pen (qalam) and soul is just lawh, not Quranic Lawh-e-Mahfuz, which refers to Quran itself.

Finally, please don't hang on to these concepts. They are archaic and have no value to anyone in the 21st century. We do not now go to religious people to understand cosmology and cosmogony. We go to astronomers and astrophysicists. I suggest you read Stephen Hawking's popular books for the origin of Universe and popular accounts of the modern Theory of Evolution for the origin of man. And consider all this haqaiq business as amusing recreation with no relevance to modern life.

Thankyou for Advice!!

Both Authors say God Originated Aql Not Emanated,
And From that Aql Emanate Aql Thani ie First Emanation,nafs kulli,

So how would you define Emanation and Origination and diff btwn them,if you can,,,, give example!


In which sense you were telling Al Mumba'ith as Aql Avval??

God originates by his command (amr). The first creation, al-awwal, is aql or intellect. Sijistani calls it al-awwal because from intellect emanates nafs (soul), which is al-thani, the second.

al-Kirmani calls both intellect and nafs as aql, distinguishing them as aql awwal and aql thani.

Origin is from God who creates out of nothing (ex-nihilo) simply by saying "Be" or in Arabic "Kun".

The rest of the intellects, al-uqul, follow through emanations. Emanation is simple. It is what comes out or oozes out and is akin to a process of diffusion. If you light a fire, light will emanate from it. If you go near a rose, you will experience its aroma emanating from it and so on.

To clarify, let me distinguish between the two arabic words munba'Ith and munba'Ath. The first one is active participle and refers to God and second is passive participle and refers to creation. Thus, al aql is al-munba'Ath al-awwal.

Porus quoted,
To clarify, let me distinguish
between the two arabic
words munb a'Ith and munba'Ath . The first one is active participle and refers to
God and second is passive
participle and refers to
creation. Thus, al aql is al-
munba'Ath al-awwal.

I didnt understand it,Can you Elaborate the words meanings?


Bayan of Falling Archangels,Pleroma of Drama in Heaven Ibda ie Third Aql,Roohani Adam came to 10 from third which Syedna tus often quotes in his bayaan, it was brought by Which Saheb??,
This is not found in Writings of Al Sijistani and Al Kirmani ,Al Moayyad at best of my knoledge .(i may be wrong)
I think it was brought by Doats ra like Al Hamidi in his highly esoteric work , Kanzul Walad and by Syedna Idris in Zahral Maani.
Whats your views on it??Give Reference?

murtaza2152 wrote:
Bayan of Falling Archangels,Pleroma of Drama in Heaven Ibda ie Third Aql,Roohani Adam came to 10 from third which Syedna tus often quotes in his bayaan, it was brought by Which Saheb??,
This is not found in Writings of Al Sijistani and Al Kirmani ,Al Moayyad at best of my knoledge .(i may be wrong)
I think it was brought by Doats ra like Al Hamidi in his highly esoteric work , Kanzul Walad and by Syedna Idris in Zahral Maani.
Whats your views on it??Give Reference?

It is good that you have done some reading about Roohani Adam and so on. As you correctlly stated the 'Drama in Heaven' before the fall of Adam was dreamt up by the 8th Dai al-Hamidi. This is what I would consider taawil. Instead of me elaborating on this issue, I would refer you to Chapter 5 of Farhad Daftary's "The Ismailies". The chapter, called 'Mustalian Ismailism' describes this 'drama in heaven' in some detail. You will also read a very scholarly history of Dawoodi Bohras free from sabak's agenda to inculcate servitude.

The long chapter includes detail of how Bohras split into Dawoodis, Sulaymanis, Jaafaris, Alaawi (Aaliyas), Naghoshiyas etc. All splits boil down to feuds within Dai's families about succession claims. This is not new. It occured during Imam's times too. They were all familiy disputes.

Please read the book. I would add that your faith in Allah should be based only on Quran. You should consider taawil as explanations about personal spiritual development and reject any idea that suggests servitude to a human.

porus wrote: Finally, please don't hang on to these concepts. They are archaic and have no value to anyone in the 21st century. We do not now go to religious people to understand cosmology and cosmogony. We go to astronomers and astrophysicists. I suggest you read Stephen Hawking's popular books for the origin of Universe and popular accounts of the modern Theory of Evolution for the origin of man. And consider all this haqaiq business as amusing recreation with no relevance to modern life.

So that is where you get your ideas from. That dribble which is not worth wiping one's ass with. No wonder you regurgitate such shit.