Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:18 am**

badrijanab bhai,

You failed to answer my question. If the cycle of the moon is fixed, why the need to adjust zilhajj? (by the way, the cycle of the moon is fixed, your calendar is not, that is why the need to adjust zilhajj)

And what does Mola Ali say?

He [also] said, 'Do not eat [but observe the fast] until thirty days have been completed since your sighting of the crescent moon, or the testimony of two witnesses who have sighted it.'

Sighted what? Sighted the moon. For the beginning of the month of ramadan? No, for the beginning of the month of sawwal (or the end of the month of Ramadan). He already mentioned about the beginning of Ramadan earlier. And if you look at the position of the comma (in the translation, do not know what the actual Arabic grammar is) it is clear that the final sighting is for the completion of fasts and not for the beginning.

A fixed calendar was created by Imam Jaffar Sadik because there were no credible witnesses in his maslaq and you keep proving that again and again.

Sorry badrijanab bhai, but as I have stated earlier, and you have concurred, the prophet (saw) did not create a calendar. He advised observing the moon, for the beginning of the month. The beginning of a month, is also the end of the previous month. In case of Ramadan, those with diminished capabilities are required to follow a calendar, which may be in error at times as seen by the need to adjust zilhajj. Those who follow the sighting of the moon are never wrong (except in some cases). As the new moon is seen over a couple of different days throughout the world. And sometimes the new moon is seen in 29 days and sometimes in 30 days.

By the way, Google's lunar calendar is far more "fixed" than the badri misri calendar. And in that truly fixed calendar, the month of Ramadan is sometimes 29 and sometimes 30. And there is no need to manipulate months as in the badri calendar.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:33 am**

By the way, you can ignore my previous posts and just answer one question. Do the bohras look for the moon to begin the month of Ramadan as ordered by Mola Ali? This is the ultimate trick question. Whether you answer "Yes" or "No" you will prove yourself to be a liar. Best to dodge or follow the path of your pal and keep silent.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:50 am**

Infact, if you bear with me for another post, I will prove to you that the badri bohras have never fasted 30 days in the month of Ramadan since the introduction of the misri calendar. If we look at Daimul Islam, what are the orders of Mola Ali?

[Ali]: He said, 'When you see the new moon, or two credible witnesses have sighted it during the day, then do not eat till the sun sets, whether [the crescent is seen] in the early part of the day or later.' He [also] said, ' Do not eat [but observe the fast] until thirty days have been completed since your sighting of the crescent moon, or the testimony of two witnesses who have sighted it.'

Even if we agree with badrijanab bhai that the sighting of the moon is only for the beginning of the month and the number of fasts has to be 30, since the introduction of the "fixed" calendar, badrijanab has stopped looking for the moon. Infact the badri month of Ramadan is always, without fail, a day or two earlier than the new moon can be sighted anywhere in the world. So if you subtract those 1 or 2 days, the badri month of Ramadan has always been either 28 or 29 days. Never ever ever 30!!

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:51 am**

anajmi wrote: You failed to answer my question. If the cycle of the moon is fixed, why the need to adjust zilhajj? (by the way, the cycle of the moon is fixed, your calendar is not, that is why the need to adjust zilhajj)

Answer: The sun and moon moves in CYCLICAL fashion - ledger that records its "FIX CYCLICAL" moves is called Misri calendar. Unlike Sunni's, WAHABI and Ithna Asheri who discretionary decide their number of days for Ramdaan, THE ADJUSTMENT IN ZILHIJ IN MISRI CALENDAR IS NOT DISCRETIONARY BUT BASED ON FIX RULES PER THE FIX MOVE OF MOON. The adjustment is CYCLICAL, ORDERLY AND FIX, and known in advance for infinity time ahead and likewise can be projected back. SO THE ADJUSTMENT TOO IS FIX AND NOT RANDOM. Same like Solar Calendar, where every four years a day is always added and referred as "Leap Year". Their is no randomness in Misri calendar. Only non-Bohras have un-fix calendar in contrary to dictates of Quran. Only Bohra maslaq is in complete compliance with Quran.

anajmi wrote: And what does Mola Ali say?

He [also] said, 'Do not eat [but observe the fast] until thirty days have been completed since your sighting of the crescent moon, or the testimony of two witnesses who have sighted it.'

In the Library Section of this website, go to book Daimul Islam, the translation from Arabic to Urdu is done by Shakeeb Mubrakpuri who is credible and trustworthy than the traitor Ismail Poonawala. The Urdu to Hindi translation was done by few able pupil of Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj in Udaipur - both Shakeeb Mubarakpuri and group of pupil have used conjunction "AND" and not "or" marked in red above by traitor Poonawala. Hence per Mola Ali a.s. the number of days in Ramdaan will always be thirty days.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:03 pm**

anajmi wrote:By the way, you can ignore my previous posts and just answer one question. Do the bohras look for the moon to begin the month of Ramadan as ordered by Mola Ali? This is the ultimate trick question. Whether you answer "Yes" or "No" you will prove yourself to be a liar. Best to dodge or follow the path of your pal and keep silent.

PROVE where Mola Ali a.s. has ordered that mumineen have to sight ONLY moon to learn the first day of Ramdaan in particular and for any other months in general? You cannot prove this hence you are lier like your X, Y and Z.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:11 pm**

As I said, dodging was a good idea.

When people are capable of manipulating the words of the great Mola Ali, whom they worship, what is anajmi?

Here is the proof.

[Ali]: He said, 'When you see the new moon, or two credible witnesses have sighted it during the day, then do not eat till the sun sets, whether [the crescent is seen] in the early part of the day or later.' He [also] said, ' Do not eat [but observe the fast] until thirty days have been completed since your sighting of the crescent moon, or the testimony of two witnesses who have sighted it.'

Does he say "follow Moon or Calendar"? or does he only mention the moon and credible witnesses? Conclusion, your maslaq has no credible folks.

Checkmate!!

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:34 pm**

anajmi wrote:As I said, dodging was a good idea.

When people are capable of manipulating the words of the great Mola Ali, whom they worship, what is anajmi?

Here is the proof.

[Ali]: He said, 'When you see the new moon, or two credible witnesses have sighted it during the day, then do not eat till the sun sets, whether [the crescent is seen] in the early part of the day or later.' He [also] said, ' Do not eat [but observe the fast] until thirty days have been completed since your sighting of the crescent moon, or the testimony of two witnesses who have sighted it.'

Does he say "follow Moon or Calendar"? or does he only mention the moon and credible witnesses? Conclusion, your maslaq has no credible folks.

Checkmate!!

Mola Ali a.s. neither says follow only moon nor follow only calendar. But he does indeed categorically commanded: In Ramdaan fast for THIRTY (FIX) number of days. So only Bohra maslaq is Abde Ali and by same extension Abdullah. And all non-Bohras are nafarmabardar of Ali and by extension na-farmabardar of Allah.

All non-Bohras checkmate.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:56 pm**

Actually, Mola Ali categorically says 30 days after the sighting of the moon by two credible witnesses. You start Ramadan before the sighting of the moon. Hence you are a deviant who does not fast 30 days in Ramadan.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:10 pm**

anajmi wrote:Actually, Mola Ali categorically says 30 days after the sighting of the moon by two credible witnesses. You start Ramadan before the sighting of the moon. Hence you are a deviant who does not fast 30 days in Ramadan.

Bohras are indeed sighting the moon via their advocate: "calendar", who never read the crescent incorrectly = looking calendar = CORRECTLY sighting moon.

But non-Bohras Mufti's always dispute with each other over citing of moon, in one south Bombay they celebrate Eid and in North Bombay they observe fast!

As you said, Mola Ali a.s. categorically said: fast for 30 days in Ramdan - only we comply with it. Non-Bohras do not!

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:28 pm**

Bohras are indeed sighting the moon via their advocate: "calendar",

Sorry badrijanab bhai. Your fake maslaq has been exposed. If you present this argument to Mola Ali on the day of judgment, he will most likely start pulling his hair out!!

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:39 pm**

1. 13:2
2. 36:40
3. 30:25
4. 31:29
5. 39:5
6. 21:33
7. 55:5
8. 14:33
9. 36:38
10. 36:39
11. 16:12
12. 10:5
13. 6:76, 77 and 78
14. 7:54
15. 35:13

All above Aayat of Quran are the proof that all non-Bohra maslaq are fake and destined to hell as prophecies by Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:33 pm**

Does badrijanab understand the Quran better than the prophet (saw)? No.
Does badrijanab understand the Quran better than Mola Ali (as)? No.
What does the prophet (saw) say? Sight the moon.
What does Mola Ali (as) say? Sight the moon.
What does badrijanab say? Do not sight the moon.

So who is false? badri maslaq or Mohammad and Ali maslaq? badri maslaq!!

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:09 pm**

Interesting point is developing here: Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. was teacher who introduced Islam = kindergarten. Over a time when people will pass the kindergarten progress will be made; a new teacher will come to teach on top of what already was taught in kindergarten by Prophet so Mola Ali a.s. came, then after a period another teacher Imam Hasan a.s. came to add on top of what Mohammed s.a.w.w. and Ali a.s. has already taught...... Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. came to add on top of what already Mohammed, Ali, Hasan, Hussain, Ali Zainul Abideen and Bakir (salwaat on all) have taught.

The nature of schooling is: out of all those are admitted in Kindergarten very few make till matriculation, and all those who passed matriculation few get up to graduation and out of them very few reaches post graduation. Likewise Sunni's got dropped out during Kindergarten, Zaidi got parted out while studying till Imam Hussain a.s., Ithna Asheri got dropped out during studying with Imam Sadik a.s. ...

So Sunni's including their new branches Wahabi/Salafi's were least educated as they dropped out during Kindergarten.

Bohras is the sect that was bestowed with scientific progression of Islam. Bohras do not outrightly reject sighting moon. But the problem with correctly sighting moon is too many, often than seldom Mufti's incorrectly sight moon and make Sunni's and Ithna Asheri to fast on the day of Eid, the very day when fasting is "Haram"! And remember, both these schools do not fulfil the condition of fix period for Ramdaan, as prescribed by Quran.

Bohras bestowed by Allah as their next level teacher Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. taught them the scientific tool of calendar that accurately catches and mirror the moves of moon.

What is the object of sighting moon? To start the Ramdaan on the correct day.

Two ways are there to achieve this object: First, by sighting the moon and second, by scientifically capturing the moon moves in document, as Quran has prescribed the path of moon is fix hence the document mirroring moon will give perfect status of moon.

Out of two ways which is preferred, accurate and easier - sighting moon or looking into Misri calendar? It is self answering question. Of course, using calendar is the easy way, preferred, 100% accurate, in compliance with Quran and give uniformity (as earth have single moon whose path is fixed hence whole world should celebrate Eid on the same day).

Sighting moon - mufti of Bhiwandi do not agree with Mufti of Borivali! One celebrate Eid and other keep fast in Mumbai. Ithna Asheri are sighting moon after one day of Saudi Arabia!!! A common men away from Mufti - cannot determine if to keep fast or not. This mess of non-Bohras is due to their lack of education as they left the AUTHORISED teachers, indeed killed them!

Using Misri calendar makes Bohra maslaq in compliance with Quran which dictates that number of days in month are fixed and cannot be random. Non-Bohras are all in breach of this command of Quran dictated by 18-20 aayats of Quran.

Posted: **Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:53 pm**

badrijanab bhai,

2+2 remains = 4 whether you are in kindergarten or in MIT doing PhD in Rocket Science in normal people's maslaq. In badri maslaq, it changes with every class. By the time you get to PhD, 2+2 = 420.

Posted: **Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:47 am**

anajmi wrote:badrijanab bhai,

2+2 remains = 4 whether you are in kindergarten or in MIT doing PhD in Rocket Science in normal people's maslaq. In badri maslaq, it changes with every class. By the time you get to PhD, 2+2 = 420.

Anajmi bhai,

Your post above is your signature to acknowledgement of defeat of your misguided believes and is the proof of falsehood of all those who follow etc, etc and etc.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

All non-Bohras were exposed of their unfix period of Ramdaan which is against the twenty plus verses of Quran. Hence all non-Bohras were proven fake and false in the light of Quran.

Below are traditions from Sunni's own most authentic books of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim -

Sahih Muslim, Book #006, Hadith #2375
"Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with both of them) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The month (of Ramadan) may consist of twenty nine days, and Shu'ba (one of the narrators) (gave a practical demonstration how the Holy prophet (may peace be upon him) explained to them) by unfolding his hands thrice and folding his thumb at the third turn. 'Uqba (one of the narrators in this chain of trans- mitters) said: I think that he said that the month consists of thirty days and unfolded his palm three times. "

[II] Sahih Bukhari, Book# 31, Vol 3, hadith #124 Similar hadith is quoted in hadith #134.
"If the sky is overcast then regard the month of Ramdaan as of 30 days."

=> When in doubt seek safety = observe fasts for 30 days. Twenty plus verses of Quran says that the path of moon is fix, thus the number of days in every cycle (month) has to be fix. It means that the month of Ramdaan has to have thirty days.

[III] Bukhari, Vol 3, book 32, hadith # 232 -
"Prophet said, whoever want to search for night of Qadr should search in the last seven night of Qadr."

Bukhari, Vol 3, book 32, hadith # 234 -
"Aisha said, Prophet said, search for the Qadr in the odd nights of the last ten days of Ramdaan."

=> Above two scenario is only possible if the number of days in Ramdaan is fix. But all non-Bohras have un-fix and uncertain number of days in Ramdaan (sometime 29 and sometime 30). Either Bukhari is speaking lies or actions of followers of etc, etc & etc is misguided.

Summary:
RE: FIX NUMBER OF DAYS FOR RAMDAN - ONLY BOHRA MASLAQ IS IN COMPLIANCE WITH TWENTY PLUS VERSES OF QURAN. ALL NON-BOHRAS ARE IN BREACH AND IN DISOBEDIENCE OF QURAN.

Posted: **Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:28 pm**

Did the prophet (saw) create a calendar? No
Did Ali create a calendar? No
Did Hassan create a calendar? No
Did Hussain create a calendar? No
Do you understand the Quran better than them? Definitely No
Did they start and end fasts while looking for the moon? Yes
Does Daimul Islam advise looking for the moon and the testimony of two reliable witnesses? Yes

Imam Jaffar Sadik created the calendar not because he understood the Quran better, but because his maslaq was filled with unreliable people like yourself.

Thank you very much.

Posted: **Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:12 pm**

Does Quran says cycle of moon is fix and fast for fix number of days in Ramdan? Yes
Will Prophet (saw) go against twenty verses of Quran and will fasts for unfix number of days in Ramdan? No
Does Bohras fast for fix number of days in Ramdan? Yes
Does non-Bohras fast for fix number of days in Ramdan? No
Did Ali, Hasan & Hussain fasts for unfix number of days in Ramdan? No
Do you, 1/2/3 and Mawiya understand the Quran better than them? Definitely No
Did they start and end fasts while looking for the moon? Yes
Does Quran says that cycle of Moon is fix? Yes
So correctly looking at moon will make the Ramdan fasts for permanent fix number of days as moon cycle is fix? Yes
Does Daimul Islam advise looking for the moon and the testimony of two reliable witnesses? Yes
Does Daimul Islam says: number of days in Ramdan will be unfix, sometime 29, sometime 30? No

Imam Jaffar Sadik created the calendar because rightful Islamic knowledge is progressing as calendar is derived out of moon which per Quran has fix cycles. All who left the fold of Islam (non-Fatimi Dawat) are not bestowed with the fruits (calendar) of progress and growth of rightful knowledge of Islam. As all humans are not expert enough to correctly cite moon and also sky can overcast/cloudy, etc so calendar gives precise status of moon without citing it (as per Quran the move of moon is fix and pre-determined). So only Bohra maslaq have fix number of days in Ramdan in compliance with Quran and all non-Bohras are in disobedience and breach of command of at least twenty verses of Quran as they have uncertain and unfix number of fasting days in Ramdan.

Thank you very much.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:01 pm**

Anajmi bhai,

All non-Bohras were exposed of their unfix period of Ramdaan which is against the twenty plus verses of Quran. Hence all non-Bohras were proven fake and false in the light of Quran.

Below are traditions from Sunni's own most authentic books of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim -

Sahih Muslim, Book #006, Hadith #2375
"Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with both of them) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The month (of Ramadan) may consist of twenty nine days, and Shu'ba (one of the narrators) (gave a practical demonstration how the Holy prophet (may peace be upon him) explained to them) by unfolding his hands thrice and folding his thumb at the third turn. 'Uqba (one of the narrators in this chain of trans- mitters) said: I think that he said that the month consists of thirty days and unfolded his palm three times. "

[II] Sahih Bukhari, Book# 31, Vol 3, hadith #124 Similar hadith is quoted in hadith #134.
"If the sky is overcast then regard the month of Ramdaan as of 30 days."

=> When in doubt seek safety = observe fasts for 30 days. Twenty plus verses of Quran says that the path of moon is fix, thus the number of days in every cycle (month) has to be fix. It means that the month of Ramdaan has to have thirty days.

[III] Bukhari, Vol 3, book 32, hadith # 232 -
"Prophet said, whoever want to search for night of Qadr should search in the last seven night of Qadr."

Bukhari, Vol 3, book 32, hadith # 234 -
"Aisha said, Prophet said, search for the Qadr in the odd nights of the last ten days of Ramdaan."

=> Above two scenario is only possible if the number of days in Ramdaan is fix. But all non-Bohras have un-fix and uncertain number of days in Ramdaan (sometime 29 and sometime 30). Either Bukhari is speaking lies or actions of followers of etc, etc & etc is misguided.

Summary:
RE: FIX NUMBER OF DAYS FOR RAMDAN - ONLY BOHRA MASLAQ IS IN COMPLIANCE WITH TWENTY PLUS VERSES OF QURAN. ALL NON-BOHRAS ARE IN BREACH AND IN DISOBEDIENCE OF QURAN.

Icing on cake -

Obviously we Shia have reservation about saying/doing of Hazrat Abu Bakr, we selectively okay and disprove his sayings. BUT all those who follow Hz. Abu Bakr, they consider him as "Siddique Akbar" = person pursuing & practicing highest degree of truth, hence they should morally obey all what Hz. Abu Bakr says especially if it is reported in their #1 hadith book of Sahih Bukhari. Only two books are regarded as 'Sahih' among all the hadith literature by followers of Hazrat Abu Bakr. Sahih of Bukhari is stacked above Sahih of Muslim. I mean to say the 'Sahih Bukhari' is the single most important and reliable book of followers of Hazrat Abu Bakr.

Now we have the single best ingredients for icing our cake: Sahih Bukhari quoting Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. tradition via Hz. Abu Bakr. Wah wah!!!

Sahih Bukhari Volume# 3, Book# 31, and Hadith# 136: Narated By Abu Bakra : The Prophet said, "The two months of 'Id i.e. Ramadan and Dhul-Hijja, do not decrease."

In all sects of 'Aalam-a-Islam' the number of days in any (hijri/lunar) month can only be either 29 or 30. And neither 28 nor 31.

Now, in context of Ramdan, Hazrat Abu Bakr is dictating that Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. said, "do not decrease the month of Ramdan": only two combinations are possible because there can be only 29 number of days or 30.

Scenario I of II) 29 - 1 = 28 = not possible because number of days cannot be 28 in any (hijri) month.

Scenario II of II) 30 - 1 = 29 = a month can have minimum 29 number of days. But month with 29 number of days per Hz. Abu Bakr; reported by Bukhari cannot be Ramdan, as per them Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. has commanded "do not decrease the month of Ramdan". Hence proved, the month of Ramdan always-always without exception can only have 30 number of FIX and permanent days count.

Hazrat Abu Bakr, the "Siddiuqe Akber" (only per Sunni/Wahabi not per Shia Fatimi) and Hazrat Bukhari both are DECLARING that Ramdan must have fix count of 30 number of days = both Hazrat Abu Bakr sahib & Hazrat Bukhari sahib are indeed declaring the only rightful maslaq is Bohras. And all who follow these two are not following these two indeed!!!

Case close.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:48 pm**

both Hazrat Abu Bakr sahib & Hazrat Bukhari sahib are indeed declaring the only rightful maslaq is Bohras.

But according to you, both Abu Bakr and Bukhari are wrong. Hence badri bohra maslaq is wrong.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:49 pm**

anajmi wrote:
both Hazrat Abu Bakr sahib & Hazrat Bukhari sahib are indeed declaring the only rightful maslaq is Bohras.
But according to you, both Abu Bakr and Bukhari are wrong. Hence badri bohra maslaq is wrong.

According to us Shia Fatimi both are wrong, but per Sunni both are right and he speak nothing but truth (Siddique Akbar)!

You and alike inability to counter the facts I presented = defeat of your misguided thought process and defeat of all those who follow etc, etc and etc. Alhamdolillah.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:03 pm**

You haven't presented any facts. Just conjecture and fairy tales.

These are the facts.
The prophet did not follow a fixed calendar. He followed the moon. He did not create a fixed calendar and did not advise people to create one.
Daimul Islam advises on following the moon and the testimony of 2 reliable witnesses.

These are undeniable facts. I am choosing to respond to fewer and fewer of your "facts" because they are getting more and more bizarre and idiotic.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:21 pm**

Intellectually dishonest Anajmi bhai,

Below are traditions from Sunni's own most authentic books of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim -

Sahih Muslim, Book #006, Hadith #2375
"Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with both of them) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The month (of Ramadan) may consist of twenty nine days, and Shu'ba (one of the narrators) (gave a practical demonstration how the Holy prophet (may peace be upon him) explained to them) by unfolding his hands thrice and folding his thumb at the third turn. 'Uqba (one of the narrators in this chain of trans- mitters) said: I think that he said that the month consists of thirty days and unfolded his palm three times. "

[II] Sahih Bukhari, Book# 31, Vol 3, hadith #124 Similar hadith is quoted in hadith #134.
"If the sky is overcast then regard the month of Ramdaan as of 30 days."

=> When in doubt seek safety = observe fasts for 30 days. Twenty plus verses of Quran says that the path of moon is fix, thus the number of days in every cycle (month) has to be fix. It means that the month of Ramdaan has to have thirty days.

[III] Bukhari, Vol 3, book 32, hadith # 232 -
"Prophet said, whoever want to search for night of Qadr should search in the last seven night of Qadr."

Bukhari, Vol 3, book 32, hadith # 234 -
"Aisha said, Prophet said, search for the Qadr in the odd nights of the last ten days of Ramdaan."

=> Above two scenario is only possible if the number of days in Ramdaan is fix. But all non-Bohras have un-fix and uncertain number of days in Ramdaan (sometime 29 and sometime 30). Either Bukhari is speaking lies or actions of followers of etc, etc & etc is misguided.

Summary:
RE: FIX NUMBER OF DAYS FOR RAMDAN - ONLY BOHRA MASLAQ IS IN COMPLIANCE WITH TWENTY PLUS VERSES OF QURAN. ALL NON-BOHRAS ARE IN BREACH AND IN DISOBEDIENCE OF QURAN.

Icing on cake -

Obviously we Shia have reservation about saying/doing of Hazrat Abu Bakr, we selectively okay and disprove his sayings. BUT all those who follow Hz. Abu Bakr, they consider him as "Siddique Akbar" = person pursuing & practicing highest degree of truth, hence they should morally obey all what Hz. Abu Bakr says especially if it is reported in their #1 hadith book of Sahih Bukhari. Only two books are regarded as 'Sahih' among all the hadith literature by followers of Hazrat Abu Bakr. Sahih of Bukhari is stacked above Sahih of Muslim. I mean to say the 'Sahih Bukhari' is the single most important and reliable book of followers of Hazrat Abu Bakr.

Now we have the single best ingredients for icing our cake: Sahih Bukhari quoting Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. tradition via Hz. Abu Bakr. Wah wah!!!

Sahih Bukhari Volume# 3, Book# 31, and Hadith# 136: Narated By Abu Bakra : The Prophet said, "The two months of 'Id i.e. Ramadan and Dhul-Hijja, do not decrease."

In all sects of 'Aalam-a-Islam' the number of days in any (hijri/lunar) month can only be either 29 or 30. And neither 28 nor 31.

Now, in context of Ramdan, Hazrat Abu Bakr is dictating that Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. said, "do not decrease the month of Ramdan": only two combinations are possible because there can be only 29 number of days or 30.

Scenario I of II) 29 - 1 = 28 = not possible because number of days cannot be 28 in any (hijri) month.

Scenario II of II) 30 - 1 = 29 = a month can have minimum 29 number of days. But month with 29 number of days per Hz. Abu Bakr; reported by Bukhari cannot be Ramdan, as per them Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. has commanded "do not decrease the month of Ramdan". Hence proved, the month of Ramdan always-always without exception can only have 30 number of FIX and permanent days count.

Hazrat Abu Bakr, the "Siddiuqe Akber" (only per Sunni/Wahabi not per Shia Fatimi) and Hazrat Bukhari both are DECLARING that Ramdan must have fix count of 30 number of days = both Hazrat Abu Bakr sahib & Hazrat Bukhari sahib are indeed declaring the only rightful maslaq is Bohras. And all who follow these two are not following these two indeed!!!

Case close.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:22 am**

Simple Litmus test
Bohra calender is Lunar (based on moon). So its start has to follow the new moon.
Observe the new moon every month and check if it coincides with the first of Bohra calender. If it matches , the bohra calender is correct and if not just reject it. This is logical and scientific way of proving Bohra calender is right.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:27 am**

cycles are not meant to follow calender

in fact calenders are meant to follow cycles.

if these 30 days thingy was so important, ALLAH would have also revealed one calender with QURAAN it self.

but it didnt happened it means this is all just by products and have no solid importance.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:28 am**

Simple Litmus test
Bohra calender is Lunar (based on moon). So its start has to follow the new moon.
Observe the new moon every month and check if it coincides with the first of Bohra calender. If it matches , the bohra calender is correct and if not just reject it. This is logical and scientific way of proving Bohra calender is right.

That is not a litmus test. That is a surefire failure test.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:53 am**

anajmi wrote: That is not a litmus test. That is a surefire failure test.

I agree. By this test it can easily be proved Bohra calender though it claims to be lunar is not as per Moon cycles. Hence cannot be accepted.

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:13 pm**

Bone of contention = Quran's command = In Ramadan fast for fix number of days.

=> Ithna Asheri, Sunni, etc have un-fix number of fast days in Ramdan = against Quran.

=> Bohras have fix number of days fasting in Ramdan = in line with Quran.

Sighting moon or referring calendar both are okay with Bohra maslaq but intellectually referring calendar is easier than correctly sighting moon, because Quran categorically in fifteen plus verses says that moon path is fix hence ledger can be derived out of it which is called calendar = referring calendar = sighting moon. So sighting moon or referring calendar is non-issue, the bone of contention is observing fix or unfix number of fasting days.

Ithna Asheri citing moon differ with that of Wahabi/Sunni! Now whom to trust Wahabi/Sunni mufti or Ithna Asheri's Ayatullah sighting of moon?! Benchmark Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. formulated calendar with what - Ithna Asheri Ayatulla's or Wahabi/Sunni mufti's (who differ within same city) or with some websites; by the way who guarantee the accuracy of those websites? And does Ithna Asheri and Wahabi/Sunni claim for first day of Ramdan - how many times it coincide with those websites?

Simplest and easiest test is the above bone of contention - benchmark practice of Ithna Asheri, Sunni/Wahabi and Fatimi Dawat against the dictate of Quran. All non-Fatimi maslaq are in severe disobedience of Quran and only Fatimi Dawat is in the complete compliance with Quran. Alhamdolillah.

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:24 pm**

Bohras have fix number of days fasting in Ramdan = in line with Quran.

Actually, since the badri bohras start Ramadan 1 or two days before the true Ramadan, they actually have never fasted a fixed number of days in Ramadan in their entire history. They have fasted for a fixed number of days but that has always been spread across the months of Shaban and Ramadan.

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:32 pm**

anajmi wrote:
Bohras have fix number of days fasting in Ramdan = in line with Quran.
Actually, since the badri bohras start Ramadan 1 or two days before the true Ramadan, they actually have never fasted a fixed number of days in Ramadan in their entire history. They have fasted for a fixed number of days but that has always been spread across the months of Shaban and Ramadan.

Your unproven point above do not negate the fact that Sunni's & Ithna Asheri does un-fix number of fasting in Ramdan which is AGAINST Quran.

Lets assume post above is not wild allegation and you have done at least 25 years of empirical spreadsheet comparing: First & last day of Ramdan per (1) Bohras, (2) Sunni's / Wahabi, (3) Ithna Asheri, and (4) only national Government owned and sponsored websites whose astronomical theorems are in compliance with Quran like earth is in centre of universe and not sun, sun rotates around earth and not otherwise, etc. So please present this spreadsheet for everyone's perusal with references data source. Or is it that you have not attempted any such research and just accuse out of your misguided wrong religious beliefs?

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:45 pm**

No need for the last 25 years. Just go look at the sheet for this year. You started Ramadan one day early. Prove me wrong.

Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?

Re: Ramadan Calculation Method ?